PvP in 4th E

[NotScaryBats]

Namely, is it possible and / or balanced? Does anyone have any experience with it? Are there specific roles which are better or weaker?

The situation: a party member will be replaced by a changeling during the course of a campaign, which the player will then play without the others' knowledge of the switch. Eventually, the PCs will either find the original character or will foil the changeling's disguise, which very well might lead to a confrontation. Depending on how the player wants to do it, a battle between the changeling (controlled by PC) with minions / monster help vs the other PCs could ensue. We aren't there yet in the story, but I would like any input from ya'all.

[Sipex]

Strict PvP doesn't work very well, PC characters aren't balanced in a way where they can fight each other very well.

Now, if you're going to have the character in question just play a changeling statted monster once they confront (with other monster support) that could totally work as long as they can A) Keep a secret B) Actually play monsters and C) Not metagame to make their monster lose in favour of the party.

[Erom]

PvP works fantastically in 4e, IMO. Just be aware that it's a mite quicker and bloodier than you might expect from 4e PvE - a striker who leads with a daily then an action point has a pretty decent chance of dropping another character.

Unfortunately, this means that with 1 on Many like in your situation, the changeling if built with PC rules will go down HARD. It MIGHT get to take someone to 0hp with it, but that guy will get back up because he has a leader with him. Better in your situation to build the changeling as a monster, I think.

[evirus]

I think the question you are asking is: can a PC with monster help work well vs a PC party.

I don't see why not since the "evil" PC will have support. As a GM however this to me looks like a perfect place to replace the changeling with monster stats and make it a returning solo villan.

[Cealocanth]

The story you describe seems easily done with a monster. It would be easier, and more balanced if the player you selected played from a custom monster statboard instead of a changeling character sheet. This could be done for some time, just make sure the equipment list is well filled out as well as the feats and the like are well integrated into the powers.

Now, on to the question at hand. Yes, it is possible. It's been done before, but the game is not inherently designed to handle it. PCs are more or less Elites in monster stats. They can even stretch beyond Elite with their optimization and Paragon Paths. To equal a PC in strength to a monster, you would need an Elite two or three levels above them, of a similar class.

What you're doing is different, however. You wish to pit a PC against a PC. This means that the difference in balance would fall on the classes and levels. PCs are meant to fight in a 4 or 5 man group. Without a group to back them up, a single PC would be no match against a well balanced group, no matter the class or level they have. I assume you're going to make this hypothetical Changeling a rouge of some kind. If you plan for him/her to fight against the whole group, s/he will need to be at least 2 levels above the party, and have some good fighter multiclass thrown in there. Even then, s/he probably won't last long when the crap hits the fan.

So, yes, pitting a PC against several PCs is possible, but if you were to pit the PCs against a Solo monster a few levels higher than them, it would be more balanced and less difficult.

Also, get this Changeling a Cloak of Escape. PCs hate teleporting enemies that can turn invisible, and it would snag you a re-occurring villain.

[Hzurr]

The problem with PvP in 4E has to do with classes. For example, if you go Striker vs. Defender, the striker is going to win every time. A defender is built around the idea that you keep monsters from attacking your allies, but in this case there's no one but you, and your high defenses won't be enough to stop the ridiculous amount of damage that is going to be dealt to you that you won't be able to match.

Depending on how they're built, controllers can either be very good at PvP or very bad. Controllers who focus on large area attacks will get slaughtered in PvP, whereas those who focus on locking down targets with daze & stun like powers will be frighteningly effective.

Leaders vs. Strikers would be a toss up, in my opinion, just because a leader can heal himself to mitigate some of the striker damage. However, leader vs defender will go to the leader every time, because the damage output will be about the same, but the leader can go for much longer, because he can keep healing himself in ways the defender can't.

So...yeah, just some thoughts. You can do PvP, but it really isn't balanced. Someone who is the most effective during a group fight will get destroyed in PvP, and if you're a defender you're almost guaranteed to lose (except against some controllers)

[Katana_Geldar]

No, no, a thousand times no. :smalleek:

I've done PvP several times in 4E, at the rest of my players and against my better judgement. Now I don't allow it as the system simply is not designed for it. One of the basic principles of 4E is cooperative play, this is what the party is designed around, people having specialised roles working together.

There's also the simple thing that monsters and players are designed differently, as it suits their purposes. Monsters have heaps more hitpoints than heroes, as they are meant to be pounded quite a bit, they also have fewer options for attack. The reverse happens with players, they have fewer hitpoints but have more options.

I explain this to my players quite often, though I don't outlaw PvP altogether. We just do it in another system that's better designed for it, like Star wars Saga, 3.5 (which we are about to get into) or to really get the PvP fix, Paranoia.

[Surrealistik]

Totally unbalanced; Strikers, and high initiative (save ends) abusing Controllers will rape all.

[Kurald Galain]

Namely, is it possible and / or balanced?
Yes, it's possible, and no, it's not balanced at all.

Basically, it's a contest of whoever wins initiative. That player will drop two dailies with an action point, and win the combat. Aside from that, strikers rule big time, since they can generally do enough damage to bloody (or even drop) another PC in a single attack. Leaders and defenders have nobody to lead or defend in PVP, respectively.

That said, what you're asking really isn't PVP. What you're asking is, can a "doppelganger" kind of monster with a bunch of minions be a reasonable challenge to a group of PCs, and of course the answer is yes. Just use monster stats for the doppel when it fights in this way.

[Katana_Geldar]

I'd like to see a monster vs monster fight, though. Would be interesting...

[Kurald Galain]

I'd like to see a monster vs monster fight, though. Would be interesting...

Really? Wouldn't that take forever given that monsters do less damage, and have way more hit points, than PCs?

[Katana_Geldar]

Hey, never said it was going to be a serious contest. It would be like watching a gladiatiorial match. You could even place bets.

[Surrealistik]

I don't think it comes down purely to initiative: most Defender and Leader builds aren't going to be able to shut down/win in just a single turn; the same is not true of Strikers/Controllers. In a contest between the latter roles though, yes, it _is_ all about initiative.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think it comes down purely to initiative: lots of Defender and Leader builds aren't going to be able to shut down/win in just a single turn; the same is not true of most Strikers/Controllers.
Correct, but if two strikers face off, then initiative wins the match; and if a striker faces anything else, then my money is on the striker.

[Surrealistik]

Yep, as stated in the above post.

That said though, if a Striker faces an Unconscious/Domination/Stun-lock Controller that goes first, that is one dead Striker. If the Striker is melee constrained, the Controller has even more win button shut down options. Controllers are just as deadly in PvP, even if they ultimately take longer to kill someone.

[Gralamin]

There are some ways to make PvP work, but mano on mano, Leaders and Defenders will always be left out. Having a teams of 2 to 3 can lead to better results, in that it makes it possible for all classes to contribute to varying degrees.

The trick though, is you have to change how certain abilities work. The three big ones are: Damage on a critical hit, normal damage, and Conditions. Damage on a critical hit makes things far too swingy. Normal damage is too high. Conditions are too debilitating.

[CakeTown]

I don't think PVP works well in 4e. We had one instance of it in our campaign, and it was Avenger vs Ranger. Both strikers, but the Ranger was far more optimized, and won initiative. The Ranger swept the floor with the Avenger in two rounds.

As other people said, it usually comes down to whoever wins initiative.

[Crow]

There are some ways to make PvP work, but mano on mano...

Hand on hand?

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

Hand on hand?

I think he means mano a mano. Or man-on-man. Either would work here, actually.

Anyway, I'll echo what others have said and cast my ballot for statting the changeling as a monster.

[mobdrazhar]

expanding on making the changling a monster you can give it class as per DMG

[Meta]

I have a Paladin that'll laugh at controllers in a pvp setting with a little tweaking. And he's certainly tough enough to last against a highly optimized striker for long enough (or just use a 'come back from the dead' item or power to nullify the nova.) to let Discipline the Unruly wreck it. Initiative is just as high as any other character too, if that's really a selling point for you.

I admit strikers have a bit of an advantage when it comes to low to mid levels of optimization but at high levels specific build matters more than role

Edit for grammar phail

[Surrealistik]

I have a Paladin that'll laugh at controllers in a pvp setting with a little tweaking. And he's certainly tough enough to last against a highly optimized striker for long enough (or just use a 'come back from the dead' item or power to nullify the nova.) to let Discipline the Unruly wreck it. Initiative is just as high as any other character too, if that's really a selling point for you.

I admit strikers have a bit of an advantage when it comes to low to mid levels of optimization but at high levels specific build matters more than role

Edit for grammar phail

Obviously if you built your character with PvP sensibilities in mind, he'll tend to be better at it than a character who is not. That said, a controller or striker tweaked for PvP is almost certainly going to be superior at it as compared to a paladin or other defender tweaked for PvP.

[Meta]

Obviously if you built your character with PvP sensibilities in mind, he'll tend to be better at it than a character who is not. That said, a controller or striker tweaked for PvP is almost certainly going to be superior at it as compared to a paladin or other defender tweaked for PvP.

Not tweaked for pvp. A resilient defender is equally resilient against PCs and Monsters regardless of purpose it was built for. Superior Will and Dispater's Iron Discipline counters stun lock whether it come from DM or player.

[Surrealistik]

Not tweaked for pvp. A resilient defender is equally resilient against PCs and Monsters regardless of purpose it was built for. Superior Will and Dispater's Iron Discipline counters stun lock whether it come from DM or player.

Yeah, that'll definitely defeat daze/stun, and will prevent (save ends) dominate from locking you, but between each (save ends) and until end of next turn dominate (Royal Command of Asmodeus and Steal Time spam for example), Immobilization and Unconsciousness (Sleep), and non-condition stuff like Visions of Ruin, a Controller can still easily shut down that build. You're denying most but not all of the key avenues of Controller PvP win, and the player doesn't even need to really go out of his way to counter.

Same deal with Strikers: they can accurately and reliably do hundreds upon hundreds of damage during their nova by epic; more than enough to take down any PC.

By the way, is it just me, or do Tieflings have the best racial feats ever? I mean seriously, they're balls to the wall awesome.

[Fox Box Socks]

1v1 doesn't work too well, as strikers tend to win initiative and blow their action points on dailies.

3v3 works significantly better, as teamwork is the entire point of 4e and loading up on strikers isn't necessarily the best option, since going all-out early tends to leave you exposed.

[Meta]

Yeah, that'll definitely defeat daze/stun, and will prevent (save ends) dominate from locking you, but between each (save ends) and until end of next turn dominate (Royal Command of Asmodeus and Steal Time spam for example), Immobilization and Unconsciousness (Sleep), and non-condition stuff like Visions of Ruin, a Controller can still easily shut down that build. You're denying most but not all of the key avenues of Controller PvP win, and the player doesn't even need to really go out of his way to counter.

Same deal with Strikers; they can accurately and reliably do hundreds upon hundreds of damage during their nova by epic; more than enough to take down any PC.

By the way, is it just me, or do Tieflings have the best racials ever? I mean seriously, they're balls to the wall awesome.

Well technically it won't matter if it's save ends or not for daze and stun. Superior Will grants a safe either way. And if it's epic tier Saint will wreck domination. An immobilization focused build would be rather annoying but if I'm using the example of a tiefling paladin, secrets of belial + ethereal sidestep and a few paragon tier items will counter any of those powers. Gets around difficult terrain and shenanigans like that too.

Also, PC defenses are easier to stack than to-hits. You throw out mostly wizard stuff, and a wizard would have to be rather lucky to beat this same character on initiative. If you counter his status effects, even for a little bit, you're going to wreck him. True Nemesis and Discipline the Unruly jump to mind.

Epic tier striking is honestly not that un-counterable by similar level PCs. Any sort of cute escape power (probably a utility, like maybe Wizard's Escape since you seem to like that class) and you ruined their nova setup. Going Nova is really not that helpful against PCs as they have many more evasions or ways of recovering/negating (ESPECIALLY at epic tier) than monsters do.

I'm not saying something like "GG, paladin > all" or anything similar, but I think it's folly to put much stock in a fast glass cannon build. There are simply too many options at high levels.

EDIT: for above post: that would give dedicated leaders something to do, and be slightly more fair, which would be nice because it's their role that usually gets most maligned in a 1v1 situation

[Surrealistik]

Well technically it won't matter if it's save ends or not for daze and stun. Superior Will grants a safe either way. And if it's epic tier Saint will wreck domination. An immobilization focused build would be rather annoying but if I'm using the example of a tiefling paladin, secrets of belial + ethereal sidestep and a few paragon tier items will counter any of those powers. Gets around difficult terrain and shenanigans like that too.

That's why I said it outright defeats daze/stun.

Yes, Saint specifically will beat Domination; starting to get into PvP specific counterbuild territory, but I'll admit the Saint is a good choice anyways. You still have Unconsciousness/Immobilizing powers to deal with however. The latter rarely needs to be a 'focus' of a Controller, as they are exceedingly common for the role. Further, many immobilizing powers impose the condition specific to your character, precluding teleportation (save teleportation that moves you within striking distance anyways) as a counter. Non-condition disabling powers to which there are few if any responses (again like Visions of Ruin) are also fairly common.


Also, PC defenses are easier to stack than to-hits. You throw out mostly wizard stuff, and a wizard would have to be rather lucky to beat this same character on initiative. If you counter his status effects, even for a little bit, you're going to wreck him. True Nemesis and Discipline the Unruly jump to mind.

Not with Strategist's Epiphany as an example, which is definitely a go-to power in the higher levels. Further, the Wizard, and other controllers usually have several escape powers to negate one or two rounds of attacks as an insurance policy if you somehow stop being controlled, as you've mentioned below. Controllers also tend to be amongst the most accurate characters in the game.


Epic tier striking is honestly not that un-counterable by similar level PCs. Any sort of cute escape power (probably a utility, like maybe Wizard's Escape since you seem to like that class) and you ruined their nova setup. Going Nova is really not that helpful against PCs as they have many more evasions or ways of recovering/negating (ESPECIALLY at epic tier) than monsters do.

Sure, you can escape an attack or two; that doesn't matter if they can kite/stealth/escape your own nova and win a damage race with ease because they reliably do 100+ DPR even outside of Dailies (you might be able to 'escape' all of these) and Encounters (you will not be able to escape all of these). Keep in mind also that Strikers aren't necessarily glass cannons, and can certainly weather a defense/anti-condition specced Defender (unless they're something terrible like the Assassin, lul).

[Meta]

Strategist's Epiphany Is good but something platinum scales (another great high level power) will make it look silly. Defenses are simply easier to buff than attack rolls by a bit and DPR an status effects are at least partially dependent on hitting. That's why something like discipline the unruly is going to be stronger than visions.

I don't think this is the thread for such number crunching but a wizard cannot kill an epic tier defender in the average turn or two he will have him/her locked down with this power. If you're not playing with errata this is a passable tactic but WotC has nerfed the best save reducers to one round. That's why discipline, for example, is a better power. It lasts all battle and is going to inflict that blind condition and damage a LOT. Things like unyielding avalanche or force the battle and even stinking cloud or humble flaming sphere (okay, maybe the last is an exaggeration :P) are actually going to be great in the drawn out fights the most high level of optimzation will lead to.

I can't see your post because I'm responding from my
phone, so I apologize as I surely missed things, but I can take a look tomorrow when it's not sleepy time.

Quick edits: controllers are not the most inherently accurate role in the game. And since you brought up tough strikers I could see my favorite class, the avenger, doing quite well as a successful blend of rough and tough. And a defender who has 1.5X a strikers hit points only has to match 66% of its damage output and the radiant keyword is very mean. A defense oriented paladin will have no trouble fitting in a holy avenger/radiant shard/IAoP and many other damage goodies, same way as a striker

[Surrealistik]

Strategist's Epiphany Is good but something platinum scales (another great high level power) will make it look silly. Defenses are simply easier to buff than attack rolls by a bit and DPR an status effects are at least partially dependent on hitting. That's why something like discipline the unruly is going to be stronger than visions.

As well it should being a level 22 utility (Platinum Scales), as opposed to a level 2 utility skill power (Strategist's Epiphany).

Yeah, Platinum Scales is all kinds of broke with a Strength specced build granted, but as a rule, it's not a win button that makes Defenders as a whole come out ahead in PvP. That said, there are a _lot_ of status effects controllers possess which don't require a hit.


I don't think this is the thread for such number crunching but a wizard cannot kill an epic tier defender in the average turn or two he will have him/her locked down with this power. If you're not playing with errata this is a passable tactic but WotC has nerfed the best save reducers to one round. That's why discipline, for example, is a better power. It lasts all battle and is going to inflict that blind condition and damage a LOT. Things like unyielding avalanche or force the battle and even stinking cloud or humble flaming sphere (okay, maybe the last is an exaggeration :P) are actually going to be great in the drawn out fights the most high level of optimzation will lead to.


Orb of Mental Dominion, Orb of Fickle Fate, Curse Eye Tattoo, Spider Familiar, Spell Focus, Fatespurned Foe (Swordmage Multiclass/Secrets of Belial), Entrancing Mystic, Phiarlan Phantasmist, all feature powerful recurring save penalizers that currently work. There are probably more, but those are the ones I've come up with off the top of my head.

Discipline the Unruly only works if allies (not you) are hit.


Quick edits: controllers are not the most inherently accurate role in the game. And since you brought up tough strikers I could see my favorite class, the avenger, doing quite well as a successful blend of rough and tough. And a defender who has 1.5X a strikers hit points only has to match 66% of its damage output and the radiant keyword is very mean. A defense oriented paladin will have no trouble fitting in a holy avenger/radiant shard/IAoP and many other damage goodies, same way as a striker

No, perhaps not inherently but they tend to be amongst the most accurate between hitting NADs, superior implements, and the various methods they tend to have of boosting their attack rolls (Wizards in particular).

A defense-specced Defender's damage outputs such as the one you're describing will almost certainly not win the damage race against an optimized Striker, assuming that Defender can even survive the first two turns of Novaing to begin with. Really, optimized Strikers can dish out far too much damage, in far too short a time to be effectively outpaced as even an offense specced Defender, particularly multiattackers.

[Reluctance]

I'd take a pointer from video games. Let the player play the PC form of the changeling. Keep an eye on his favorite tactics, and keep in mind that you might have to monsterize him down the line.

Then, if the character gets found out and if things come to blows, swap out the PC form of the changeling for the monster form. You should be able to get a feel for when things are heating up and make an appropriately leveled monster around then. That allows the player to keep a proper PC (as well as avoid tipping off everybody else by playing a mechanical oddball), while allowing the monster battle to have an actual monster that's built and balanced as such.

[Leolo]

PVP does change the balancing. Multiattackers like the Ranger or the infinite damage builds get worse, because there are so many options to avoid being hit multiple times for player characters. Avoiding damage is the key to win the duel. Most classes can not counter things like invisibility, and staying out of reach.

Initiative is important, of course and also preparation.

[NotScaryBats]

Thanks for all the replies. It sounds like I should use monster stats for the changeling in order to make the encounter longer and better. Thanks for the input.

[Leolo]

You should also use the monster class templates if you want to make him more "player like"

It makes him an elite monster, but as far as i understood the changeling is a important foe anyway, so it does match.

[Kurald Galain]

a Controller can still easily shut down that build.
Looks like the two of you should hit the Ongoing Games forum and have a duel. That said, if you do so, please bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of games play at heroic tier, not epic tier; so a level 10 match would be much more representative of "PVP in 4E" than a level 30 match.


By the way, is it just me, or do Tieflings have the best racial feats ever?
Well, there's a lot of power creep in their PHB Races book, and then the rest of the PHB Races books got cancelled, so yeah...

[Surrealistik]

Looks like the two of you should hit the Ongoing Games forum and have a duel. That said, if you do so, please bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of games play at heroic tier, not epic tier; so a level 10 match would be much more representative of "PVP in 4E" than a level 30 match.


Well, there's a lot of power creep in their PHB Races book, and then the rest of the PHB Races books got cancelled, so yeah...

The argument isn't really about particular PvP orientated builds defeating each other so much as the general ability of one role to beat the other, without specific PvP tweaking. I mentioned that 'build' in particular more as a reference to a certain feat combo which you could definitely expect to find on any Int/Cha specced Tiefling Defender.

Anyways, at level 10, most non-ranged Defender builds would almost certainly outright lose to a good Controller (most of which can immobilize in perpetuity, or long enough to kill anyways), though the ability of the Controller to lock while completely denying actions is drastically diminished.

[Meta]

As well it should being a level 22 utility (Platinum Scales), as opposed to a level 2 utility skill power (Strategist's Epiphany).

Yeah, Platinum Scales is all kinds of broke with a Strength specced build granted, but as a rule, it's not a win button that makes Defenders as a whole come out ahead in PvP. That said, there are a _lot_ of status effects controllers possess which don't require a hit.



Orb of Mental Dominion, Orb of Fickle Fate, Curse Eye Tattoo, Spider Familiar, Spell Focus, Fatespurned Foe (Swordmage Multiclass/Secrets of Belial), Entrancing Mystic, Phiarlan Phantasmist, all feature powerful recurring save penalizers that currently work. There are probably more, but those are the ones I've come up with off the top of my head.

Discipline the Unruly only works if allies (not you) are hit.



No, perhaps not inherently but they tend to be amongst the most accurate between hitting NADs, superior implements, and the various methods they tend to have of boosting their attack rolls (Wizards in particular).

A defense-specced Defender's damage outputs such as the one you're describing will almost certainly not win the damage race against an optimized Striker, assuming that Defender can even survive the first two turns of Novaing to begin with. Really, optimized Strikers can dish out far too much damage, in far too short a time to be effectively outpaced as even an offense specced Defender, particularly multiattackers.

+8-10 to defenses isn't a win? I would definitely like to PvP you with a wizard that you've statted out that has a +43 to hit. Cuz that's what you'll need to hit more than a quarter of the time. And more feats sunk into that means less for everything else. Lots of opportunity cost to consider.

Cunning Weapon is a useful save imposer, but again that's a whole lot of effort to put into one avenue of victory. If you're opponent has Heart of the Titan, you'd be in serious trouble.

Mixed up Nemesis and Discipline. My bad.

Wizards are not that accurate compared to other classes. Vs Nad attacks is really helpful against the tarrasque (a bad monster) and awful against Vecna (a good monster.) Overall, it will sometimes provide a benefit, sometimes not, and even if it surpasses the proficiency bonus weapon classes get, lots of great weapon powers target a nad anyways. Honestly wizards aren't even top 5 when it comes to most accurate class so I don't know where you're getting that from.

You don't even have to survive the first nova round. Let him blow everything on a nova. If you still wanna talk epic tier: Cloak of the Phoenix to come back from the dead at full health in style (or heck something much easier like Bear's Endurance or Vengeful Revenant to name just a few.) Or, Gorget of Reciprocity/Chaos Echoes on his crit just for the lulz.

I'm not seeing how you think striker/controller is inherently better than defender. I think to split into such broad roles is kinda silly, as clearly this sort of thing comes down to a build versus build analysis

[Kurald Galain]

wizards aren't even top 5 when it comes to most accurate class so I don't know where you're getting that from.
Orb of Inescapable Consequence, presumably.

That said, I would be interested in seeing both of you make the build you're talking about, and doing a forum duel.

[tcrudisi]

Orb of Inescapable Consequence, presumably.

That said, I would be interested in seeing both of you make the build you're talking about, and doing a forum duel.

I second this notion.

I place 5gp on the Wizard.

[Meta]

Hit me up with level and restrictions and I'll throw something together.

[Surrealistik]

+8-10 to defenses isn't a win? I would definitely like to PvP you with a wizard that you've statted out that has a +43 to hit. Cuz that's what you'll need to hit more than a quarter of the time. And more feats sunk into that means less for everything else. Lots of opportunity cost to consider.

I don't think you're fully reading my posts; that single power is not tantamount as a 'win' for the _role_ Defenders _as a whole_. Individually yeah, it's an overwhelmingly powerful option, and I've flat out said that. Controllers on the otherhand have the Radiant One ED. +9 to all defenses, any non-melee attack has a 55+% chance of doing nothing.


Cunning Weapon is a useful save imposer, but again that's a whole lot of effort to put into one avenue of victory. If you're opponent has Heart of the Titan, you'd be in serious trouble.


It's pretty standard for Controllers to invest everything in (save ends) locks. I was also referring to recurring saving throw penalites, deliberately omitting one shot penalizers like Cunning Weapon (which are still very useful).


Mixed up Nemesis and Discipline. My bad.

What, True Nemesis? The power that does mediocre retaliatory damage one per round, attacks a Controller's typically strongest defense, and only has a range of 5? A Controller will typically be hitting you from a range of 10 if at all possible.


Wizards are not that accurate compared to other classes. Vs Nad attacks is really helpful against the tarrasque (a bad monster) and awful against Vecna (a good monster.) Overall, it will sometimes provide a benefit, sometimes not, and even if it surpasses the proficiency bonus weapon classes get, lots of great weapon powers target a nad anyways. Honestly wizards aren't even top 5 when it comes to most accurate class so I don't know where you're getting that from.

Overall, hitting NADs, especially certain NADs (Reflex and Will), is basically an indisputable _net_ positive. Weapon powers that target NADs also tend (but not always) to have less powerful damage/effects than those which do not for obvious reasons. Enchantusionists (probably the strongest Wizard build overall) with Staff of Charm and Sleep, and Paragon Paths like Phiarlan Phantasmist/Divine Oracle (almost all of their powers target Will)/Entrancing Mystic, and Epic Paths like Sage of Ages are definitely some of the most accurate builds in the game. If they're a Tiefling (which the best ones are) they also get painless access to Serpent's Cunning for even more accuracy.


You don't even have to survive the first nova round. Let him blow everything on a nova. If you still wanna talk epic tier: Cloak of the Phoenix to come back from the dead at full health in style (or heck something much easier like Bear's Endurance or Vengeful Revenant to name just a few.) Or, Gorget of Reciprocity/Chaos Echoes on his crit just for the lulz.

Sure, and he has access to the same tricks, and even if you somehow completely defeat his nova, he still has a daily left, and all of his encounters, and you cannot possibly negate all of them. The fact is he still outpaces your damage to the point where you simply can't keep up.


I'm not seeing how you think striker/controller is inherently better than defender. I think to split into such broad roles is kinda silly, as clearly this sort of thing comes down to a build versus build analysis

I didn't say they were 'inherently better', but as a rule and _on average_, they will wipe the floor with a same level defender in PvP.


Lastly, I am not interested in an arena fight; it's not entertaining and proves nothing given what this argument is actually concerned with.

[evirus]

Lastly, I am not interested in an arena fight; it's not entertaining and proves nothing given what this argument is actually concerned with.

I thought this argument was based on wheather or not a PC with monster support would be a viable combat vs a PC party.

The answer was yes, but to use monster stats for the changeling.

[Meta]

a +9 to defenses when the game is balanced on hitting 55% of the time to begin with is pretty wintastic.

I mixed up the targeting of Nemesis with Discipline, not what they do. Though auto damage is always good.

Stat out your wizard's attack. If I can't top it with 5 classes I'll concede the point.

"The fact is he still outpaces your damage to the point where you simply can't keep up."

Prove it.

"I didn't say they were 'inherently better', but as a rule and _on average_, they will wipe the floor with a same level defender in PvP."

Prove it.

"Lastly, I am not interested in an arena fight; it's not entertaining and proves nothing given what this argument is actually concerned with."

Dang. Pretty sure throwing out blanket statements like that and then not backing them up AND saying that it's not relevant is bad form.

[Surrealistik]

a +9 to defenses when the game is balanced on hitting 55% of the time to begin with is pretty wintastic.

I mixed up the targeting of Nemesis with Discipline, not what they do. Though auto damage is always good.

Stat out your wizard's attack. If I can't top it with 5 classes I'll concede the point.

"The fact is he still outpaces your damage to the point where you simply can't keep up."

Prove it.

"I didn't say they were 'inherently better', but as a rule and _on average_, they will wipe the floor with a same level defender in PvP."

Prove it.

"Lastly, I am not interested in an arena fight; it's not entertaining and proves nothing given what this argument is actually concerned with."

Dang. Pretty sure throwing out blanket statements like that and then not backing them up AND saying that it's not relevant is bad form.

Except that an arena fight actually backs nothing up (_especially_ not one where both builds are tweaked specifically for PvP). You do not seem to understand that there is a marked difference between an individual microcosmic fight, and a sweeping averaged trend.

As for 'proving it', just go to the WotC char op forums: compare the best defenders to the best strikers/controllers (obviously the ones that are not specifically PvP orientated), and put them in a PvP context; I think that's all that needs to be done really.

[Meta]

Except that an arena fight actually backs nothing up (_especially_ not one where both builds are tweaked specifically for PvP). You do not seem to understand that there is a marked difference between an individual microcosmic fight, and a sweeping averaged trend.

As for 'proving it', just go to the WotC char op forums: compare the best defenders to the best strikers/controllers, and put them in a PvP context; I think that's all that needs to be done really.

Any good defender invests in ways to overcome status effects, damage avoidance, and damage of his/her own. Proves helpful against monsters and proves helpful against PCs.

I've been on the WotC char op forums. Absorbed much of the information there. I've also learned a few tricks not present there. If you would like to copy paste a tiefling wizard (I'll build a non-tiefling defender for the sake of variety) from the Wizard Handbook, be my guest! :smallwink:

[Kurald Galain]

Hit me up with level and restrictions and I'll throw something together.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10657411

[Surrealistik]

Any good defender invests in ways to overcome status effects, damage avoidance, and damage of his/her own. Proves helpful against monsters and proves helpful against PCs.

And how many of them can on _average_, without specific PvP tweaking, beat standard PvM control lock builds, or withstand Striker novas/outpace Striker DPR?


I've been on the WotC char op forums. Absorbed much of the information there. I've also learned a few tricks not present there. If you would like to copy paste a tiefling wizard (I'll build a non-tiefling defender for the sake of variety) from the Wizard Handbook, be my guest! :smallwink:

So, you'll build your customized, PvP orientated build, and I'll post someone else's non-customized PvM orientated build? That doesn't sound at all like something that would in anyway resolve the argument. You'll need actual statistical data to do so meaningfully, and so would I.

That said though, and I admit this is purely anecdote, I have have _never_ seen a PvM orientated Defender in any of my games that would stand up to a same level, comparably optimized PvM orientated Striker/Controller.

[Meta]

And how many of them can on _average_, without specific PvP tweaking, beat standard PvM control lock builds, or withstand Striker novas/outpace Striker DPR?



So, you'll build your customized, PvP orientated build, and I'll post someone else's non-customized PvM orientated build? That doesn't sound at all like something that would in anyway resolve the argument. You'll need actual statistical data to do so meaningfully, and so would I.

That said though, and I admit this is purely anecdote, having have _never_ seen a PvM orientated Defender in any of my games that would stand up to a same level, comparably optimized PvM orientated Striker/Controller.

I gave you the option of using a build from the site as it was you who suggested it for characters. I do think that would be a bit silly on your part though. Just trying to be a good sport, and keep all of your options on the table. :smallsmile:

Also, if we're talking heroic tier I think it would be foolish to discount defender damage. Have you seen an ardent paladin played well? Nasty.

No, you're own observations in a home game don't mean much unless they're put to the test in other environments.

It would seem you don't wish to do that however, so not much more discussing to be had.

[Surrealistik]

I gave you the option of using a build from the site as it was you who suggested it for characters. I do think that would be a bit silly on your part though. Just trying to be a good sport, and keep all of your options on the table. :smallsmile:

Yes, I did suggest it. I suggested it precisely because those are optimized, non-customized, PvM orientated builds, and are thus a good referential sample. Introducing your own customized, PvP orientated build obviously defeats the point.


Also, if we're talking heroic tier I think it would be foolish to discount defender damage. Have you seen an ardent paladin played well? Nasty.


Yes, but then I've seen optimized Rangers, and auto-perpetually immobilizing/damaging Controller builds in the same tier. Much nastier.


No, you're own observations in a home game don't mean much unless they're put to the test in other environments.

It would seem you don't wish to do that however, so not much more discussing to be had.

Not _a_ home game, but virtually every last game, PbP, live, Maptools, or otherwise I've ever played since 4e came out. Yeah, it doesn't actually _prove_ anything, but it supports my argument more than any specific individual match up with PvP orientated characters ever will, regardless of the latter's outcome.

[tcrudisi]

a +9 to defenses when the game is balanced on hitting 55% of the time to begin with is pretty wintastic.

I mixed up the targeting of Nemesis with Discipline, not what they do. Though auto damage is always good.

Stat out your wizard's attack. If I can't top it with 5 classes I'll concede the point.

"The fact is he still outpaces your damage to the point where you simply can't keep up."

Prove it.

"I didn't say they were 'inherently better', but as a rule and _on average_, they will wipe the floor with a same level defender in PvP."

Prove it.

"Lastly, I am not interested in an arena fight; it's not entertaining and proves nothing given what this argument is actually concerned with."

Dang. Pretty sure throwing out blanket statements like that and then not backing them up AND saying that it's not relevant is bad form.

I'll play along.

Since you mentioned Platinum Scales, I'll assume that I am at a very conservative +0 to hit. I hope this is acceptable, and I think it fully appreciates the value of your +9 to all defenses. I figure that should put your defenses somewhere above ... oh, lets say 40. So I need to roll a 20 on the dice to hit.

I'll make the safe assumption that I go first. As a level 22 Wizard, I have a +35 to Initiative. I get to roll twice. Should I roll very poorly, I fortunately have an emergency back-up plan: two more rolls at +29. (I could probably get these up higher, but, well, I just don't feel like statting out the whole character.)

In the first round of combat, I will do an automatic (no dice roll required to hit): 243 points of damage, minimum. A maximum is 315. Since I've missed with my one attack roll, that means you'll be hard pressed to activate a lot of defenses (since most require a hit to activate). Even if you do manage to do so, this is repeatable.

I'm confident that I could get this up higher, but it's what I could come up with in just a few minutes of thinking about it.

[Surrealistik]

What Wizard build gets autodamage that high? Guess zone ping/ponging is involved? I've only ever really played control focused types.

As for going first, Strategist's Epiphany and call it a day really.

[Meta]

Yes, I did suggest it. I suggested it precisely because those are optimized, non-customized, PvM orientated builds, and are thus a good referential sample. Introducing your own customized, PvP orientated build obviously defeats the point.



Yes, but then I've seen optimized Rangers, and auto-perpetually immobilizing/damaging Controller builds in the same tier. Much nastier.



Not _a_ home game, but virtually every last game, PbP, live, Maptools, or otherwise I've ever played since 4e came out. Yeah, it doesn't actually _prove_ anything, but it supports my argument more than any specific individual match up with PvP orientated characters ever will, regardless of the latter's outcome.

You say nastier, I say tomato. Hard to prove without running a test or too.

I don't customize for PvP but you insisting we both take builds from other people plays into your favor, as I get the impression I'm the stronger optimizer and certainly don't just use what Char Op says is good.

As enjoyable as artificially increasing post count is, if you're unwilling to take it to the dice, I'd rather not waste my time debating in a vacuum when a perfectly good medium for settling this is unused.

[tcrudisi]

What Wizard build gets autodamage that high? Guess zone ping/ponging is involved? I've only ever really played control focused types.

Eh, that was a basic Deva Wizard. I abused the level 7 power Charm of the Defender which has a miss effect. Since it's an encounter power, Salve of Power can be used to get it back. Wrath of Battle also allows me to do the same thing, without a dice roll. Then it was just a matter of increasing slide on powers (not on hits), which I was able to get an additional +4 without trying very hard: Quickbeam Staff (+1) of Irrefutable Force (+1) after I activated my level 6 encounter power Glowering Wrath (+2). I'm sure there are other ways, I'm just too lazy to dig them up.

So yeah, it wasn't even the blaster focus, just forced movement focused (which is a form of control).

Although you are correct: Sleep works just as well. And at level 10 you should have the feats and items necessary to lock down any other class.

I counted Strategist's Epiphany, actually. That's my back-up since +29 isn't that impressive. I'm sure there are item or power bonuses to History around somewhere, I'm just too lazy to dig for them. Take the Luruar background and you get a reroll should you dislike your first roll. If that's not allowed, go Scion of an Ancient Bloodline and get +3 to your history check.

/edit - Ah! I just realized that +35 is low. I thought so. I just updated the level 10 Wizard I play in LFR and didn't bother upgrading any of my equipment. It would increase by at least +3 (making it +38) and maybe more, since the Wizard isn't decked out very well.

[Surrealistik]

You say nastier, I say tomato. Hard to prove without running a test or too.

I don't customize for PvP but you insisting we both take builds from other people plays into your favor, as I get the impression I'm the stronger optimizer and certainly don't just use what Char Op says is good.

As enjoyable as artificially increasing post count is, if you're unwilling to take it to the dice, I'd rather not waste my time debating in a vacuum when a perfectly good medium for settling this is unused.

I don't just use what Char Op says is 'good'. Hell, I've had rows with Char Op, particularly the author of the Wizard handbook there, and a couple of her yesmen over ridiculous ratings she assigns certain powers/feats because of pure anecdote/individual experience, or an otherwise mostly/totally subjective basis which is not supported by the math/facts.

Limiting things to prefabricated builds doesn't play 'into my favour' so much as it keeps things consistent, and more closely aligned with reality. You completely miss the point by making such an inane assertion. Obviously you will customize your character for PvP performance, either consciously or subconsciously because you are trying to prove a point through winning.

Again, you don't seem to understand that customized builds orientated specifically to win a PvP fight in no way proves the point being disputed: that optimized Defenders as a whole and on average (i.e. PvM orientated) are competitive with comparably optimized Controllers/Strikers in PvP. You repeatedly go on about 'rolling dice' with your specialized custom build, not seeming to understand that this in no way actually settles anything. I can only conclude you are more interested in picking a fight in an attempt to gratify your own ego than you are in actually resolving the argument.

[Meta]

I don't just use what Char Op says is 'good'. Hell, I've had rows with Char Op, particularly the author of the Wizard handbook there, and a couple of her yesmen over ridiculous ratings she assigns certain powers/feats over pure anecdote, or an otherwise mostly/totally subjective basis which is not supported by the math/facts.

Limiting things to prefabricated builds doesn't play 'into my favour' so much as it keeps things consistent, and more closely aligned with reality. You completely miss the point by making such an inane assertion. Obviously you will customize your character for PvP performance, either consciously or subconsciously because you are trying to prove a point through winning.

Again, you don't seem to understand that customized builds orientated specifically to win a PvP fight in no way proves the point being disputed; that optimized Defenders as a whole and on average (i.e. PvM orientated) are competitive with comparably optimized Controllers/Strikers in PvP. You repeatedly go on about 'rolling dice' with your specialized custom build, not seeming to understand that this in no way actually settles anything. I can only conclude you are more interested in picking a fight in an attempt to gratify your own ego than you are in actually resolving the argument.

This 'argument' started as you saying a certain role had a huge advantage in PvP. I countered and said it did not.

I tried to resolve this with an experiment or seven, but you would rather just debate.

Your 'conclusion' about my aim is completely off the mark and insulting and childish. This thread has already been derailed way past the poor OP's question and if you show no interest in actually putting your assertions to the test, I have no need or desire to continue responding to claims we both know are worthless without being backed up.

[Surrealistik]

This 'argument' started as you saying a certain role had a huge advantage in PvP. I countered and said it did not.

I tried to resolve this with an experiment or seven, but you would rather just debate.

Your 'conclusion' about my aim is completely off the mark and insulting and childish. This thread has already been derailed way past the poor OP's question and if you show no interest in actually putting your assertions to the test, I have no need or desire to continue responding to claims we both know are worthless without being backed up.

With claims that are likewise worthless as you cannot possibly back them up with any of the methods you proposed. I further do not find my insinuations childish so much as logical. Neither of us can actually prove our points with your methods, and I have reiterated as much several times throughout this thread as well as the reasons they cannot, yet you persist in pushing them; what other conclusion can I possibly arrive at?

That said, I have also offered at least a partial, sample based proof to help resolve the argument using static, PvM orientated optimized builds on the WotC Char Op forums. It is about as close we can get to a resolution without actually conducting a mass statistical analysis of actual builds used during games.

Lastly my argument has always been that Strikers/Controllers on _average_ feature huge advantages over other roles in PvP.


@ tcrudisi

That's an interesting build (well, build concept at least); forced movement specced autodamager. Definitely will put it on my try list. I've abused ping-ponging before with Enchantusionist builds, but never made it a cornerstone of my strategy due to my focus on (save ends) effects.

[Meta]

With claims that are likewise worthless as you cannot possibly back them up with any of the methods you proposed. I further do not find my insinuations childish so much as logical. Neither of us can actually prove our points with your methods, and I have reiterated as much several times throughout this thread as well as the reasons they cannot, yet you persist in pushing them; what other conclusion can I possibly arrive at?


@ tcrudisi

That's an interesting build, forced movement specced autodamager. Definitely will put it on my try list. I've abused ping-ponging before with Enchantusionist builds, but never made it a cornerstone of my strategy due to my focus on (save ends) effects.

My proposal is certainly not an end all to the discussion but it is more helpful than your lack of one

[Surrealistik]

Did I not propose we examine the relative PvP performance of PvM builds from the WotC char op forums?

[Meta]

Did I not propose we examine the relative PvP performance of PvM builds from the WotC char op forums?

Which wouldn't help much considering I'm only disputing this post:

"Totally unbalanced; Strikers, and high initiative (save ends) abusing Controllers will rape all."

rape all. not rape the average. I can prove that they most certainly won't rape all.

Though I don't think rape is the most tactful way to phrase it to begin with

[Surrealistik]

Which wouldn't help much considering I'm only disputing this post:

"Totally unbalanced; Strikers, and high initiative (save ends) abusing Controllers will rape all."

rape all. not rape the average. I can prove that they most certainly won't rape all.

Though I don't think rape is the most tactful way to phrase it to begin with

Okay, I used hyperbole and exaggeration, my bad; can we stop being pedantic now?

[Meta]

Sure thing.




The 'average' (whatever that can be agreed to mean) controller/striker will likely beat the 'average' defender/leader in a PvP scenario.

[tcrudisi]

Sure thing.




The 'average' (whatever that can be agreed to mean) controller/striker will likely beat the 'average' defender/leader in a PvP scenario.

I would take it a step further. I believe that, at all levels of equal optimization, a controller/striker will beat a defender/leader in a PvP scenario. I'm not saying the controller/striker will always win, because, let's face it: you can specifically build to counter whatever is being done. But I would assert that at the highest levels of optimization and the lowest levels, the controller/striker will win against a defender/leader.

Having said that, I enjoy a good duel. I still want to see you two build characters and throw them into an arena! :smallbiggrin:

[Surrealistik]

Average being an PvM orientated build of moderate to high levels of optimization. I'm not going to assume gimp builds for either side because that would be silly.

I personally suspect that a fully optimized PvP orientated Striker/Controller will beat a likewise optimized Defender on average, but I'm honestly not interested in researching and developing the 'best player killer build ever' to prove that. Not to mention there's always the possibility someone else can build something more PK capable: either a Controller/Striker or Defender.

[Meta]

You posted in another thread tcrudisi and reminded me to post here because I hadn't responded to your auto damage zone idea. It's definitely a good strat but in PvP anyone investing in Defiant Boots would probably mess up your kill and then be all over you.

[Goonthegoof]

Gentlemen, I present a defender (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=183524) that would beat the stuffing out of a striker in 1v1.

Though keep in mind the usual attack bonus is +37 not +40, we're playing a no errata game.

[tcrudisi]

I created a level 20 Monk (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=287384) to step up to the challenge. He's a Ghostwalker. I do have a mount (level 7), hence why I'm only level 20 (20+7 = 27, close enough to 30 I suppose).

If someone would please set up the arena and the rules, I'll happily take on the defender. And just an fyi - I haven't even looked to see what kind of defender Goon created.

[tcrudisi]

Well, the curiosity got the better of me. I looked at the level 30 defender and I'm confident that my level 20 Monk would win 90% of the fights between them (and the last 10% is only because I limited myself to items as though I was level 20 and not 30. If I were to bump myself up to level 30 equipment, I could raise that percentage up to 98-99%.)

I would still like someone to set up the arena and lay out the rules for it.

[Kurald Galain]

It's unfortunate that people immediately seem to assume that level 30 is the most representative of a character. It isn't: according to WOTC's latest RO3 column, almost nobody plays epic tier; and according to the CharOp forums, several loopholes or overpowered combos only come into play at epic.

[DimpleLoamsdown]

Hello. I am a DM for a D&D 5e quest. My party is on a quest to stop a demon king. I was thinking that the demon king could have player character stats, but I have no idea if that would work. Also, what level would he have to be if there where three player characters.

[NomGarret]

Methinks you should start a new thread in the 5e subforum, as this has basically nothing to to do with the OP.

[Surrealistik]

Would definitely recommend going with a multistage solo per MM3 guidelines over a PC build; PvP is generally a bad idea outside of very specialized contexts as it ends up being a clash of cheese/glass cannons.

[DimpleLoamsdown]

Well I was thinking of making a player character to combat the others. He would be a demon spell caster nicknamed the puppet master. Maybe I'll get NPC stats and make a PC in a later adventure when I'm a player.