[3.5] Core (PHB, DMG, MM) only optimization

[SillySymphonies]

To quote Saph in his/her "The Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415)" thread:

"The only material that you can really count on a player having access to is the PHB and (probably) the DMG and MM. Even Core-only can't be assumed - not everyone uses the SRD."

Optimization like using guisarmes and spiked chains (reach + trip), TWF rogues (more sneak attacks per round), class dips (first two levels of monk are rather good) is fairly obvious these days, but it wouldn't appear that way to someone who first gets introduced to the game: TWF for example seems more the intended domain of fighters (bonus feats) and rangers (combat style) rather than rogues (who actually benefit from TWF).

The flaws (and merits) of 3.5 core's design have been discussed elsewhere. My request: is there some basic guide which outlines the basic optimization possible within core? If not, what would such basic guidelines be? (I'm talking stuff that's relatively obvious to veterans, like guisarme/spiked chain plus improved trip and combat reflexes, TWF only useful for rogues etcetera.)

[gorfnab]

I have not seen a handbook dealing with how to optimize within core. I have seen these two threads that have many core only optimized builds.

Core Compositions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8146.0)
[CO Project] Pure SRD Builds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1021.msg390377#msg390377)

[TroubleBrewing]

In core, optimization is simple.

Druid 20.

[Yora]

But what to pick instead of Fleshrakers?

[DeltaEmil]

Bears riding on Fleshrakers who are polymorphed bears.

[Killer Angel]

But what to pick instead of Fleshrakers?

Start with riding dog trained for war, then improve.
Fleshrakers are only the cherry on the cake. :smallsmile:

For melee damage, probably you should go for some riding charger.

[Eldariel]

But what to pick instead of Fleshrakers?

Most feline, canine & ursine creatures are solid choices. Special note to dinosaurs, crocodiles and large animals like rhinoceros and elephants; and Dire Bat as the only solid option of its genus.

If you want "optimal" choices while upgrading at every level possible, the list goes something like:
1. Riding Dog (War-trained)
4. Dire Bat (or Leopard)
7. Brown Bear (or Rhinoceros or Giant Crocodile)
10. Dire Lion (or Polar Bear) - this level is the only lackluster one
13. Dire Bear (or Elephant)
16. Dire Tiger (or Tyrannosaur)

There's plenty of awesome choices in Core. And of course, Wildshape is extremely easy there too. Feline forms for Pounce (since that's really the only efficient way of fighting in Core) > proceed to profit.


But yeah, Core-only optimization is very easy. Most martial types aren't really any good as they lack ways to really do stuff (Fighter's feats are worthless, no martials can get iteratives after movement, Mounted Charging and Tripping are really the only worthwhile combat methods) so mostly, it's a few very specific melee builds and then all straight casters and some skill monkey/caster multiclasses.


Druid 20
Cleric 20
Cleric 15/Thaumaturgist 5
Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5
Wizard 5/Red Wizard of Thay 10/Loremaster 1/Archmage 4 (strongest Core-only character by far, when using Simulacrums or Leadership to fill up your Circle)
Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Loremaster-or-Archmage 2
Ranger-or-Barbarian-or-Paladin-or-Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard-or-Archmage 2 (the martial classes can be any combination; I like Ranger for the free Rapid Shot and good skills but Barbarian for Movement Speed and Uncanny Dodge is nice too; Pally if you have high Cha, as Sorcs don't get 9s)


And then you have some martial builds like Barbarian 12/Sorcerer 2/Fighter 2/Dragon Disciple 4 (and variants with less Barbarian, more Dragon Disciple up to Dragon Disciple 9), Horizon Tripper (and variants with varying base class composition), etc. But yeah, as said, it's really easy given system mastery. The best options are somewhat counterintuitive tho.

[TroubleBrewing]

The best options are somewhat counterintuitive tho.

Hence barbarian/sorcerer builds. Honestly, if you're given a core-only directive by a DM, do not, and I cannot emphasize this enough, go melee. Under any circumstances. None. Never. Don't.

If you must be a smashy death machine, Horizon Tripper. But seriously. Full casters dominate core for a reason.

[Yora]

Honestly, if you're given a core-only directive by a DM, do not, and I cannot emphasize this enough, go melee. Under any circumstances. None. Never. Don't.
If you're playing in a high optimization game. If not, it's not actually a problem.

[Provengreil]

If you're playing in a high optimization game. If not, it's not actually a problem.

agreed. even a sword and board fighter can pull his weight in most prewritten modules.

[TroubleBrewing]

True.

Actually, better than true. My first couple of years playing 3.5 were playing core-only because that's all we had access to. And because none of us had ever heard of optimization, Monk 20 seems like a good deal.

Given a Core-only environment, chances are good that you find yourself in a Low-Optimization game (where melee is a solid choice).

Ergo, Core-only = melee OK.

[Flickerdart]

Shields are actually not that useless even in Core - a character with Improved Shield Bash can TWF it and still gain the AC bonus, and spiked bashing heavy shields have the best dice of any one-handed weapon. There are some other shield-only abilities which are pretty neat, like Reflecting, and carrying a shield allows you to double up on armour properties like Undead Controlling. A Lion's Shield is also the only way you're going to be moving and full attacking in Core.

[Eldariel]

Shields are actually not that useless even in Core - a character with Improved Shield Bash can TWF it and still gain the AC bonus, and spiked bashing heavy shields have the best dice of any one-handed weapon. There are some other shield-only abilities which are pretty neat, like Reflecting, and carrying a shield allows you to double up on armour properties like Undead Controlling. A Lion's Shield is also the only way you're going to be moving and full attacking in Core.

Well, Animated Shields kinda throw a wrench into that after the first ~8 levels. But yeah, shields definitely have something to do though it's hard to effectively tie opponents down with one-handers aside from Kusari-Gama.

[TroubleBrewing]

Kusari-gama being probably the strongest 1-hander available.

[Yora]

Though I'd like to see how anyone actually uses a kusarigama one handed. It's a bit like shoting a bow with one hand. The writters really messed up with that one. :smallbiggrin:

[TroubleBrewing]

Yes. Yes they did. I guess they figured that they already had the spiked chain, and they needed a sort-of 1-handed version of it?

[Tyndmyr]

Though I'd like to see how anyone actually uses a kusarigama one handed. It's a bit like shoting a bow with one hand. The writters really messed up with that one. :smallbiggrin:

Technically, I know a guy that dual wields bows, shooting them one handed. They are fairly light bows, and it still looks awkward as hell, but it is possible.

I've tried it, and while I can shoot a 35 lb bow one handed, it was sufficiently annoying for me to not really bother with further experimentation.

[balistafreak]

Technically, I know a guy that dual wields bows, shooting them one handed. They are fairly light bows, and it still looks awkward as hell, but it is possible.

I've tried it, and while I can shoot a 35 lb bow one handed, it was sufficiently annoying for me to not really bother with further experimentation.

Wait, wait, wait, what is he bracing the bow itself against? You use one hand to brace the bow, one hand to pull the string back... so assuming that you are using the one arm to pull the string back, what braces the bow? A foot? Between the legs? Your teeth? :smallconfused:

[SillySymphonies]

Wizard 5/Red Wizard of Thay 10/Loremaster 1/Archmage 4
Why the 1 level of loremaster (instead of a 5th level of archmage)?


Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Loremaster-or-Archmage 2
Why not Rogue1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1/Wizard +1/Arcane Trickster 10/Loremaster-or-Archmage 3?


Ranger-or-Barbarian-or-Paladin-or-Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard-or-Archmage 2
Why not Ranger-or-Barbarian-or-Paladin-or-Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard-or-Archmage 4? I can understand the 2nd level of fighter (bonus feat) or paladin (divine grace, though that's more useful for a paladin/sorcerer build), but the 2nd level of barbarian or ranger seems rather lackluster.


Barbarian 12/Sorcerer 2/Fighter 2/Dragon Disciple 4
What's with the second sorcerer level?

[Cog]

What's with the second sorcerer level?
Two more spells per day and a slight CL increase, without cutting further into your BAB. Disciple would do the latter, Fighter offers nothing, Barbarian just gives one more point of DR.

[Particle_Man]

My request: is there some basic guide which outlines the basic optimization possible within core?

The following might help:

http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=3335

http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=3336

Although I don't always agree with them, they do stick to core. Note that the former ignores the potency of the humble Javelin (a thrown weapon with great range), perhaps because it is "merely" a simple weapon.

[Eldariel]

Why the 1 level of loremaster (instead of a 5th level of archmage)?

Use Magic Device can be maxed this way; Loremaster is the cheapest way to get it in class and this notably allows early use of Beads of Karma reliably, along with the obvious benefits. You also get the invested feat back as a Secret. Mostly tho, it's the UMD allowing you to do everything.


Why not Rogue1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1/Wizard +1/Arcane Trickster 10/Loremaster-or-Archmage 3?

As you need 3rd level spells for Arcane Trickster, it's cleanest to enter with Wizard 6 with regards to saves & BAB. Wizard 5-entrance certainly works but is even further behind on the scaling numbers than the Wizard 6-variant, lacking 1 point of all saves and BAB.


Why not Ranger-or-Barbarian-or-Paladin-or-Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard-or-Archmage 4? I can understand the 2nd level of fighter (bonus feat) or paladin (divine grace, though that's more useful for a paladin/sorcerer build), but the 2nd level of barbarian or ranger seems rather lackluster.

16 BAB. Ranger 2 gets you Rapid Shot tho which is fairly good, bypassing the bad archery feats and making you competent at that with minimal investment. You also get good skills from both, Barb 2 and Ranger 2 compared to Fighter-or-Pally 2. Note that I didn't mean "take 2 in any of those classes"; want fast movement and skills? Ranger 1/Barb 1. Skills and feat? Ranger 1/Fighter 1. And so on. Wizard 5 vs. Wizard 6 is the same matter; you care about BAB and saves and that's roughly optimal for those. And honestly, Uncanny Dodge is fairly good; it's not always you can avoid surprise.


What's with the second sorcerer level?

Yeah, the usual; extra spell, some extra CL, and better save&BAB leveling; you get an extra point of Will this way which is of your weaker saves, and by and large the most important one (failed Fort = death; failed Will = "die" AND fight for the opposition).


Basically, all those come down to optimizing the BAB, skills and the saves you gain. Notably Ranger-base Gish has a ton of points to spread across various skills and the second level can be taken later to max out a number for a rather cheap price. It also, obviously, expands the skill-cap=your-level+3 list quite a bit.



The following might help:

http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=3335

http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=3336

Although I don't always agree with them, they do stick to core. Note that the former ignores the potency of the humble Javelin (a thrown weapon with great range), perhaps because it is "merely" a simple weapon.

I've got the Fighter-guide and it's awful. Bunch of easy to crunch numbers and self-evidencies and no more developed strategy or even mention of the fact that Tripping is the best of the special attacks. The advice is the level "yeah, you might actually want to consider not taking a shield for the 2xPA returns!"

[SillySymphonies]

Re: Eldariel

Thanks for the clarifications Eldariel. :)

I didn't notice loremaster has use magic device as a class skill. Very useful.
I forgot about BAB/saves shenanigans - fractional BAB/saves is the only houserule when I DM.


(...) the fact that Tripping is the best of the special attacks.
This is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for in my original post: a clear outline of what are good options that are not immediately obvious to someone new to the system.

EDIT: [nevermind]

[gorfnab]

Kusari-gama being probably the strongest 1-hander available.
And it works interestingly in my Variant Horizon Tripper build.

Human
1. Ranger - Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kusari-Gama (DMG page 144), B: Track
2. Ranger - B: Two Weapon Fighting
3. Fighter - Combat Expertise, B: Improved Trip
4. Barbarian
5. Ranger - B: Endurance
6. Barbarian - Combat Reflexes
7. Horizon Walker
8. Horizon Walker
9. Horizon Walker - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Horizon Walker
11. Horizon Walker
12. Horizon Walker - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13. Horizon Walker
14. Horizon Walker
15. Horizon Walker - Dodge
16. Horizon Walker
17. Fighter - B: Mobility
18. Fighter - Spring Attack
19. Fighter - B: Whirlwind Attack
20. Shadowdancer (or something else, Hide in Plain Sight is an okay capstone though)

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

And it works interestingly in my Variant Horizon Tripper build.

Human
1. Ranger - Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kusari-Gama (DMG page 144), B: Track
2. Ranger - B: Two Weapon Fighting
3. Fighter - Combat Expertise, B: Improved Trip
4. Barbarian
5. Ranger - B: Endurance
6. Barbarian - Combat Reflexes
7. Horizon Walker
8. Horizon Walker
9. Horizon Walker - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Horizon Walker
11. Horizon Walker
12. Horizon Walker - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13. Horizon Walker
14. Horizon Walker
15. Horizon Walker - Dodge
16. Horizon Walker
17. Fighter - B: Mobility
18. Fighter - Spring Attack
19. Fighter - B: Whirlwind Attack
20. Shadowdancer (or something else, Hide in Plain Sight is an okay capstone though)


I dont understand hte point of getting two Weapon fighting and Whirlwind Attack... Using either is a full attack action, so why not just use TWF to hit everything around you, instead of spending yet another feat to do the same?

[gorfnab]

I dont understand hte point of getting two Weapon fighting and Whirlwind Attack... Using either is a full attack action, so why not just use TWF to hit everything around you, instead of spending yet another feat to do the same?
The last 4 levels are basically filler. You could easily shove in more Barbarian levels in there or go into Shadowdancer at level 18 instead. However with Whirlwind Attack the attacks made against every opponent in reach are made at your highest base attack bonus instead of the iterative attack progression. Dodge at level 15 is even a filler if you just want to finish off with more Barbarian.