Is this gonna break the game?

[Pigkappa]

I'm DMing in a game for a party that's currently at level 5 (someone is nearly 6) and we are going to start Ravenloft soon.

Three players aren't experienced (2 of them had never played before); the other 3 didn't care to optimize up to now (and chose a Bard, a Paladin and a Rogue who didn't do anything too good/bad).


The rogue died and I'm afraid his new character can outshine (possibly extremely outshine) any other one. He's a Cleric4/Barbarian1 (and will become Cleric5/Barb1 later), the deity is Kord, domains Strength and Luck. He's got 8 ranks in Craft + instruments so he can build a complete armor made of mithral for 1/3 of the price. He uses a spiked chain, has decent Strength and Power Attack.
I asked him if he thought this was balanced with respect to the other unoptimized party members and he thinks it is. After I complained again, he told me that to make it weaker he won't cast Divine Favor too often but I really don't think that's the problem.

Can this turn out ok or should I heavily nerf him before he enters the party?

[gbprime]

The rogue died and I'm afraid his new character can outshine (possibly extremely outshine) any other one. He's a Cleric4/Barbarian1 (and will become Cleric5/Barb1 later), the deity is Kord, domains Strength and Luck. He's got 8 ranks in Craft + instruments so he can build a complete armor made of mithral for 1/3 of the price. He uses a spiked chain, has decent Strength and Power Attack.

Don't let him craft the armor at 1/3 price. Tell him that regardless of how he obtained the item, it's VALUE is what is listed in the book, and that's what portion of his starting wealth he has to allocate to it.

Otherwise he's just a spiked chain build. The usual options apply... grapple, trip, disarm, or shoot him.

[MammonAzrael]

Don't nerf him, it isn't fun.

The character will be a hitting machine, does he have leap attack? Is his level in barbarian giving him the pounce ACF? The fact that he is wielding a spiked chain is confusing, as I didn't get the sense that he is a tripper build. What is his focus? I can't tell you how broken he'll be without better knowing what he is focusing on. Gut reaction says that the cleric is just so good compared to the other classes in play that he will be better.

As for the mithril, just tell him he can't find enough to make the plate. Additionally, just how long is he planning on taking to forge the armor? What is his craft score? Seems like it would be maybe 11 (9 ranks + 2 MW item). In which case if he took ten every week making his armor it would take him just over 10 years to make mithril full plate.

[Telonius]

Yeah, that level of Barbarian is confusing me as well. Fast movement seems to be one purpose for it, but then he goes and takes levels of Cleric that give him access to heavy armor (which would kill fast movement). Rage would improve his strength (apropos to a Strength god) but using it would kill his casting for 3+con rounds. So all he has to show from a lost caster level and a lower Will save, is: a few extra skill points, a few extra hitpoints, and proficiency in martial weapons. He'd have been better off with a level of Fighter (for the feat) or Ranger (for the skill points and favored enemy).

He's also used one feat on Spiked Chain proficiency, and another on Power Attack. Power Attack is pretty nice on a Cleric, but that's two of seven (eight if he's human) feats in a 20-level build spoken for already. If he's going the Improved Trip route like I think he's going to, that will be two more feats taken up (Combat Expertise and Improved Trip). To really get the most out of a Spiked Chain, you also need Combat Reflexes; that's another Feat out the window. While there is still some room for some ubercharger or DMM shenanigans, this won't start showing up until the later levels, at which point he'll be a high-level full caster anyway.

So, due to (expected) poor feat choice, he'll probably be about as powerful as a Cleric18 at level 20. He can certainly still break the game in half if he wants to (and if you let him), but not any more so if he'd just gone Cleric20.

[Sacrieur]

He's actually dumbing himself down by taking levels in barb since he's losing caster levels.

[Yora]

Though some alarm bells ring when looking over the character, I don't there's a particular danger of ending up with CoDzilla. There are some things that appear in several powergaming builds, but since he mixes them all up into one character, it doesn't seem to be any of those exploits.
But he's still mostly a cleric. That alone can already be a very powerful choice.

[Pigkappa]

Yeah, that level of Barbarian is confusing me as well. Fast movement seems to be one purpose for it, but then he goes and takes levels of Cleric that give him access to heavy armor (which would kill fast movement).

That is the point of mithral armor. An heavy armor made out of mithral is considered a medium armor, so he still has the fast movement ability.

Also, he knows very well that I'm not going to accept divine metamagic or anything like that. At the beginning of the game I asked them to stay in core (I allowed a few out of core things later, but nothing really good) and to avoid breaking the game abusing the unbalanced spells (e.g. Polymorph).

[Cartigan]

The Barbarian level doesn't really make sense unless he plans to do something wacky with it in the future..

[MammonAzrael]

Well first off, I just have to say that things outside of core (barring dragon mag are generally more balanced than core. Heck, what you're worried about is a core build here, and I doubt you'd be worried if he was taking Favored Soul or Beguiler or Spelltheif (ToB would be a little much though, given that these are their strongest levels).

Anyways, my previous points/question stand, but otherwise I agree with Yora. It seems like he is mixing and matching several different builds. Which is only going to weaken him. Fast movement is nothing to really worry about, but the fact that it'll take him over 10 years to forge the mithril armor should be a serious note. The level of barbarian would only be scary if he was taking the ACF that granted pounce.

And considering that he doesn't have a bead of karma yet...just hit him with some dispel magics if he is getting out of hand.

[Veyr]

Heh, "stay in Core" and "avoid broken options" seem like contradictory rules... very little of the PHB's options manages to avoid being brokenly-powerful or brokenly-weak...

Anyway, double-check the crafting time on that armor. Mundane crafting is very cheap, but the crafting time is ludicrous. Figure he takes 10 on the Craft (Armorsmithing) check — how high a DC can he hit every day? He probably doesn't have more than 14 Int in that build, so it looks to me that he's got a +2 (Int) +8 (ranks) +2 (tools) modifier, or +14. Take-10 for 24. The DC of the armor is 18; the Masterwork component is DC 20.

Thus, we have this:
18*24=432
20*24=480

The price of the armor in Silver Pieces is 105,000; the Masterwork component is 1,500, so the non-masterwork base cost is 103,500 sp.

Now we have:
103,500/432=239 weeks 5 days 7 hours
1,500/480=3 weeks 1 day 2 hours

That comes to a total of 243 weeks, and 1 hour. That's 1,701 days, which is four years and about eight months.

So yeah, tell him to have fun with that.

[2xMachina]

That is the point of mithral armor. An heavy armor made out of mithral is considered a medium armor, so he still has the fast movement ability.

Also, he knows very well that I'm not going to accept divine metamagic or anything like that. At the beginning of the game I asked them to stay in core (I allowed a few out of core things later, but nothing really good) and to avoid breaking the game abusing the unbalanced spells (e.g. Polymorph).

That doesn't really solve it though.

I should say the Barb is the dip, and 1 lvl dip for 10' speed doesn't seem that great.

[Pigkappa]

That comes to a total of 243 weeks, and 1 hour. That's 1,701 days, which is four years and about eight months.


Since this is a new character, he can still say he made it before joining the group... The armor isn't the main issue anyway; if he can't have it, he'll just switch to medium armor and save the 3000 gp cost of the mithral to buy some protective item. He's losing 1 AC at most for that.

Iirc the barbarian level is also for the martial weapon proficiency. He plans to have some backup martial weapons later (and likely wants to join some PrC but he didn't ask me about that because I was a little upset already).


Maybe I didn't emphasize enough the rest of the party's experience. Some of them have literally never played before.

[Warlawk]

Don't let him craft the armor at 1/3 price. Tell him that regardless of how he obtained the item, it's VALUE is what is listed in the book, and that's what portion of his starting wealth he has to allocate to it.


Here's my take on this. He can craft the armor for 1/3 the listed price in the PHB. The material cost for mithral from the DMG is simply the cost for materials and is completely independent of the basic armor cost listed in the PHB. So yes, he can use his craft skill to craft armor at the reduced cost, but he still has to pay full price for exceptional materials.

I believe that's the way it is intended to be done anyways, but par for the course with 3.X RAW can be a bit sketchy on this point.

[MammonAzrael]

Maybe I didn't emphasize enough the rest of the party's experience. Some of them have literally never played before.

If you're that worried about it, just tell him no. He can play that character in a different campaign, but for this game he has to choose something else, which you must approve. You're the DM, you can do that. In fact, if you're worried about him outshining everyone else, I'd say it's your duty to do so.

[Noneoyabizzness]

...

That's so ravenloft

Ok its a barbarian cleric... in ravenloft.
There is so many hotbuttons in the concept that armor will not protect him from.

[Tyger]

Since this is a new character, he can still say he made it before joining the group... The armor isn't the main issue anyway; if he can't have it, he'll just switch to medium armor and save the 3000 gp cost of the mithral to buy some protective item. He's losing 1 AC at most for that.

Iirc the barbarian level is also for the martial weapon proficiency. He plans to have some backup martial weapons later (and likely wants to join some PrC but he didn't ask me about that because I was a little upset already).


Maybe I didn't emphasize enough the rest of the party's experience. Some of them have literally never played before.

There is absolutely nothing to prevent you, as the DM, from simply saying "No, you can't make use of those skills pregame to get around the WBL guidelines" and in fact, it should be encouraged. Did your bard character get to start with extra money that (s)he had earned playing on street corners, per the rules for making money with Perform? Did the rogue get to start with the extra money that they made with their Disable Device / Open Lock / Sleight of Hand skills used to steal? I'm guessing the answer to both of those is no. So why does the crafter get to play fast and loose with it?

At higher level, or at a higher group optimization level, I wouldn't worry about it, but at the level of both that you are referring to, I'd put my foot down.

As for the build, yeah, its already been mentioned above, its got elements that are interesting, but they are a bit too scattered to really present a challenge for you as DM. Sounds like you aren't afraid to say no (your reference on saying no to DMM shenanigans is pretty clear) so you're well on your way. Of course, and even more importantly, don't be afraid to say yes a lot too. :smallbiggrin:

[Veyr]

I'm so confused now: what, exactly, is supposed to be potentially game-breaking? Clerics are a very powerful class, but if you just meant "is a Cleric going to break my game?", then the answer is that it depends. I mean, Paladin's a terrible class, Core-only Bard is similarly awful (a bit better, but still bad), and Rogue has some issues, while a Cleric is still excellent. So there's an issue there, but only if the player knows how to play one powerfully, and does so.

The fact that the player dipped Barbarian for Rage, Martial Weapon Proficiency, and Fast Movement suggests that he does not, in fact, know how to build a Cleric optimally, since that's a terrible choice; none of those things is worth a spellcasting level by any stretch of the imagination.

Is crafting going to break your game? Probably not. A Mithral Full-plate's quite good at level 5, but nothing game-changing, as you yourself noted.

But what, exactly, has you worried?

[Pigkappa]

But what, exactly, has you worried?

The spiked chain combined with Power Attack. At very low optimization, just using a 2 handed weapon with Power Attack is a solid choice in my opinion. I'm afraid that using a 2 handed weapon with Power Attack with reach and the ability to make a lot of attack of opportunities (that is, 1/round considering he threatens a big area) makes this character stronger than the paladin or the rogue. I don't know how much this easy-AOO-mechanic can influence the game.

I still think I'm going to let him use this character and hope this doesn't turn out to be too bad. I need him on my side to solve the other party's problem (a stupid player who made an evil Rogue-to-be-Assassin when I asked them to be Good, and he's having several problems with the Paladin).

[Veyr]

I... disagree. If the other players can't keep up with that (I mean, this is the most basic of optimization here), I feel like you ought to be helping them out rather than looking to nerf him. Just my opinion.

[MammonAzrael]

I agree with Veyr. If your worry is that he might get more attacks of opportunity, without even Combat Reflexes...

This isn't a case of his character needing to be toned down. This is a case where you need to help the other players understand the basics of the game. Combing Power Attack with a two handed weapon is the most basic optimization one can get.

[HappyBlanket]

Two handed reach weapon, AoO, and Power Attack don't make a broken character. I really wouldn't consider that to be optimized.

...I mean, I just made my first character a few weeks ago on PbP, and I already have that set up (cept with a few movement skill tricks and Shock Trooper). It's pretty basic; calling it optimized is like calling a pure wizard optimized.

[Sacrieur]

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

Cleric can already use heavy armor, I doubt that his dex bonus is more than +2, he doesn't suffer from spell penalty, movement speed changes +10 ft., and armor check penalty isn't a big deal.

His cleric would benefit from at most +2 AC (from dex) and -3 armor check penalty. Additionally, his armor would be 1/2 weight and he would be able to move at normal speed. And please note the extra movement speed required a level dip in Barb, which is not an optimization, it is a waste.

I'm failing to see what this huge discussion is about. I am really quite confused. And if he wants to drop the 3000 gp to craft his mithral armor than by all means, don't try to nerf his 1/3 cost, that's just pure unfair to the player, especially since it isn't his fault the other party members are playing such low tiers.

--

He's a bloody cleric for crying outloud. He's going to spending his time casting spells, not smashing stuff. And if he doesn't, than he'll be playing a tier 1 class at at tier 4/5 level.

[Telonius]

Remember, he also has to actually hit with the Power Attack/AoO for the extra damage to matter. He's not going to have enough room in that build for Shock Trooper, so using Power Attack is going to decrease his to-hit. If he isn't doing anything ridiculous like persisting Divine Power, then that's going to be a bit harder for him to do. His total attack bonus is probably going to be somewhere around the Rogue's, maybe one higher because of the level of Barbarian. When you're starting at 3/4 BAB, that gets ineffective fairly quickly. (It's still usually worth it for Power Attacking 2-3, but much beyond that and you're looking at a miss on anything other than a 20).

[Pigkappa]

Cleric can already use heavy armor, I doubt that his dex bonus is more than +2, he doesn't suffer from spell penalty, movement speed changes +10 ft., and armor check penalty isn't a big deal.

His cleric would benefit from at most +2 AC (from dex) and -3 armor check penalty. Additionally, his armor would be 1/2 weight and he would be able to move at normal speed. And please note the extra movement speed required a level dip in Barb, which is not an optimization, it is a waste.

I'm failing to see what this huge discussion is about. I am really quite confused. And if he wants to drop the 3000 gp to craft his mithral armor than by all means, don't try to nerf his 1/3 cost, that's just pure unfair to the player, especially since it isn't his fault the other party members are playing such low tiers.

--

He's a bloody cleric for crying outloud. He's going to spending his time casting spells, not smashing stuff. And if he doesn't, than he'll be playing a tier 1 class at at tier 4/5 level.

Yeah, ok, I get it. I never said I was worried about the barbarian speed and I don't think the mithral armor is an issue. I just thought that Cleric (i.e. solid casting class) + spiked chain (i.e. very solid in melee) could be too much. I don't really think that much better than this can be done in core at low to mid levels with a DM who prevents the abuse of some of the most abuseable spells (shapechanging for example, the summon lines if necessary...).

Anyway, is really the cleric a tier 1 class in core-only at this level? What spells should he be casting? I can see some nice buffs and a few SoSs but nothing really astonishing...

[Malevolence]

Core means high tiers are firmly stuck in high tiers, and low tiers are firmly stuck in low tiers. So yes, core only Clerics will wreck things. In fact they will wreck things more than if you allow absolutely everything, because bringing in everything brings in more Cleric counters, and caster counters than things that help them.

If he's beatsticking instead, he's holding back considerably.

[MammonAzrael]

So, in short: No, this should not break your game. Less than playing a normal cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard would, in fact.

[The Cat Goddess]

Let's not forget that some of what makes a Cleric a true monster in melee is non-Core. It really starts getting crazy-difficult when you're mixing stuff like Barbarian in, since (as everyone has said) you're watering-down your focus.

If you're worried about his AoO's... send two monsters in at him. An even semi-intelligent monster that uses weapons is going to know to send minions after the guy with the spiked chain before closing in to melee range himself. :smallbiggrin:

[aboyd]

Anyway, is really the cleric a tier 1 class in core-only at this level?
EDIT: Yes. We could discuss why in a separate thread for this general question, if interested.

[VirOath]

Sounds as if he is looking to bash things. Why? Barb dip for MWP, faster move speed, and seeking a good AC while being able to melee well (PA+Spiked Chain)

Reality is, if that is what he is playing, right now he is sitting on the level of a pure Fighter with a good strength score.

Yes, a caster can break games, or a caster can buff themselves to melee well, but rarely is a cleric built for both.

In all honesty, you have nothing to worry about. Right now, unless he buffs himself before combat, he is a fighter/barb with 1 BAB less, so less PA damage and less feats. Without DMM the all day CoDzilla doesn't come into play.

And you said it was core only anyways.

[erikun]

Your player is not going to break the game any more than a Power Attack charging Fighter or a 20 STR Barbarian. Yes, he can magically buff himself up to compariable levels, but his need to focus on Wisdom will mean his Strength/Constitution are lower than the straight meleers. And if it isn't, then he can't learn spells above a certain level.

As for if a powerful, dedicated meleer will break your game - try to keep combat interesting, rather than just throw one big CR monster at them all the time. I've found that while such characters can quickly destroy single obstacles, they aren't that great at taking out groups or individuals with some distance between them.

Your player doesn't seem to be using Improved Trip/Combat Reflexes or Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) either, which are the two most common optimizations I'd expect to see from such a character.

[Pigkappa]

There's no persisting in core. Doesn't exist. The planning domain isn't in core.

All of those things apply if you also think he can *play* in an optimized way, throwing away all the fluff. Most campaigns (mine in particular) require the party to be good to turn out well, so there are no undead to command.

Stone Shape can allow you to pass one wall and water breathing can be useful sometimes. That doesn't seem too bad anyway and will work rarely, so it won't make the rest of the party feel useless.

Speak with Dead is nice but very situational. If the corpse is damaged the answers are cryptic; this can be fun and still useful.

The glyph of warding can be useful too, but it has a material cost so they won't spam it, and still isn't perfect. Recently they slept in a dungeon setting up a decent defense and barring the door, and I just had a mob throw a torch at the door to start a fire. The glyph wouldn't prevent that.


All these spells and abilities are good, but not really much better than what a smart rogue or bard can do (except the undead thing which is impossibile for a Good cleric). I think the power difference is tolerable in core...

[erikun]

Far more practical at 5th level would be Bestow Curse, Create Food and Water, Dispel Magic, and all of the Remove [affliction] spells. There are several other fun ones, although I wouldn't expect a cleric to be animating that many skeletons for wandering around.

I thought there were more buffs at that level; I guess I'm not as familiar with the cleric's spell list as I'd like.

[aboyd]

Pigkappa, if you think all the things I wrote either don't apply or are not game breaking, then I'm not sure why we've even bothered with a 2 page thread about "breaking the game" over much, much less.

The bottom line from what I can see is that you have a player who built a cleric badly and cannot do anything to disrupt the game, so game on.

[Warlawk]

It's just lovely when players forget they're in ravenloft and try things like that. Every DM lives for those moments.

EDIT: Just wanted to state that I stand by my earlier statement regarding the Mithral. It is a material cost, not a crafting cost so having the craft skill doesn't reduce the cost because you still have to buy the materials.

Also, if he starts kind of stealing the spotlight in combat then throw some things that the other players are particularly well suited to. For instance you named both a bard and paladin in the group. Both of those are specialty classes with special abilities that will give them a chance to shine if you make a little effort on that front.

[aboyd]

It's just lovely when players forget they're in ravenloft and try things like that.
Huh? I wasn't responding to anything Ravenloft, so I don't get what you're hinting at?

[erikun]

The first paragraph of the first post mentioned that this game was happening in Ravenloft. Given that we are talking about the Cleric character in the game...

[Veyr]

For instance you named both a bard and paladin in the group. Both of those are specialty classes with special abilities that will give them a chance to shine if you make a little effort on that front.
They do? In Core? Which?

Smite Evil is awful, Divine Grace is nice but completely defensive and good saves are hardly a unique feature, Lay on Hands is almost-pointless, and Remove Disease is insulting it's so bad. The Mount's OK, but I don't think many people expect or want to play a Paladin as a monster-master class.

Meanwhile, the Bard has Fascinate, Suggestion, and Mass Suggestion, which are great but almost impossible to use in combat. Inspire Courage is really piddly in Core with no way of augmenting it and no Dragonfire Inspiration to turn the damage into something meaningful. Most of the rest of the songs are useless (Countersong), quickly obsolesced (Inspire Competence), or only really good for cheese (Inspire Greatness). The spells are nice-ish compared to, well, the Paladin, but they're certainly not that impressive, especially in Core. They do have a nice skill list and a good number of skills per day, I suppose.

But seriously, the Paladin has a ton of problems, and the Bard requires non-Core materials to really shine (it can, in fact, become overpowered if you overdo it). I'm having a very hard time imagining a combat situation they could handle that a Cleric could not.

Outside of combat, of course the Bard excels and there I agree with you. Making the Bard the party face is a natural move and a good idea, because they're good at it and he shouldn't have to be very concerned about the other characters stepping on his toes in that role. The Paladin is still SOL, though.

[aboyd]

The first paragraph of the first post mentioned that this game was happening in Ravenloft. Given that we are talking about the Cleric character in the game...
I understand that, but the comment I responded to was asking the generic question, "are clerics really tier 1?" So I made some comments about clerics being tier 1. Thus I'm confused. When posters refute my post, I don't know if they're suggesting that clerics are not tier 1?

[Warlawk]

But seriously, the Paladin has a ton of problems, and the Bard requires non-Core materials to really shine (it can, in fact, become overpowered if you overdo it). I'm having a very hard time imagining a combat situation they could handle that a Cleric could not.

Outside of combat, of course the Bard excels and there I agree with you. Making the Bard the party face is a natural move and a good idea, because they're good at it and he shouldn't have to be very concerned about the other characters stepping on his toes in that role. The Paladin is still SOL, though.

You're right about the paladin, it's been a while since I've looked over that class and had forgotten how badly it was set up. But yeah, I was mostly referring to non-combat situations. See, that's the kicker... the ravenloft setting is designed to be a horror setting where the horror aspects and RP tend to take a front seat over combat beatsticking. So the bard should get some nice play there, heck... the way ravenloft is written (I haven't touched a ravenloft book since 2e, so this could be outdated) the paladins immunity to fear might actually be a very nice tool for him. Though... he's still going to end up being a paladin stuck in ravenloft, which is rarely a good situation.

EDIT:

I was just pointing out that in regards to the game in question those particular suggestions are going to backfire, and backfire hard. Since this thread is about a specific game and the relationship between said cleric and the other characters within said game, I was commenting on your post in this light.

[Tvtyrant]

You can make a competent Bard in Core; just not a great one. Whip+Improved Disarm and used two handed can disarm almost anyone, and you can use the whip to trip physically weak casters. Focus on control and you can do well in melee and use your songs as a static modifier. Cast spells to taste.

[aboyd]

I was just pointing out that in regards to the game in question those particular suggestions are going to backfire, and backfire hard. Since this thread is about a specific game and the relationship between said cleric and the other characters within said game, I was commenting on your post in this light.
Got it. I hadn't expected my post to be interpreted that way, so I think I'll remove it. If the OP wants to get into why clerics are tier 1, I guess he can start a new topic and I'll post there. Thanks! :)

[Sengachi]

Here is how I would handle the whole mithril thing. First, I would explain to him the problems with crafting time. Then I would tell him that if he wants to, he can have it. If he says no, no problem. If he says yes, well... all those treasure-greedy monsters? Mithril is shiny. Who would you go for first and try to carry off: the guys in iron? or the guy in mithral? Hee hee hee.

[Leon]

Though... he's still going to end up being a paladin stuck in ravenloft, which is rarely a good situation.


As a friend of mine like to talk about pallies in ravenloft - "your lighthouse of good in a sea of evil"

Oh and in regard to the OPs worries - have his god refuse him spells for silly weapon choice. Kord uses reliable Greatswords after all, not silly lengths of chain.

If he knows how to play a Cleric well then the whole party will be strong, if not then he's just trying to be a boring solo paragon in a team game

[aboyd]

I would tell him that if he wants to, he can have it. If he says no, no problem. If he says yes, well... all those treasure-greedy monsters? Mithril is shiny. Who would you go for first and try to carry off: the guys in iron? or the guy in mithral?
So, say yes, but then ruin it for him? That kinda sucks. :(

I had a DM once who didn't like the Leadership feat. If he had told me no, I would have happily picked another feat. Instead, he let me have the feat, and then ruined it by dragging out the process of recruiting followers over the course of years of real-world time, and gimped the cohort terribly. In the end I found myself looking longingly at other feats that he allowed into the game without heavy suckage, and felt completely ripped off.

The DM could have said no, and found something that made both of us happy. Instead, he went down a path that led to unhappy players. I'm not a fan. I'd really want to encourage the OP to handle issues in a more up-front fashion.

[ffone]

Also, the usual favorite options with a spiked chain - Improved Disarm and/or Trip, and Combat Reflexes, make this character very MAD (good Dex for the Combat Reflexes, Int 13 for the other two).

Melee Cleric doesn't sound like a very good spiked chain candidate for this reason (Wis, Str, Con, and Cha if taking a divine feat matter more). Very MAD.

And cleric / barb is not a great combo for the reasons others have given - heavy armor vs fast movement, and no casting in range. Maybe if he subs fast movement for Pounce (which everyone and their brother does anyway- when's the last time you saw an optimized melee char without pouncebarian?) and subs out rage, or just uses it as a 'flaw sink' to take two rage-nerfing flaws.

Then it becomes "Is Pounce worth a lost cleric level?" Which it might be, but Travel Devotion is a far more popular alternative.

[Pigkappa]

I was actually more worried that he's gonna outshine in melee some characters who can only be useful in melee.



It's just lovely when players forget they're in ravenloft and try things like that. Every DM lives for those moments.


Can you please make some examples? I've read the 3.5 Expedition to castle Ravenloft but any other input would be nice.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Can you please make some examples? I've read the 3.5 Expedition to castle Ravenloft but any other input would be nice.

ohh a dm new to the joys of ravenloft.

ravenloft a thing of beauty crafted in the days of ad&d. it is a world created by a force that seems to enjoy watching evil and stealing it from its home world.


the world itself seems to thrive in evil things of evil and chaos tend to have fun habits of maybe working too good, like a barbarian able tog et bonus vs fear and horror checks but in rage cannot stop on his own, clerics having the ability to rebuke undead when turning fails but risk corrupting into a force of evil over time

plus spells may not alway s work as expected

it is arguably the best world made and in the top 4 between darksun fr and birthright.

edit:http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=701&it=1&filters=0_0_0_31812 buy it. yes its whitewolf made yes it wotc licensed yet it s a legit pdf/ but It was worth it at $35 11 is a friggin bargain

[big teej]

Smite Evil is awful, Divine Grace is nice but completely defensive and good saves are hardly a unique feature, Lay on Hands is almost-pointless, .

at the risk of starting an argument and being shown numerous examples to the contrary,

I'd like to dispute this.

we have a paladin in our group and "smite evil" constistently helps put down big evil beasties that are pummeling the party (like that bugbear who killed two party members)

also
Lay on hands is an excellent "omigosh I'm about to die save me" option.

our paladin has saved numerous PC lives by rushing in and pumping htem full of lay on hands healing.

[Veyr]

we have a paladin in our group and "smite evil" constistently helps put down big evil beasties that are pummeling the party (like that bugbear who killed two party members)
How? He gets to use Smite Evil on one to five attacks per day. There is absolutely no level in the entire game where +Level damage to a single attack is at all impressive.


Lay on hands is an excellent "omigosh I'm about to die save me" option.

our paladin has saved numerous PC lives by rushing in and pumping htem full of lay on hands healing.
That situation is very rare, and the amount of healing is very low. I did say "almost" useless - yes, if it comes up, it's nice-ish to have. But as you get to higher levels, the odds of being left with so few HP without being killed outright dwindles quickly, and the amount of healing the Paladin can provide is never that good.

Healing is a poor use of actions for the Cleric, which makes Lay on Hands very close to a complete waste of time.

[VirOath]

at the risk of starting an argument and being shown numerous examples to the contrary,

I'd like to dispute this.

we have a paladin in our group and "smite evil" constistently helps put down big evil beasties that are pummeling the party (like that bugbear who killed two party members)

also
Lay on hands is an excellent "omigosh I'm about to die save me" option.

our paladin has saved numerous PC lives by rushing in and pumping htem full of lay on hands healing.

It's not to say that the results will never be good from those class features, but rather:

Smite Evil is akin to Power Attack with a little buff, yet limited to uses per day. A two handed fighter with this feat alone can match and beat the bonus Smite Evil gives. Mind you, a paladin can take it as well, but generally having a key class feature weaker than an entry level feat is bad. Making Smite Evil measured by Times/Encounter rather than Times/Day takes a huge step to making it somewhat worthwhile. Having it not expended when it doesn't fire off is another step.

And Lay On Hands falls back to the problem of damage vs healing. In most situations, it is more tactically sound to stop the source of damage rather than undo the damage itself due to how the two scale. But if Healing was a better option than Damage, then combat would be dragged out and played defensive, so it's a system choice.

Any further talk on this subject should be in another thread.

[JaronK]

Personally, I don't see the issue with someone actually using the craft skill. Yes, it makes mundane gear cheaper. So what?

JaronK

[Jack Zander]

Here's my idea. Let him play the minimally optimized spike chain build. Open up your other player's minds to the possibilities of DnD. Without tons of feats, he's just a fast moving cleric with shiny armor and a reach weapon. Even new players can pick up a druid and outshine this guy without even trying.

[Endarire]

As a DM of many first-time players, I advise you work with your players and build characters with them. Then, you can determine what each character is most meant to do and help them attain this! I advise you offer your group a rebuild so they can get what they want out of the game instead of being stuck in core. Which isn't balanced.

I advise Crusader for the Paladin, Swordsage for the Rogue, and Factotum for the Bard. They're fairly optimized as-is. Perhaps have the Bard go Bard4/Crusader2 instead for Charisma synergy and maneuvers. Then they'll be useful.

This Cleric/Barbarian isn't broken. Far from it. He's dealing with level-appropriate rockets. It's the others who need lots of help. Crafting nonmagical things for cheap is the point of the Craft skill on PCs. Otherwise, it's a waste of space!

[Pigkappa]

I advise Crusader for the Paladin, Swordsage for the Rogue, and Factotum for the Bard. They're fairly optimized as-is. Perhaps have the Bard go Bard4/Crusader2 instead for Charisma synergy and maneuvers. Then they'll be useful.

3 of them own no book at all (not even the PHB), and they don't want to spend their time reading rules (also, they are bad at English and I don't think I can find a Tome of Battle in Italian, and I'm definitely not going to translate it for them while we should be playing).

It would be much easier for the experienced players to make bad characters on purpose and then try to do their best with their abilities.

[faceroll]

I don't think it will be that powerful. If you are worried it's to strong, stress test it. But he doesn't look like he has any means of perma-buffing or fast-buffing, so in order to get all those cleric buffs up, he will have to spend time in combat putting them up. This will dramatically drop his damage output.

If he pumps is strength, he simply won't have that many spells. And encourage him to use buffs like bless and prayer. Those are very party friendly. Other useful spells can be things like remove curse, restoration, or shape stone, or water breathing. These are helpful to the whole party, as they let them overcome obstacles. If you are a very, and I mean very, unimaginative DM, they can become major bummers. But I don't think you'll have this problem.

A more experience player with a caster is helpful, because they will have an idea of useful spells and situations (like having freedom of movement, endure elements or protection from evil prepared).


Yeah, that level of Barbarian is confusing me as well. Fast movement seems to be one purpose for it, but then he goes and takes levels of Cleric that give him access to heavy armor (which would kill fast movement).

Probably why he's using mithral armor.



Maybe I didn't emphasize enough the rest of the party's experience. Some of them have literally never played before.

Sometime's it's helpful to have a capable player in the party to save 'em from dyin'.


The spiked chain combined with Power Attack. At very low optimization, just using a 2 handed weapon with Power Attack is a solid choice in my opinion. I'm afraid that using a 2 handed weapon with Power Attack with reach and the ability to make a lot of attack of opportunities (that is, 1/round considering he threatens a big area) makes this character stronger than the paladin or the rogue. I don't know how much this easy-AOO-mechanic can influence the game.

I still think I'm going to let him use this character and hope this doesn't turn out to be too bad. I need him on my side to solve the other party's problem (a stupid player who made an evil Rogue-to-be-Assassin when I asked them to be Good, and he's having several problems with the Paladin).

Yeah... you're at level 5 or 6. Power attack, with cleric BAB, isn't going to be an issue until level 10 or so. Furthermore, just how easily do you want to kill your players? Do you plan on throwing boring CR3 monsters, one at a time, for them to kill?


I... disagree. If the other players can't keep up with that (I mean, this is the most basic of optimization here), I feel like you ought to be helping them out rather than looking to nerf him. Just my opinion.

Yup.


Core means high tiers are firmly stuck in high tiers, and low tiers are firmly stuck in low tiers. So yes, core only Clerics will wreck things. In fact they will wreck things more than if you allow absolutely everything, because bringing in everything brings in more Cleric counters, and caster counters than things that help them.

If he's beatsticking instead, he's holding back considerably.

You should be more specific about what sort of thing a cleric can wreck, and under what conditions. A core cleric can be a combat monster IF HE HAS ADEQUATE TIME TO BUFF. All those buff spells will last 1 to 2 combats. A cleric goes through spells a lot faster than other optimized casters, thanks to stuff like divine power only lasting 1rnd/lvl.

What T1 is really great at is wrecking the plot. Once he gets stuff like Commune, Gate, Miracle, Plane Shift, Wind Walk, or Planar Ally, he does whatever he wants with the campaign, unless you implement some DM fiat (and that's fine).

Ehh, looks like a core-only divine gish. It's better than fighter or monk.



Then it becomes "Is Pounce worth a lost cleric level?" Which it might be, but Travel Devotion is a far more popular alternative.

Pounce barbarian is not core.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Sometime's it's helpful to have a capable player in the party to save 'em from dyin'.


it's ravenloft dyin' is half the fun

[ooknabah]

I agree with most of what has been posted here: Your player isn't really doing anything game breaking and the important thing for you to focus on is making the new players understand how to play the game better. We've all had first characters and sometimes watching what other, better characters can do is inspiration to understand the system better.

Were I you, I'd let the new players know that if they regret character choices, you'll be helpful in helping them improve as is appropriate. Maybe even work in a re-specing adventure so that they can do some changes up in the context of the game.

Anyway, it's pretty silly to me that you're worried about what has essentially broken down to a sub-par fighter build. As the characters go up in level and if you, as DM, put them up against level appropriate encounters, they will have to be able to play effectively or else they'll be cut down quickly. That's a learning experience too.

[Pigkappa]

I'll just let him use the character. Ravenloft is tough and they are currently really, really bad; they aren't just extremely unoptimized, but there are also in-game conflicts (a character seems to be there just to make money and spends half of his in-combat actions looting corpses, and another one is a psycopath who doesn't even try to save his companions' lives).


Pounce is the most stupidly broken class feature I've ever seen and I would never allow it. You usually have to be a little smart to find a broken strategy (e.g. use Gate to call in a creature who can cast Wish; use Iron Wall and sell the iron; and so on); Pounce is just a x2 (or x3 or more) to your melee damage.

[Veyr]

Pounce is the most stupidly broken class feature I've ever seen and I would never allow it. You usually have to be a little smart to find a broken strategy (e.g. use Gate to call in a creature who can cast Wish; use Iron Wall and sell the iron; and so on); Pounce is just a x2 (or x3 or more) to your melee damage.
See, to me... Pounce is the most stupidly necessary class feature that should have been the default, and utterly shafting melee by requiring them to be unable to move without utterly devastating their damage potential is incredibly poor design that should be changed post-haste.

[Warlawk]

Pounce is the most stupidly broken class feature I've ever seen and I would never allow it. You usually have to be a little smart to find a broken strategy (e.g. use Gate to call in a creature who can cast Wish; use Iron Wall and sell the iron; and so on); Pounce is just a x2 (or x3 or more) to your melee damage.

Of course, by the time the melee character has the iteratives to take advantage of pounce the wizard will be throwing around chained (easy metamagic), empowered (easy metamagic) arcane thesis Ray of Enfeeblement as a second level spell. At level 6 that can pretty well neuter an encounter by shaving 1d6+4X1.5 strength off of 8 targets. Note that ray of enfeeblement doesn't do damage (it applies a str penalty) and has no save so you really have no downside for using chain on it. It just gets uglier as you level up and start doing that with things like Enervation and the incantrix capstone ability. Even without using the game breaking stuff, a good T1 caster will effectively end an encounter far far faster than any pouncing character that doesn't have a way to shatter action economy.

Pounce seems very powerful in a low op game with new players, but in the bigger picture it's really not. Just a badly needed crutch for melee. Our current game has just been treating full attack as a standard action and it has worked out just fine.

[faceroll]

Of course, by the time the melee character has the iteratives to take advantage of pounce....

Unless you've got natural attacks, TWF, flurry of blows, whirling frenzy rage variant, or any of a myriad other ways to get extra attacks at levels 1 to 2.

[Warlawk]

Unless you've got natural attacks, TWF, flurry of blows, whirling frenzy rage variant, or any of a myriad other ways to get extra attacks at levels 1 to 2.

At which point arcane caster control spells are still more powerful than a small handful of low damage melee attacks. My point was, it's pretty hard for melee to get to the point where they outclass a high end caster who is using CC/Debuff instead of blasting.

[Pigkappa]

This is not the intended power level for characters of that level. If everyone optimizes that way, a random CR N encounter is extremely easy for a level N party.

Pounce is an alternate class feature and one of the other totem alternate class features gives you +4 to Spot and Listen IIRC (and the other ones are definitely worse than Pounce too). This means that who wrote the book has clearly made a mistake and the GM should take care of it.

The same is true for Arcane Thesis of course...

[Malevolence]

Pounce is the most stupidly broken class feature I've ever seen and I would never allow it. You usually have to be a little smart to find a broken strategy (e.g. use Gate to call in a creature who can cast Wish; use Iron Wall and sell the iron; and so on); Pounce is just a x2 (or x3 or more) to your melee damage.

You must really hate beatsticks.

[Warlawk]

This is not the intended power level for characters of that level. If everyone optimizes that way, a random CR N encounter is extremely easy for a level N party.

Pounce is an alternate class feature and one of the other totem alternate class features gives you +4 to Spot and Listen IIRC (and the other ones are definitely worse than Pounce too). This means that who wrote the book has clearly made a mistake and the GM should take care of it.

The same is true for Arcane Thesis of course...

That's why I had posted this as well.



Pounce seems very powerful in a low op game with new players, but in the bigger picture it's really not. Just a badly needed crutch for melee. Our current game has just been treating full attack as a standard action and it has worked out just fine.

In a group with several completely new players and people who can barely be troubled to read the books, yeah pounce is a bit powerful at first glance. I think the key part is to specify that pounce is overpowered specifically within that play environment. Once you start having players who understand the game and are playing T1/2 classes, pounce just becomes a tool that keeps melee characters from losing more ground than they already have in regards to effectiveness.

[Veyr]

From my perspective, the inability for melee characters to both move and attack effectively is inherently terrible design.

Pounce is bad solely because Pounce should not have been necessary in the first place. But in the absence of other efficient options for moving while attacking, Pounce becomes a necessity, and basically every Core-melee (defined as a character who uses no subsystems, only the Core attack action mechanics) build ever basically needs at least one level of Barbarian in order to get it. This is terrible design, but it's better than having characters who are stuck in place, unable to move without all-but-wasting their turn.

[VirOath]

From my perspective, the inability for melee characters to both move and attack effectively is inherently terrible design.

Pounce is bad solely because Pounce should not have been necessary in the first place. But in the absence of other efficient options for moving while attacking, Pounce becomes a necessity, and basically every Core-melee (defined as a character who uses no subsystems, only the Core attack action mechanics) build ever basically needs at least one level of Barbarian in order to get it. This is terrible design, but it's better than having characters who are stuck in place, unable to move without all-but-wasting their turn.

Now, that isn't exactly true. Every melee build needs some form of free movement, but pounce isn't the end all, be all of the lot. There are a myriad of ways to get it, Person_Man put up a list.

[Veyr]

Most of the rest are quite sub-par, though. The only really good one I know off the top of my head is a Cleric dip for Travel Devotion. Which is more flexible, but limited in times per day.

[VirOath]

Not really, a meager investment for one Nightstick plus the basic number of turn uses should be more than enough to power it for every combat. It lasts for a whole minute, 10 combat rounds, so there is little risk of it running out during combat as well.

The methods aren't always sub-par, just very restricted in getting them.

[Veyr]

When I said "sub-par", I meant either not terribly effective, or far too difficult to get.

And whoa, you're right about Travel Devotion. I'd misread it! Wooow, that's so much better than I thought.

[Veyr]

When I said "sub-par", I meant either not terribly effective, or far too difficult to get.

And whoa, you're right about Travel Devotion. I'd misread it! Wooow, that's so much better than I thought.