Switching Weapons plus some wizard questions

[Talesin]

I am currently playing a 3.5 game and am pondering ideas for my next character if/when my current one dies. I was thinking of playing a wizard of some kind as i'm currently playing a fighter.

We're currently level 5 so i'm only really thinking up to that level. I quite like the idea of using a bow as a back up option, but mainly walking around with the bow drawn ready to use it. So I was wondering is there an item/feat that will allow me to put my bow away quickly, rather than dropping it on the floor and then having to pick it up again, so I can cast spells.

We're allowed things from most books but away from core they require my DMs approval. I've heard a lot about Wizards being fairly powerful and have picked spells that mainly buff the party or debuff the enemies rather than blasting spells.

Additionally, to be an effective archer i've been lead to believe that you need precise shot, which is two feats with the prerequired point blank shot. Is this going to hugely gimp my wizard or should I be going for metamagic/other wizard related feats right from the word go? Could anyone recommend some feats that wizards may want or point me to some, i've checked the wizards boards a little, that I could read?

[LordBlades]

If you want to be a wizard, you won't really need to invest any feats into archery as you'll have enough spells for most encounters and you'll rarely (if ever) need to shoot your bow.

Secondly, you'll probably be better off with a crossbow, as having 10+ str on a wizard is pretty pointless

Third, you don't need to put your weapon away; you can hold it in one hand, and you only need one free hand for spellcasting.

Last, if you want to play an archer, I'd recommend cleric over wizard, mainly due to Zen Archery (keys ranged attacks off Wis instead of Dex) and the Elf Domain (free Point Blank Shot).

[Telonius]

I've heard a lot about Wizards being fairly powerful and have picked spells that mainly buff the party or debuff the enemies rather than blasting spells.

:smallbiggrin: When you've been here a bit longer you'll understand how amusing that statement is.

Most DM's read Quick Draw as allowing you to sheathe as well as draw a weapon as a free action.

The biggest problem you'll be facing is that your BAB is horrible. Your dexterity is probably going to be higher than your strength, but still you'll have a very difficult time at hitting anything. Your damage will be very poor even if you do hit something. It's an unfortunate fact that archery in D&D is not all that great. You can get Power Attack to improve melee damage, but there's no equivalent feat for ranged.

Your best bet right now, if you're committed to this course? Probably a level of Fighter, then Eldritch Knight. Normally losing two caster levels is a big no-no, but it sounds like you're in an low-optimization game. The higher base attack bonus will help you hit, the Fighter level will get you a free feat, and you'll have more hit points overall.

There are lots (and I mean lots of other, more powerful ways to do what you're wanting to do, but if my suspicion is right this will be the way that keeps you most in line with the power level of your party.

[gbprime]

:smallbiggrin: When you've been here a bit longer you'll understand how amusing that statement is.

Actually, I'm impressed. His statement is spot-on, as causing damage is one of the least efficient things a wizard can do, and it should be considered a back up option. All the people with weapons in the group can inflict damage, but only the wizard can cast Haste and Slow.

That said, you want a method of causing damage as a back up plan. Bravo.

If you're going to spend a feat on this backup plan, I would recommend going with a Reserve Feat instead. (They're in Complete Mage.) Taking Storm Bolt or Fiery Burst will allow you to do an area effect blast as often as you want, which is usually superior to any archery you could produce. You just need to save 1 spell in your head to power it.

[Curmudgeon]

Most DM's read Quick Draw as allowing you to sheathe as well as draw a weapon as a free action.
"Most"? Not even close to true. Certainly no DM who ever played in RPGA games. That's strictly your house rule.

[Telonius]

"Most"? Not even close to true. Certainly no DM who ever played in RPGA games. That's strictly your house rule.

In my personal sample size of seven DMs, six (including one who's active in RPGA outside of his home games) have allowed it, with Curmudgeon against. YMMV.

[Sacrieur]

It's much easier to pull out a weapon than sheath it. I envision quickly putting your weapon away as, "Ow! My leg! D="

[Thespianus]

As a Wizard using a bow, there's some fun to be had with 1st level spells:

SpC has the 1st level spell Arrow Mind, which lets you threaten neighboring squares with your bow, and you can fire it without provoking AoO.

SpC Guided Shot: Ignore distance, cover, concealment penalties for 1 round

Combine Guided Shot with True Strike from PHB for a +20 to hit. With a composite longbow, you can easily hit someone from VERY far away. ;)


Granted, it's all very very suboptimal compared to being a normal Wizard, but it can be fun anyway :)

[Darrin]

We're currently level 5 so i'm only really thinking up to that level. I quite like the idea of using a bow as a back up option, but mainly walking around with the bow drawn ready to use it. So I was wondering is there an item/feat that will allow me to put my bow away quickly, rather than dropping it on the floor and then having to pick it up again, so I can cast spells.


First, letting go of your bow with one hand is already a free action (if you couldn't do this already, you couldn't even draw ammunition for it or nock an arrow). Re-gripping the bow is also a free action. So you can already free up one hand for somatic gestures without doing anything fancy.

Second, if you really need to get both hands free, you can get a Glove of Storing, which can swap an object out of your hand as a free action so long as it weighs 20 lbs or less. However, the Glove of Storing is expensive... 10000 GP, when the recommended Wealth By Level for a 5th level character is only 9000 GP. Fortunately, there is a much cheaper version called the Glove of the Master Strategist, Ghostwalk p. 71. It works just like the Glove of Storing, but also has true strike 1/day, and only costs 3600 GP (this price was based on the old 3.0 price for a Glove of Storing). Ghostwalk received a 3.5 update, and the price wasn't changed, so that's the official price for it in 3.5.

Third, if all you want is to be able to smack people that get too close to you with a melee weapon while you're trying to shoot arrows/spells/etc., you can buy an Elvencraft Bow for +300 GP (Races of the Wild p. 166). This allows you to treat your longbow as a quarterstaff, so it still threatens the squares around you as a melee weapon. (The Magic Item Compendium has a veritable plethora of Sword-Bows and various magic weapons that switch between a sword/bow, but they generally require an action to switch, while an Elvencraft Bow is smackable-ready without any required action whatsoever).



Additionally, to be an effective archer i've been lead to believe that you need precise shot, which is two feats with the prerequired point blank shot. Is this going to hugely gimp my wizard or should I be going for metamagic/other wizard related feats right from the word go? Could anyone recommend some feats that wizards may want or point me to some, i've checked the wizards boards a little, that I could read?

Precise Shot is available as a +1 weapon enhancement (MIC p. 40). However, that requires at least a +2 weapon, which is still a huge chunk of WBL for a 5th level character. Archery is *extremely* feat intensive no matter how you approach the build, so you can pretty much throw most of your Metamagic feats out the window. There are classes you can dip into that can help with the feats, but every non-wizard level is another caster level flushed down the drain... and particularly on this particular forum, pretty much all optimization advice boils down to *THOU SHALT NOT LOSE CASTER LEVELS*.

You might want to consider the Simple Wizard variant in Unearthed Arcana, which gets fighter bonus feats instead of Scribe Scroll and metamagic feats every 5 levels. A dip into Cloistered Cleric to pick up the Elf domain (PB Shot as a bonus feat), Travel Devotion (mini-pounce 10 rounds/day, move up to your speed as a swift action), and Knowledge Devotion (free action to get an attack/damage buff) also can help out an archer build quite a bit.

[Sims]

Did he try the Quick draw feat? :|

[Talesin]

Thanks for all the comments so far. I have to admit I had heard that wizards were better at debuffing etc than blasting but who doesn't enjoy throwing fireballs around?

My group is pretty unoptimized, we just play mainly to banter with each other and get a good story out of it rather than trying to down a tarrasque at level 3. The fighter dip is actually a good idea and something I hadn't thought of, as my dm gives us weapon focus at level 1. I could make this longbow then go for levels of wizard from there.

I am slightly concerned about the damage, my current fighter is at +7 to damage on his dwarven waraxe (due to some house ruling bits to push the damage of fighters up) and can shield bash. But I could always buff myself with some +strength and use a composite longbow if this becomes a major concern, which I doubt it will.

The staff/bow is a great idea and I am going to ask my dm whether he'll allow that, though I am assuming he won't because you effectively get something for nothing (well, 300gp) and given I am going to be playing a wizard I am sure he's not going to be wanting to make my character more powerful.


First, letting go of your bow with one hand is already a free action (if you couldn't do this already, you couldn't even draw ammunition for it or nock an arrow). Re-gripping the bow is also a free action. So you can already free up one hand for somatic gestures without doing anything fancy

So you can cast spells while holding an item in one hand? Well that sort've makes my initial question null and void as i'll have no need to put the bow away I can just cast with my free hand.

Finally i've heard a lot about metamagic and read what it actually does, but how useful is it overall? Is casting maximised lower level spells actually better than just casting spells of the new level? Or am I thinking too blasty here when I should be thinking of things like widened grease?

[Kyrinthic]

metamagic is about versitility and efficiency.

You usually cant get much more damage from metamagic than you could by just using the top slots for damage unless you start taking metamagic optimization feats, but if you do, they become very strong. (Practical Metamagic, I'm looking at you)

On the other hand, things like reach spell, and extend, chain and twin can often net you more targets or effect duration than you would get by other means.

And quicken lets you cast two spells around, even if one is only magic missile (and not even that at level 5), thats about action efficiency, which cannot be underrated ever.

-Kyrinthic

[Darrin]

Finally i've heard a lot about metamagic and read what it actually does, but how useful is it overall? Is casting maximised lower level spells actually better than just casting spells of the new level? Or am I thinking too blasty here when I should be thinking of things like widened grease?

In general, metamagic isn't all that useful unless you have some way to reduce the level cost. Clerics do this primarily with Divine Metamagic (burning Turn Undead attempts to reduce the level adjustment for Persistent Spell/Quicken Spell/Chain Spell to zero).

Wizards generally require a lot more feats to get any decent metamagic reduction working, but most of them go into the Incantatrix PrC and use Arcane Thesis with a variety of low-level-adjustment metamagic feats like Energy Substitution, Relicguard, Easy Metamagic, and maybe Invisible Spell (*shudder*... don't ask, even the non-broken applications of this feat create epic levels of stupidity) to reduce the cost of bigger metamagic such as Quicken, Chain, etc.

Sorcerers get to scream bitter rants of pure white-hot rage until ECL 9, when they can finally take the Rapid Metamagic feat... and then get to malevolently grumble about how they get completely shafted on feats (which they have every right to, because they do).

For low-level optimization, if you only have a couple feats to spare on metamagic or if you're not trying to crack the planet in half with a 1st level spell, then here's some general advice:

Extend Spell is very useful in the ECL 3 to ECL 9 range (particularly for druids), but becomes mostly dead weight at mid- to high-levels.

Empower Spell (+2 LA, +50% damage) is generally better than Maximize Spell (+3 LA, Max damage). I'm sure someone out there has worked all this out mathematically, but I don't feel like looking it up a the moment.

Sculpt Spell is better than Widen Spell. Same level adjustment, much more flexible.

The Sudden Metamagic feats are a bit of a trap - much easier to use than the non-sudden feats, but you're limited to once per day, which tends to rankle the high-end optimizers. If you can afford metamagic rods, then they're a waste of precious feat slots. For casual or low-level play, though, they may be worth it for that "This is my BOOMSTICK!" feeling 1/day without all the effort and hassle that goes into a highly optimized Incantatrix build.

[Kyrinthic]

you meant Empower not enlarge, enlarge is pretty crappy :)

-Kyrinthic

[Darrin]

you meant Empower not enlarge, enlarge is pretty crappy :)

-Kyrinthic

Gah! Yes, fixed it. Thank you.

[gbprime]

Metamagic is not right for every caster, but for some it can be quite useful. Metamagic like Energy Substitution allows you to use a single spell against a wide variety of foes. Useful for a wizard, vital for a sorcerer.

One of the better metamagics in that school of thought is Searing Spell out of Sandstorm. For +1 spell level, it allows a fire spell to totally ignore fire resistance (as well as do 1/2 damage to things with fire immunity). This makes spell chains like Scorching Ray, Fireball, and Blast of Flame useful FAR into your character's career.

[Quietus]

Other considerations : The reserve feats are a nice option for a ranged attack ability, as noted. As a DM, if a player came to me and said "I want to have my fiery burst reserve feat form a bow of fire in my hand, which I shoot exploding fire arrows from, as long as the feat is powered" I'd think that was incredibly awesome and give it the thumbs up. Doesn't change how the feat works at all, just how it looks.

Alternatively, point blank shot and precise shot can be useful for a spellcaster, if they focus on rays at the high levels. For now, your bow will be a backup for when you run out of useful spells for the situation, but later on if you're slinging around scorching rays/polar rays/ray of exhaustion/ray of enfeeblement/whatever, Precise Shot will still be of use to you, eliminating that -4 for firing into melee. It's usually not a big deal, but firing rays into melee without it means that until level 10, your base attack is pretty much negated, meaning you're rolling d20+dex vs touch attack. Not a huge problem, often, but it'd be nice to keep that BAB around, so you can roll a 2 and still hit.

[Talesin]

Thanks again for the useful information. I think I might try the fighter level dip, playing an elf so I get the + dex. I probably won't be able to do a huge amount of damage, but given we don't tend to do the 15 minute adventuring days, being able to save my spells on some of the less important encounters will help the group overall.

Thanks very much for all the help, i'm probably not going to bother with metamagic too heavily. Given i'm going to have some archer feats will these assist with ranged touch attack based spells?

[Darrin]

Thanks again for the useful information. I think I might try the fighter level dip, playing an elf so I get the + dex.


The only advantage to taking Elf as your race is it offers proficiency with bows and access to the Elf domain (Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat) if you want to dip Cloistered Cleric. If you're going to dip Fighter, then you gain proficiency with all martial weapons, so that takes care of the bow proficiency, and the Human bonus feat is going to be immensely more important than the +2 Dex bonus. The fighter level also helps you get into Spellsword and Abjurant Champion:

Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
Feats:
1) PB Shot, Precise Shot (Fighter), Travel Devotion (Human)
3) Rapid Shot
6) Knowledge Devotion (or some other non-archery feat)
9) Improved Rapid Shot
12) Woodland Archer

From there, you can finish off with Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Eldritch Knight, Incantatrix, or whatever you like.



Given i'm going to have some archer feats will these assist with ranged touch attack based spells?

Yes, most of your ranged-based feats are going to work well with ranged touch attacks.