Help with Hengeyokai Warlock (3.5)

[Laniius]

Ok, I want to create a hengeyokai warlock character, because the idea of flying around as a sparrow raining death from above makes me feel all fuzzy inside :smallbiggrin:. I do have a problem though. If you change shape, you retain all of your spell-like abilities. The warlock's invocations (including eldritch blast) are spell-like abilities. There is an issue though: they are unique amongst SLA's in that they incur Arcane Spell Failure if wearing anything heavier than light armor. That is because they have simple somatic components. Does that mean that I cannot use them in say a sparrow form? Oh and before anyone mentions, the Hengeyokai is a race originally introduced in Oriental Adventures that can turn into a tiny or smaller animal, or a hybrid form; I want to make a sparrow one. They were updated in 3.5, removing their +1 LA and changing them from shapechanger type to humanoid with the shapechanger subtype.

[Prime32]

There is an issue though: they are unique amongst SLA's in that they incur Arcane Spell Failure if wearing anything heavier than light armor. That is because they have simple somatic components. Does that mean that I cannot use them in say a sparrow form?Only if the sparrow is wearing armor. :smalltongue:

[Daftendirekt]

I think what he was getting at was that as a sparrow he might be unable to perform the somatic components...

[Amnestic]

The way I run things like this: Somatic Components aren't just hand gestures, otherwise dragons couldn't use them while they're being all dragony and awesome. Thus, they can clearly be represented by other gestures. Hengeyokai (and Tibbits) have their racial shapechange as an integral part of their lives and culture. As such, you'd expect most spellcasters to be practised like dragons at utilising a respective somatic component while in their less humanoid forms.

This differs from utilising somatic components when polymorphed via a spell into a new non-humanoid form, as you're hardly practised or learned with whatever appendages you may have gained or lost.

Obviously that's a rule I made and undoubtedly some will disagree with it, but - to me at least - it makes sense.

[Darrin]

The way I run things like this: Somatic Components aren't just hand gestures, otherwise dragons couldn't use them while they're being all dragony and awesome. Thus, they can clearly be represented by other gestures. Hengeyokai (and Tibbits) have their racial shapechange as an integral part of their lives and culture. As such, you'd expect most spellcasters to be practised like dragons at utilising a respective somatic component while in their less humanoid forms.

This differs from utilising somatic components when polymorphed via a spell into a new non-humanoid form, as you're hardly practised or learned with whatever appendages you may have gained or lost.

Obviously that's a rule I made and undoubtedly some will disagree with it, but - to me at least - it makes sense.

The SRD addresses this:

"A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body."

However, this only applies to creatures that already have some kind of innate spellcasting abilities: dragons, sylphs, etc. While Hengeyokai in sparrow form already have wings and feet that can act as "hands" and make gestures, it's more of a DM's call if this allows them to make somatic gestures while in an alternate form. For creatures that gain spellcasting via class levels... the magic rules in the SRD specify that gestures must be made with a "hand", but it's not clear how strict this rule is for non-humanoids.

If the DM says "no hand, no somatic components", then there's a feat in Savage Species that fixes this: Surrogate Spellcasting. However, it's not clear from the description under what conditions this feat is necessary to allow a non-humanoid form to cast spells, i.e., "must have fingers", "must have an opposable thumb", "wings or flippers don't count", etc.

[TroubleBrewing]

This doesn't help you at all, but if I were your DM I'd argue Rule of Cool. It's a fun and interesting idea (not to mention hilarious), and I think that would deserve some recognition.

[Darrin]

This doesn't help you at all, but if I were your DM I'd argue Rule of Cool. It's a fun and interesting idea (not to mention hilarious), and I think that would deserve some recognition.

Yes, very cool... until the DM realizes that in sparrow form, the warlock has a +14 attack bonus on all of his eldritch blasts (ranged touch attack, +6 Dex bonus, +8 size bonus), +22 bonus on Hide checks (+6 Dex bonus, +16 size bonus), and a "nekkid" AC of 24 (+6 Dex bonus, +8 size bonus). At level 1, with no level adjustment.

Having to pay a "feat tax" with Surrogate Spellcasting to enjoy that much Rule of Cool might be justified.

[TroubleBrewing]

Tiny isn't a +8 size bonus to hit. It's only +2. Ditto for the AC. The +14 hide bonus (+6 Dex, +8 to size, not the +16 you suggested) isn't such a big deal, though. It makes for a nice sneaky character, but it's the same as playing an awakened animal like a monkey, which coincidentally also possesses no LA or feat tax.

[Amnestic]

Sparrows are Fine, not Tiny...though I'm not sure why - they can't be much (if at all) smaller than Bats, which are Diminutive. For that matter, Carp (also on the Hengeyokai list) probably should be Tiny.

Edit: And, wait, would this even matter for Eldritch Blast? I might be blind but I can't see anything in its entry indicating it has a Somatic Component. It's quite clearly separate from Invocations just as a Dragonfire Adept's Breath Weapon is quite clearly separate. Am I missing something?

Edit2: Redacted. Found it. Duh, stupid me. I am blind.

[Laniius]

So there's no actual errata for this kind of thing? Ok then, I may just end up asking the DM what he thinks, it may fall under rule zero. I'm going to make a Dragonfire Adept instead. Tibbit instead of Hengeyokai - sparrow form knocks my con down to 10 which would hamper my breath weapon. Anyone think it's worth being a fire breathing sparrow when the save dc for the breath weapon would be so low? Also with tibbit and the draconic wings invocation I could be a flying, fire breathing kitty.

Also, would it make the dragonfire adept and warlock classes too strong if they can pick and choose between eachother's invocations?

[Daftendirekt]

With tibbit and the draconic wings invocation I could be a flying, fire breathing kitty.

Win. So much win.

[Laniius]

Has savage species been updated to 3.5 at all anywhere? I know it's technically backwards compatible, but I play in a very 3.0 phobic group. That's why I was using the 3.5 Hengeyokai from that dragon magazine (well, that and that the 3.5 version lost the +1 LA while retaining everything except for its type - I can live with that). I've long had the urge to play with some of the monster class levels from there or an anthropomorphic ape or something. Where are the rules on awakened animals as PC's?

[Amnestic]

Also, would it make the dragonfire adept and warlock classes too strong if they can pick and choose between eachother's invocations?

In my opinion? No, it would not. There is an online WotC feat called 'Infernal Adept' which a class can take to get Invocations from the other (DFA can choose from Warlock list, Warlocks from DFA) however it is limited in that you can only choose Invocations two grades below your maximum level, which means you can only get Least and Lesser.

I personally don't see a problem with merging the two lists. They're not breaking the game with them.

[Urpriest]

Has savage species been updated to 3.5 at all anywhere? I know it's technically backwards compatible, but I play in a very 3.0 phobic group. That's why I was using the 3.5 Hengeyokai from that dragon magazine (well, that and that the 3.5 version lost the +1 LA while retaining everything except for its type - I can live with that). I've long had the urge to play with some of the monster class levels from there or an anthropomorphic ape or something. Where are the rules on awakened animals as PC's?

There are no rules for awakened animals as PCs, unfortunately. No rules for CRs for them either. I get the feeling the game designers didn't expect them to get into combat.

Savage Species is unfortunately not in the 3.5 update booklet. It's kinda 3.25, since it emerged pretty close to the transition, but I don't think there's a full update of it anywhere.

[Laniius]

Hmmm. Assuming that Savage Species is ok with my DM (don't know yet, have to ask) would Surrogate Spellcasting or Supernatural Transformation allow me to use Eldritch Blast as a Sparrow-form Hengeyokai? I would argue that the Hengeyokai has an alternate form that is non-humanoid or nonhumanlike, and that Surrogate Spellcasting would therefore allow me to use my Warlock abilities in Sparrow form. However, Supernatural Transformation seems even better as it gets rid of the spell resistance aspect of the warlock's eldritch blast, and makes it so my EB wouldn't provoke AOO's - problem: Is eldritch blast, gained through character levels, considered innate? That is the prereq for Supernatural Transformation.

[Urpriest]

Generally speaking, innate means not gained through class levels.

[Laniius]

Generally speaking, innate means not gained through class levels.

Balls.

Anyway, taking advantage of all the nice people in this thread, I am trying to make a skillmonkey warlock or dragonfire adept; someone who primarily focusses on skills like open lock, disable device, and knowledge skills and that kind of thing for my group. On paper the dragonfire adept is better for this as it gets 4 + int skill points per level compared to the warlock's 2 + int, but are there any sneaky-type prestige classes that benefit the warlock? I'm taking 2 levels of rogue and the able learner feat. I would have gone factotum 2 instead, but my race is the tibbit (who have a favoured class of rogue; my DM is allowing me to waive the race requirement for able learner)

Right now my build is tibbit rogue 2/dragonfire adept 10 but are there any prestige classes that help in making a sneaky warlock or dragonfire adept? I was also wondering: some classes benefit the warlock by allowing them to apply effects to their eldritch blast, like the Eldritch Disciple. Would a Dragonfire Adept be able to add those abilities to their breath weapon?

Edit: And I know that this isn't optimized for the role I'm trying to fulfill (That of the skillmonkey) but I've been itching to play a stealthy character and a dragonfire adept type character for a long time now. The sneaking thing doesn't come up too much for my group, and 3 of the 4 DM's I've had in the past absolutely dislike any dragon-themed classes or races and so put the banhammer down (I know, it's half the name of the game, but what can you do) and I don't know how long this particular DM will be running his campaign so I put them together. It's likely going to be a Diablo style dungeon crawl.

[Laniius]

Question for you folks. Under the warlock and prestige classing, it says

Warlocks benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that
have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1
level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement
benefit. A warlock taking levels in such a prestige class
does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain
an increased caster level when using his invocations and
increased damage with his eldritch blast. Levels of prestige
classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively
stack with the warlock’s level to determine his eldritch blast damage (treat his combined caster level as his warlock class level when looking at Table 1–1: The Warlock to determineeldritch blast damage) and his eldritch blast caster level (half his total caster level from his warlock levels and his levels in the prestige class that grant him an increased spellcasting level). A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class.

The dragonfire adept has the same entry caveats (i.e. they don't actually cast spells) and says "levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the dragonfire adept's level to determine her breath weapon damage and save DC. she also gains new invocations at each prestige class level as though she had risen a level in the dragonfire adept class" and it does not increase any other class features.

Problem: Dragonfire adept's breath effects; which are akin to the Warlock's Eldritch Essence/Blast Shape invocations; are class features, and not invocations in and of themselves. I want to ask my DM if the +1 level of arcane spellcasting/ +1 level of spellcasting can stack with dragonfire adept levels to determine breath effects known.

Do you think this is a reasonable request, given that the warlock can increase his invocations known (EB damage, blast shapes, eldritch essences, and other invocations) with prestige classes while the dragonfire adept, with RAW, can only increase breath weapon damage, invocations known, but not breath effects known?

[Darrin]

Anyone think it's worth being a fire breathing sparrow when the save dc for the breath weapon would be so low?


There are several metabreath/breath weapon feats that don't care much about save DCs (notably, Entangling Exhalation).



Also, would it make the dragonfire adept and warlock classes too strong if they can pick and choose between eachother's invocations?

It's only available around ECL 11, but the Infernal Adept feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613) does just that.




On paper the dragonfire adept is better for this as it gets 4 + int skill points per level compared to the warlock's 2 + int, but are there any sneaky-type prestige classes that benefit the warlock? I'm taking 2 levels of rogue and the able learner feat. I would have gone factotum 2 instead, but my race is the tibbit (who have a favoured class of rogue; my DM is allowing me to waive the race requirement for able learner)


Unseen Seer is the best PrC for advancing sneakiness and invocations. The best way to get into it is a 1-level dip into Beguiler. For example:

Beguiler 1/DFA 4/Unseen Seer 10

However, sounds like your DM is using multiclass penalties... and also, Unseen Seer advances Sneak Attack, but Beguiler doesn't get that. How about:

Rogue 1/DFA 4/Assassin (or Avenger) 1/Unseen Seer 10

You don't get evasion, though... if you need that, then Rogue 2/DFA 3/Assassin 1 should work fine. Actually, instead of assassin, any 1-level arcane spellcasting dip should work just fine, so long as it can cast two 1st level divination spells. If you need more BAB, even Duskblade + Arcane Disciple (to get a second divination spell) might work.

[Laniius]

There are several metabreath/breath weapon feats that don't care much about save DCs (notably, Entangling Exhalation).



It's only available around ECL 11, but the Infernal Adept feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613) does just that.

Edit: That is a horrible feat. 1 feat per invocation known and the invocations can't be at my highest level known? Bah. I think I'll stick with the invocations on each individual list rather than take that.



Unseen Seer is the best PrC for advancing sneakiness and invocations. The best way to get into it is a 1-level dip into Beguiler. For example:

Beguiler 1/DFA 4/Unseen Seer 10

However, sounds like your DM is using multiclass penalties... and also, Unseen Seer advances Sneak Attack, but Beguiler doesn't get that. How about:

Rogue 1/DFA 4/Assassin (or Avenger) 1/Unseen Seer 10

You don't get evasion, though... if you need that, then Rogue 2/DFA 3/Assassin 1 should work fine. Actually, instead of assassin, any 1-level arcane spellcasting dip should work just fine, so long as it can cast two 1st level divination spells. If you need more BAB, even Duskblade + Arcane Disciple (to get a second divination spell) might work.

That is basically the build I settled on. Only I ended up with Factotum 3/Dragonfire Adept (or Warlock) 2/Assassin 1/Shadowdancer 1/Unseen Seer 5 for an ECL of 12 (the level I will be bringing this character in). Factotum 3 to get brains over brawn to allow me to use int for almost everything, assassin 1 for the required divination spells and a sneak attack dice, shadowdancer 1 for hide in plain sight. Is this a viable build? Or would rogue 2 (feat variant)/dragonfire adept (or warlock) 3/assassin 1/Unseen Seer 6 be more worthwhile (it'd give me to extra feats and a better BAB, and more dragonfire adept stuff too). The warlock is in parentheses as I am in discussion with my DM whether I can use my EB in cat form as a tibbet if I choose warlock and if I can use prestige classes to advance breath weapon if I choose Dragonfire Adept. And ya, we are using multiclass penalties.

[Darrin]

Factotum 3 to get brains over brawn to allow me to use int for almost everything, assassin 1 for the required divination spells and a sneak attack dice, shadowdancer 1 for hide in plain sight. Is this a viable build? Or would rogue 2 (feat variant)/dragonfire adept (or warlock) 3/assassin 1/Unseen Seer 6 be more worthwhile (it'd give me to extra feats and a better BAB, and more dragonfire adept stuff too).


BAB would be the same. The two feats you get would have to be fighter bonus feats... but it sounds like this character isn't really designed for melee, so I'm not sure fighter bonus feats would help all that much... particularly for DFA, which generally doesn't use attack rolls for combat.



The warlock is in parentheses as I am in discussion with my DM whether I can use my EB in cat form as a tibbet if I choose warlock and if I can use prestige classes to advance breath weapon if I choose Dragonfire Adept. And ya, we are using multiclass penalties.

Yes, +1 spellcasting advances both your draconic invocations, breath weapon damage, and breath weapon save DC. That's in Dragon Magic, sidebar on page 24. However, you don't get additional breath effects or the range doubling at DFA 10.

The main advantage to Tibbit DFA is you can maximize your Con score and dump Str completely. Combat-wise, your breath is an area effect so you don't have to worry about BAB or attack rolls. That and you're a flying firebreathing housecat, which is just pure awesomesauce.

The main advantage of a Tibbit Warlock is you get a Dex bonus, can still dump Str completely, and you're a flying housecat that shoots people with demonic laserblasts.

If I really wanted to screw with the other players, I'd pay an NPC hireling with lots of Bluff and Perform: Acting to pretend to be my character while my tibbit pretended to be his "familiar".

[Laniius]

Bahaha I just might. Maybe spend a feat on leadership for once and have a cohort that covers the holes in my build. Surprise the... fudge? (don't yet know the swearing rules on this board and I have the mouth of a sailor) out of the party when I shift into something that has thumbs to take care of a trap.

My DM may allow the prestige classes to advance breath effects, as they are nothing more than the blast/eldritch essence effects that the warlock gets, just accrued as a different part of the class. Also, I'm not sure if the warlock tibbit can use his eldritch blasts as a kitty-kat. Yes, it's a spell-like ability, but it's a spell-like ability that incurs arcane spell failure and therefore has somatic components; their Edit: they're simple, but are they simple enough to use without thumbs? The breath weapon of the DFA doesn't have this problem.