Help, light armor cleric, core rules only

[Der Golem]

So, I'm starting a level 3 character, and want to do a Fharlaghn cleric, using core rules only. (Most of the crew, including the DM, are sort of new to d&d).

I'd like to impose some limitations on my character, to challenge myself, such as preferably wearing light armor, and using a quarterstaff (Fharlaghns favored weapon) or a rapier and buckler. I'm picking Luck and Travel as my domains. I like the idea of him carrying little around, being light on his travels, and cherishing his freedom of movement more than the protection plate armor provides, trusting his luck to take care of him instead. I'm having problems translating a light armored cleric into a playable character. Spells will mostly go to healing, as I am the only healer in a party of 5 or 6, except for a bard.

I'm thinking of taking my first level as a rogue, for fluff and to get some traveller type skills (climb, swim, balance, and most importantly tumble) to make the most of my wearing light armor. Also, fancy the sneak attack, which could be useful when TWFing with the staff. Tumble, and increased land speed (Longstrider, level 1 travel domain spell) will make it easy to manouver into position. I'll probably invest some of my gold in Shillelagh oil, to make the staff better. If I go rogue, then Human is the only race option really. The problem with this build is the obscenely low attack bonus, BaB of +1 at level 3, and if I opt to TWF, this drops to -1/-1. Shillelagh would bring the total aB up to zero, str might add one or two if I'm lucky, since wisdom and dex, and even con is more of a priority. I should not be fighting without flanking, basically.

I know the rogue level comes at the expense of BaB and a caster level. My alternate build would be an elf, using a longbow, and a rapier and buckler when I have to get close, and only taking Cleric levels. Would suck considerably more at close combat, so I'd probably have to take archer type feats to be of any use in combat (not opposed to this at all though) Would probably get only 1 or 2 skill points per level, (I'm thinking intelligence would be a dump stat) which is unfortunate. Also, with this build, I can't really see any benefit to not wearing heavy armor.

Remember, core only, level 3, no prestige classes. Just tips as to which build would be better, and suggestions for combat techniques/feat builds.

[Keld Denar]

I'd suggest against TWFing with the staff. You are better off holding it like a club and swinging it 2handed for 1.5x +str and 2:1 PA. You'll get a much better return. I'd also avoid the rogue. Eventually the higher level spells will make up for the loss of some skills. Why do you need to climb or balance when you can Air Walk or Fly? Etc.

[Sacrieur]

I'd suggest against TWFing with the staff. You are better off holding it like a club and swinging it 2handed for 1.5x +str and 2:1 PA. You'll get a much better return. I'd also avoid the rogue. Eventually the higher level spells will make up for the loss of some skills. Why do you need to climb or balance when you can Air Walk or Fly? Etc.

We need a large banner that goes across the screen that says something like this:
DON'T LOSE CASTER LEVELS

[Firechanter]

Reminds me of one of my favourite characters, a Stealthy Cleric that I'm playing in a fairly low-magic game (lots of spells nerfed / banned -- for example no Invisibility, no Fly, etc). Pretty straightforward core-mostly build (he does have Zen Archery), I multiclassed him into Ranger for the weapon profs, BAB and especially skills. Theoretically TWF as well but in fact I usually go SNB.
I've consciously planned him as Cleric 16 / Ranger 4, and yes giving up 9th level spells was also a conscious decision -- I figured he'd be right powerful enough without them (and due to the houserules there were hardly any good level 9 cleric spells left anyway). ATM he's level 18, Clr 16 / Rgr 2 and doing very fine. All that on top of a houserule that puts the kibosh on metamagic feats, so not even Extend Spell!
His basic DPR is nothing to write home about, but for short term boss fights he can always kick in Divine Overdrive Mode (Divine Power, Divine Favour) and go native. Apart from those, I prep almost only long-term buffs and a bunch of Full Heals.
Best of all however is that with some basic H/MS improving gear and his Ranger ranks, he's _very_ stealthy, oh and he can also Tumble really well. He wears chain shirt and large wooden shield so the ACP is neglible. Oh and he's also good at tripping and knocking down stuff, and his AC is very high, good enough for tanking. A rogue's favourite teammate.

Initial stats included Wis 16 and Int 14. Dumping Int was out of the question or I wouldn't have had the skill points to pull off my shtick.

[MeeposFire]

Its really too bad you cannot play a cloistered cleric from the SRD. It would give you more skill points that you could use on more skills. In addition it only gives you light armor so it would totally fit (it also gives you the knowledge domain for free).

[dextercorvia]

Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Ask everyone in the party to pitch in on a couple. Now you can use your spell slots for fun stuff.

I played a (Cloistered) Cleric of Flarahangash once, who preferred not to fight. (I didn't take any dumb vows or anything.) At low levels he used command, sanctuary, calm emotions, and diplomacy. As we hit level 5, Fly really paid off. We were on an Airship that was malfunctioning, so that let him save a crew member as the ship lurched. Shatter is fun. "I won't fight you, and now you have no pointy bits to hit me with." Entropic Shield is good as usually you will be standing out of Melee range, but this way, you can avoid pot shots. Locate Object used creatively can save your bacon (and time) in a lot of lower level quests.

Handy Haversack is a must have.

[Firechanter]

Cloistered Cleric is not SRD, but Unearthed Arcana. Also, it gives you d6 HD and poor BAB. I'm not so sure if that's what the OP had in mind.

[dextercorvia]

Cloistered Cleric is not SRD, but Unearthed Arcana. Also, it gives you d6 HD and poor BAB. I'm not so sure if that's what the OP had in mind.

It is OGL and thus available on many of the finer online SRD's. It was awesome for my guy, since I had decided he would never so much as swing a stick.

[Leon]

2 Levels of Ranger will mesh well with the Traveler feel and give a slight boost to TWF with the staff as well as some nice skills.


We need a large banner that goes across the screen that says something like this:
DON'T LOSE CASTER LEVELS

No you don't - the greater population of the board just gets hung up on it. Caster levels are nice but they are not the be all and end all of a Character.

[MeeposFire]

Cloistered Cleric is not SRD, but Unearthed Arcana. Also, it gives you d6 HD and poor BAB. I'm not so sure if that's what the OP had in mind.

Well it is in this SRD

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric

Like I said, it may not be allowed but it would fit well especially since it adds in lore which sort of is like traveling stories and experience.

[Firechanter]

I know UA are often published along with the SRD because the license allows it; still the supplements rules are not _part_ of _the_ SRD as such. A minor technicality, but may be relevant for groups who want to play "core only".

[Sacrieur]

No you don't - the greater population of the board just gets hung up on it. Caster levels are nice but they are not the be all and end all of a Character.

OH SNAP! You caught me D=. I thought he was optimizing.

[Sillycomic]

I like the idea of using the staff two handed. It will serve your purposes better, plus with a level of rogue so long as you flank you'll be dealing almost the same amount of damage as a greatsword. (1d6 +1.5 str + 1d6 SA)

Light armor isn't a problem, just get some helpful spells such as Magic Vestment and Shield of Faith. Grab mithral armor as soon as you can and you should be all right as far as AC is concerned. You won't be a tank, but then again you aren't going for that... so it's no big deal.

Dex is no longer a dump stat, so the build becomes a little more MAD than normal, but if you use some spells to boost your attack, such as bull's strength, Divine favor, and you use oil of shillelagh you should be doing some decent amount of damage.

Heck, Strength can almost become a dump stat for this build. You only need a 12 or so to be viable. Anything else is just gravy.

This is a pretty decent build.

[erikun]

If you are going Human anyways, why not the Able Learner feat? Not spending the cross-class penality on skill points would allow you to focus on the skills you want, and even a single level of rogue allows you to take full skill ranks in all rogue skills.

Cloistered Cleric (from the SRD) has more skill points than the regular cleric, but a worse BAB.

The Zen Archery feat allows you to use WIS for attack rolls on ranged weapons; it is very handy if you want a cleric who still wants a good chance to hit.

You will probably want to focus on buff spells, perhaps even moreso than a standard melee cleric. Bless grants you (and all allies) a +1 to attack, Divine Favor grants another +1, and Protection from Evil gives a +2 AC. You don't really have enough spells to branch out into debuffing, and you certainly won't have enough to be a dedicated buffer/healer. Remember to portion your buffs so that they last the whole day, rather than being highly buffed up for one fight and nearly worthless for the rest.

I'm not familiar enough with rogue/sneak attack strategies to suggest good feats or equipment.

[Cartigan]

If you are looking for "Core Only" advice, you already failed by posting here.

Eventually the topic MIGHT turn to core only suggestions, but by then it will also be off the rails.

In fact, if you are actively not optimizing, I'm not really sure what you want.
If you want a build that is fun to you, why are you asking us? Build a build that is fun to you. Problem solved.

[Thurbane]

We need a large banner that goes across the screen that says something like this:
DON'T LOSE CASTER LEVELS
I'm going to go against the grain here...if losing caster levels helps better realize a character concept, then I say go for it.

This holy taboo of never losing caster levels is only really applicable in fairly high-op games. In regular-op or low-op, a caster can afford to lose quite a few levels before he drops in usefulness below a non-caster.

We constantly see threads about how uber full casters are...surely losing some caster levels will only hurt them in relation to other full casters?

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To the OP - a lightly armored cleric is viable, even in core. At the end of the day, we're talking about 4 AC places (between chain shirt and full plate). At mid to higher levels, AC becomes increasingly irrelevant - not to mention that more and more of your AC starts to come from sources other than actual armor (mainly natural AC & deflection). Shields can be animated, or you can use bucklers and still fight two-handed.

In fact, I personally think that unless you plan to spend a lot of resources on tanking, +4 AC isn't worth losing 1/3 of your speed (assuming a Human character here).

[Firechanter]

If he manages to start with decent Dex, the difference between Light and Heavy armour is not 4 places but 1. Maybe not at low levels but later on for sure.
When leveling my aforementioned Ranger/Cleric, I wore heavy armour through lower levels to survive (and played as a "regular cleric"), then when all the numbers came together (i.e. I got +6 Dex gear) I switched to chain.

Mithral Breastplate counts as Light armour and takes a total of Dex 20 to get the most out of it, whereas a Mithral Fullplate counts as Medium and best supports Dex 16. If Mithral is not available in the setting, the best Light armour also just needs Dex 18. Keep in mind you can get up to +6 Dex from standard items.

[Feytalist]

I've actually made this exact character type once. It plays... interestingly.

I took Ranger 3 (mostly for feel, but also for Endurance, which I feel is a good feat for this character, but not enough to waste a feat on). Rest Cleric of Fharlaghn (Travel and Protection domains). Simple leather armour, as he can boost his own AC with various spells etc. Quarterstaff of course, and here's the kicker: Heavy Crossbow. (:smallbiggrin:). Took Zen Archery of course, Rapid Reload, and some other standard ranged feats.

Party role was mostly buffer/ranged support, but he also made quite a good "Survivalist", especially since I shoehorned in Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (geography) and Survival as class skills.

This was by no means an optimized character, just an alternative to the usual mace-swinging, full plate mailed cleric.

[Der Golem]

I decided on going with one level of Monk, and going all out unarmored. I had no concrete backstory, only an archetype, but now he is pretty well fleshed out. His first 20-something years were spent in a monastery, dedicating himself to the strict training and lawful lifestyle of the monk, knowing no other life. As soon as he set out into the real world and realized he had seen so little of it, he became fascinated with traveling for the sake of it. Soon abandoned his monk lifestyle in favor of worship of Fharlaghn. For him the open road, and endless possibilities that it offers are also metaphors for personal freedom, something he values above most else, since he has, for the larger part of his life, had almost none. So I'm playing him Neutral, and thinking about never touching enchantment spells, as they oppose his spiritual beliefs.

In game terms this means free TWF with the quarterstaff and Improved grapple, bonus to all saves, and wisdom to armour, allowing me to take the character concept even further, unarmored cleric. Combined with mage armor, this means almost tankable AC. Less skills than rogue or ranger, more than pure cleric. Really excited to play this.

Thanks for the input guys. Enjoyed reading it, although "build a build you will enjoy playing" is the only thing I decided to follow.