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Surrealistik
2011-03-29, 01:40 AM
Monster pack of homebrew Demons. More will come later. Constructive criticism appreciated.

Note that the majority of these monsters are balanced assuming a relatively optimized party, and are designed to challenge parties used to Level +3-4 encounters, so you should keep that in mind when offering feedback/balance critiques.

Epic Tier:

Incarnation of Slaughter, Level 30 Elite Brute (Leader)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-incarnationofslaughter.jpg?t=1301854953

Approximation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImaRTc--T8w&feature=related

Tactics: Brutish and simple: close in on and focus attacks on the party members with the lowest hit points always, while trying to hit as many other party members in the process as possible. It otherwise attacks such as to maximize the number of party members its attacks target. It does not care about catching allies in its attacks. Completely ignores any disincentive to act otherwise, including marks and opportunity attacks.

Paragon Tier:

Slaughter Demon, Level 15 Brute
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-slaughterdemon.jpg?t=1301514777

Tactics: See Incarnation of Slaughter.

Chaos Elemental, Level 15 Artillery
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-chaoselemental.jpg?t=1301948759

Tactics: The Chaos Elemental assumes basic and rudimentary tactics, attempting to keep its distance from enemies with flight while catching as many of them as possible within its attack area of effects, typically preferring to attack the weakest (most damaged) and closest enemy. It does not care about catching allies in its attacks.

Heroic Tier:

Lust Demon, Level 10 Controller
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-lustdemon.jpg?t=1301673161

Tactics: The lust demon is a cunning opponent, and will at first attempt to 'peacefully' seduce and charm the PCs into doing its bidding. Should it need to feed, it will attempt to separate a character from the group, so it can consume him (or her; lust demons can assume a form of any or no gender) with relative ease, perhaps posing as an alluring maiden with an intimate interest in that character, or a frightened child, urging hasty assistance to a secluded, dark niche where it will strike.

In combat, it will take flight, beyond the range of melee threats and use its Abyssal Allure and Entrancing Presence to maximum effect, only engaging enemies in melee when it absolutely must. Once it has dazed a considerable number of enemies, it will use Overwhelming Desire, and land adjacent to as many thralls as possible. It often will keep the one with the weakest defenses/lowest hp at its side to absorb hits while commanding the others to charge their comrades, or each other. It will return to the air again and repeat this process if too many thralls save against the domination effect. If defeat seems probable or imminent, it will flee.

Wrath Demon, Level 10 Brute
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-wrathdemon.jpg?t=1301702466

Tactics: The wrath demon's tactics are brutal and simple: mercilessly attack the PC dealing the most damage to it by whatever means possible until it's dead. It always prioritizes its targets by the person dealing the most damage. It will always attempt to use Overwhelming Wrath, and its triggered actions whenever possible.

Pride Demon, Level 10 Soldier (Leader)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-pridedemon.jpg?t=1302056834

Tactics: The Pride Demon will open the combat by moving to encompass as many party members as it can in a 5 square radius before unleashing Pride Overwhelming. It will then unceasingly go after the most damaging party member, constantly marking and attacking it, taking care to position itself to encompass as many allies as possible. It will use Pride Overwhelming the moment it recharges, targeting as many opponents as possible. It will prioritize the weakest bloodied targets above all others, so as to best exploit its aura, and will direct its allies to coordinate an attack on the same enemy. When near death, it will seek to be defeated by a bloodied opponent so it stands a much greater chance of resurrecting with Bloodied But Unbowed.

The Pride Demon, true to its name, will never flee, and will always fight to the death.

Lesser Earthblight Elemental, Level 4 Soldier
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-earthblightelemental-lesser.jpg?t=1301859224

Tactics: The Earthblight Elemental will always attempt to grab the maximum number of enemies it can with Earthen Grasp and Earthbind. Thereafter, it will spam Savage Grasp, bunching its victims as advantageously as possible, while singling out a target to whale on with Earthen Assault (typically the weakest/most hurt enemy). It will immediately attempt to regrab any who manage to escape from its grabs. As with the other corrupted elementals, it will pursue and savage any creature that attempts to exploit its weaknesses mercilessly until that creature dies.

Lesser Balefire Elemental, Level 3 Skirmisher
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-balefireelemental-lesser.jpg?t=1301855300

Tactics: This corrupted fire elemental is thoroughly malevolent and bloodthirsty, vastly preferring to close in on and harry the weakest, most injured party members. It constantly exploits Leap From Abyssal Flame and Call of Burning Torments to follow and hound its chosen quarry mercilessly, often ignoring marks and other disincentives. It will not stop until either it is destroyed, its quarry is dead, or it can sense and reach a more injured target of opportunity. It will relentlessly savage anyone who hits it with cold damage above all others, immediately changing its priority target to that enemy.

Lesser Blackwater Elemental, Level 3 Controller
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-blackwaterelemental-lesser.jpg?t=1301855271

Tactics: The Blackwater Elemental tactics are fairly straightforward. It will exploit its Fluid Body trait and Drowning Essence to remain at a distance whenever possible, spamming Noxious Spray. When several opponents are tightly grouped, it will immediately attack with Blackwater Breaker. It will also try to maneuver enemies into bunches in order to exploit this attack optimally using Drowning Essence. When it can, it will use either of its attacks to shift into an advantageous position. Enemies it cannot advantageously position with Drowning Essence it will damage instead.

The Blackwater Elemental will prioritize any enemy that attempts to exploit its Vulnerability to Freezing trait, savaging that opponent mercilessly.

Lesser Darkwind Elemental, Level 3 Lurker
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-darkwindelemental-lesser.jpg?t=1301946461

Tactics: The Darkwind Elemental will immediately attempt to hide if it cannot move and attack a target with Grasp of Storms on the same turn, preferably taking to the air outside of proximity to enemies, and the range of melee combatants. Each turn, it will use Ominous Wind as much as it can to position enemies advantageously, or prone them for itself or allies, especially while hidden and stalking a target. It will always attempt to grab an enemy with Grasp of Storms until successful, swooping down from the air, and will always try to be in a position to exploit Phantom on the Wind before grabbing a target in this way (again, remaining in the air out of proximity to most enemies). As it shifts when moving, and can move through occupied squares, it does not fear opportunity attacks for movement, and will move through foes to reach its desired quarry. It prefers to target the weakest and most heavily damaged enemies by default, but will quickly switch priorities to the enemy dealing the most damage to it (unless grabbing an enemy).

Once it has grabbed a target, it will spam Driving Gale and Ominous Wind to hinder enemies and keep them away from itself so it can feed on its victim unmolested with Consuming Grasp. It will drain its pray until death, continuing to feed upon it even after its victim becomes unconscious, or until it is discorporated by fire damage, after which it will go after the person who discorporated it until death.

As with the other corrupted elementals, it will mercilessly prioritize and attack any opponent that tries to exploit its vulnerabilities.

Deathdarken
2011-03-29, 09:48 AM
ill be looking forward to seeing more. this guy scares me a bit

Leeham
2011-03-29, 10:23 AM
Stik, this is disgusting. I shall be using this at some point.

Nu
2011-03-29, 11:01 AM
Well, I'm not really sure of the specifics of epic combat yet, so I can't give a lot of balance feedback. However, I do wonder what the point of a "basic close attack" is. I don't think it could be used on a charge or as an opportunity attack (those require melee attacks). Perhaps it should have a melee basic attack of some sort? Otherwise you could just fold rending fury into wake of slaughter, as I can see no possible reason why the monster would ever use rending fury on its turn instead of wake of slaughter.

Surrealistik
2011-03-29, 11:35 AM
Well, I'm not really sure of the specifics of epic combat yet, so I can't give a lot of balance feedback. However, I do wonder what the point of a "basic close attack" is. I don't think it could be used on a charge or as an opportunity attack (those require melee attacks). Perhaps it should have a melee basic attack of some sort? Otherwise you could just fold rending fury into wake of slaughter, as I can see no possible reason why the monster would ever use rending fury on its turn instead of wake of slaughter.

It wouldn't. Rending Fury is there purely for Wake of Slaughter to reference, and as a medium of delivering opportunity attacks/charges; Rending Fury has a Special: clause which explicitly states it is usable as a melee basic attack.

Surrealistik
2011-03-29, 02:48 PM
Added the Incarnation's Paragon little brother, the Slaughter Demon.

I'm thinking I should orientate them to be especially resistant to charm and fear effects, so that will be a likely revision down the road.

Until I revisit them, I'll be working on WH40k style demons that are avatars/manifestations of various negative emotions, and corrupted 'normal' elementals (fire, water, air and the like).

Lemonus
2011-03-29, 09:14 PM
These are really cool!

What are you using for the monster's stat blocks?

Nu
2011-03-30, 07:49 AM
Something really wacky seems to be going on with the slaughter demon. A brute of its level with 29 Constitution should have 189 hit points, not 246 (and the monster builder's arbitrary HP% mods shouldn't really be used, unless you want the grindy combat of pre-MV/MM3 to return). The Fortitude and Will defenses also seem unnaturally high.

Anyways, standard monsters aren't really supposed to have huge laundry lists of abilities like that. You should make it an elite, in my opinion, if you want it to be that powerful (it would also give it more HP). I checked the monster vault, and there were four level 14 brutes, and none of them had more than 4 combined powers/traits.

Surrealistik
2011-03-30, 09:57 AM
Something really wacky seems to be going on with the slaughter demon. A brute of its level with 29 Constitution should have 189 hit points, not 246 (and the monster builder's arbitrary HP% mods shouldn't really be used, unless you want the grindy combat of pre-MV/MM3 to return). The Fortitude and Will defenses also seem unnaturally high.

Yes, the builder doesn't factor in Abilities. Fortitude and Will are intentionally high for the Slaughter line; might ramp Fortitude down a bit, but Will is definitely supposed to be their strongest defense. Hit points are high because it's a Brute, and because its AC defense is exceptionally low; it's meant to be a creature the PCs will as a whole hit often, but must hit plenty.


Anyways, standard monsters aren't really supposed to have huge laundry lists of abilities like that. You should make it an elite, in my opinion, if you want it to be that powerful (it would also give it more HP). I checked the monster vault, and there were four level 14 brutes, and none of them had more than 4 combined powers/traits.

Yes, this was a concern, I'm trying to find ways to simplify the Slaughter Demon without sacrificing too much of its flavour; I'm looking to make a minion/standard/elite and solo version at each tier.



These are really cool!

What are you using for the monster's stat blocks?

The WotC offline Monster Builder. Great utility, though unfortunately very buggy.

Nu
2011-03-30, 11:28 AM
Yes, the builder doesn't factor in Abilities. Fortitude and Will are intentionally high for the Slaughter line; might ramp Fortitude down a bit, but Will is definitely supposed to be their strongest defense. Hit points are high because it's a Brute, and because its AC defense is exceptionally low; it's meant to be a creature the PCs will as a whole hit often, but must hit plenty.

Fair enough, though the adventure tools application does actually factor in ability scores--but only up to a certain point. For example, if I crank up my level 24 solo dragon's strength from 28 to 32, its Fortitude defense changes from 36 to 37. However, past that, its Fortitude defense doesn't change, even if I crank strength all the way up to 50 (likewise, if I lower the Strength to 25, Fortitude defense drops to 35).

24 AC is a fair bit lower than normal AC for a level 15 monster, which is good with what you're going for. NADs for level 15 monsters seem to range around the mid-20's range, and I'd be extremely hesitant to push them over 30, even if it's supposed to be a "strong" defense.

With that said, I don't think you have to give up the theme you're going for to make the monster the way you want it to be. I would reduce the number of powers, but give them more riders and triggers on enemies becoming bloodied, the demon being bloodied, the demon dropping enemies, etc. Here's a quick example I whipped up (despite the similarity, it's not intended to replace your version, just maybe give you some ideas):

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1663/massacrecu.pngEdit: Actually, I'd consider making the triggered action an opportunity action or immediate reaction, just so it can't use it on its turn.

(By the way, I did check something an demons are elementals now rather than immortals--devils are the immortals).

Surrealistik
2011-03-30, 11:37 AM
24 AC is a fair bit lower than normal AC for a level 15 monster, which is good with what you're going for. NADs for level 15 monsters seem to range around the mid-20's range, and I'd be extremely hesitant to push them over 30, even if it's supposed to be a "strong" defense.

I think the Slaughter Demon's weaknesses are prevalent enough to permit that strength; not every PC is going to be a top contributor in every battle. I struggled against every instinct and predisposition to avoid making the Slaughter line Charm/Fear immune.

Speaking of immunities, I really hate these things. There is nothing more poorly designed, or less interesting, fair or fun than a creature slathered in no-you-can't. I promise never to resort to them unless I'm stating out some sort of deity (or construct/undead).


With that said, I don't think you have to give up the theme you're going for to make the monster the way you want it to be. I would reduce the number of powers, but give them more riders and triggers on enemies becoming bloodied, the demon being bloodied, the demon dropping enemies, etc. Here's a quick example I whipped up:

Yeah, that's close to the revision I had in mind, though the riders are completely different. I do like the notion of keying riders to bloodied status though. The Frenzy/Thirst merge was an idea I had toyed with, but I ultimately decided to keep them separate for the sake of clarity and ease of reference.


(By the way, I did check something an demons are elementals now rather than immortals--devils are the immortals).

Yes that was a mistake, forgot to change that over.

Surrealistik
2011-03-30, 03:53 PM
Revised the Slaughter Demon, added the Chaos Elemental:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-chaoselemental.jpg?t=1301947746

Temassasin
2011-03-30, 08:18 PM
nice but...
IDF
I Demand Fluff

Surrealistik
2011-03-30, 11:35 PM
nice but...
IDF
I Demand Fluff

Patience, it'll come :P

Second of the corrupted elementals: Lesser Balefire Elemental
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-balefireelemental-lesser.jpg?t=1301546802

Surrealistik
2011-03-31, 12:08 PM
One of the 'emotion' demons, the Lust Demon:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/demon-lustdemon.jpg?t=1301613601

I do welcome suggestions for fluff/names by the way. That said, the basic premise of the emotion demons is that they're psychosomatic constructs, and are emotions made manifest, often darkly twisted and warped by abyssal energies.

Temassasin
2011-03-31, 05:15 PM
Maybe Emotion Demons are mortals kidnapped by Demon lords and then are presented with situations which makes them focus on a Emotion then are subjected to Dark Magics?

Tanuki Tales
2011-03-31, 11:40 PM
You misspelled fueled.

Surrealistik
2011-04-01, 01:37 AM
Maybe Emotion Demons are mortals kidnapped by Demon lords and then are presented with situations which makes them focus on a Emotion then are subjected to Dark Magics?

I think of them more as emotions given form in the elemental chaos, and corrupted by abyssal evil.


You misspelled fueled.

Nah, alternate spelling.

Surrealistik
2011-04-01, 12:24 PM
Added the Wrath Demon, Level 10 Brute.

Surrealistik
2011-04-02, 06:51 PM
Added the Lesser Blackwater Elemental, Level 3 Controller.

Shadow_Elf
2011-04-02, 07:20 PM
I'm just going to address the first monster, the Incarnation of Slaughter, for now.
1) +5 to attack rolls vs. Bloodied enemies is obscene. Since attacks and defenses scale roughly with level, +5 at epic is pretty much just as good as +5 at heroic - would you give a +5 attack bonus passive feature to a heroic monster?. Nothing gets attack bonuses this high; I would tone it down to +2, which is far more reasonable. Similarly, Blood Fury should probably be a damage bonus instead of an attack bonus, since the two traits would otherwise stack and maybe have the magnitude of that bonus lowered to +4. I am just imagining one of these who is bloodied and attacking bloodied enemies hitting the PCs every time on anything but a 1 with all of its powers; a scenario which, with these traits, is not all that unlikely.

2) Powers which constantly regain hitpoints are, as a rule, not fun. Giving a monster more damage is always preferable to making it recover hitpoints, without exception. Heavy HP recovery like this on monsters just makes combat drag out to no purpose. Fuelled by Slaughter should be changed to not restore hitpoints.

3) This monster's defenses are all out of wack. Defenses should vary, at most, +/- 3 from a creature of that level. AC 39 is 3 less than a Brute should have; alright, fine. Reflex is average, okay. Will is at +5, and Fortitude at +7; any of your PCs which target these defenses will just get frustrated. This makes the demon un-fun to battle. I would recommend changing them to:
AC 40, Fortitude 44, Reflex 42 and Will 43.

4) Is it just me, or does this monster have 200+ more hitpoints than it should for its level? Either I am doing the math wrong, or this creature should have 668 HP. See point 2) for my reasoning why +hitpoints is never, ever a good idea.

5) This creature's attacks are obscene. With Slaughter Storm, it can easily get a PC's ongoing damage up to 100+, especially with its above-average attack bonuses for a brute. The brute math says that this thing should attack at +32 vs. AC, +30 vs. AC on area attacks. In addition, if anyone provokes an AoO from this creep, they can essentially screw their whole team over because the retaliation comes in the form of an AoE attack. Please consider revising all three of the attack powers, especially Slaughter Storm and its absurdly easy recharged condition.

6) Indomitable Hunger prevents your PC controllers from even participating in the fight, really. This isn't immunity, but it is pretty damn close - a saving throw with a +7 bonus succeeds on anything but a 2 or a 1. So, even though one of your design goals was not to give it any immunities, you have basically made this thing immune to any condition that can stand in its way.

7) Deathless Fury is alright, but since it is based off of Slaughter Storm, it has to be changed when that power gets changed.

Surrealistik
2011-04-02, 10:16 PM
I'm just going to address the first monster, the Incarnation of Slaughter, for now.
1) +5 to attack rolls vs. Bloodied enemies is obscene. Since attacks and defenses scale roughly with level, +5 at epic is pretty much just as good as +5 at heroic - would you give a +5 attack bonus passive feature to a heroic monster?. Nothing gets attack bonuses this high; I would tone it down to +2, which is far more reasonable. Similarly, Blood Fury should probably be a damage bonus instead of an attack bonus, since the two traits would otherwise stack and maybe have the magnitude of that bonus lowered to +4. I am just imagining one of these who is bloodied and attacking bloodied enemies hitting the PCs every time on anything but a 1 with all of its powers; a scenario which, with these traits, is not all that unlikely.

2) Powers which constantly regain hitpoints are, as a rule, not fun. Giving a monster more damage is always preferable to making it recover hitpoints, without exception. Heavy HP recovery like this on monsters just makes combat drag out to no purpose. Fuelled by Slaughter should be changed to not restore hitpoints.

3) This monster's defenses are all out of wack. Defenses should vary, at most, +/- 3 from a creature of that level. AC 39 is 3 less than a Brute should have; alright, fine. Reflex is average, okay. Will is at +5, and Fortitude at +7; any of your PCs which target these defenses will just get frustrated. This makes the demon un-fun to battle. I would recommend changing them to:
AC 40, Fortitude 44, Reflex 42 and Will 43.

4) Is it just me, or does this monster have 200+ more hitpoints than it should for its level? Either I am doing the math wrong, or this creature should have 668 HP. See point 2) for my reasoning why +hitpoints is never, ever a good idea.

5) This creature's attacks are obscene. With Slaughter Storm, it can easily get a PC's ongoing damage up to 100+, especially with its above-average attack bonuses for a brute. The brute math says that this thing should attack at +32 vs. AC, +30 vs. AC on area attacks. In addition, if anyone provokes an AoO from this creep, they can essentially screw their whole team over because the retaliation comes in the form of an AoE attack. Please consider revising all three of the attack powers, especially Slaughter Storm and its absurdly easy recharged condition.

6) Indomitable Hunger prevents your PC controllers from even participating in the fight, really. This isn't immunity, but it is pretty damn close - a saving throw with a +7 bonus succeeds on anything but a 2 or a 1. So, even though one of your design goals was not to give it any immunities, you have basically made this thing immune to any condition that can stand in its way.

7) Deathless Fury is alright, but since it is based off of Slaughter Storm, it has to be changed when that power gets changed.

First off, I want to state the majority of these monsters are balanced assuming a relatively optimized party, designed to challenge parties used to L+3-4 encounters, so you should keep that in mind when offering feedback (I'm going to add this to the OP).

1) Yes it is a powerful effect, and I think it's about par for an epic enemy designed as a challenge for optimized builds. Changing it to simply increase damage would definitely be an overnerf. Might decrement both traits to a +4 bonus.

2) Agree with this; will probably change it to a damage bonus.

3) While this may surprise you, those defenses are strictly in keeping with the automated defaults of the Monster Builder, with the standard variations (-3 to +6). I don't see a problem here. Fortitude and Will are +6 for the Slaughter series. May decrease Fortitude to a +3.

4) +30% of base HP (within standard variance). Compensated for by easily hittable AC/Reflex.

5) Yep. As intended. Standard Brute attack bonus for AC at this level is actually 33; I deliberately increased it to 35, but I agree that's probably much. Further, at this point save granting, and ongoing mitigation is generally common for an optimized party. Wake of Slaughter was actually revised to max 3 attacks; haven't thrown up the latest build yet.

6) Not an optimized controller with masses of save penalizers; the huge bonus was meant to account for this; I'll revisit the math for this and make sure they can keep pace (I'm fairly certain they can). If revised, I will probably give him a reduced bonus to saving throws vs conditions specifically, and allow him to make a saving throw as no-action 1/round when they get hit by a condition.

7) Deathless Fury is probably fine with the new cap on Slaughter Storm. Slaughter Storm I will further nerf so that it only recharges the first time a creature is bloodied. Will have to change Deathless Fury so that it recoups HP for each hit, so it works as intended after Fuelled by Slaughter is changed.

Mulletmanalive
2011-04-03, 08:00 AM
On the blackwater elemental, the amount of ongoing damage seems rather high for a non-elite creature at level 3. 2 ongoing seems like it would be more in line with the other stuff of its level...

Surrealistik
2011-04-03, 11:50 AM
On the blackwater elemental, the amount of ongoing damage seems rather high for a non-elite creature at level 3. 2 ongoing seems like it would be more in line with the other stuff of its level...

The Lesser Blackwater Elemental was based off of the level 1 Lesser Water Elemental, which has an at-will damaging power that also deals untyped ongoing 5 (save ends) damage.

Lesser Blackwater Elemental, Lesser Balefire Elemental and the Incarnation of Slaughter have all been updated.

Mulletmanalive
2011-04-03, 12:14 PM
ah, fair enough then

Nu
2011-04-03, 12:25 PM
Er. Was the balefire elemental meant to have resist 30 fire? That's awfully high for a level 3 creature.

The other resistances seem rather high as well, though somewhat balanced out by their vulnerabilities. Perhaps the blackwater elemental could lose its resistance to melee and ranged attacks when hit by cold damage?

Surrealistik
2011-04-03, 01:36 PM
Er. Was the balefire elemental meant to have resist 30 fire? That's awfully high for a level 3 creature.

No, typo. Was supposed to be resist 20.


The other resistances seem rather high as well, though somewhat balanced out by their vulnerabilities. Perhaps the blackwater elemental could lose its resistance to melee and ranged attacks when hit by cold damage?

I like that idea. Integrated resist melee/ranged with Fluid Body. Also replaced phasing with the ability to move through occupied squares (except blocking terrain), and integrated it with Fluid Body.

Updated: Incarnation of Slaughter updated (for real!).

Added: Lesser Earthblight Elemental, Level 4 Soldier

Surrealistik
2011-04-04, 01:00 PM
Added: Lesser Darkwind Elemental, Level 3 Lurker

Surrealistik
2011-04-05, 08:21 PM
Added: Pride Demon, Level 10 Soldier (Leader)