Beef up a Fleshraker Animal Companion

[isotunknown]

. . . not that they need much beefing. Nonetheless, with an eye toward optimization, I am wondering if there is a way to get a fleshraker animal companion to be treated has attacking with a two-handed weapon. My goal is to take advantage of the damage output a two-handed weapon has with Power Attack and Leap Attack.

To start fleshraker has claw, claw, bite, tail, and Rake (with a leaping pounce, which should overlap with the Leap Attack, i.e., you should get to do both in the same attack as I read it). So there's not an obvious two-handed weapon attack (unless you could argue that the rake is 2-handed, but that's not clear to me), so I'm wondering if there's a way to turn one of those claw attacks into a two-handed weapon.

I'd appreciate any ideas people have.

[MammonAzrael]

As far as I am aware, no, there are no ways to have a single-handed weapon count as a two-handed weapon.

And rake is not a two-handed attack, it is an attack with two hands, each of which are separate weapons.

Frankly, if the fleshraker isn't doing enough for you in your game, then nothing will, since it is one of the most powerful animal companions you can get.

[ShriekingDrake]

I believe that MammonAzrael is correct; I'm just not aware of a way to do what you want to do. Granted, I think there's nothing wrong with trying to optimize, even if fleshrakers are already great, so I applaud your effort. (It really does depend on the kind of game you play.)

I suppose there might be a weapon enhancement ability that would let you treat a one-handed weapon as a two-handed one, but I'm not aware of one or how you would migrate that weapon enhancement (absent homebrewing) to a natural weapon.

[Keld Denar]

Natural Weapons are always 1:1 PA, regardless of their position as primary or secondary. This is actually a boon, given the large number of natural attacks you can get. Natural attacks have no iterative progression, so as long as your secondary attacks have a decent chance of hitting (which Multiattack helps with), you can generally PA for larger amounts with natural attacks and still hit. Unlike TWFing, where your offhand is often light and thus doesn't get bonus PA damage, secondary natural weapons always get full damage.

If you contrast a fighter with say...3 attacks at 2:1 PA vs a fleshraker with 6 natural attacks at 1:1, and consider that the dino probably has a better all around chance to hit with his later hits than the fighter does, you can see how it is still a good idea to PA for a bit. Especially when you factor in Leap Attack. Sure, you won't get a 4:1 return, but you'll get a 2:1 return on 6 attacks which really can add up.

[TroubleBrewing]

Druid spell "Venomfire" out of Serpent Kingdoms. Cast it on your Fleshraker and laugh while the DM cries.

[ShriekingDrake]

. . . a fleshraker with 6 natural attacks at 1:1 . . . .

I counted only 5 natural attacks in isotunknown's description (maybe he's mistaken), where were you getting 6? It's also worth noting that you'll never get all the attacks (at least on the same creature) as the bite and tail can't both hit the same target as part of the full-attack, IIRC.

[Keld Denar]

Aren't there 2 rakes? I could have sworn there were 2 rake attacks.

[MammonAzrael]

Aren't there 2 rakes? I could have sworn there were 2 rake attacks.

Sorry, only one rake attack.

[Keld Denar]

Ah, you must have to be large or something to get the 2nd rake, like you have to be large to get a 2nd slam (assuming you are humanoid). Dire Lions get 2 rakes, I just figured it came as a pair.

Still, 5 attacks is a lot, especially with very little penalty to hit due to the Multiattack feat (or no penalty to hit with Imp Multiattack). That alone makes PA very tempting even without the delicious multipliers.

[Malevolence]

Magebred Warbeast. Still not good enough? Start casting buffs. Divine Favor (via magic item), Bite of line, Enrage Animal, Animal Growth...

[ShriekingDrake]

Ah, you must have to be large or something to get the 2nd rake, like you have to be large to get a 2nd slam (assuming you are humanoid). Dire Lions get 2 rakes, I just figured it came as a pair.

Still, 5 attacks is a lot, especially with very little penalty to hit due to the Multiattack feat (or no penalty to hit with Imp Multiattack). That alone makes PA very tempting even without the delicious multipliers.

+1 to that.

But now you have me wondering if whether if you enlarge your fleshraker whether there's a rule that it would get a second rake. That's probably a little too much to ask for.

@isotunknown (did I just figure out that isot="In Search of the"--if so, that's clever) So, in the end, you get lots of spank from your fleshy, but I don't think there's a way to make their attacks two-handed.

[MammonAzrael]

If you really feel the need to improve it more, talk your DM into letting you apply the Monster of Legend template to it. Page 213 of MM II, the template is pretty strong.

[Coidzor]

. . . not that they need much beefing. Nonetheless, with an eye toward optimization, I am wondering if there is a way to get a fleshraker animal companion to be treated has attacking with a two-handed weapon. My goal is to take advantage of the damage output a two-handed weapon has with Power Attack and Leap Attack.

To start fleshraker has claw, claw, bite, tail, and Rake (with a leaping pounce, which should overlap with the Leap Attack, i.e., you should get to do both in the same attack as I read it). So there's not an obvious two-handed weapon attack (unless you could argue that the rake is 2-handed, but that's not clear to me), so I'm wondering if there's a way to turn one of those claw attacks into a two-handed weapon.

I'd appreciate any ideas people have.

Well, if you're willing to give up the bite in exchange for some iteratives, there's a +1 weapon property from Lords of Madness that's right up your alley. Treats it as being wielded as it would normally, so a two-handed weapon is wielded as if in two hands. Don't think you can get something like a longsword to be treated as if wielded in two hands, but why would you want a longsword over a greatsword or executioner's mace/axe/thing?

I believe it goes by the name of Mouthpick weapon. It's in the section on Beholders but is mentioned as being of particular interest to druids and having been adapted to the mouths of a variety of animals, but, then, it magically reforms to fit in its wielder's mouth so it's kind of to be expected.

Grants proficiency to boot.


I suppose there might be a weapon enhancement ability that would let you treat a one-handed weapon as a two-handed one, but I'm not aware of one or how you would migrate that weapon enhancement (absent homebrewing) to a natural weapon.

Well, if such a weapon property existed, there's the necklace of natural attacks from Savage Species and the amulet of mighty fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists)+Magic Item Compendium, I believe.

[MammonAzrael]

Well, if such a weapon property existed, there's the necklace of natural attacks from Savage Species and the amulet of mighty fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists)+Magic Item Compendium, I believe.

The necklace of natural attacks was actually updated to 3.5 with this web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) (see the bottom of the article).

[JonestheSpy]

Druid spell "Venomfire" out of Serpent Kingdoms. Cast it on your Fleshraker and laugh while the DM cries.

DM's who allow fleshraker companions in the first place probably spend a lot of time crying already.

[Malevolence]

DM's who allow fleshraker companions in the first place probably spend a lot of time crying already.

I think it's rather entertaining actually.

I mean, a 12 HD Magebred Fleshraker is CR 5, and Large. I'm just saying.

[Aspenor]

Natural Weapons are always 1:1 PA, regardless of their position as primary or secondary. This is actually a boon, given the large number of natural attacks you can get. Natural attacks have no iterative progression, so as long as your secondary attacks have a decent chance of hitting (which Multiattack helps with), you can generally PA for larger amounts with natural attacks and still hit. Unlike TWFing, where your offhand is often light and thus doesn't get bonus PA damage, secondary natural weapons always get full damage.

If you contrast a fighter with say...3 attacks at 2:1 PA vs a fleshraker with 6 natural attacks at 1:1, and consider that the dino probably has a better all around chance to hit with his later hits than the fighter does, you can see how it is still a good idea to PA for a bit. Especially when you factor in Leap Attack. Sure, you won't get a 4:1 return, but you'll get a 2:1 return on 6 attacks which really can add up.

FYI, Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon gives a 3:1 ratio, not 4:1.

[faceroll]

Pick up Natural Bond feat, talk your DM into letting you use full druid level for bonuses.

Mouthpicks, from draconomicon may be of interest. I think that allows bites to count as two handed armed attacks. No rules saying an animal can't be trained with exotic weapons.


Magebred Warbeast. Still not good enough? Start casting buffs. Divine Favor (via magic item), Bite of line, Enrage Animal, Animal Growth...

Warbeast, yes; magebred, no. Read the rules on animal companions and magebreeding.

[ShriekingDrake]

I think it's rather entertaining actually.

I mean, a 12 HD Magebred Fleshraker is CR 5, and Large. I'm just saying.

How are you getting the fleshraker to large size without, say, animal growth? Did I miss something?

[Keld Denar]

There is errata for leap attack. It's now a 100% increase, rather than a doubling. That means 4:1.

[Aspenor]

There is errata for leap attack. It's now a 100% increase, rather than a doubling. That means 4:1.

Check again. The errata says the second sentence should be changed to a 100% increase. The third sentence, the one talking about tripling with two-handers, was left untouched by the errata.

[Kantolin]

Isn't there a soulmeld which boosts natural attacking at a kind of power attack ratio?

If so, it probably requires the totem chakra, and that's two druid levels down, but it'd also be useful on the druid himself.

[Malevolence]

FYI, Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon gives a 3:1 ratio, not 4:1.

No, it actually is 4:1. It was errataed to be +100% instead of doubled. Which means it actually does double, instead of using the funky multiplier math for doubling.


Warbeast, yes; magebred, no. Read the rules on animal companions and magebreeding.

Have read them. ECS says no, but a later book puts out stealth errata to say yes.


How are you getting the fleshraker to large size without, say, animal growth? Did I miss something?

4 HD, CR 2, Medium. Advances 3 HD = 1 CR.

7 HD, CR 3, Medium.

10 HD, CR 4. But Fleshrakers become Large at 9 HD. And that increases CR by 1. So actually CR 5.

2 HD is less than 3, so it doesn't get another CR bump.

End result is 12 HD fully advanced, CR 5.

Magebred does not increase CR at all, which is odd given that it is +8 to physical stats, +4 NA, and an extra feat among other things. But it doesn't, so making it Magebred doesn't increase CR. Warbeast does, so you can't do that without making it CR 6.

If you add Animal Growth, say by having a few of these accompany a Druid 9 they become Huge. But that is hardly a requirement.

The point I was trying to make is that I have absolutely no problem allowing Fleshrakers, as it means I can use them too. And either the party can handle their own tricks being thrown back at them and will do fine, or they cannot and will die.

[Aspenor]

No, it actually is 4:1. It was errataed to be +100% instead of doubled. Which means it actually does double, instead of using the funky multiplier math for doubling.

Like I said before, check your errata files. It specifically states that the second sentence should be changed in that manner. It does not state that the third sentence be changed in any way at all. It doesn't say delete it, and it doesn't say to change it in any way. The third sentence is the sentence that talks about PA being tripled with a two hander rather than doubled. Therefore, using Leap Attack with a two hander still follows the original rules in CAdv since that particular sentence has never been overturned by any errata.

I'll even quote it to show you:


Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should
read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with
your jump, and you end your jump in a square from
which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the
normal bonus damage from your use of the Power
Attack feat.
Emphasis mine.

Now, check Leap Attack in CAdv and count sentences. I can't quote that one due to copyright rules since it's not in the SRD.

[LordBlades]

Emphasis mine.

Now, check Leap Attack in CAdv and count sentences. I can't quote that one due to copyright rules since it's not in the SRD.


It's quadrupled regardless. Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon 'triples the extra damage from Power Attack'. And the extra damage is already 'twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls'.

[Coidzor]

Have read them. ECS says no, but a later book puts out stealth errata to say yes.

The one with the specific examples of a magebred tiger and... one other magebred animal for rangers/druids from Breland?


4 HD, CR 2, Medium. Advances 3 HD = 1 CR.

7 HD, CR 3, Medium.

10 HD, CR 4. But Fleshrakers become Large at 9 HD. And that increases CR by 1. So actually CR 5.

2 HD is less than 3, so it doesn't get another CR bump.

End result is 12 HD fully advanced, CR 5.

Magebred does not increase CR at all, which is odd given that it is +8 to physical stats, +4 NA, and an extra feat among other things. But it doesn't, so making it Magebred doesn't increase CR. Warbeast does, so you can't do that without making it CR 6.

Warbeast would raise its CR by 2, since it'd be adding another HD to the mix, so that'd be another group of 3 HD as well as the +1 CR from Warbeast itself.

[ShriekingDrake]

Have read them. ECS says no, but a later book puts out stealth errata to say yes.
I thought I had remembered seeing this somewhere myself. Can you remember which book? Was it Five Nations? It would be great to get the cite on this thread.




4 HD, CR 2, Medium. Advances 3 HD = 1 CR.

7 HD, CR 3, Medium.

10 HD, CR 4. But Fleshrakers become Large at 9 HD. And that increases CR by 1. So actually CR 5.

2 HD is less than 3, so it doesn't get another CR bump.

End result is 12 HD fully advanced, CR 5.

Magebred does not increase CR at all, which is odd given that it is +8 to physical stats, +4 NA, and an extra feat among other things. But it doesn't, so making it Magebred doesn't increase CR. Warbeast does, so you can't do that without making it CR 6.

If you add Animal Growth, say by having a few of these accompany a Druid 9 they become Huge. But that is hardly a requirement.

The point I was trying to make is that I have absolutely no problem allowing Fleshrakers, as it means I can use them too. And either the party can handle their own tricks being thrown back at them and will do fine, or they cannot and will die.
I'm not in a spot where I can do the research right now, but I was--perhaps mistakenly--under the impression that Animal Companions do not gain size as they gain HD.

[Malevolence]

Warbeast would raise its CR by 2, since it'd be adding another HD to the mix, so that'd be another group of 3 HD as well as the +1 CR from Warbeast itself.

No, it would raise it by 1, because it says it raises it by 1.

In any case a Magebred 12 HD dino at CR 5 punches harder than a Magebred Warbeast 12 HD dino at 6, so it's still better to not Warbeast, in that instance.


I thought I had remembered seeing this somewhere myself. Can you remember which book? Was it Five Nations? It would be great to get the cite on this thread.

I believe that that was the name.


I'm not in a spot where I can do the research right now, but I was--perhaps mistakenly--under the impression that Animal Companions do not gain size as they gain HD.

Even if that were true, and it isn't I was clearly speaking from the perspective of a DM advancing enemies by CR, and not a PC using them as an animal companion. So while it is possible for a level 6 Druid with Natural Bond to have a Magebred Warbeast Large size Fleshraker with 9 HD, using the exact same thing but with 12 HD (13 after Warbeast) as an opponent is a CR 6 creature, and it's CR 5 without the Warbeast template. Which means I have no problems allowing players to use it, since I can do one better, and the party will either handle it (likely) or not.

[ShriekingDrake]

Even if that were true, and it isn't I was clearly speaking from the perspective of a DM advancing enemies by CR, and not a PC using them as an animal companion. So while it is possible for a level 6 Druid with Natural Bond to have a Magebred Warbeast Large size Fleshraker with 9 HD, using the exact same thing but with 12 HD (13 after Warbeast) as an opponent is a CR 6 creature, and it's CR 5 without the Warbeast template. Which means I have no problems allowing players to use it, since I can do one better, and the party will either handle it (likely) or not. (Bolding mine)

I think, therein, lies the difference. I believe that advancing monsters (a la the Monster Manual) is different than advancing an animal companion. IIRC, the section on animal companions in the Player's Handbook gives the details about how to advance an animal companion. I don't think it specifically says that animal companions don't increase in size, but it does give the list of benefits associated with advancing an animal companion. I suppose that because the Player's Handbook does not specifically indicate that animal companions don't increase in size, that you can make a tenable argument that they do; but it also strikes me that there are, perhaps stronger, arguments that they don't.

But, when you're talking about advancing monsters, I agree with you that it's clear that the monsters increase in size as they increase in hit dice, unless it says otherwise.

On another note, it would be useful to find the cite for that Five Nation's quote. I don't have that book, so I'll have to hunt it down from the library, unless someone can find it faster.

[Malevolence]

(Bolding mine)

I think, therein, lies the difference. I believe that advancing monsters (a la the Monster Manual) is different than advancing an animal companion. IIRC, the section on animal companions in the Player's Handbook gives the details about how to advance an animal companion. I don't think it specifically says that animal companions don't increase in size, but it does give the list of benefits associated with advancing an animal companion. I suppose that because the Player's Handbook does not specifically indicate that animal companions don't increase in size, that you can make a tenable argument that they do; but it also strikes me that there are, perhaps stronger, arguments that they don't.

The PHB is silent on the matter. It doesn't say they do, and it doesn't say they don't. So then you look at the next source - the animal statblocks. And generally there is an advancement by HD entry there. For Fleshrakers, they turn Large at 9 HD. They also top out at 12, but as it is never mentioned anywhere that this limitation applies to animal companions it doesn't. Which means a Druid's Fleshraker could obtain greater than 12 HD. Additionally, there are no restrictions, and there is no level adjustment to Warbeasting your animal companion, and this adds 1 HD with no qualifiers. Which means that a Druid's Fleshraker caps out at advancement for full level (with Natural Bond to offset the -3) + 1 HD and some additional natural armor and very minor stat boosts. And from the DM's perspective regarding a Fleshraker encounter, the maximum possible is a 13 HD Magebred Warbeast Fleshraker that is Large size and is CR 6. Though getting a 12 HD Magebred not Warbeast Large Fleshraker for CR 5 is a better deal in this context.


But, when you're talking about advancing monsters, I agree with you that it's clear that the monsters increase in size as they increase in hit dice, unless it says otherwise.

On another note, it would be useful to find the cite for that Five Nation's quote. I don't have that book, so I'll have to hunt it down from the library, unless someone can find it faster.

The quote is that Magebred animals are specifically detailed as being animal companions. This is a contradiction to the earlier claims that they cannot be animal companions.

[Keld Denar]

I think it was clarified somewhere that a druid's animal companion does not in fact increase in size due to the HD it gains by virtue of being a companion.

[Malevolence]

I think it was clarified somewhere that a druid's animal companion does not in fact increase in size due to the HD it gains by virtue of being a companion.

In Skip's house rules, or a credible ruling?

[Coidzor]

No, it would raise it by 1, because it says it raises it by 1.

In any case a Magebred 12 HD dino at CR 5 punches harder than a Magebred Warbeast 12 HD dino at 6, so it's still better to not Warbeast, in that instance.

Eh, seems an overly subtle distinction you're making which would leave you open to your players calling shenanigans on you when you attempted to punish them with such fleshrakers on the grounds that you were under CRing them.

[ShriekingDrake]

I think it was clarified somewhere that a druid's animal companion does not in fact increase in size due to the HD it gains by virtue of being a companion.

I had thought so, too. But I'm having trouble finding it. Although, it still strikes me that advancing an animal companion is different than advancing a monster and that the rules for advancing an animal companion are listed in the table in the PHb. That said, as Malevolence has suggested, there's nothing (in the PHb) that says to ignore that portion of the statblock in the description of the animal the druid has chosen and that the table merely tells you when the animal companion gets his hit dice.

[Malevolence]

Eh, seems an overly subtle distinction you're making which would leave you open to your players calling shenanigans on you when you attempted to punish them with such fleshrakers on the grounds that you were under CRing them.

Punishing? Hardly. Awesome begots awesome. The more awesome you are, the more awesome your enemies are, which makes you even more awesome when you beat them. Certainly more satisfying than beating down some crippled mooks that can barely hold their sword right.


I had thought so, too. But I'm having trouble finding it. Although, it still strikes me that advancing an animal companion is different than advancing a monster and that the rules for advancing an animal companion are listed in the table in the PHb. That said, as Malevolence has suggested, there's nothing (in the PHb) that says to ignore that portion of the statblock in the description of the animal the druid has chosen and that the table merely tells you when the animal companion gets his hit dice.

That is because aside from Skip's house rules, which are chosen on the basis of such things as "feel" rather than any solid and valid reason it does not exist.

If you want to play the RAI card take 2 level 7 Druids. Give one a Wolf animal companion, giving it the bonuses entitled to it for being a level 7 Druid AC which among other things means making it Large. Give the other a Dire Wolf animal companion, who gets no bonuses because the effective Druid level is 1. Their stats will be comparable, and the Dire Wolf pulls ahead with a Natural Bond, as it should be.

[faceroll]

Punishing? Hardly. Awesome begots awesome. The more awesome you are, the more awesome your enemies are, which makes you even more awesome when you beat them. Certainly more satisfying than beating down some crippled mooks that can barely hold their sword right.

Stormwind Fallacy.

[Tvtyrant]

Stormwind Fallacy.

I thought Stormwind was the opposite; where someone believes optimization is automatically anti-role playing.

[Malevolence]

I thought Stormwind was the opposite; where someone believes optimization is automatically anti-role playing.

Stormwind has nothing to do with it actually.

Stormwind is saying that there is not an inverse relationship between optimization and roleplaying.

Malevolence is saying that awesome PCs are rewarded for being awesome by having more awesome adventures. Conversely, incompetent characters are punished for being incompetent by only fighting other incompetents.

[Tvtyrant]

Stormwind has nothing to do with it actually.

Stormwind is saying that there is not an inverse relationship between optimization and roleplaying.

I am saying that awesome PCs are rewarded for being awesome by having more awesome adventures. Conversely, incompetent characters are punished for being incompetent by only fighting other incompetents.
Fixed that for you.

[Malevolence]

Fixed that for you.

Changing my name to I is not a fix, given that we are discussing people's points being referred to by name. Which means referring to myself in the third person is correct.

[TroubleBrewing]

Grey certainly agrees.

[Tael]

Tael believes that one should always speak in the third person!

Tael also thinks that the Errata for Leap Attack was stupid and unclear. It was plenty powerful as it was, and the new version breaks normal convention.

[ShriekingDrake]

Tael believes that one should always speak in the third person!

Tael also thinks that the Errata for Leap Attack was stupid and unclear. It was plenty powerful as it was, and the new version breaks normal convention.

We, ShriekingDrake, agree.

[isotunknown]

Wow!! A lot has happened on this thread since I've been gone. Sorry for not being able to check back sooner.

Thanks for all the help. I understand that there's just no straightforward way to get one of the fleshraker's weapons to be two-handed. Indeed they are pretty beefy already.

[ShriekingDrake]

Even if that were true, and it isn't I was clearly speaking from the perspective of a DM advancing enemies by CR, and not a PC using them as an animal companion. So while it is possible for a level 6 Druid with Natural Bond to have a Magebred Warbeast Large size Fleshraker with 9 HD, using the exact same thing but with 12 HD (13 after Warbeast) as an opponent is a CR 6 creature, and it's CR 5 without the Warbeast template. Which means I have no problems allowing players to use it, since I can do one better, and the party will either handle it (likely) or not.

I am not sure to what extent the Official WoTC FAQ located here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) decides the rules. But, for what its worth the language is unambiguous in saying, more than once, that the animal companion does not increase in size as it gains hit dice.