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DragonBaneDM
2011-03-29, 10:01 AM
...would it take to threaten a Level 30 character? Had a pretty cool encounter idea: three armies of kobolds, each headed by an Ancient Cataclysmic Dragon.

Each army would be it's own swarm-type monster, maybe with different stats based on what tribe the Kobolds are from? Maybe some other stuff in there, too, just in case I don't make the XP budget.

If the answer is "All of them", how many is all of them? What attacks do I give to thousands upon thousands of kobolds? What are some other cool things I could do with this fight to make it interesting?

This is sort of going to be the "intro-fight" for the final dungeon of my campaign, so I wanna leave my players with a "Woah...are we sure we're ready for this?" feel.

Oh! Another idea I had was, after the kobolds are all slain, it summons Kurtulmak, who would be the next encounter. Designing him will be fun! Any ideas there?

Cartigan
2011-03-29, 10:03 AM
Infinite low level Kobolds will only threaten a level 30 character because they have to roll 20s. Unless the character has a way to negate criticals, then they won't be a threat at all.

If you SCALE the Kobolds, then they could be a threat.

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-29, 10:06 AM
If you SCALE the Kobolds, then they could be a threat.

I'd like to think that's what creating a Swarm-type monster does. For instance, one Rot-Scarab isn't a threat, and a peasant could probably just kill it with a boot. More than twenty of the things, though, and you have to call in a PC or two to take care of it for you.

EDIT: Just read my OP. Nowhere in there do I say, "I intend on making them swarms".

I must have just come off as a guy who wants to throw 2000 individual Level 3- monsters at an epic tier party. Ew... No one wants to be that guy.

tcrudisi
2011-03-29, 10:07 AM
One.

They are an optional PC race out of the Monster Manual. Make a PC that's level 30 and then, bam!, you have yourself a challenge for a level 30 character. Make two and you'll likely overwhelm him.

Grogmir
2011-03-29, 10:18 AM
It could work,

If you cut down the rolling to just every 20th hits, The biggest problem is it would be an individual action to 'kill' each Kobold.

I think I would prefer to use Gargantuan Swarms; Abstract it. Then describe each HP as one Kobold being put to death.

Say 20 'swarms' each with 200 HP / Kobolds, is equvilent of 4000 Kobolds. Should give the desired effect.

EDIT NINJA'd by the OP. Swarms are the way to go.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-29, 10:29 AM
Infinite low level Kobolds will only threaten a level 30 character because they have to roll 20s. Unless the character has a way to negate criticals, then they won't be a threat at all.
A 20 only counts as a crit if it would hit the target's armor class; otherwise it's just a regular hit. That said, if 1000 kobold archers attack a character, then 50 of them will hit each round, and that damage should be enough to drop anyone. That said, any power that gives e.g. resist/10/all would pretty much eliminate the threat.

Anyway, yeah, swarms would work better. I'm not sure how you imagine an army of kobolds fitting in a 4x4 area, though. Do note that any decent controller eats swarms for breakfast.

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-29, 10:58 AM
One.

They are an optional PC race out of the Monster Manual. Make a PC that's level 30 and then, bam!, you have yourself a challenge for a level 30 character. Make two and you'll likely overwhelm him.

That's the idea for Kurt! ...Kinda! His idea is more a 31 Solo Skirmisher.

4000 Kobolds per swarm, eh? 3 Armies, one each for the Blizzard, Earthquake, and Volcanic Wyrms, and that's 12,000 Kobolds! Cool! Now, when you put 12,000 Kobolds together, what are they capable of?

EDIT: TOTALLY misread your logistics! Okay, 20 swarms, let's make it 30, 10 per dragon. 200 HP each. That's a good number. 600 Kobolds? That could be a movie!

Ideas for abilities? Spears and javelins will get boring after awhile. Maybe they're all Dragonwrought?

Cartigan
2011-03-29, 10:59 AM
That's the idea for Kurt! ...Kinda! His idea is more a 31 Solo Skirmisher.

4000 Kobolds per swarm, eh? 3 Armies, one each for the Blizzard, Earthquake, and Volcanic Wyrms, and that's 12,000 Kobolds! Cool! Now, when you put 12,000 Kobolds together, what are they capable of?
Making a bloody mess on the godslayer's armor?

evirus
2011-03-29, 11:01 AM
4000 Kobolds per swarm, eh? 3 Armies, one each for the Blizzard, Earthquake, and Volcanic Wyrms, and that's 12,000 Kobolds! Cool! Now, when you put 12,000 Kobolds together, what are they capable of?

Capable of making you broke as you buy figs...

In Secrets of the Undead they have zombie swarms of high level, maybe you should be looking at that as a guide of how to "up level" your swarms. Also, consider adding a skill chalenge in there to have 2 armies fight against each other or bypass an army.

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-29, 02:21 PM
Okay! I began to stat this encounter out today!

The XP budget for a Level 30 Encounter is 76,000. The three Ancient Cata Dragons put together is 34400, leaving 41,600 XP worth of kobolds.

Soooo now I'm playing with the idea of each kobold being represented by 1 XP.

Anyway, I split that into 3 armies, which equals out to these armies being level 28 monsters, probably Brutes with 250 HP each. If I do HP, then each kobold would be represented by 2 HP.

Now, I had another idea. If the PCs deal 50+ damage with one attack, it splits the army. They can reform by using a move action, but I thought it would be an interesting mechaninc.

If you split the XP in half, each army, when "cut", becomes a Level 25 Brute, cut it again and you have Level 21s. I'll make 3 different stat blocks. A Kobold Army, Corps, and then Battalion. Er, I'll double check those, probably more accurate names.

Doing this with HP gives you 125 HP, which is a Paragon Tier monster. Since I still want these monsters to be somewhat threatening, I don't think I'll be doing that.

Alrighty, what do we think of the splitting idea? I realize this encounter isn't especially difficult, but it does have a sort of epic feel to it.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-03-29, 04:01 PM
An army battle is a fun idea, but I don't think you want to bother with "splitting swarms" since - aside from the awkward mechanics - real armies don't work that way.

Better, IMHO, to design each army with Legion-sized units with different capabilities. Each Swarm should either be Huge or Gargantuan.
So your Base Legion (100 Kobolds) is a Soldier Swarm with an Aura that deals auto-damage and has a Basic Melee that Marks. Give them a weak basic ranged (javelins, slings) which makes them threatening even when they're not engaged.

Then add in Cavalry Units (mounted Kobolds) that are Skirmisher Swarms. Give them a "ride-by attack" and an Aura that helps them escape (performs a free basic attack that, if it hits, lets the Cavalry shift 3 squares). These guys will try to sweep over the PCs while they're engaged with Base Legions.

Next, make a bunch of Slinger Legions (100 Kobolds) that are Artillery Swarms. Their basic attack is a Barrage that is a sizeable Area attack (2 within 10? More?) that does damage and drops a status effect. Make sure the Area targets Creatures, not Enemies. Also, give then an Aura that Pushes.

Finally you can have Shock Troops which are smaller Brute Swarms (merely Huge) that are lead by Kobold Heroes (Epic Leaders). These guys are the elites of the Kobold Army and are supposed to spearhead the attack.
This should make for a more dynamic battle and one which feels like you're fighting an army instead of a bunch of bugs.

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-30, 01:20 AM
New idea for the splitter mechanic! See the Berbalang! I know it's meant for a Solo back in Epic tier, but it's got a really good setup for powers, and works well for my Kobold Legions.

EDIT: Love the idea of different types of Legions coming from a Base Army, Oracle! Your genius continues!

trehek
2011-03-30, 09:25 AM
The kobolds themselves would be useless against level 30, but their sheer number is what counts here, right?

Once I was able to make a really fun and memorable goblin encounter in 3.5 against a huge tribe of goblins, their chieftain and some dragons. I used a pack of normal respawning goblins running around the battlefield and doing some minor harassment to simulate the tribe, but the big annoyance came from the chieftain. For him I used a tribal chieftain prestige class (don't remember where it was from. doesn't matter anyway), which gave him a power: Whenever he was about to take a hit, an adjacent tribal goblin could jump in-between and take the hit instead. Of course, this was accompanied by appropriate screams of "BOOOOOSSSSSS!!!!". They managed to do some good damage and annoy the hell out of the PCs before they understood what was going on and the fighter readied his melee flurry for the moment when the wizard's fireball had cleared the chieftain's surroundings momentarily.

So here's what I suggest. Simulate your kobold tribes as a few uniquely created swarm monsters which are relatively harmless by themselves but deal some swarm damage every turn, have huge HP and are able to protect an adjacent boss monster using interrupts or even free actions. Since thousands of kobolds can't fit the battlegrid (and a swarm monster, even), also create an environmental effect which somehow hinders the battle as well as respawns any dead kobold swarm until the tribe chief is dead (at which point the surviving kobolds might scatter). Finally, choose or create appropriate and annoying chieftains to lead the hordes. Use plenty of flavor whenever a kobold makes an attack or uses a power. In my opinion, the setting of fighting thousands of kobolds is supposed to be hilarious (as well as epic), so don't hold back on the fun factor.

Combine this with Oracles idea for different kinds of swarms and you've got something memorable going.

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-30, 12:07 PM
So here's what I suggest. Simulate your kobold tribes as a few uniquely created swarm monsters which are relatively harmless by themselves but deal some swarm damage every turn, have huge HP and are able to protect an adjacent boss monster using interrupts or even free actions. Since thousands of kobolds can't fit the battlegrid (and a swarm monster, even), also create an environmental effect which somehow hinders the battle as well as respawns any dead kobold swarm until the tribe chief is dead (at which point the surviving kobolds might scatter). Finally, choose or create appropriate and annoying chieftains to lead the hordes. Use plenty of flavor whenever a kobold makes an attack or uses a power. In my opinion, the setting of fighting thousands of kobolds is supposed to be hilarious (as well as epic), so don't hold back on the fun factor.


The chieftains are going to be the dragons, and I'm working on fluff depending on tribe, like the Volcanic Dragon's kobolds are going to be wielding hot pokers of some kind. I love the idea of the tribes intercepting attacks, that goes in here for sure!

And yeah! This is meant to be fun, I'm glad you got that. :smallbiggrin: Thanks for the advice!

evirus
2011-03-30, 12:16 PM
The chieftains are going to be the dragons, and I'm working on fluff depending on tribe, like the Volcanic Dragon's kobolds are going to be wielding hot pokers of some kind. I love the idea of the tribes intercepting attacks, that goes in here for sure!

And yeah! This is meant to be fun, I'm glad you got that. :smallbiggrin: Thanks for the advice!

If you are going to make the swarms intercept attacks make sure you have a mechanic in place for the PC's to be able to circumvent that occasionally (say a hard intimidate check to clear the way or something) otherwise the entire swarm is temp hp for the leader.

Also, what about the idea of the army tied to a dragon breaks and flees once their leader is killed? That way you don't end up with multiple swarms protecting and deflecting hits for the last remaining dragon.

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-30, 12:27 PM
If you are going to make the swarms intercept attacks make sure you have a mechanic in place for the PC's to be able to circumvent that occasionally (say a hard intimidate check to clear the way or something) otherwise the entire swarm is temp hp for the leader.

Also, what about the idea of the army tied to a dragon breaks and flees once their leader is killed? That way you don't end up with multiple swarms protecting and deflecting hits for the last remaining dragon.

Those ideas make perfect sense as well. Damn you guys are good!

And yeah, the Kobold Army will be able to share squares with enemies and allies, so they'd have to be in the same square as their dragon to intercept an attack.

Making it an Immediate Interrupt seems like a good way to do this. That way the Army can only block one attack/round.

evirus
2011-03-30, 12:35 PM
Making it an Immediate Interrupt seems like a good way to do this. That way the Army can only block one attack/round.

Although mechcnically this will limit it, I like the idea of the players being more involved. Alternatively, instead of taking the whole hit you if the leader and swarm are in the same space you can apply resistance all to the leader. This might make a fun mechanic of the PC's trying to separate the leader from his horde.

You can hint the effect to the players with something like "20 kobolds leap up and take the brunt of the fireblast and the leader is only slightly singed"...

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-30, 02:43 PM
Although mechcnically this will limit it, I like the idea of the players being more involved. Alternatively, instead of taking the whole hit you if the leader and swarm are in the same space you can apply resistance all to the leader. This might make a fun mechanic of the PC's trying to separate the leader from his horde.

You can hint the effect to the players with something like "20 kobolds leap up and take the brunt of the fireblast and the leader is only slightly singed"...

I like that way better! And it'd be in the statblock as something like

"For Our Beloved MasterWe love you!: Any dragon sharing the Kobold Legion/Army/Platoon's space gains resist 20 to all damage."

Is that sorta what you had in mind?

Meta
2011-03-30, 03:16 PM
I like that way better! And it'd be in the statblock as something like

"For Our Beloved MasterWe love you!: Any dragon sharing the Kobold Legion/Army/Platoon's space gains resist 20 to all damage."

Is that sorta what you had in mind?

Maybe make it like squeezing though. Combat advantage for being all clumped together. Also, come to Farrell, we're going to dinner

evirus
2011-03-30, 03:35 PM
I like that way better! And it'd be in the statblock as something like

"For Our Beloved MasterWe love you!: Any dragon sharing the Kobold Legion/Army/Platoon's space gains resist 20 to all damage."

Is that sorta what you had in mind?

Almost exactly something like that. However each army "keyed" to a specific dragon, that way a dragon being kept from his army doesn't simply join another dragon's army on the field just to gain the benefit and the players "loosing" all that work it took to split them.


Also, come to Farrell, we're going to dinner

Who's Farrell and when?:smalltongue:

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-30, 04:15 PM
Almost exactly something like that. However each army "keyed" to a specific dragon, that way a dragon being kept from his army doesn't simply join another dragon's army on the field just to gain the benefit and the players "loosing" all that work it took to split them.



Who's Farrell and when?:smalltongue:

Awesome dude! I think my player's are going to love this!

And Farrell is Meta's residence hall. I live across the parking lot from him, and we have a long-standing tradition of eating dinner together stretching back from my freshmen year, haha.

EDIT: Unfortunately, I just got back from dinner, needed to work on some stuff for my voice lesson. Shame you missed it! The Tiny Tacos were amazing! :smalltongue:

But anyway, these Kobolds stand to be my best homebrewed monster yet! Thanks guys! Any other ideas would be wicked.

trehek
2011-03-31, 07:25 AM
Haha, last night I was reminded of this thread and the earlier mention to Kurtulmak reminded me of the Kobolds Ate My Baby RPG. in KAMB kobolds always had to act according to their god's will (regardless of odds for success) or they might have to make a roll in a table called "Kobold Horrible Death". One thing the kobold god hated was cowardice.

So I just thought it could be both cool and hilarious if the kobold stragglers would have to face some kind of "Kobold Horrible Death" effect after their chieftain dies and they decide to run for it. :smallbiggrin:

This might not necessarily spell their death, though it might. Maybe Kurtulmak appears, maybe it's something else. Maybe it's something the PCs will have to face, but probably not. :smallwink:

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-31, 10:00 AM
Haha, Kurt's encounter will be cool. Have a lot of neat ideas. Designing my own Epic Tier traps is always fun. It'll have stages, like a boss fight in a video game.

Fight until he loses a surge of HP, retreat behind trap. Repeat 4 times. Oh, and I'm thinking about stringing along some monsters for him to fight alongside. Namely, Abberrant monsters. I want an excuse to use this one ghost-beholder and it's shell from Dragon.

Oh, and some of the new Swordwings from the Underdark sourcebook!

evirus
2011-03-31, 10:05 AM
This might not necessarily spell their death, though it might. Maybe Kurtulmak appears, maybe it's something else. Maybe it's something the PCs will have to face, but probably not. :smallwink:

Hillarious!

I like the Idea of him appearing and eating the last remaining army for failing to keep the last dragon alive.

Also, it's a good mechanic for a short rest. The PCs rest and watch Kurtulmak eating the feeling Kobolds in the distance.



Haha, Kurt's encounter will be cool. Have a lot of neat ideas. Designing my own Epic Tier traps is always fun. It'll have stages, like a boss fight in a video game.


If you want bosses in stages you -must- read this:

http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/

Probably the best set of house rules for solo bosses I have read on line.

(for those too lazy to read the whole article here is the pdf of the final monster:
http://angrydm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/bloodknuckles.pdf )

DragonBaneDM
2011-03-31, 12:32 PM
FREAKING AWESOME!!!

Oh wow. Oh wow I'm trying this. E, you might have just changed how I do boss monsters forever!

evirus
2011-03-31, 12:36 PM
FREAKING AWESOME!!!

Oh wow. Oh wow I'm trying this. E, you might have just changed how I do boss monsters forever!

It changed how I ran boss monsters for sure. However it doesn't mean you need to replace regular Solo's... just not use them alone.

Also, when you throw this at your group for the first time make sure they know something special is going on even if they don't know what. You want to surprise them, but not completely blindside them.


Also, about your dragon fight. I was wondering how you would deal with the fact that your dragons can fly and your armies can't. Will you have the dragons fly around until bloodied and then land to gain the "resist all" or have another mechanic setup?

stabbitty death
2011-04-03, 05:17 PM
Can't wait to see how it turns out.

BobTheDog
2011-04-04, 06:30 PM
It changed how I ran boss monsters for sure. However it doesn't mean you need to replace regular Solo's... just not use them alone.

Also, when you throw this at your group for the first time make sure they know something special is going on even if they don't know what. You want to surprise them, but not completely blindside them.


Also, about your dragon fight. I was wondering how you would deal with the fact that your dragons can fly and your armies can't. Will you have the dragons fly around until bloodied and then land to gain the "resist all" or have another mechanic setup?

One word: Flying kobolds. :smalleek:

evirus
2011-04-04, 06:59 PM
DragonBaneDM, I'm curious how it's working out. Can you post what your dragon swarms look like at this point?

Sacrieur
2011-04-04, 07:00 PM
1, and his name is Pun-Pun. (can you even make pun-pun in 4e?)

LOTRfan
2011-04-04, 07:24 PM
1, and his name is Pun-Pun. (can you even make pun-pun in 4e?)

I do not think so.

mobdrazhar
2011-04-04, 07:31 PM
DragonBaneDM, I'm curious how it's working out. Can you post what your dragon swarms look like at this point?

would definately love an update on how it's going. Seeing how your swarms turn out may push me to doing this for the upcoming siege that i'll be running

ryu
2011-04-04, 08:15 PM
One possible huge flaw would be if anyone in the party had ridiculous aoe spells. There are like five or six easily obtained in epic levels that are essentially: Okay how many miles of kobald did I just kill? I believe one was called death from above... The damage isn't amazing by epic standards but it has that whole screw everything within a few square miles of me effect going on.

DragonBaneDM
2011-04-04, 08:41 PM
Okay, my NEW idea was to make each Jobold a specific type of monster. Oh wow. Jobold. Go iPad! I'm soooo leaving that.

Anywho, each Kobold Army will be different! Soldier for the CragWings. Skirmisher for RimeClaws. Brute for CoreMaws. Oh! Named the tribes by the way!

Studied how the Cata dragon works, and I figure some type of boon when their commander's aura "ripens", like a boon, or an extra attack!

Oh, and flying kobolds are a must. Be they winged or mounted upon Stirges and Pseudodragons, each Army will be a 4x4 CUBE of kobolds.

Thoughts on these new ideas, gents? Oh, and ladies. Musn't forget...um...Dust? Think Dust is a girl.

EDIT: Ryu, good concerns, but I'm in the clear here. The wizard will do well, perhaps even carry the group, which will be a nice change for a Wandizard! The Barbarian, Warlord, and Paladin should for the most part be...not ineffective, but challenged.

EDIT 2: Yup. Dust is a girl. Just checked.