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Denihilist
2011-03-28, 10:18 AM
Long-time reader, first time poster here.

I need advice on a situation that came up in the game I am running. The players wanted to rescue a couple friends from the capital city jail. They contacted their long-time benefactor who got them information on the jail, what could be expected, etc.

The players decided they did not want to do a straight prison break, and decided instead to try to get their friends moved and nab them in transit to another facility buy planting the rumor that there was going to be a jailbreak. The rumor worked, because they handled it correctly (good rolls, etc.). However, they were told there would be a minimum of 20 guards, plus the guard's superiors using armored transports.

I made sure they ran into another party of rebel soldiers who were supporters of the incarcerated friends and wanted to help, and were planning to breaking the jailbirds out of the jail, the players again decided against hitting the jail, and instead told all 10 of the rebel soldiers to wait until the jailbirds were totally out of the jail and on the city streets before starting a diversionary attack on the jail.

So, the 4 PCs (10th level) attacked their armored convoy with a couple of people they identified as mages, and a giant ogre fighter in the lead, and all 20 guards on horseback. Mind, they did not do any recon on the convoy before attacking, they did not use the thieves guild for information, despite the fact that I told them the option is available, they did not use their pirate connections, they did not call the two people they know are seers, and they did not hire the mercenary band that works in the same city whom they have used to great effect before.

We ended last session with 12 prison guards, their two commanders, a mage that was hiding in the armored trucks, and the two rogues that had disguised themselves as mages out in the open all alive and relatively unharmed, the ogre prison guard badly hurt, but standing.

The PCs are in a bad way. Their ranger who went toe-to-toe with the ogre is -2 HP bleeding out on the ground from massive contusions and damage from the ogre's greatclub, The Knight of the group is drooling on himself after falling victim to a feeble-mind spell. The Mage is currently in a straight up sword battle with two rogues who have flanking on him, and the party monk is the only one relatively unharmed...

The city guards do intend to capture the party, but if they keep fighting, it is a possibility of a TPK. I do have some options, but I feel like they are cop-outs that would save the player's from the reality of their decisions. I could make some of the guards loyal to the PC's benefactor (though that was not originally in the plan. I could have their benefactor's powerful mage step in to help (although that would reveal who their benefactor is for all to see), I could have the pirates show up, but there is only one ship in dock, and the pirates were not included in any of the planning, so I am not sure that would be valid.

What are your thoughts?

Hatchet91
2011-03-28, 10:23 AM
first off the group should have been more creative when planning shennanigans like this

like maybe sneaking and disabling device on the wheels of the armored convoy?


but ideas like that aside

having a mysterios group show up and save them could make for a great series of side quests with them repaying the savior.

Thefurmonger
2011-03-28, 10:25 AM
As much as it hurts as a GM to do it sometimes the PCs are really just THAT stupid.

From reading your post it sounds like they had at least 5 good options that they did not take and more or less did the old "Screw it, he wont kill us".

And again, as much as it sucks sometimes things go bad for the PCs.

This is one of those cases. My oppinion? "Let the dice fall where they may"

if the PCs see its all going pear shaped and give us? sure let them live.

But if they fight to the bitter end? Screw it.

Firechanter
2011-03-28, 10:28 AM
What about those rogue soldiers that wanted to assist the PCs? Let's say they broke off their distracting attack on the prison. Or allow the party Monk to run away -- after all, running is what Monks are pretty good at -- and get them to help.

Otherwise, it should be easy enough to capture the PCs now. Have a police cleric cast Cure Minor Wounds on the ranger to stop him from bleeding out. Have the rogues sneak-attack the wizard with saps rather than shorties to knock him out. Throw a net over the Knight. If the Monk gets away, that's okay.

Yora
2011-03-28, 10:33 AM
Seems like the PCs have already lost the fight and are now cornered by an enemy that completely outnumbers them. Since the guards want to take them prisoner (which opens so many possibilities to continue the campaign), the easiest way would be to have the commander tell his troops to halt and demand that the PCs surrender.
As I see it, they don't really have a choice. Accept their defeat or basically hurl themselves into the blades of the guards. Or their own, if they prefer that.
If they refuse, have the commander tell them that there's no way for them to get out of that situation and that trying to continue the fight is suicide.

If they still refuse, I'd run out of ideas. It's like saying "we rather die than get captured". And as a gm, I'd see no way out than having it the way they seem to want it. If they know a TPK is waiting for them, they are given an alternative, but refuse to take it, what else can you do?
TPKs are a problem if they happen by accident, like you severely miscalculated an encounter and before anyone realizes what's actually going on, everyone is dead without having had a chance to avoid it. But in this situation, it's not the case. If the players chose to commit suicide, that's what I would run with. Would be an inconvenience for the campaign as you'd have to make new characters and find a way to continue the campaign with those, but I think once you start allowing the players to get away with everything and ignore the consequences of a bad descision they made with full knowledge, the game breaks apart. And it's usually a huge disappointment for players as well, if they have clearly lost and the victorious enemies just turn around and leave for no reason. Or you could pull a Deus Ex Machina and suddenly some rebel group arrives and saves the day. But that also usually leaves a very bad taste and I would recommend against it.

Erom
2011-03-28, 10:33 AM
I'm a big proponent of "Let TPKs happen". The game isn't a Game without the risk, it's just Improv Theater with a really weird cue set. And this is the "good" kind of TPK - the kind with forewarning and story behind it, not the "bad" kind of random death that results from a mis-balanced encounter or a string of ridiculous luck.

The players have an obvious out here (capture) and if they refuse that, and insist on fighting to the death against overwhelming odds, well, oblige them!

byaku rai
2011-03-28, 10:56 AM
Knock out or almost kill anyone still standing, then take all their precious magic items and chuck them in jail. Maybe they can figure a way out. Maybe not. The way I see it, they brought this on themselves.

Alternatively, kill them for being stupid. It might seem a bit cold, but they thoroughly deserve it and it will prevent something like this from happening again. Maybe after they're all dead and crying you can pull a Deus Ex Machina and have them Raised for questioning (they sound like high-level characters, therefore important, so if you put the right spin on this it's plausible), but be sure they get the message that if they pull this crap again, you will kill them and leave them dead.

I had a similar experience once. We were playing a mid-level thief/assassin type campaign. Of course, we had two inexperienced players, a rogue-type and a blaster wizard, who didn't quite get the whole concept of "forethought and stealth." The idiots charged in through the front door. We had to stop there, but if we hadn't, they would have been thoroughly killed by the anthro-dragon fighter captain of the guard and his Duskblade lieutenant.

TL;DR sometimes the PCs just deserve to die.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-28, 11:54 AM
I'm a big proponent of "Let TPKs happen". The game isn't a Game without the risk, it's just Improv Theater with a really weird cue set. And this is the "good" kind of TPK - the kind with forewarning and story behind it, not the "bad" kind of random death that results from a mis-balanced encounter or a string of ridiculous luck.

The players have an obvious out here (capture) and if they refuse that, and insist on fighting to the death against overwhelming odds, well, oblige them!

Yup. Sure, have the guards knock a coupla em out, and when it's clear they're going to win...offer surrender. If the players insist on fighting, they'll probably be beaten down, possibly with fatal results, depending on exactly what they've done to these guards/etc.

Delwugor
2011-03-28, 12:28 PM
A TPK ends the campaign with these characters.
Opening up a route for retreat allows the characters to live and fight another day.
Surrender opens up all kinds of new opportunities for play.

All 3 have consequences for their failure but only one is final.

Sipex
2011-03-28, 12:37 PM
I think some of you are being too harsh on the players, they messed up the actual attack but they did do some clever work on getting to the situation at first (ie: the whole rumour thing etc). As a reward for not being completely stupid I'd have the guards do their best to capture the PCs OR have the rebels show up and cause a distraction which doesn't retrieve their friend but allows them to escape.

From there, as a DM let them know that getting the PCs mid-transport was a good idea but you feel they didn't handle the actual attack too well and had x, y and z resources they missed out on using and that this plan could've worked with a bit more back work to it.

From there? Open up the campaign depending on how you go, they'll most likely look into their other stuff next time now that you've told them about what you're expecting from them.

How long have you played with these PCs? Have they been known to usually get that complex before? This could easily be a case of "We've never had a DM who required that much footwork to be done before, we thought we did enough."

The Big Dice
2011-03-28, 12:42 PM
A TPK ends the campaign with these characters.
Opening up a route for retreat allows the characters to live and fight another day.
Surrender opens up all kinds of new opportunities for play.

All 3 have consequences for their failure but only one is final.
How do you make a daring escape if you never get captured?

Sebastrd
2011-03-28, 12:46 PM
I say kill them. The players can't be that heavily invested in their characters to simply throw them away on a whim like this, unless they believe you don't have the testicular fortitude to go through with a TPK. In either case, killing them solves the problem.

Yora
2011-03-28, 12:48 PM
The post you quoted doesn't mention anything about daring escapes? :smallconfused:

TroubleBrewing
2011-03-28, 12:56 PM
Kill 'em. Gygax didn't believe in mercy (or fairness, or encounters less than 5 levels above the party...), so why should we?

But seriously. Kill them all.

Firechanter
2011-03-28, 01:02 PM
Nonsense. Gygax also believed it's fine if you die by looking into a hole with no way of finding out beforehand what is in store. "WWGD" is not how you run RPGs in the 21st century.

Also, everyone makes a mistake once in a while. If the players usually play sensible and take the necessary measures, slipping up once shouldn't necessarily result in a TPK.

Denihilist
2011-03-28, 01:24 PM
Great thoughts everyone, I appreciate the well-reasoned responses.

I think I am going to give them the opportunity to choose capture, or fight to the death. If they choose to be captured (some or all of the PCs) they will find out who the other prisoner is while they are being interrogated... of course, my less than nice side really want's to kill them all, but I will refrain from that for the moment.

Thank you all for your thoughts.

Britter
2011-03-28, 01:51 PM
I like your conclusion. Let them make a meaningful choice. If they opt to surrender, great! You now have a complication for them to deal with, daring escapes to plan, and lots of potential options. If they opt to fight, slaughter them without mercy. Pull no punches. Kill them extremely dead (or at least try. If they manage to pull out a miraculos win in the face of extreme adversity, thats cool too. But make them work hard for it). They will know that their actions have ramifications, and that their choices matter.

Don't go easy on them if they opt to fight though, because then they won't be as sure that they had a choice.

Yora
2011-03-28, 03:05 PM
I like the basic idea of Mouse Guard: "There is no actual failure, there are just new directions the plot can take."
Though that game also assumes that the PCs almost never actually face the threat of death, but roll with me here. :smallbiggrin:

Vladislav
2011-03-28, 03:06 PM
Have an epic-level NPC arrive and save them in the nick of time. Make that NPC a permanent fixture of the campaign. You know you wanna. That was sarcasm.

Thefurmonger
2011-03-28, 03:11 PM
I like the basic idea of Mouse Guard: "There is no actual failure, there are just new directions the plot can take."
Though that game also assumes that the PCs almost never actually face the threat of death, but roll with me here. :smallbiggrin:

The only problem with this is that if you let the players be stupid/fail to plan/just wing it, and then bail them out when it goes bad. Then why in the hell would they bother to ever plan?

If there is no chance of failure then why come up anything cunning? they know the GM will just bail them out.

The players have to know that if they are morons they run the real risk of loosing. Otherwise why bother upping their saves? why get that next 2 pts of AC? If the GM is too scared to "pull the trigger" then there is no real risk.

Britter
2011-03-28, 03:16 PM
For the record, Mouseguard says that failing a roll or test should lead to complications. And in the structure of the game, complications can be everything fro a total change in direction of the entire mission all the way through injuries and illness. Frankly, death would occasionally seem a welcome release to the beleaguered guard-mouse suffering from hunger and thirst, wounded after a fight with a vicious rat, tracking a stolen mail parcel across a hostile forest in the midst of a torrential downpoor. Those complications would all derieve from failed rolls. It is a pretty solid model for failure.

The Big Dice
2011-03-28, 03:23 PM
The post you quoted doesn't mention anything about daring escapes? :smallconfused:

How does "Surrender opens up all kinds of new opportunities for play" not lead you to think of ways your current character could bust out of jail. Either to clear his/her name, or to be the Most Awesome Outlaw in the region? :smallyuk:

As for Gygax, remember this is the guy who had players with characters called Bigby. Who adventured with Sigby Griggbyson the fighter. There was also a Magic Used called Rary, who wanted to get to 3rd level so he could be Medium Rary. This is the GM that had Robillar, a fighter, solo the entire Temple of Elemental Evil. And not forgetting Gygax's own PC, Mordenkainen.

This was the man who said "A DM only rolls dice for the sound they make" and "Hello Fry, it's a ... *[stops mid-sentence, throws a D20 and a D6]* pleasure to meet you."

I owuldn't say it was all murder and mayhem with EGG. In fact, I'd say that 21st century could do with a bit of going backwards to move forwards. Return to some of the ideas espoused by Gygax, but remembering that there's been 35 years of growth and development in the hobby.

Thefurmonger
2011-03-28, 03:59 PM
As for Gygax, remember this is the guy who had players with characters called Bigby. Who adventured with Sigby Griggbyson the fighter. There was also a Magic Used called Rary, who wanted to get to 3rd level so he could be Medium Rary. This is the GM that had Robillar, a fighter, solo the entire Temple of Elemental Evil. And not forgetting Gygax's own PC, Mordenkainen.

For what it's worth you just made me REALLY miss the old days.

If you will excuse me I have to go find my old red box...

Callos_DeTerran
2011-03-28, 04:49 PM
For what it's worth you just made me REALLY miss the old days.

If you will excuse me I have to go find my old red box...

Play Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk. :smallfrown: Really made me miss older game mentality.

Delwugor
2011-03-28, 04:50 PM
How does "Surrender opens up all kinds of new opportunities for play" not lead you to think of ways your current character could bust out of jail. Either to clear his/her name, or to be the Most Awesome Outlaw in the region? :smallyuk:
Give the man a cookie ... just not one of mine cause I'm hungry.

I once had a character attempt to talk her way out of a similar situation. Well she completely failed and had her throat slit for her troubles ... but it would have been awesome if she succeeded.

One time we surrendered and were dropped into the bottom of a dungeon with nothing but our clothes and "You are free to go". That lead to some great fun and making the bad guy eat his words was a very sweet reward.

In super hero games surrendering often leads to the villain's speech about his evil plans and how this contraption will kill them in the most unusual and painful manner. And of course this contraption is never enough to stop the good guys but hey why waste a good trope.

holywhippet
2011-03-28, 05:58 PM
I think using deus ex machina to save the PCs is a bad idea. At best you could give them a chance to flee from the battle. But honestly, if you throw a safety net underneath them after such a massive screw up then they might come to expect safety nets in the future. Let the dice fall where they may.

Severus
2011-03-28, 06:06 PM
I guess I don't know enough to really judge.

It sounds like they were foolish, but it also sounds to me like the guard on these guys was serious overkill unless they were really special criminals. I don't think I'd expect a small army for moving two prisoners.

You said the fighter got hit with a feeblemind spell. That's a serious high level caster you got there on top of other things. What was the challenge rating of this encounter?

Witty Username
2011-03-28, 06:41 PM
What spells does the mage still have?

How unharmed is the monk?

level's of the guards, rouges and mage?

amount of hurt the ogre is in?

The players may surprise you, offering surrender is still a good idea at this point.

byaku rai
2011-03-28, 07:03 PM
I think using deus ex machina to save the PCs is a bad idea. At best you could give them a chance to flee from the battle. But honestly, if you throw a safety net underneath them after such a massive screw up then they might come to expect safety nets in the future. Let the dice fall where they may.

... Of course, you could give them the safety net this time, then next time when they're expecting a net inform them (not when they're planning, such as it may be, but when they walk into the encounter) that there won't be such forgiveness this time, and isn't it an awful shame that they didn't plan things out more?

... That's probably just my Neutral Evil side talking, though...

TroubleBrewing
2011-03-28, 07:41 PM
If you give them a safety net today, they'll be riding cannonballs into battle tomorrow. They'll become so unafraid of you as a DM that you'll be forced to run the Tomb of Horrors to rekindle that fear.

Kill them all, or suffer the consequences of a party that is literally immune to fear.

Greylond
2011-03-28, 07:45 PM
Do not be afraid of a TPK, embrace it. You do not become good at anything by always winning, sometimes you have to be kicked in the teeth to know that your tactics are not sound...

My HackMaster players have learned not to ever Sleep in a Dungeon, and to never, ever trust anything...

Knaight
2011-03-28, 07:58 PM
This is D&D. The setting of D&D rather heavily implies that there are great heroes far beyond ordinary people, and by now it makes sense that the characters would be such. Given that they took preparations to see that they were hitting a moving convoy instead of a fortified building, and that there were only 20 of them they had no reason to expect the assault to be anything other than a cakewalk. That is hardly huge stupidity, and certainly doesn't need to be punished.

TroubleBrewing
2011-03-28, 08:03 PM
That is hardly huge stupidity, and certainly doesn't need to be punished.

Of course it's stupid. Sure, they opted not to attack the heavily fortified building, but they had 5 options aside from "glorious bloody melee" at their hands:


Mind, they did not do any recon on the convoy before attacking, they did not use the thieves guild for information, despite the fact that I told them the option is available, they did not use their pirate connections, they did not call the two people they know are seers, and they did not hire the mercenary band that works in the same city whom they have used to great effect before.

So... Frontal assault, no recon, no information gathering, no backup... Sounds like a TPK to me. One that this party desperately needs to prevent this kind of behavior in the future.

Doc Roc
2011-03-28, 08:09 PM
Besides, I'm with Knaight here. It wasn't the cleverest thing, but within the milieu of the traditional fantasy setting, it made sense. It may even have been in character. As to the rest, what game system? 3.x has a lot of mechanisms for capturing idiot-players in a non-lethal fashion. You can then send them on repentance quests.

Some of them are brutally humbling. Like Ye-Old-Solid-Fog + Lyre of Building. You may need a dimlock or similar in there too, or maybe public buildings just have significant interdiction fields.

Kalirren
2011-03-28, 08:11 PM
Make it clear that the city guard -does- intend to capture them. Given that you just laid out a whole list of reasons why they deserve the TPK, you should probably just give it to them if they choose the hard road.

If not, you probably have a nice session on hand where the monk bails everyone out of jail.

Doc Roc
2011-03-28, 08:13 PM
Make it clear that the city guard -does- intend to capture them. Given that you just laid out a whole list of reasons why they deserve the TPK, you should probably just give it to them if they choose the hard road.

If not, you probably have a nice session on hand where the monk bails everyone out of jail.

I'm still not convinced they deserved it. Train jobs are a staple of all sorts of fiction.

Kalirren
2011-03-28, 08:20 PM
Yeah, but train jobs usually involve planning. The planning here was notably sub-par.

Knaight
2011-03-28, 08:22 PM
I'm still not convinced they deserved it. Train jobs are a staple of all sorts of fiction.

I'm still not sure that the caravan should have had anyone that good guarding it. If this were some sort of gritty low fantasy game where even the best are in trouble when outnumbered I would be labeling the action stupid*, considering the genre this should succeed.

*At the very least hitting at night would be a good idea, I'd probably want poison on top of that. And a mare in heat, to mess up the horses one a half decent counter attack was mounted.

Kittenwolf
2011-03-28, 08:25 PM
I'm still not convinced they deserved it. Train jobs are a staple of all sorts of fiction.

Done intelligently they are. Frontal assault "Kill them all" style attacks are ignored or dismissed for precisely the reason the OP stated. They go wrong. Mal & the Serenity crew didn't go into the Train Job all guns blazing.

Had the PCs done a bit of recon to see what the convoy was, then maybe dropped a grease spell on the area to screw with the cart & guards, charged in with a handily prepared Teleport scroll and teleported the entire armored car containing their friends off elsewhere, *that* would have been epicly worthy of success.

To the OP:
Unless you're in a very brutal campaign, City Guards normally aren't killers, they're more likely to want to take the PCs alive.
As people have said, the guard are in an excellent position to capture or KO everyone bar maybe the Monk, who is likely to bolt.

So, simply have the guards KO and capture all bar the Monk, who runs. Then if the Monk is smart maybe he goes to those rebels attacking the prison, tells them what's going on and gets them to help lead a second (rather more intelligently planned) attack on the convoy (attack the caravan driver from a roof, kill him, leap onto the caravan and charge off with it?).

Assuming this goes well: the PCs manage to get out, alive but badly clobbered (and hopefully learning a valuable lesson), and are in complete debt to the rebels, opening up a "Hey, you guys, we're calling in a favor" adventure in the future.

olthar
2011-03-28, 08:26 PM
This is D&D. The setting of D&D rather heavily implies that there are great heroes far beyond ordinary people, and by now it makes sense that the characters would be such. Given that they took preparations to see that they were hitting a moving convoy instead of a fortified building, and that there were only 20 of them they had no reason to expect the assault to be anything other than a cakewalk. That is hardly huge stupidity, and certainly doesn't need to be punished.

Only 20? That's only 5:1 odds against the PCs. Even if you assume all of the guards are all cr5 against a bunch of 10th level PCs it is an EL14 fight. That means the PCs are behind. Hell, even if they are weaker than that you need to assume that the wizard is going to get targeted by a few melee types, which means casting will be difficult (2 rogues for example). Adding in the lack of actual combat prep, they kind of deserve the fruits of their labor. Yeah, they got the jailbreak to happen away from the jail, but that just means 20 guards instead of 30, 40 or 50. Clearly this isn't some low level nothing town because if it was then the 10th level PCs would walk into the jail say "give me <person x> or we'll kill you all" and be done with it.


I'm still not convinced they deserved it. Train jobs are a staple of all sorts of fiction.

This wasn't a train job, it was a jailbreak. They are slightly different.

General note, I wouldn't give them a choice. Those who are unconscious should be captured. Those who are up should be knocked out. The monk should figure out on his own that running away is his best bet. Otherwise, knock him out too. They are prisoner transport. Who cares if they pick up extra prisoners on the way.

Knaight
2011-03-28, 08:30 PM
Only 20? That's only 5:1 odds against the PCs. Even if you assume all of the guards are all cr5 against a bunch of 10th level PCs it is an EL14 fight. That means the PCs are behind. Hell, even if they are weaker than that you need to assume that the wizard is going to get targeted by a few melee types, which means casting will be difficult (2 rogues for example). Adding in the lack of actual combat prep, they kind of deserve the fruits of their labor. Yeah, they got the jailbreak to happen away from the jail, but that just means 20 guards instead of 30, 40 or 50. Clearly this isn't some low level nothing town because if it was then the 10th level PCs would walk into the jail say "give me <person x> or we'll kill you all" and be done with it. .

CR 5? A guard has no business being CR 5. CR 2 is pushing it, most of them shouldn't even be CR 1. Moreover the big thing about getting the jailbreak away from the jail means that they aren't fighting on the ground the enemy picked, but the ground they picked. That is huge, particularly when the ground the enemy picked is probably all sorts of fortified.

Kittenwolf
2011-03-28, 08:30 PM
I'm still not sure that the caravan should have had anyone that good guarding it. If this were some sort of gritty low fantasy game where even the best are in trouble when outnumbered I would be labeling the action stupid*, considering the genre this should succeed.


This is an extremely common mistake with DnD, and one that really gets on my nerves at times. Not every other person in the entire game world is a piddly little 2HD commoner.
Just because the PCs have hit lvl 10 doesn't mean they're uber badasses capable of obliterating 5:1 odds in a straight up fight with the city guard.

Now, if we were talking a small town where the "Guard" was made up of militia, sure it'd make sense for the PCs to cut them to pieces (well, unless it's a "Small town" in Faerun, in which case one of those militia is going to be a retired lvl 25 champion of Kord who turned to farming in his later years), but if we're talking a proper city where the guard are paid professionals trained in keeping law & order, what happened makes perfect sense.

TroubleBrewing
2011-03-28, 08:34 PM
I'm not arguing the genre here. I'm also not arguing that train jobs are a staple. (Heck, my first adventure was a train job.)

What I am saying is that a group that demonstrates this level of extraordinarily poor planning needs to earn themselves a Darwin award. Rewarding their incompetence by letting them get captured just reinforces this kind of behavior. "Spare the rod, spoil the child." They can learn a harsh lesson now, or never learn the value of a good, well-thought-out plan.

Knaight
2011-03-28, 08:51 PM
This is an extremely common mistake with DnD, and one that really gets on my nerves at times. Not every other person in the entire game world is a piddly little 2HD commoner.
Just because the PCs have hit lvl 10 doesn't mean they're uber badasses capable of obliterating 5:1 odds in a straight up fight with the city guard.

Now, if we were talking a small town where the "Guard" was made up of militia, sure it'd make sense for the PCs to cut them to pieces (well, unless it's a "Small town" in Faerun, in which case one of those militia is going to be a retired lvl 25 champion of Kord who turned to farming in his later years), but if we're talking a proper city where the guard are paid professionals trained in keeping law & order, what happened makes perfect sense.

The use of paid professionals justifies having the Fighter class instead of the Warrior. It doesn't justify every single member of the guard being able to personally kill monstrosities.

Kittenwolf
2011-03-28, 09:23 PM
The use of paid professionals justifies having the Fighter class instead of the Warrior. It doesn't justify every single member of the guard being able to personally kill monstrosities.

Why not?
The guard are transporting dangerous prisoners, so they're going to make sure that their best and most experienced men are guarding it.
If you prefer to run your campaigns as "Superpowered adventurers fight superpowered Villain in a world full of cannon fodder" that's fine, but that's not what the DMG city building rules state.

Doc Roc
2011-03-28, 09:27 PM
Why not?
The guard are transporting dangerous prisoners, so they're going to make sure that their best and most experienced men are guarding it.
If you prefer to run your campaigns as "Superpowered adventurers fight superpowered Villain in a world full of cannon fodder" that's fine, but that's not what the DMG city building rules state.

Even so, one can imagine a situation where it would be doable. I'd have done some recon, sure, but maybe the players were just tired, or worn out, or want to play hacky-and-slashy. Know your players, know your game.

Kittenwolf
2011-03-28, 09:34 PM
Even so, one can imagine a situation where it would be doable. I'd have done some recon, sure, but maybe the players were just tired, or worn out, or want to play hacky-and-slashy. Know your players, know your game.

That's the weird bit, the prep they did before the overall job (ie, organising the diversionary attack, leaking the details so the prisoners are moved, etc) was really good prep, and not the kind of thing you'd expect a hack & slash group to do.

Then it comes to the actual convoy assault and they do a complete 180 and charge in with weapons drawn...

Greylond
2011-03-28, 09:36 PM
Again, Players will never learn good tactics and planning by letting them get away with stuff like this. And I don't agree with the "City Guards would only captured them" angle. Is this a society based on Medieval culture? Then they would kill them, with no mercy.

Another_Poet
2011-03-28, 09:42 PM
As much as it hurts as a GM to do it sometimes the PCs are really just THAT stupid.

From reading your post it sounds like they had at least 5 good options that they did not take and more or less did the old "Screw it, he wont kill us".

And again, as much as it sucks sometimes things go bad for the PCs.

This is one of those cases. My oppinion? "Let the dice fall where they may"

I agree. TPK them, if that is what the dice decree. You are free and clear of guilt on this one. They chose their course.

If you save them ("deus ex machina," generally one of the worst DM moves) then you will just reinforce that they can never die. This will lead to equally lazy planning in the future.

byaku rai
2011-03-28, 09:42 PM
CR 5? A guard has no business being CR 5. CR 2 is pushing it, most of them shouldn't even be CR 1. Moreover the big thing about getting the jailbreak away from the jail means that they aren't fighting on the ground the enemy picked, but the ground they picked. That is huge, particularly when the ground the enemy picked is probably all sorts of fortified.

Why are you assuming that the prison guards are complete peons with idiotic supervisors? Imagine this: assuming that this is a fair-sized city, or at least that the prison services a fairly populous area (not a ridiculous assumption; prisons which aren't just the dungeons of castles would be relatively rare, so prisoners would be imported), the guards would be exposed to the whole bell curve of potential enemies/prisoners, from lvl1 commoners in there for debts to experienced mercenaries (squint and it reads "adventurers"). There are going to be jailbreaks from time to time, which means fighting, which means solid experience, the type players get. Aside from such unpredictable methods of leveling up, the guards will get a slow, steady grind of XP from just doing their duties. That slow grind doesn't mean that they don't level up at all; it means they just level up slowly. But then, that's why they're only level 5 rather than level instant-death-full-attack.

As for the other half of your statement, all the moving away from the jail did was even things slightly. As opposed to charging headlong into a heavily fortified structure, they charged headlong into a well-defended formation of elite, experienced guards. From a certain point of view, that actually tipped the scales away from them by giving the enemy room to maneuver and concentrate their fire on individuals, as opposed to having to deal with the party tank one or two at a time. In a small-group-versus-the-world scenario, like what many D&D encounters are, having the upper hand means reducing the enemy's primary strength: numbers. Bottlenecks such as the prison corridors work wonders for that, especially when it's high-levels versus low-levels.

I'm not saying that they definitely should have attacked the prison rather than force the convoy. I'm just suggesting that maybe the terrain played less in their favor than they might have hoped.

... OK, done ranting now....

aboyd
2011-03-29, 12:47 AM
I think using deus ex machina to save the PCs is a bad idea.
I agree.

I don't think that it has to be a TPK, however. Demetrius is a historical figure that supposedly attacked the Roman guard and was not executed -- he was held captive and forced to fight in an arena. So if that story is true, there is historical precedent for not immediately killing all the PCs.

To me, I might do something like this. I would make the guards bloodthirsty, and angry about the attack. But not to the point of murder. Or at least I wouldn't make that the inevitable conclusion. Instead, I'd have the guards thrilled at the idea of having captives in their jail system that they can retaliate against. They're enforcers of the law; let them enjoy the advantages that their position confers.

Perhaps when the game restarted, I would have the lead guard bellow on his turn, "Looks like we've got more slave labor, boys!" Or, "I'm gonna enjoy watching you waste away in a tiny little jail cell, maggot!" Or, "Well well, we have volunteers to pull the carts! Let's get some manacles around their necks!" And then a cheer from the guards as they go after the PCs with renewed enthusiasm. Maybe some guards busily haul away anyone already fallen.

I'd make the guards seem angry and eager to punish. This is partly acting; those of us here on the forum know that it could easily be a TPK instead of jail time. It's admittedly a bit of bluster layered on top of pulling a punch. However, if it's a historically accurate way to pull a punch, and if we can behave as though the guards see this not as pulling a punch but as winning (and bonus, maybe getting to torment the jerks who attacked them), then the players will not feel robbed on consequences. Instead, they'll probably feel that the DM is being pretty scarily mean & enthusiastic about beating them down. And that may be fodder for revenge fantasies & jailbreaks. Fun.

I would, however, allow the dice to "fall where they may" with regards to the captures & escapes during the remaining rounds of combat. If a PC bleeds out, I wouldn't undo that by DM fiat. I'd just shrug and see if the other PCs can be captured. I'm not averse to killing a PC for poor battle strategy. However, I also wouldn't force death to be the only option. Steer toward capture and kill anything that gets in the way of that. Heh.

:belkar:

Knaight
2011-03-29, 01:02 AM
Why are you assuming that the prison guards are complete peons with idiotic supervisors? Imagine this: assuming that this is a fair-sized city, or at least that the prison services a fairly populous area (not a ridiculous assumption; prisons which aren't just the dungeons of castles would be relatively rare, so prisoners would be imported), the guards would be exposed to the whole bell curve of potential enemies/prisoners, from lvl1 commoners in there for debts to experienced mercenaries (squint and it reads "adventurers"). There are going to be jailbreaks from time to time, which means fighting, which means solid experience, the type players get. Aside from such unpredictable methods of leveling up, the guards will get a slow, steady grind of XP from just doing their duties. That slow grind doesn't mean that they don't level up at all; it means they just level up slowly. But then, that's why they're only level 5 rather than level instant-death-full-attack.

An average level 5 guard is one who has been in life or death combats he had a decent chance of losing 52 times. These people should be far and few between, and the DMG demographics back this, and people of that ability can get better jobs than prison guard.

As far as idiotic supervisors go, they are already established as having sent a convoy through questionably controlled territory, and heavily implied to have not used outriders, decoy convoys, disguise as a caravan or something else not asking to be hit by special forces, or really having employed any significant counter measures whatsoever other than numbers. If this wasn't part of their job it could be attributed to naivete, but idiocy works pretty well for this.

Moreover, I'm considering the high fantasy genre. Within this genre honorable combat, simple assaults, and other tactics to use in actual confrontations are the norm. As such the planning stage was essentially over once it was manipulated to the point where a bunch of guards on a convoy were to be rushed from surprise using shock and awe tactics. This is exactly the sort of thing that works in high fantasy, and even in low fantasy isn't necessarily a bad idea, though the odds involved are just asking for trouble.


Why not?
The guard are transporting dangerous prisoners, so they're going to make sure that their best and most experienced men are guarding it.
If you prefer to run your campaigns as "Superpowered adventurers fight superpowered Villain in a world full of cannon fodder" that's fine, but that's not what the DMG city building rules state.
That's what D&D as a system states. Realistically a 3 on 1 is virtually guaranteed to be trouble, barring the absolute extremes such as a knight assaulting an untrained peasant levy. A 5 on 1 between the best swordsman in the world and a handful of people with basic training and some practice fights is usually going to go to the people with basic training. In short, realistically someone isn't as powerful in combat as a bunch of other people.

In D&D world, a level 10 person is theoretically able to kill at least 32 level 1s*. These people are both human, its merely that D&D through its mechanics creates a situation where some people are capable of slaying others en mass. These people should know that, and taking the fact that they count for dozens of people in a fight when planning combat is entirely reasonable, judging it dumb because the real world doesn't work that way is absurd. This is essentially the argument being posed here.

As for the assumption that I personally support that, wrong. The way D&D allows people to gain power completely disproportionate to what they ultimately are is one of my main sticking points, there is no way anyone should win a straight 20 on 4, there is no way anyone should be able to kill a "Gargantuan" or larger monster without siege weaponry, and in general a system that blatantly ignores realistic human limits and as such limits common humanity in the ways that it does is absolutely abhorrent.

*This is where CR starts breaking down to the point where it becomes pretty much any chosen number.

LordBlades
2011-03-29, 01:29 AM
IMHO I think some PCs have a pretty good chance of escaping.

A 10th level mage should have plenty of escape means at his disposal: invisibility, gaseous form, dimension door, teleport etc. so he should be able to get away.

The monk also, between tumble and high speed, he should be able tog et away from anything but the enemy mage (depending on what level he is).

The other 2 PCs are pretty much ****ed sadly, but, if the monk and mage get away, the guards would probably want to keep them alive, to find out who the other guys were, creating an opportunity for the rest of the party (with help eventually) to get them free.

aboyd
2011-03-29, 01:39 AM
An average level 5 guard is one who has been in life or death combats he had a decent chance of losing 52 times. These people should be far and few between, and the DMG demographics back this, and people of that ability can get better jobs than prison guard.
Uhhh... maybe. I'm looking at the DMG right now, and the average for a "capital city" as the OP put it (I'm equating that to a "large city") would be to have:

3 level 14 warriors
6 level 7 warriors
12 level 4 warriors
24 level 2 warriors
48 level 1 warriors

And there would be similar numbers, give or take a few levels, for the population of fighters, rangers, rogues, paladins, monks, and barbarians. All of that makes for pretty good martial power in the capital city.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the leader of the transport team was one of the level 7 warriors, and I wouldn't be surprised to find he has a level 4 "right hand man" or two. I would expect that the bulk of those in the caravan would be level 2, though. However, it also depends upon the dangerousness of those in the jail transport. If the jailbirds are also level 10 (just as the PCs are) then that's pretty high level and scary. I'd likely beef up the 20 guards, then. I'd throw in some wizards, paladins, fighters, etc. I'd keep the bulk of the guards at level 2, but I'd have maybe a half-dozen higher level leaders, then. I'd want at least one wizard of 5th level, so as to have access to 3rd level spells.

Overall, it does make sense that the majority of the population is low level, and that population should be easily tamed by some level 10 adventurers. However, citing the DMG as a source that proves that powerful NPCs are rare is probably not the best course. We can run the numbers and see that there should be a plethora of powerful people in a capital city. Still possible to defeat them, but at least it should give the level 10s a run for their money (and it seems to have done exactly that).

Knaight
2011-03-29, 02:03 AM
There is a lot of martial power there, but there is also much more than just the prison. Plus, they are going to keep most of the power at the prison at any given time, meaning that a 7th, a 4th or 2 and a bunch of 2nd level characters would make sense as convoy guards.

Garwain
2011-03-29, 02:04 AM
To give the players some credit, they did think about the situation. They did not factor in all parameters. More than often, the DM is better prepared, better informed about the player's resources than the players themselves.

Adding to that, the attitude 'DM won't kill us' is a bubble that sometimes needs to be bursted.

Zen Master
2011-03-29, 07:59 AM
What are your thoughts?

Well - kill them. Next scene: So ... this is the afterlife. Your spirits look about in confusion, not failing to take in the bloody mess of a body that used to serve you so well.

You wait.

You wait some more ....

There is no bright light, no call to move on. You begin to wonder if you have become a ghost - but if that is the case, so has [Player Y], whom you see hovering over by the armored cart.

Slowly, you become aware of a subtle, but increasing pull, a lure. Your soul is being called somewhere - a dark and ominous feeling fills you. Something is wrong - very, very wrong.

Que new sub-adventure about a local necromancer who is herding the souls of all the recently dead in town for sinister plots.

At the end of the sub-adventure, they may of may not regain life as a result of whatever.

Any good?

Another_Poet
2011-03-29, 11:16 AM
Que new sub-adventure about a local necromancer who is herding the souls of all the recently dead in town for sinister plots.

At the end of the sub-adventure, they may of may not regain life as a result of whatever.

Any good?

SO brilliant. Love it.

Murphy80
2011-03-29, 01:59 PM
Long-time reader, first time poster here.

...
So, the 4 PCs (10th level) attacked their armored convoy with a couple of people they identified as mages, and a giant ogre fighter in the lead, and all 20 guards on horseback. Mind, they did not do any recon on the convoy before attacking, they did not use the thieves guild for information, despite the fact that I told them the option is available, they did not use their pirate connections, they did not call the two people they know are seers, and they did not hire the mercenary band that works in the same city whom they have used to great effect before.

We ended last session with 12 prison guards, their two commanders, a mage that was hiding in the armored trucks, and the two rogues that had disguised themselves as mages out in the open all alive and relatively unharmed, the ogre prison guard badly hurt, but standing.
...


Welcome 1st time poster.

Unless the prisoners were known to have such powerful associates or be ultrapowerful themselves, then I wonder why such a large and powerful force was sent on a simple prisoner move (even given the rumors of a jail break). If they had access to Feeblemind(5th level), then they should have access to Teleport(also 5th level). Why didn't they just Teleport the prisoners to the new jail? However, it does seem like the pc's failed to properly set up an ambush. I say capture those that don't run away and if some happen to die, so be it. Though it might be reasonable for the guards to switch to nonlethal damage. Then use that as a springboard for further adventure, either jail break or the classic, "we will free you if you do us this favor/quest/etc..."

I would like to know why these prisoners had such powerful protection.

Delwugor
2011-03-29, 05:45 PM
Again, Players will never learn good tactics and planning by letting them get away with stuff like this. And I don't agree with the "City Guards would only captured them" angle. Is this a society based on Medieval culture? Then they would kill them, with no mercy.
I'd consider it very poor tactics for the City Guards to just kill with no mercy. I'd also consider an unimaginative thing for a GM to do.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-29, 06:02 PM
I'd consider it very poor tactics for the City Guards to just kill with no mercy. I'd also consider an unimaginative thing for a GM to do.

I would imagine this would be dependant on circumstances. Killing the PCs if the PCs have slaughtered a bunch of them in cold blood? Reasonable. Claimable as self defence, in that case.

However, capture would be a reasonable default.

TroubleBrewing
2011-03-30, 07:17 AM
It would be, unless the PC's drew first blood. In a real-life prisoner transport, the police don't mess around with non-lethal responses. Those shotguns aren't just for show.

Morghen
2011-03-30, 09:19 AM
1. Yes, 20 guards with magic backup seems like a lot. But they would have known what they were facing if they'd done ANY reconnaissance. Good grief, cast Fly and cruise over the caravan at 500 feet.
2. It doesn't HAVE to be a TPK, but somebody needs to die for this blunder. Have the ogre mash the ranger and then the leader of the caravan calls for them to surrender. ANY offensive action after that results in a "No Prisoners" situation.

Holy crap. I just saw this:

However, they were told there would be a minimum of 20 guards, plus the guard's superiors using armored transports.Never mind. To quote Johnny Ringo: "Burn 'em, Ike. Burn 'em all."

You're a guard for the jail in Country X's capital city. You're transporting prisoners across town because there are RUMORS ABOUT A JAIL BREAK. Some people show up and kill nearly half of your pals. You're going to worry about taking prisoners? I don't think so.

*Ranger - They're not going to worry about providing medical aid. But they probably won't burn the body to ash, either. They'll strip the body of stuff, kick it into the gutter and report it when they get back.
*Knight - I can see him getting thrown in the dirt and chained up. But if he tries to make any kind of offensive action he should get a knife in the face.
*Mage - He should get killed. He's supposed to be the smart one in the group. How did he let two rogues get into melee range? The guards know he's a caster, right? If he surrenders SILENTLY, he lives. If he opens his mouth, kill him.
*Monk - If he keeps fighting, the guards aren't going to use non-lethal force. HE'S TRYING TO KILL THEM.

TroubleBrewing
2011-03-30, 09:31 AM
*SNip*

This. Really well thought out, concise, realistic. Everything a good answer needs. It's how I'd play it out.

Morghen
2011-03-30, 07:54 PM
Morghen is a genius.Thank you. I'm very good at nerdery.

Zen Master
2011-03-31, 02:45 AM
SO brilliant. Love it.

Heh - why, thank you :redface:

Zieu
2011-03-31, 07:43 PM
Have the guards start making grapple checks, then start dealing subdual damage (choking the PCs out). Shouldn't be too much of a problem since the guards clearly outnumber the PCs..

Drogorn
2011-04-02, 01:37 PM
The guards are under attack by a force which killed half of them. They aren't going to screw around trying to capture.