I forgot... does Knowledge Devotion affect ranged spells?

[drebb]

I mean, for the attack roll and damage roll?

Or just the attack roll?

I've been out of the 3.5 loop for a while and now I'm rules hazy.

[Keld Denar]

Most things like that specify attack rolls and weapon damage rolls. Even if a spell is "weaponlike", possessing both an attack roll and damage, its still not a weapon. So, you'd get a boost to hit with a Scorching Ray, but no additional damage.

Again, check each source, since some are worded differently than this.

EDIT: See discussion below.

[Cartigan]

Most things like that specify attack rolls and weapon damage rolls. Even if a spell is "weaponlike", possessing both an attack roll and damage, its still not a weapon. So, you'd get a boost to hit with a Scorching Ray, but no additional damage.

Again, check each source, since some are worded differently than this.

Weaponlike spells count as weapons for all effective purposes I thought. (Like qualifying for the WF/WS line)

[Keld Denar]

But you don't get the damage boost from something like, Inspire Courage (and by extension, Dragonfire Inspiration) on weaponlike spells.

[Cartigan]

But you don't get the damage boost from something like, Inspire Courage (and by extension, Dragonfire Inspiration) on weaponlike spells.

What? Really? I am pretty sure you should get those anyway since they are attacks, weapon-like or not.

[Malevolence]

Knowledge Devotion works on all damage. That does include spells. Of course adding +1 to +5 isn't a lot, but it's there.

Most effects do specify weapon damage, in which case it doesn't work. Knowledge Devotion does not.

[Cog]

Knowledge Devotion gives a bonus on "attack rolls and damage rolls". Inspire Courage's bonus is on "attack and weapon damage rolls".

The Rules Compendium's take on weaponlike spells:
...can threaten critical hits, can be used with precision damage (see page 42), and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses. Since a weaponlike spell isn’t actually a weapon, Strength modifiers on damage rolls and magical effects that increase weapon damage don’t increase damage from a weaponlike spell unless the spell’s description says otherwise.
Emphasis added.

[Keld Denar]

Ah, so Knowledge Devotion would, but Inspire Courage, which is SU in nature, would not. Thats where I got that from.

Makes sense.

[gbprime]

Interesting. So in the case of Melf's Acid Arrow, you'd get a bonus to hit and a damage bonus every time you roll damage.

And I'd assume that spells requiring no hit roll still get a damage bonus.

Now I assume that means that if you fire off five magic missiles, whether it's a single target or multiple targets, you'd get the damage bonus just once, similar to Warmage Edge, yes?

Hmm.... stacks with Warmage Edge too. I sense... optimization. :smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

No...spells that don't have an attack roll are not "weaponlike", and thus would never benefit from something like that. Magic Missile isn't "weaponlike", but Acid Arrow is. I think you'd only get the bonus damage on the first hit as well, but not the duration damage. The damage is a function of the hit, not of the spell itself.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ah, so Knowledge Devotion would, but Inspire Courage, which is SU in nature, would not. Thats where I got that from.

Makes sense.

Err why not? I am not really understanding.

[Cog]

I'm not sure. It would depend on whether Knowledge Devotion is a result of knowing how to aim, or just understanding how to hurt a given sort of creature - that, say, if you tweak your Fireball just so, it has a better chance of crisping that dragon's scales. There's no mention of it being precision damage, after all, and it works just fine against constructs, plants, and the like.

That said, I would lean toward it applying only to effects with an attack roll as well. I'm just not convinced it's RAW. If you're following the weaponlike restriction, though, things like the Acid Arrow example would only add the bonus with the first strike; it doesn't say to repeat the damage, it merely does additional damage in later rounds that happen to be expressed in the same number of dice.

[gbprime]

Err why not? I am not really understanding.

Because of what Cog quoted above.


magical effects that increase weapon damage don’t increase damage from a weaponlike spell unless the spell’s description says otherwise.

Knowledge Devotion is an extraordinary ability (non-magical), Inspire Courage is supernatural (magical).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wouldn't that depend on the wording of DFI? becuase AFAIR it adds damage dice, it doesn't increase the damage as the wording from thr RC. But maybe I am reading it too literal.

[dextercorvia]

Wouldn't that depend on the wording of DFI? becuase AFAIR it adds damage dice, it doesn't increase the damage as the wording from thr RC. But maybe I am reading it too literal.

From page 85 or CArc, which I believe is what the RC is pulling from:

"All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (such as the bard’s inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) don’t increase damage from a weaponlike spell."

[Dusk Eclipse]

From page 85 or CArc, which I believe is what the RC is pulling from:

"All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (such as the bard’s inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) don’t increase damage from a weaponlike spell."

Ah, that does clear things better.

[drebb]

Hmmmmm. What I glean from this is that... no... I don't get the damage bonus, just the attack bonus.

However.... there are a lot of spells that really do mimic weapon attacks... or spells that practically ARE WEAPONS that you conjure up.

Thunderlance, Prismatic Bow, Cloud of Knives, just to name a few.

I can't see how Knowledge Devotion's damage wouldn't apply to that.

But... I can't see how it wouldn't apply to a well-aimed Sound Lance, either.

Bah. I hate ambiguous rules.

[drebb]

Graaaah! See? It's this kind of double-speak that I'm talking about...

The RC. First it says "Since a weapon-like spell isn't actually a weapon, Strength modifiers on damage rolls and magical effects that increase weapon damage don't increase the weapon-like spell unless the spell's description says otherwise."

But ON THE SAME PAGE, under "Multiple Hits" the RC says "Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster receives a bonus on damage rolls or some form of extra damage (such as precision damage) with such spells, the extra damage applies only on the first attack, whether it hits or not."

SO! My question now, fellow 3.5ers, is where a weaponlike spell is going to get a bonus on damage rolls that isn't a magical effect that increases weapon damage.

Or, failing this, can someone just kick me in the head?

[drebb]

Yeah... so, since Knowledge Devotion just says "damage rolls" and not "weapon damage rolls" like Inspire Courage and Prayer... I think it's safe to say it would increase a spell damage roll. (But only once, of course. Not for each individual acid arrow or each chill touch or whatever.)

[Keld Denar]

Knowledge Devotion (damage) should apply to weapon-like spells, just like sneak attack does. It wouldn't apply to non-weaponlike spells like Fireball, though, since such spells don't recieve any benefit from feats or abilities that affect weapons. KD grants bonus damage while Inspire Courage does not due to the fact that the former is from an EX source (a feat), and the latter is from a SU source, which means its magical.

[dextercorvia]

Would Hunter's Eye not apply its SA bonus to Ranged Touch spells then, since it is a magical source of extra damage?

[Veyr]

You all seem to be missing that Inspire Courage says it increases "weapon damage" while Knowledge Devotion (and Hunter's Eye and Sneak Attack) increase just "damage". The Su vs. Ex thing seems like a red herring here.

[Malevolence]

Yeah... so, since Knowledge Devotion just says "damage rolls" and not "weapon damage rolls" like Inspire Courage and Prayer... I think it's safe to say it would increase a spell damage roll. (But only once, of course. Not for each individual acid arrow or each chill touch or whatever.)

Exactly.

If it says weapon damage, it affects weapon damage, including weapon like spells.

If it just says damage, it affects everything. Want a minor damage boost to your low damage Fireball? Have at it.

[Quietus]

You all seem to be missing that Inspire Courage says it increases "weapon damage" while Knowledge Devotion (and Hunter's Eye and Sneak Attack) increase just "damage". The Su vs. Ex thing seems like a red herring here.

Yeah, I don't think it has anything to do with Su vs. Ex. The way I'm looking at it, we basically have three classes of situations :

Damaging Spells. This includes your fireballs, lightning bolts, and magic missiles.
Weapon-like spells. These are your melf's acid arrows, scorching rays, and rays of frost.
Weapons. Any time you hit someone with a sword, club, bow, whatever.

The difference between a simple damaging spell and a weapon-like spell is that the weapon-like spells require an attack roll of some sort. This is why you can do things like sneak attack with the weapon-like spells, when you can't with a magic missile. Weapon-like spells benefit from bonus damage (sometimes, I'll go into this later); simple damaging spells do not, unless the source says otherwise.

Bonus damage is generally given in one of two ways. Either it's a bonus to damage, or it's a bonus to weapon damage. That one little word is the source of a lot of confusion. If it's a bonus to weapon damage, it only applies when you strike an opponent with a weapon - a sword, club, bow, whatever. Inspire Courage, Prayer, and Dragonfire Inspiration all fall under this category. If it's just bonus damage, you can apply it to any effect that requires an attack roll - weapons, as above, plus ray of frost, scorching ray, etc. Sneak attack and Knowledge Devotion give this sort of bonus damage.

So you get things like...
Simple damaging spells like Fireball : No attack roll, no bonus damage (unless it's specifically called out)
Weapon-like spells, like ray of frost : These have attack rolls, so they apply bonus damage, but not bonus weapon damage. They act like weapons, but are not really weapons. Spells like Melf's Acid Arrow and Cloud of Knives (or whatever it is that lets you fire one knife/round) will only apply this bonus to the damage from the first attack roll made, regardless of whether it hits or not.
Weapons : Get all bonus damage and weapon bonus damage boosts.


TL;DR : Yes, knowledge devotion adds to the damage on spells, but only if they have an attack roll, and only to the damage from the first attack roll, regardless of whether it hit or not.

[dextercorvia]

I believe that is only the first in each round. Cloud of Knives would receive Know: Devotion on the first attack in each round. The quote begins, "If a spell allows more than one attack in a round...."

[MeeposFire]

You all seem to be missing that Inspire Courage says it increases "weapon damage" while Knowledge Devotion (and Hunter's Eye and Sneak Attack) increase just "damage". The Su vs. Ex thing seems like a red herring here.

Agreed, whether the source is magical or not has no direct bearing on this. The language of the bonus does.

[Cog]

So you get things like...
Simple damaging spells like Fireball : No attack roll, no bonus damage (unless it's specifically called out)
Weapon-like spells, like ray of frost : These have attack rolls, so they apply bonus damage, but not bonus weapon damage. They act like weapons, but are not really weapons. Spells like Melf's Acid Arrow and Cloud of Knives (or whatever it is that lets you fire one knife/round) will only apply this bonus to the damage from the first attack roll made, regardless of whether it hits or not.
Weapons : Get all bonus damage and weapon bonus damage boosts.
This works for me. I'm no longer concerned that my first instinct wasn't right. So, basically, Knowledge Devotion follows rules like those for Weapon Focus(/Specialization): Ray Spell/Touch Spell.