Options for a fallen Paladin

[Major]

The group I'm currently DMing for is mostly new to D&D. They don't know optimization, they don't know all the books, and they love role playing (more than roll playing) which is good.

Now then, they will tend to do dumb things (mechanically speaking) in exchange for role playing options, character design, etc. Personally I love this.

Anyways, due to this whole character development and fun role playing thing, the Paladin might willingly fall by making a deal with the villain in order to save one of his friends. (Might, we haven't run it yet so no idea the outcome, but it could happen).

Now then, the question is, what options are available to a fallen paladin? On one hand, I don't see him jumping into super evil blackguard because he has a good heart. But at the same time, I don't want the player to suddenly lose all their powers and be left with useless levels because of a roleplay choice.

So if a Paladin falls what options are available other than becoming evil or being a blackguard.

Grey Guard is close to what the player is, but the problem with this lies in that they are still a part of the Paladin order.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Few ideas:

1) Let him only temporarily fall. He made a single evil choice to do a good act, and I can't see him being permanently chucked out of Paladin-hood for that. Have him be able to redeem himself either with the atonement spell and/or some appropriate act on behalf of his god/ideal. Unless the deal in question is something that sends him skipping straight over the moral horizon, he should be able to come back from that if he wants to.

2) Get Heroes of Horror, and tweak the Corrupted Avenger PrC a bit to work without taint. It gives you various boosts if you're an ex-Paladin when you enter the class.

3) Let him swap his levels of Paladin out to something like Fighter/Cleric or a Crusader. Or, heck, maybe even something like Warlock, if his deal was particularly diabolical.

4) Write a whole new class in line with the Blackguard (or just tweak the Blackguard), but for Good/Neutral fallen Paladins. There are people on the board who would help, I'm sure, if you wanted to go that route.

[Veyr]

Just don't go with either Fighter-without-bonus-feats or the Core Blackguard, as both are terrible.

Actually, the Blackguard itself isn't awful so much as impossible for a real ex-Paladin to enter.

[Cog]

We had a thread about this recently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192315) that might give you some ideas.

[only1doug]

Few ideas:

1) Let him only temporarily fall. He made a single evil choice to do a good act, and I can't see him being permanently chucked out of Paladin-hood for that. Have him be able to redeem himself either with the atonement spell and/or some appropriate act on behalf of his god/ideal. Unless the deal in question is something that sends him skipping straight over the moral horizon, he should be able to come back from that if he wants to.

2) Get Heroes of Horror, and tweak the Corrupted Avenger PrC a bit to work without taint. It gives you various boosts if you're an ex-Paladin when you enter the class.

3) Let him swap his levels of Paladin out with something like Fighter or Cleric. Or, heck, maybe even something like Warlock, if his deal was particularly diabolical.

4) Write a whole new class in line with the Blackguard (or just tweak the Blackguard), but for Good/Neutral fallen Paladins. There are people on the board who would help, I'm sure, if you wanted to go that route.

This.

I'd go with a choice of option 1 & 2 (or 4) and give him a redemption quest that will end with him choosing to become either a Grey Guard or a modified Corrupted avenger (or your new re-written neutral blackguard).

[Asarlai]

The Holy Liberator, if the fall is from LG to CG.

Complete Divine, I believe. It's my favorite ex-Paladin option.

[Blackjackg]

The scenario you described sounds like a temporary fall at best. Not even an evil act, really-- more chaotic. He goes and does some good deeds, gets an atonement spell and he's back on the horse (so to speak) before you know it.

If it's a permanent alignment change, the suggestions above are all great. You might also look into Dragon Magazine issue 310 (or maybe it's 311), which has alternate Paladin classes for every alignment. You could have the character undergo a "rebranding" quest which allows him to swap out levels 1:1.

[Major]

Thanks for the input, another thing in regards to this is what to have occur.

In regards to the story the bad guy is trying to make as many Paladins (they are very limited due to a recent war) as possible to fall (revenge and fear since he's battled them before and was badly injured). He has his people watch them, pull strings, manipulate events, to make a Paladin desperate for something and then he shows up and offers them what they need.

However, while I've set up and plotted this meeting, I've not decided yet what to make the bad guy require of the Paladin.

I also want to note that this is not forced. I'm not giving the Paladin "fall or no hope of success." This is merely the easiest and safest and most guaranteed of a couple ways to success.

He can take the option, make the deal with the villain or they can try and find another way to save their friend.

The question is merely what should the bad guy require that would make the Paladin fall (if the Paladin agrees to the deal.)

[Asarlai]

Thanks for the input, another thing in regards to this is what to have occur.

In regards to the story the bad guy is trying to make as many Paladins (they are very limited due to a recent war) as possible to fall (revenge and fear since he's battled them before and was badly injured). He has his people watch them, pull strings, manipulate events, to make a Paladin desperate for something and then he shows up and offers them what they need.

However, while I've set up and plotted this meeting, I've not decided yet what to make the bad guy require of the Paladin.

I also want to note that this is not forced. I'm not giving the Paladin "fall or no hope of success." This is merely the easiest and safest and most guaranteed of a couple ways to success.

He can take the option, make the deal with the villain or they can try and find another way to save their friend.

The question is merely what should the bad guy require that would make the Paladin fall (if the Paladin agrees to the deal.)

"Steal X and deliver it to me, and you may have your friend."

Theft is about as far as you could conceivably go. I doubt a good player would kill an innocent, even to save their friend.

[Veyr]

Do they know the character's backstory? If the Paladin knows how badly the BBEG wants him to fall, he should be able to demand not-inconsiderable power from the BBEG. Assuming the BBEG has the powers to do so, that gives an excellent way to explain the ex-Paladins new powers.

[Major]

@Asarlai: I really can't see a Paladin falling for stealing something. Is it against the law? Yes. But is it minor and petty and pretty easy to atone for in my opinion? Yes. Honestly, as a DM I'd be hesitant to make a Paladin fall just for stealing, mainly because that seems very close to the DM wanting the Paladin to fall. I'm pretty light on the Paladin players.

@Veyr: That's actually a good idea...if I do the refluff class idea it would explain where he got his power. But no the player (at the moment) doesn't know much about the BBEG other than that he is an illegal mage and he messes with souls.

[Asarlai]

@Asarlai: I really can't see a Paladin falling for stealing something. Is it against the law? Yes. But is it minor and petty and pretty easy to atone for in my opinion? Yes. Honestly, as a DM I'd be hesitant to make a Paladin fall just for stealing, mainly because that seems very close to the DM wanting the Paladin to fall. I'm pretty light on the Paladin players.

No, not "Go steal X from Merchant Y," more like "Go steal X relic from the Church of Y."

[Major]

Hmmm...even better if it is something that the bad guy could use to get more powerful and make it harder to stop him...Especially if the Paladin isn't aware of that part.

He is stealing from a sacred place, providing power to an evil person, and making it harder for them to stop him. That could get fun.

So the player hears "I can save your friend and give you power if you steal X and give it to me." I make sure player ooc knows if he accepts he will lose his paladin levels, but get new powers (insert refluffed class).

He can accept or turn down the bad guy and the party races to get to the place where the item they need is (I designed a couple possible ways to save their friend. However since their friend will die in a few days it means they are pressured to rush thus making them have to be careful with spells, encounters, etc. because they don't have time to stop much especially with travel time.)

So if he accepts the deal he guarantees they will save their friend in time (at big cost to him). If he declines he is risking his friend's life and him and the party have to move quickly.

There are a few other outcomes, but those are all on the player ingenuity and realizing things.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh, here you go:

"You want your friend back, hmmmm? Then perhaps we can see about an... arrangement.

You see, I have a follower who has... irked me. While I'm a big fan of blood sacrifices and all, I also demand secrecy of my followers, because otherwise goody-two-shoes like yourself can meddle in my plans. This follower of mine has not followed my instructions. I wish him dead. But I do not wish to start a 'witch hunt' within my own followers, I need an example of why you shouldn't be so blatant about it.

Oh yes, he also took something which does not belong to him, but instead of giving it to me, he's decided he wants to keep it.

So, you get your friend back if: 1) you kill off the blatantly evil and murderous minion of mine, in such a way that it is a lesson to all my other minions to keep quiet about their actions, and 2) Bring that to me which should be mine.

Do we have a deal?"

Of course, the problem with dealing with devils is that nothing is ever quite what it seems.

You see, the devil never actually said the thing belonged to him in the first place, and was very careful about not saying 'bring it back', merely to bring it to him. It never belonged to the devil in the first place, and it is instrumental in furthering the devil's plans.

So you are...

* actively aiding a demon cult in learning how to evade detection and make them much more dangerous

* giving a stolen artifact to a devil

* murdering, publicly, a citizen who has not been tried under law.

Yea... that right there? That's fall territory.

If he makes the deal, then reneges on it, he has broken his word. Ouch. If he makes the deal with no intentions of following through with it, then it's also deliberately lying and misleading. Also fall territory.