Help filling in gaps with Warblade

[danzibr]

I should start by saying it'll take a bit of time on the reader's part to help me (unless you're really good).

I'll be starting a campaign at level 2 very soon and I want to go Warblade 1-20. I've never played a Warblade before and I'm not sure what's best (I've looked at a few different resources, though). I would like to run (the start of) my build by the playgrounders.

First, I'm going Hellbred for flavor reasons, though I could be persuaded to change my mind. However, I don't want to go something cheesy just for the right stat bonuses (water Orc). If someone knows of a fantastic +1 LA race of template, I'm all ears.

Also, two comments about the below information: first, I wanted to get Karmic Strike but couldn't figure out how to fit it in; second, the only maneuvers I really care about are Pouncing Charge, Time Stands Still and Strike of Perfect Clarity (but out of the last two, which to take first?). I don't plan on getting anything from White Raven. Furthermore, for prereqs I'm aware I need another Diamond Mind maneuver or stance before lvl 7 and one Tiger Claw before then (or roudabout there, depending on the choices). I'm just not sure how to carry this out.

As for fighting style, I'll be using a bit two-hander and doing lots of charging (maybe a little bit of sundering and bullrushing, when appropriate).

Hopefully it's not too unsightly.

level 1:
stats: 16, 14, 16, 14, 8, 8
feats: Devil's Favor (racial), Monkey Grip (lvl 1), Power Attack (Shaky), Improved Bull Rush (Weak Will)
maneuvers: Movement of Perfect Mind (DM), Steely Strike (IH), Sudden Leap (TC)
stance: Hunter's Sense (TC)
level 2:
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM) (maneuver)
level 3:
Mage Slayer (lvl 3), Wall of Blades (IH) (maneuver)
level 4:
+1 Str, Devil's Flesh (racial), Leading the Charge (WR) (stance)
level 5:
Improved Initiative (Warblade feat), White Raven Tactics (1WR) (maneuver)
level 6:
Shock Trooper (lvl 6)
level 7:
Bounding Assault (2DM) (maneuver)
(1TC) (maneuver)
level 8:
+1 Str, Tactics of the Wolf (1WR) (stance)
level 9:
Blind-Fight (Warblade feat), Leap Attack (lvl 9), Pouncing Charge (2TC) (maneuver)
(2TC) (maneuver)
level 10:
nada
level 11:
Dancing Blade Form (2IH) (maneuver)
level 12:
+1 Str, Pierce Magical Concealment (lvl 12), Hearing the Air (2DM) (stance)
level 13:
Quick Draw (Warblade feat), Swooping Dragon Strike (3TC) (maneuver)
level 14:
Devil's Stamina (racial)
level 15:
Pierce Magical Protection (lvl 15), Adamantite Hurricane (3IH) (maneuver)
level 16:
+1 Str, Stance of Alacrity (3DM) (stance)
level 17:
?? (Warblade feat), Strike of Perfect Clarity (4IH) (maneuver)
level 18:
?? (lvl 18)
level 19:
Time Stands Still (4DM) (maneuver)
level 20:
+1 Str

Thanks in advance!

[LordBlades]

First of all, drop Monkey Grip; it's terrible; the damage increase isn't worth -2 to attack, especially on a charger (the difference between 1000 and 1003 damage is negligible);

Secondly, I'd place Leap Attack earlier in the build; ATM you're getting it at a level where damage is pretty much irrelevant.

[Firechanter]

First off, try negotiating with your DM to delay the second stance until 5th level.

I'd definitely take Raging Mongoose, that goes extremely well with Pouncing Charge. ^^

As 3rd Stance, I'd take Dancing Blade Form. Note that those +5ft Reach are also doubled with a Reach weapon. That greatly reduces the risk of getting interrupted on your Charge by an AoO.

[KitTheOdd]

If you are open to a +1LA race and want Monkey Grip, then I would suggest looking at the Goliath from Races of Stone. They have Powerful Build, which is better than Money Grip, as well as some other benefits.

[Kyrinthic]

Its debatably busted, but you dont get a better bang for your buck from a +1 template than half minotaur, and its perfectly suited for the character type you are building. On the other hand, it came from a dragon magazine, and some people see it as kinda cheesy.

-Kyrinthic

[Sacrieur]

Its debatably busted, but you dont get a better bang for your buck from a +1 template than half minotaur, and its perfectly suited for the character type you are building. On the other hand, it came from a dragon magazine, and some people see it as kinda cheesy.

-Kyrinthic

This. Drop monkey grip. Take fullblade. Commence stabby stabbing.

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, crushy slashy crushy again. Stabby isn't as important when the weapon in question is a 10-foot long, 16lb piece of drop-forged pain-bringing. Though I always did want to make a rapier-wielding dapper-looking gentleman character as a charger build. (Jotunbrud + War Hulk for strength shenanigans.)

[Sacrieur]

Well, crushy slashy crushy again. Stabby isn't as important when the weapon in question is a 10-foot long, 16lb piece of drop-forged pain-bringing. Though I always did want to make a rapier-wielding dapper-looking gentleman character as a charger build. (Jotunbrud + War Hulk for strength shenanigans.)

Could always make him have impeccable manners.

[Keld Denar]

Imp Sunder is really only good as a prereq for Combat Brute. Since you aren't taking Combat Brute til 18, I'd swap the position of Leap Attack and Imp Sunder. You'll get a better return from the feat at low levels.

If you are focused on the charger schtick, I'd definitely go with Bounding Assault over RNS or DFA. Bounding Assault is what Spring Attack should have been, and includes the very important "counts as a charge" clause.

I'm surprised you don't have any White Raven. The level 1 stance is AWESOME, especially when you consider that its static damage and thus gets multiplied on a charge. That alone is worthwhile if you don't take anything else. The other X-Leader's Charge maneuvers are pretty slick as well, up to the 9th level one which allows you to bring friends with and daze your foe. Dazed foes can't say no fight back.

All in all, it looks like you are trying to cover slightly too much ground with one build. Focus in a bit and be good at what you do. You'll still have some versatility, but you'll make your primary purpose shine.

[danzibr]

Thanks for the advice all. I'll take everything into consideration and make an edit on the first post before the night is over.

[The Cat Goddess]

When I played a Warblade and got White Raven Tactics, I became everyone's favorite character. :smallbiggrin:

[danzibr]

Hmm, I figured out my problem. Going for too many feats. I want to get Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit and Stormguard Warrior at level 12, and Combat Brute at level 6. That's just not going to happen. Time to go back to the drawing board (so to speak), but now I know to focus my dude on charging (not exclusively, but that'll be what I'm good at).

I think I'm going to entirely ditch the whole Karmic Strike+Robilar's Gambit + Stormguard Warrior trick. That'll open up 7 feats.

[Firechanter]

Do that, but I'd still keep Combat Reflexes and use a Reach weapon. Maybe combine with a trick like Stand Still for some defensive / area control capability.

[Leon]

http://www.selleys.com.au/assets/53/P_SelleysNoMoreGapsMultipurpose_large.jpg

[danzibr]

http://www.selleys.com.au/assets/53/P_SelleysNoMoreGapsMultipurpose_large.jpg

Hmm, I appreciate it but I'm still missing 3 feats at the end...

[herrhauptmann]

Well, crushy slashy crushy again. Stabby isn't as important when the weapon in question is a 10-foot long, 16lb piece of drop-forged pain-bringing. Though I always did want to make a rapier-wielding dapper-looking gentleman character as a charger build. (Jotunbrud + War Hulk for strength shenanigans.)

Jotunbrud doesn't actually let you qualify for warhulk or improve your strength. It just lets you use large size in certain situations: To include: trip, disarm, sunder, grapple, being affected by improved grab and getting eaten.
Jotunbrud != Powerful Build. Plus the OP wants to go Crusader 20, which means no warhulks.

Plus, Jotunbrud is human only. Not sure, but I don't think that a hellbred can take it.

Go half-minotaur for supercheese if your DM allows it to stack with hellbred. I think it adds up to a +12 strength after applying size increases.
I'm wondering, what's your background that you wanted to make a hellbred character?

edit:
I think I know your missing feats. Mageslayer. Pierce Magical Protection. Pierce Magical concealment (you've already got blindfight). Might want to shift a few things around again, so you're taking them before level 15.

[Shyftir]

If you are going Halberd for fluff reasons, you should make a small effort to include Tripping as part of your build. Halberds are designed with it in mind.

[RaggedAngel]

If you are going Halberd for fluff reasons, you should make a small effort to include Tripping as part of your build. Halberds are designed with it in mind.

I...I don't know if this is sarcastic or not.

This is going to bother me until I can figure it out.

[danzibr]

If you are going Halberd for fluff reasons, you should make a small effort to include Tripping as part of your build. Halberds are designed with it in mind.
I...I don't know if this is sarcastic or not.

This is going to bother me until I can figure it out.

Oh I laughed so hard when I read these two.

And herrhauptmann, thanks for the pointers. I'll look into the mage-slaying. In particular, for the most recent revision I really tried to focus on what is crucial to my character and what is not (sadly, Keld Denar had to give me this idea since I'm such a nub at character making). The Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit + Stormguard Warrior is nice but no crucial. However, Leading the Charge + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Pouncing Charge is not (oh man I can't wait to try that out).

I'll try to figure out how to shuffle things around to incorporate the killing of mages.

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, you might want to have a back up plan when you pull out the Shocktrooping Leap Attacker with Leading the Attack and Pouncing Charge. You can EASILY pull over 500 damage with just that with no hit to accuracy. Thats enough to 1-shot all but the tarrasque and the hartiest of dragons. I wouldn't be surprised if your DM came down hard and banned Shocktrooper at least, and possibly Leap Attack, and even possibly all of ToB for pulling something like this off.

Just saying. Wield carefully the power you hold in your hands, for knowledge is a two edged sword.

[LordBlades]

Hmmm, you might want to have a back up plan when you pull out the Shocktrooping Leap Attacker with Leading the Attack and Pouncing Charge. You can EASILY pull over 500 damage with just that with no hit to accuracy. Thats enough to 1-shot all but the tarrasque and the hartiest of dragons. I wouldn't be surprised if your DM came down hard and banned Shocktrooper at least, and possibly Leap Attack, and even possibly all of ToB for pulling something like this off.

Just saying. Wield carefully the power you hold in your hands, for knowledge is a two edged sword.

This largely depends on how the rest of the party is doing.
If you try this in a monk/rogue/samurai party, then yes, it's really overpowered.
If you try it in a cleric/wizard/druid party, it's a bit on the weak side.

[herrhauptmann]

Hmmm, you might want to have a back up plan when you pull out the Shocktrooping Leap Attacker with Leading the Attack and Pouncing Charge. You can EASILY pull over 500 damage with just that with no hit to accuracy. Thats enough to 1-shot all but the tarrasque and the hartiest of dragons. I wouldn't be surprised if your DM came down hard and banned Shocktrooper at least, and possibly Leap Attack, and even possibly all of ToB for pulling something like this off.

Just saying. Wield carefully the power you hold in your hands, for knowledge is a two edged sword.

For the most of the game, only use one or two of them at a time? Then when the party is in serious trouble, pull out the 4 piece combo. Leading the attack is a White Raven strike right?

[Keld Denar]

Its a stance. It adds IIRC, +1 damage/IL when charging. Since its static (as opposed to something with dice like Powerful Charge), it would also get multiplied by something like a Valorous Weapon or a critical hit. It would give +20 to damage at level 20, per hit. Stack that on the 60 damage from Leap Attack full PA, and you are looking at 80 damage per hit before you even roll dice or factor in Str. With 5 attacks (4 iteratives + haste), you'll hit the 500 point easy, assuming no misses or crits.

Granted, the damage at say...level 10 will be much lower, but not THAT much, still over 200-300 damage per round, which will descimate a goodly portion of level 10-15 challenges with barely a second thought.

Now, granted, charging is pretty easy to shut down, but I'd rather use my schtick in nearly every combat.

I personally don't allow Shocktrooper in my games. Its too much reward for too little risk. Melee can still deal "enough" damage without it, and having it in the game simply agravates the already prelavant sense of rocket tag in the game. Thats my own personal preference, though, based on experience. YMMV.

[herrhauptmann]

Its a stance. It adds IIRC, +1 damage/IL when charging. Since its static (as opposed to something with dice like Powerful Charge), it would also get multiplied by something like a Valorous Weapon or a critical hit. It would give +20 to damage at level 20, per hit. Stack that on the 60 damage from Leap Attack full PA, and you are looking at 80 damage per hit before you even roll dice or factor in Str. With 5 attacks (4 iteratives + haste), you'll hit the 500 point easy, assuming no misses or crits.

Granted, the damage at say...level 10 will be much lower, but not THAT much, still over 200-300 damage per round, which will descimate a goodly portion of level 10-15 challenges with barely a second thought.


Don't forget, after all that's done, to use Combat Brute and throw in all of your PA goodies for a second set of full round attacks. Whatever the first round didn't kill, the second should definitely do it.

[LordBlades]

I
I personally don't allow Shocktrooper in my games. Its too much reward for too little risk. Melee can still deal "enough" damage without it, and having it in the game simply agravates the already prelavant sense of rocket tag in the game. Thats my own personal preference, though, based on experience. YMMV.

While not disputing your preference to ban Shock Trooper in any way, I think you're wrong on the little risk part. Most things able to take a Shock Tropoper to the face and live, are also able to flatten a character with 0-ish AC in the following round. Shock Trooper is more of a 'kill him now or die' kind of trick from my experience.

[Keld Denar]

Exactly...rocket tag. You die, or it dies, based on one round of dice rolling. Shocktrooper gives you a HUGE advantage, but escalates it to a level that I find uncomfortable. If you are in a position where you have the ability to 1-shot 4/5 foes, that 5th foe is gonna kill you.

I like to play on a little more sane playing field than that. Again, my own personal preference.