How to balance a game to Tier 3?

[Firechanter]

Though this is not currently urgent, since for our next game the more system-savvy players seem to be willing to restrain themselves, I'd like to know if there are some tried and proved methods to nerf the core prepped casters at least so much they can't take over the roles of entirely different classes.

I'm not going to bother with upgrading the 5th Tiers, that's what Tome of Battle is there for. In effect, I'd like all characters to be roughly on the power and utility level of Tier 3.

So. What can I do about Clerics, Druids and Wizards to make sure they don't steal the show?

[Sacrieur]

There are homebrew variants that dumb them down, like Revolver Mage.

[Amphetryon]

So. What can I do about Clerics, Druids and Wizards to make sure they don't steal the show?The usual solution posited is to use Favored Soul for Cleric, use Spirit Shaman for Druid, and use one of the list-casters (Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler) for Wizard. You'll reign in a majority of the shenanigans that way, though it's obviously still possible for any of the 'replacement' Classes (except, possibly, the Warmage) to still stomp all over an unprepared DM's campaign.

[MeeposFire]

make them more like the beguiler, warmage, and dread necromancer by restricting their spell lists (though not always that far). A warmage uses the same basic structure as a wizard (9 spell levels using spells) but is much lower on the power scale due to its spell list. Limit the spell lists so that casters cannot replace other characters so easily and so that they lack spells that are game changing (like gate). For spells like polymorph that you may want for thematic reasons you may need to do some tinkering so you can keep them but they are not so good to replace other characters.

[nyarlathotep]

Though this is not currently urgent, since for our next game the more system-savvy players seem to be willing to restrain themselves, I'd like to know if there are some tried and proved methods to nerf the core prepped casters at least so much they can't take over the roles of entirely different classes.

I'm not going to bother with upgrading the 5th Tiers, that's what Tome of Battle is there for. In effect, I'd like all characters to be roughly on the power and utility level of Tier 3.

So. What can I do about Clerics, Druids and Wizards to make sure they don't steal the show?

Ban wizard replace with shadowcaster

Ban sorcerer replace with warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer, a some homebrew to cover the missing schools (conjuration and transmutation)

Ban cleric replace with favored soul (may want some restriction based on diety to spells known)

Replace druids with wildshaping ranger

[Mr.Bookworm]

Use the tier 3 classes.


Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Variant Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Seriously, that plus a couple of variants (Divine Bard, notably) covers pretty much every character role in core D&D and a few besides. The only thing I can't see that couldn't be made easily is a dedicated blaster (maybe slap Warmage and something else together?).

[Firechanter]

Is outright banning/substuting the Big Three the only viable way to go? I'd rather not if there's a way around it.

I got a notion that one common houserule seems to be making all Clerics cloistered ones. Is that correct? I guess that's viable for larger groups where you can do without an extra tank and just need a healer/utility cleric.

As for Wizard, how about spell nerfs like: banning Time Stop, nerfing Shapechange (though I don't know how, maybe target creature's CR must not exceed class level?), restricting Gate, stuff like that. Or is there simply _too_ much that would have to be nerfed?

[Draz74]

Tier 2 classes can be turned into Tier 3 just by banning overpowered spells/powers. This includes the Cleric, who can be nerfed down to Tier 2 (and also tied more closely to his deity, flavor-wise) by just using the Spontaneous Divine Casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant.

So ban Tier 1 classes, except for the nerfed Cleric. Allow the Sorcerer and Psion but ban their game-breaking abilities (Syncronicity!). For a Druid replacement, just use a Totemist with the Wild Cohort feat.

Wizard is the tricky one. If you're ok with Wizards who don't actually cast very many spells per day, you might be able to re-fluff a Factotum as a Wizard-type. Or you can use one of the popular Truenamer fixes and call it a Wizard.


Is outright banning/substuting the Big Three the only viable way to go? I'd rather not if there's a way around it.

As for Wizard, how about spell nerfs like: banning Time Stop, nerfing Shapechange (though I don't know how, maybe target creature's CR must not exceed class level?), restricting Gate, stuff like that. Or is there simply _too_ much that would have to be nerfed?

There's no common consensus for nerfed versions of these classes that are well-liked and Tier-3, no. You're welcome to join in with the many people who have tried to make some, though.

My personal opinion is that the Wizard would need WAY too many spells nerfed to ever get him down to Tier 3.


I got a notion that one common houserule seems to be making all Clerics cloistered ones. Is that correct? I guess that's viable for larger groups where you can do without an extra tank and just need a healer/utility cleric.
Hmmm, actually I think the best generic Cleric would be somewhere in between the normal war-machine and the Cloistered guy. d6 Hit Dice, Medium BAB, and only Will as a good Save; like the Ardent. 4 Skill points. Medium armor proficiency, and proficiency with deity's favored weapon; but no heavy armor proficiency unless you get the War Domain. Definitely no automatic Knowledge domain like the Cloistered gets.

[Amphetryon]

I got a notion that one common houserule seems to be making all Clerics cloistered ones. Is that correct? I guess that's viable for larger groups where you can do without an extra tank and just need a healer/utility cleric.

Many folks will argue that Cloistered Clerics are better, not worse, than standard PHb Clerics. The extra Skills and free Knowledge Devotion, coupled with a Cleric's default spell list, means you'll often never miss the bits you allegedly lost in converting to Cloistered Cleric. Divine Power and such make the default BAB irrelevant.

[Firechanter]

Okay, there's some useful suggestions already, keep em coming.

Divine Bard: do you mean the ACF from Complete Champion, or is there something different that's called Divine Bard?

Personally I'm not so fond of classes with just a few Spells Known (which you have to select out of a larger list), but I don't mind classes with restricted lists such as the Beguiler.

Okay, nerfing down the Cleric to d6, Medium Armour and keeping Medium BAB seems like an option. Although most Clerics I've known or played go for Mithral Full Plate as soon as they can afford it anyway, so Heavy Armour is just relevant on the lower levels.
Prolly also need to disallow Persisted Divine Power for it to make any sense.

Wildhsape Ranger: so I never really bothered about it; is WSing into small or medium animals really that good?

Rogue: the Factotum is certainly a good class, but is there also a spruced-up Rogue alternative that also features meaningful Sneak Attack?

edit:
BTW, I've never bothered with Psionics and prefer to keep them out of my game; not necessarily due to power reasons but simply because I do not want to learn yet another way of magic. Same goes for other alternative magic systems such as truenaming, Warlock stuff and what have you.

[erikun]

Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard)

The big problem with Tier 1 isn't so much the broken spells - although there is that - but the fact that they can rewrite their known spell list every day. There is simply no way that a Bard, Psychic Warrior, or anyone with a fixed spell list can compete with someone capable of selecting nearly any spell written at their level to use with one day's preparation. This is why people are recommending the spontaneous casting variant for the Cleric - no amount of nerfing in armor or HP will matter when you can choose from any spell to memorize.

The Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is generally considered a very good Rogue improvement.

The Cleric can be greatly "improved" by simply removing all the self-target spells, or making them ally-only (unable to target themselves). This makes them a better buffer while removing the core of ClericZilla. Be prepared for Righteous Might Barbarians, though.

[Draz74]

Prolly also need to disallow Persisted Divine Power for it to make any sense.
Yeah, DMM: Persist can get banned as far as I'm concerned. And frankly I approve of taking Divine Power off the Cleric list, only leaving it in the game as a War Domain spell.


Rogue: the Factotum is certainly a good class, but is there also a spruced-up Rogue alternative that also features meaningful Sneak Attack?
It's called the Swordsage. :smalltongue:
Multiclass Factotum/Swordsage with Fractional BAB is a pretty excellent Rogue substitute.


edit:
BTW, I've never bothered with Psionics and prefer to keep them out of my game; not necessarily due to power reasons but simply because I do not want to learn yet another way of magic. Same goes for other alternative magic systems such as truenaming, Warlock stuff and what have you.
:smallfrown: You're missing out.

Psionics and Invocations ("warlock stuff") are much better magic systems, on the whole, than standard Vancian spellcasting. As high-quality as Tome of Battle.

Incarnum classes are fun and well-balanced. The Binder is cool and well-balanced. But if you're trying to keep your game simple, IMO you can skip these. And you can definitely skip Shadowcasting and Truenaming. But Psionics and Invocations? Worth it. Amazing.


Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard)

From Unearthed Arcana.

[JaronK]

Divine Bard: do you mean the ACF from Complete Champion, or is there something different that's called Divine Bard?

Check Unearthed Arcana. Note that the Crusader can also handle the Cleric concept.


Okay, nerfing down the Cleric to d6, Medium Armour and keeping Medium BAB seems like an option. Although most Clerics I've known or played go for Mithral Full Plate as soon as they can afford it anyway, so Heavy Armour is just relevant on the lower levels.
Prolly also need to disallow Persisted Divine Power for it to make any sense.

It's the spells that are the issue.


Wildhsape Ranger: so I never really bothered about it; is WSing into small or medium animals really that good?

It's usually combined with Master of Many Forms. But in general, it's just a better version of a Ranger, getting more general utility to work with. It's hardly amazing or anything, just a solid class.


Rogue: the Factotum is certainly a good class, but is there also a spruced-up Rogue alternative that also features meaningful Sneak Attack?

The thing is, Sneak Attack isn't that great of an ability. Too many things are immune to it, after all, and there can be difficulties countering that fact (Penetrating Strike works, but halves your damage... magic items are either expensive or require other hassles to deal with and generally only override one immunity type... etc). A Factotum can use Iaijutsu Focus like a Rogue uses Sneak Attack, and this works on everything. But throwing in some Swordsage helps if you really wanted Sneak Attack, as Assassin's Stance can help, and they have a lot of "handfuls of D6s" maneuvers.

You may want to allow Binding. I know it's a new system... but it's really fun, reasonably balanced, and just solid to play.

Also, consider having the T4s in there too, just to make sure there's plenty of variety.

JaronK

[jiriku]

I homebrew a lot of upgrades to the low-tier classes and nerfs to the high-tier classes. You might like some of them.

In general, nerfing a T1 class is hard to do because the obvious approach is to whack their class features or make their spells slow, unreliable, and/or dangerous to cast. Thing is, their power is not in their class features or the reliability, speed, or safety of their casting.

The real power of a T1 caster is:

Their "toolbox" selection of known spells that gives them a handful of relevant solutions for every imaginable situation.
The stupidly awesome effects produced by 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells that many other classes just can't match with even their best abilities.

The only way to really effectively nerf a T1 caster is to limit their known spells and avoid high-level play.

[mint]

Banning things is one way to go, sure.
Another way would be to think of hitting the tier as a group effort. If your players are already system savvy and willing to hold back you should use that instead.

[Kantolin]

Would it be plausible to have a PrC that's rated at -2, and have that allow a tier 1 class into a generally tier 3 game?

I think, for example, that the master of the unseen hand is on the -2 list. A wizard with [all five levels of] that thus technically should fit in, or more certainly a sorceror.

...right? It may be good to start to suggest people take many of the neat classes that suck due to not improving caster levels. :P

[Sacrieur]

Would it be plausible to have a PrC that's rated at -2, and have that allow a tier 1 class into a generally tier 3 game?

I think, for example, that the master of the unseen hand is on the -2 list. A wizard with [all five levels of] that thus technically should fit in, or more certainly a sorceror.

...right? It may be good to start to suggest people take many of the neat classes that suck due to not improving caster levels. :P

MotUH is tier 4. Losing caster levels always lowers a class's tier. Optimized gishes sometimes fit into tier 3, which can be done with wizards and the like.

[Kantolin]

MotUH is tier 4. Losing caster levels always lowers a class's tier.

...I knew losing caster levels (especially a lot of them) lowers a class's tier, but Wizard 15 / MotUH 5 is tier /four/?

O_o Seriously? It's... it's 15 levels of wizard. 15 levels of wizard = 20 levels of rogue? Particularly if the wizard has a neat trick and slightly higher BAB and not literally 15 levels?

Either way, then, that makes it even more of an acceptable idea then, I guess, although I'm really up in the air on calling that Tier 4. :smallconfused:

[Sacrieur]

...I knew losing caster levels (especially a lot of them) lowers a class's tier, but Wizard 15 / MotUH 5 is tier /four/?

O_o Seriously? It's... it's 15 levels of wizard. 15 levels of wizard = 20 levels of rogue? Particularly if the wizard has a neat trick and slightly higher BAB and not literally 15 levels?

Either way, then, that makes it even more of an acceptable idea then, I guess, although I'm really up in the air on calling that Tier 4. :smallconfused:

The class by itself is tier 4 (maybe even 5).

A wizard 15 / MothUH 5 would be tier 3.

[Kantolin]

Ah.

More going on with tiers than I thought or knew about, then.

Either way, that can theoretically bring a wizard down to 'tier 3'. ^_^ So suggesting classes like that is another suggestion.

[Grendus]

MotUH is tier 4. Losing caster levels always lowers a class's tier. Optimized gishes sometimes fit into tier 3, which can be done with wizards and the like.

Since many gish builds can end up with 9th level spells, a truly optimized gish is T2 at worst. Something like Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 ends up with 18th level wizard spellcasting and 17 BAB. It's not as optimized as some of the better wizard builds (heck, it's not as optimized as some of the gish builds, that's just what I could make off the top of my head), but it gets 2 9th level spells per day plus bonus from int and specialization with full access to the wizard/sorcerer list. Sounds pretty T1 to me.

Your best bet is just to outright ban T1 base classes period. Everything they can do can be mimicked to a lesser degree by lower tier classes, with the sole exception of the Cleric (accursed clerics, half of the good curing spells are cleric only, and expecting the Favored Soul to spend his precious Spells Known on them is just asinine). T2's are probably ok if you just say no to some of the more outrageous builds and spells, and from T3 down it should just take token balancing to keep things straight.

[Firechanter]

More brainstorming:
How about ruling that if you want to play a full caster, you _must_ lose at least, say, 4 caster levels (one per 5 levels)? That would delay your spell progression and close out level 9 spells.

I'm in fact thinking also of the background world and NPCs, in a fantasy D&D setting there _should_ be Clerics and Druids and Wizards, but they shouldn't necessarily alter reality with a thought.

If you outright ban Tier 1 and, thus, the Cleric and his almost exclusive healing abilities, you need to introduce other healing options into the game. Like, increase Natural Healing from 1/level to something like 3+CON+level (this is what Conan does), allow Heal potions, make the Heal skill more potent, stuff like that.

Note: my group and I have played low-magic games for over 2 years now. Now we do want some high magic again for a change, so magic shouldn't become _too_ exclusive.

[Amphetryon]

A solution I've seen considered a couple of times is changing the 'uniform' nature of the XP tables. If you make it so that, for instance, the default XP table only applies to the Tier 3 classes, while the Tier 2 classes have a 10% slower progression and the Tier 1 classes have a 20% slower progression than default, you may find you reign in some of the Tier 1 shenanigans by the delay. Close the loopholes that obviate paying XP for crafting magic items, as well, and you could, potentially, slow the full casters down significantly in the power curve.

1e had a similar mechanism built in, if memory serves.

[Eldan]

A solution I've seen considered a couple of times is changing the 'uniform' nature of the XP tables. If you make it so that, for instance, the default XP table only applies to the Tier 3 classes, while the Tier 2 classes have a 10% slower progression and the Tier 1 classes have a 20% slower progression than default, you may find you reign in some of the Tier 1 shenanigans by the delay. Close the loopholes that obviate paying XP for crafting magic items, as well, and you could, potentially, slow the full casters down significantly in the power curve.

1e had a similar mechanism built in, if memory serves.

Would probably not work, really, at least not at moderately high levels, where it actually starts to have an effect, for several reasons.
Let's say we have a tier 3 and a tier 1. The Tier one has 45000 Xp, enough to reach level 10. The tier 1 has 36000 and exactly reached level 9.
Compare a level 9 wizard to a level 10 anything of tier 3. Or a level 13 wizard to a level 15 tier 3. By the time the tier 3 reaches level 20, the wizard is level 17, almost 18. Still not a very fair fight, in most circumstances.
Furthermore, unless you change the XP system as well, lower level characters will get more XP than their higher level counterparts and eventually catch up.

[Amphetryon]

Would probably not work, really, at least not at moderately high levels, where it actually starts to have an effect, for several reasons.
Let's say we have a tier 3 and a tier 1. The Tier one has 45000 Xp, enough to reach level 10. The tier 1 has 36000 and exactly reached level 9.
Compare a level 9 wizard to a level 10 anything of tier 3. Or a level 13 wizard to a level 15 tier 3. By the time the tier 3 reaches level 20, the wizard is level 17, almost 18. Still not a very fair fight, in most circumstances.
Furthermore, unless you change the XP system as well, lower level characters will get more XP than their higher level counterparts and eventually catch up.
I may have been unclear. I meant that, at 1st level, a Tier 3 class takes 1000 XP to reach level 2. A Tier 2 class would take 1100 to reach 2nd level, while a Tier 1 would take 1200. From 2nd to 3rd, a Tier 2 would take 2200 XP, while a Tier 1 would take 2400 XP, etc. So long as you're getting XP appropriate to your particular Tier, you wouldn't gain additional XP for being lower level, so you would only get a bonus if you fell behind due to missing a session or something similar.

[Eldan]

Yes, that was probably implied (though it makes multiclassing a bit of a pain), I just wanted to make sure.

Still, the other concern remains: a level 8 wizard will be brutally superiour to most 10th level fighters.

[Sacrieur]

Since many gish builds can end up with 9th level spells, a truly optimized gish is T2 at worst. Something like Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 ends up with 18th level wizard spellcasting and 17 BAB. It's not as optimized as some of the better wizard builds (heck, it's not as optimized as some of the gish builds, that's just what I could make off the top of my head), but it gets 2 9th level spells per day plus bonus from int and specialization with full access to the wizard/sorcerer list. Sounds pretty T1 to me.

Your best bet is just to outright ban T1 base classes period. Everything they can do can be mimicked to a lesser degree by lower tier classes, with the sole exception of the Cleric (accursed clerics, half of the good curing spells are cleric only, and expecting the Favored Soul to spend his precious Spells Known on them is just asinine). T2's are probably ok if you just say no to some of the more outrageous builds and spells, and from T3 down it should just take token balancing to keep things straight.

Speaking more along the lines of gishes who do not reach 8th or 9th level spells (more fighter based).

[Curmudgeon]

I like a layered set of remedies, as follows:

There's no rolling for any part of character level gain. (This is a good thing in general, even if you're playing without magic at all.) Adjust the points available for point buy based on the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0):
15 Point Buy (This Is Where The Wizard Is.)
22 Point Buy
28 Point Buy
32 Point Buy
40 Point Buy (This Is Where The Monk Is.)
You Might Try 50 Here, But Really: Just Skip Characters This Weak.
This assumes PCs are going to start in their primary class. If they change the primary class in later levels they'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.
There are no metamagic cost reducers of any kind, and certainly no "free" metamagic (ex: Incantatrix).
Beyond those spells that a class gets for free, spell access is limited. Wizards have free choice of 2 spells per level, and everything else is hard to get. The same goes for Sorcerers who want to swap out spells. Scrolls are 1/10th as common in treasure, and the costs for buying scrolls on the rare occasion that they're offered for sale are 5x as high as in standard rules. Finding someone who will allow copying their spellbook is rare, and the fees are at minimum 10x as high. Even finding out the name of a particular spell that will accomplish some desired aim can involve a quest for a spellcasting character, because magical knowledge is hoarded.
Finally, individual spells are scrutinized. For instance, the whole Alter Self-Polymorph-Shapechange line is dependent on knowing about particular forms, and those spells do not incorporate the various Monster Manuals. A spellcaster has to follow the standard skill rules:
They've got to Spot a creature of a particular type.
They've got to make the associated Knowledge check to know what type of creature it is.
Only then will the character know about that form; player knowledge of monsters is metagaming. Similarly, the power of the Shatter spell is dependent on the meaning of "solid", and any DM who lets a player get away with the anachronistic "neither liquid nor gas" chemical definition instead of "rigid, not flexible" should have Jello dumped in their pants. Enlarge Person increases the weight of a character and their gear by a factor of 8, so they'll be stronger but (usually) slowed down by encumbrance. Scrutiny is important to keep spells from being abused.

[Kaeso]

Ban wizard replace with shadowcaster

Ban sorcerer replace with warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer, a some homebrew to cover the missing schools (conjuration and transmutation)

Ban cleric replace with favored soul (may want some restriction based on diety to spells known)

Replace druids with wildshaping ranger

Why ban the sorcerer, yet allow the other tier 2 casters? Is the favoured soul really that much weaker than the sorcerer? He still has access to some powerful cleric spells.

[Firechanter]

Whoa, 15 points for T1 really is a serious turnoff... it's probably meant to discourage players from taking them, but 15 points is really poor (I would say unplayable). But I get the general idea. Retroactively losing points for MCing into higher tiers is a bit meta, but should have the desired effect.

Also, I'd give the T4 some fixes, for instance the Ranger:
* Caster level equal to class level, not half class level or such crap
* same goes for Animal Companion level
* D10 HD

Also, it could really use Uncanny Dodge.
In case of normal Ranger, might consider giving him both combat tracks instead of just one.
In case of Wildshape Ranger, mb make the shape more potent; allow Large or so.

(I've always been partial to the Ranger as a concept, but at some point simply gave up trying to play them work in D&D because of the crappy execution.)

[Sacrieur]

Increase the number of banned schools for the wizard. This will decrease his versatility.

[Kaeso]

Increase the number of banned schools for the wizard. This will decrease his versatility.

I'm not too sure about it, most of the good/broken spells are in the conjuration, transmutation and necromancy schools, though the loss of illusion could hurt.

[Seerow]

I'm not too sure about it, most of the good/broken spells are in the conjuration, transmutation and necromancy schools, though the loss of illusion could hurt.


Didn't someone earlier post about separating the spell schools into tiers, and you only get so many of each tier?

ie you could get 1 out of Conjur/Transmutation, and then your pick of 2 from Illusion/Enchantment/Abjuration/Necro, then just give everybody Divination/Evocation/Universal

Wizards end up with access to 6 schools, but their access to the truly powerful schools is much more limited.

[Gnaeus]

My most recent plan (not yet tried out) is to make wizards specialize, and then increase the spell levels of spells outside their school. So a conjurer might learn Enlarge Person (for example) as a 3rd level spell, polymorph as a 6th. He couldn't learn non-conjuration spells above 7th level at all.

The weakest schools (Enchantment, Divination, Evocation) would be compensated by having a lower penalty to out of school spell levels, like one level instead of 2.

[Curmudgeon]

Whoa, 15 points for T1 really is a serious turnoff... it's probably meant to discourage players from taking them
Actually, it's meant to make "save or die"/"save or suck" spells more likely to be survivable by decreasing the spellcasting ability bonus in the DC computation. There are sill plenty of useful spells left for casters, but I definitely want to discourage the "I'm a spellcaster so I win" mentality. Spellcasters in valuable supporting roles is perfectly fine.

[Sacrieur]

Actually, it's meant to make "save or die"/"save or suck" spells more likely to be survivable by decreasing the spellcasting ability bonus in the DC computation. There are sill plenty of useful spells left for casters, but I definitely want to discourage the "I'm a spellcaster so I win" mentality. Spellcasters in valuable supporting roles is perfectly fine.

Wizards would just put all of their points into Int, and then the remaining into Dex.

[JonestheSpy]

Well, aside from the banning/nerfing of the obviously broken spells and abilities, here's an important option no one has suggested yet: Control Access to Magic Items. Throw Wealth-by-level and magic marts in the garbage can where they belong. Choose magical rewards that are weighted to helping out the non-spellcasters of the party more, and the party can't just walk in to town and exchange that magic sword for a Headband of Intellect. Wizards can research their new spells per level, but can't just buy a scroll of any spell they please to copy into their book.

Oh, and make them actually keep track of (and pay for) their rare and expensive material components. I'll bet you find that wizards aren't going to be Forcecaging their opponents at the drop of a hat if you remind them it costs 1500 gp worth of ruby dust (which they actually have to track down from somewhere) every time they cast it.

Oh, and unless you're specifically running a campaign in the Lost World or something, don't let druids get away with the dinosaur nonsense. Make them stick to animal shapes and companions that are actually appropriate to the environment they live in.

[Curmudgeon]

Wizards would just put all of their points into Int, and then the remaining into Dex.
And then they'd be easy prey for a simple volley of arrows, perhaps with a bit of cheap poison. A d4 hit die and CON of 6-8 makes for low HP and bad Fortitude saves; that approach looks like a good recipe for death on a surprise round.

Min-maxing works both ways. If the Wizard completely maximizes their offensive abilities, they're minimizing their defense. And with lower ability scores the chances of them surviving that mistake aren't high.

[Gnaeus]

Well, aside from the banning/nerfing of the obviously broken spells and abilities, here's an important option no one has suggested yet: Control Access to Magic Items. Throw Wealth-by-level and magic marts in the garbage can where they belong. Choose magical rewards that are weighted to helping out the non-spellcasters of the party more, and the party can't just walk in to town and exchange that magic sword for a Headband of Intellect. Wizards can research their new spells per level, but can't just buy a scroll of any spell they please to copy into their book.


*Shrugs* So they just take their share of the loot in the form of valuables, and craft the items they need. Oh please Mr. DM. Please don't force me to snap WBL in half. It hurts wizards a bit (although they can easily get around it if they know how), but it doesn't really slow the other casters down much.

You can't really enforce a "weaker classes get all the loot" policy without metagaming in a particularly un-fun way. It works fine if the casters cooperate, but if the casters cooperate, it probably wasn't necessary to begin with.

[JonestheSpy]

You clearly missed the "Throw out WBL" part. And I notice you seem to forget that creating magic items costs xp, not just gold. Time can be a factor in many campaign situations, as well. And of course that the caster can't just create anything, because limiting access to scrolls means they won't necessarily have the right spells for the item they want.

Though this does remind me of some thoughts I've had on item creation. In my opinion, it shouldn't be as easy as "Take feat, spend some gold & XP, get whatever you want" formula. Someone who makes a magic sword should be a master smith, someone who creates a magical rope should be an incredibly skilled ropeweaver, the magic flowing through their fingers as they work. This seems far more in line with how magical things get created in myth and fantasy literature, certainly.

So a caster trying to create an item, in my view, should have to create a masterwork version of the item themselves or pay some kind of penalty on it's enchantment, probably more xp. And the enchantment would have to be happening as te item is created, so if the caster fails to create a masterwork item, they lose the gold and xp in the attempt.

Doesn't do much about wands or a couple of other things, but still helps a lot against the magic item Burger king syndrome.

Oh, and btw, what Gnaeus calls 'metagaming' I'd call 'running a campaign', but to each their own.

[Sacrieur]

And then they'd be easy prey for a simple volley of arrows, perhaps with a bit of cheap poison. A d4 hit die and CON of 6-8 makes for low HP and bad Fortitude saves; that approach looks like a good recipe for death on a surprise round.

Min-maxing works both ways. If the Wizard completely maximizes their offensive abilities, they're minimizing their defense. And with lower ability scores the chances of them surviving that mistake aren't high.

You mean they aren't all ready?

And I would just take levels in Abjurant Champion asap.

[Gnaeus]

You clearly missed the "Throw out WBL" part.

The you didn't say that you were throwing out gold and valuables. When they leave the dungeon, the casters can still insist that they split treasure evenly, and if the muggles all got magical toys, that just means that more gold goes to the casters. The casters can take all the expendables (potions and such). The casters can shrug and say "Fine. If I get no loot, buff yourself!"


And I notice you seem to forget that creating magic items costs xp, not just gold.

Exp is a river. At the cost of 1 level, you can make a TON of items.


And of course that the caster can't just create anything, because limiting access to scrolls means they won't necessarily have the right spells for the item they want.

Clerics and Druids know every spell on their list.



So a caster trying to create an item, in my view, should have to create a masterwork version of the item themselves or pay some kind of penalty on it's enchantment, probably more xp. And the enchantment would have to be happening as te item is created, so if the caster fails to create a masterwork item, they lose the gold and xp in the attempt.

OK. You have a view.


Time can be a factor in many campaign situations, as well.

Run a couple of adventures without loot, and see how fast the players who haven't been getting anything say "Eff This. I'm not leaving until I get my share of the treasure. Ya'll can sit down and wait!"


Oh, and btw, what Gnaeus calls 'metagaming' I'd call 'running a campaign', but to each their own.

Nope. If the fighter gets a new sword and some armor, and the rogue gets a new dagger and some boots, and the Wizard and Cleric get nada, and then they all split up the gold and valuables and expendables evenly, that has nothing to do with running a campaign, and everything to do with metagaming. Most people who risk their lives expect to be rewarded for it. And the people who do the most aren't going to expect to be rewarded the least. The cleric might claim the fighter's new armor for himself, he can wear armor too, and if the fighter bitches the cleric just points to the fighter's sword. The wizard says, I can't use any of that stuff, and takes all the valuables.

Normally, I am all about cooperative play. I am a firm believer in party buffs, and in crafting to aid the weakest members of the team. But if my DM tried to tell me that I didn't get a fair share of the loot because I was a caster, he would regret it, and the muggles would regret it more. It would lead to a vastly worse, vastly less fun outcome for everyone in the group than if he came to me at the beginning and said "Hey, Druids are much stronger than Monks. Can we work out a way to play cooperatively and let everyone have some spotlight time?"

[Marnath]

Exp is a river. At the cost of 1 level, you can make a TON of items.


If the party is fine with just taking some months off to sit around and watch you craft, and no bad guys interrupt you and waste your effort.


Run a couple of adventures without loot, and see how fast the players who haven't been getting anything say "Eff This. I'm not leaving until I get my share of the treasure. Ya'll can sit down and wait!"



Nope. If the fighter gets a new sword and some armor, and the rogue gets a new dagger and some boots, and the Wizard and Cleric get nada, and then they all split up the gold and valuables and expendables evenly, that has nothing to do with running a campaign, and everything to do with metagaming. Most people who risk their lives expect to be rewarded for it. And the people who do the most aren't going to expect to be rewarded the least. The cleric might claim the fighter's new armor for himself, he can wear armor too, and if the fighter bitches the cleric just points to the fighter's sword. The wizard says, I can't use any of that stuff, and takes all the valuables.

Normally, I am all about cooperative play. I am a firm believer in party buffs, and in crafting to aid the weakest members of the team. But if my DM tried to tell me that I didn't get a fair share of the loot because I was a caster, he would regret it, and the muggles would regret it more. It would lead to a vastly worse, vastly less fun outcome for everyone in the group than if he came to me at the beginning and said "Hey, Druids are much stronger than Monks. Can we work out a way to play cooperatively and let everyone have some spotlight time?"

Oh, so you're "that" player, eh?

[JaronK]

If the party is fine with just taking some months off to sit around and watch you craft, and no bad guys interrupt you and waste your effort.

A Dedicated Wight is the obvious solution to this problem. Nice and easy.

JaronK

[Gnaeus]

If the party is fine with just taking some months off to sit around and watch you craft, and no bad guys interrupt you and waste your effort.

If the party takes its share of the (unusable to me) magical loot, leaving my character with no relevant items and under share of treasure, and then refuses to sit down while I make some, they are acting hostile to my PC in character, and they should expect an in character response. Their justification for that refusal would determine how hostile that response is.



Oh, so you're "that" player, eh?

If by "that" player you mean a player who thinks that his characters IC decisions are not to be dictated by a DM (unless I have been feared, MCed, etc.), and who gets mad when the DM tries to build an illogical world to force him to do things that he would have done freely if he had just been asked nicely, yes, I am.

[Grim Reader]

The usual solution posited is to use Favored Soul for Cleric, use Spirit Shaman for Druid, and use one of the list-casters (Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler) for Wizard. You'll reign in a majority of the shenanigans that way, though it's obviously still possible for any of the 'replacement' Classes (except, possibly, the Warmage) to still stomp all over an unprepared DM's campaign.

I second this. I think you should feel free to perform a fluffectomy, too.

I.e. transplant the Cleric name and fluff to the Favored Souls mechanics, etc.

[Firechanter]

Is there a notable difference between Favoured Soul and the Spontaneous Divine Casters rules variant?

I'm beginning to like this idea. I guess I'd stick to calling it Cleric in any case.

[DeltaEmil]

Favored Soul doesn't get Turn Undead.

And Turn Undead is used to fuel divine metamagic spells.

[Curmudgeon]

Favored Soul doesn't get Turn Undead.

And Turn Undead is used to fuel divine metamagic spells.
So this fails as Cleric refluffing, but succeeds for game balance.

The Favored Soul can always use spells like Searing Light to attack undead, and Undeath to Death at higher levels.

[paddyfool]

Didn't someone earlier post about separating the spell schools into tiers, and you only get so many of each tier?

ie you could get 1 out of Conjur/Transmutation, and then your pick of 2 from Illusion/Enchantment/Abjuration/Necro, then just give everybody Divination/Evocation/Universal

Wizards end up with access to 6 schools, but their access to the truly powerful schools is much more limited.

This could work. Especially if you also limited his spells per day, e.g. to being equivalent to the Bard spell progression (compensating slightly by handing out Bard-level hp & skill points). If you're doing this, though, you should probably also impose some nerf on sorcerers (e.g. making them all battle sorcerers).

Another idea I had was to make the Tier 1 classes into prestige classes that you can't enter until level 3 or so, thus imposing an immediate and binding caster level nerf (e.g. requiring Knowledge(arcana) 6 to take your first level in Wizard, and also having a homebrew feat that allows you to treat knowledge(arcana) as always being a class skill besides other benefits). The trouble with this approach is that it should also impose some restriction on the availability of magic items, unless you've got a lot of magewrights running around or something.

[Draz74]

Is there a notable difference between Favoured Soul and the Spontaneous Divine Casters rules variant?

I'm beginning to like this idea. I guess I'd stick to calling it Cleric in any case.

Yes, lots of differences.

Favored Soul has a good reflex save, no heavy armor proficiency, and a handful of other random class features (free Weapon Specialization, energy resistance, and wings), but does not gain Turn Undead. For reasons that I truly can't fathom, it also doesn't have Knowledge (religion) as a class skill.

Favored Soul also has casting that depends on both WIS and CHA -- this part, I actually like, and recommend adding to the nerfed Cleric as well.

The biggest difference, though, is that the Favored Soul selects whatever spells it wants from the general Cleric list, and has no domains, while the nerfed Cleric is forced to have many of its Spells Known come from its domains. Which I love, since it means that Clerics of Kord will actually be different from Clerics of Boccob. (Which, counter to the fluff, is not going to be true of Favored Souls to a significant degree.)

[erikun]

Favored Souls also get delayed casting, worse than the sorcerer (in that 2nd level spells are delayed as well).


If the party is fine with just taking some months off to sit around and watch you craft, and no bad guys interrupt you and waste your effort.
So you're completely changing the crafting rules as well? Not that I have a problem with it, as crafting could use a healthy revision, but changing WBL and spell acquisition and magical crafting makes me wonder if just changing the spells themselves would be an easier task.


Oh, so you're "that" player, eh?
Flip it around. What if the party found a brand new sword and suit of armor that is perfect for the Fighter, along with a magical item or two that he's been wanting for a long time. However, rather than give them to the Fighter, the rest of the party gives them to the Wizard because she can do more, even selling them for half gold, than the Fighter would with the equipment. Oh, and the Fighter doesn't get any gold for compensation either.

Would the Fighter player be "that" kind of player for being upset at the situation?

[Tvtyrant]

Why not just apply the level buy off rules to tier 1 characters? I know it sounds weird, but if they top out at level 16 then they will be about equal to a Tier 3 character. A progression such as:

level 1
level 2
level 3
Skipped-HD only
level 4
level 5
level 6
level 7
Skipped-HD only
level 8
level 9
level 10
Skipped-HD only
level 11
level 12
level 13
Skipped-HD only
level 14
level 15
level 16

They get 20 HD but only 16 CL and they get level 9s inside of early Epic. You could even then use 9s instead of epic casting to reduce the crazy.

[Curmudgeon]

Why not just apply the level buy off rules to tier 1 characters?
Level buyoff doesn't happen that way; it's not every 3 levels. And the more LA you've got, the more class levels you take before buyoff can start. If you're buying off +1 LA it's just at level 3, and if you're buying off +2 LA it's just at levels 6 and 9 (skipping 3).

[Tvtyrant]

Level buyoff doesn't happen that way; it's not every 3 levels. And the more LA you've got, the more class levels you take before buyoff can start. If you're buying off +1 LA it's just at level 3, and if you're buying off +2 LA it's just at levels 6 and 9 (skipping 3).

Hmmm, good point. Still I think my solution would work.

[Kylarra]

Could just make losing the 4 caster levels mandatory by some point, so that forces them to PrC into things that lose levels or to just take non-caster dips.

[JaronK]

The thing is, there's some extremely powerful spells already even in the 8th level spells bracket. Because spell casters get exponentially stronger, even losing four caster levels might not be enough when dealing with the T1 casters.

Possibly even slow them down to getting second level spells at level 4, then gaining a new spell level every three levels (meaning they only get 7th level spells at 20). Of course, at that point a lot of people start getting really upset at how you're nerfing their class... and Druids are still amazing (a druid without spell casting at all can easily be T3). This is why I prefer to just say "eh, T1 and 2 classes aren't available to PCs in this game" and then make such classes extremely rare in the world anyway. One time I even made them into epic only PrCs.

JaronK

[Draz74]

Favored Souls also get delayed casting,
Good point.

worse than the sorcerer (in that 2nd level spells are delayed as well).
Um, 2nd-level spells are delayed for Sorcerers too. I think Favored Souls and Sorcerers have the exact same Spells/Day table.

[MeeposFire]

I am not entirely sure but I think that favored souls get more spells known as well.

[Kylarra]

I am not entirely sure but I think that favored souls get more spells known as well.Yeah they end up with 6 known for most levels (and 5, 4 for the last 2 levels) and start off at 3 known per new spell level.

I think I would probably do something like allow Tier 2 classes but enforce some sort of mandatory caster level loss that I mentioned above. In the case of favored souls and similar fullcasters with actual features, probably throw them a bone so that they can capstone if they want.

[Tvtyrant]

What about splitting the different schools so each one is a single class? Such as a Conjurer that can only pick spells from a modded conjuration list and has the same progression as a Wizard?

Like this kinda list:
0
• Acid Splash: Orb deals 1d3 acid damage.
• Create Water: Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.

1
• Grease: Makes 10-ft. square or one object slippery.
• Mage Armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
• Mount: Summons riding horse for 2 hours/level.
• Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
• Unseen Servant: Invisible force obeys your commands.
• Summon Nature’s Ally I: Calls creature to fight.
2
• Acid Arrow: Ranged touch attack; 2d4 damage for 1 round +1 round/three levels.
• Fog Cloud: Fog obscures vision.
• Glitterdust: Blinds creatures, outlines invisible creatures.
• Summon Swarm: Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
• Web: Fills 20-ft.-radius spread with sticky spiderwebs.
• Summon Nature’s Ally II: Calls creature to fight.
3
• Phantom Steed: Magic horse appears for 1 hour/level.
• Sepia Snake Sigil M: Creates text symbol that immobilizes reader.
• Sleet Storm: Hampers vision and movement.
• Stinking Cloud: Nauseating vapors, 1 round/level.
• Create Food and Water: Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
• Summon Nature’s Ally III: Calls creature to fight.
4
• Black Tentacles: Tentacles grapple all within 20 ft. spread.
• Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.
• Minor Creation: Creates one cloth or wood object.
• Secure Shelter: Creates sturdy cottage.
• Solid Fog: Blocks vision and slows movement.
• Summon Nature’s Ally IV: Calls creature to fight.
5
• Cloudkill: Kills 3 HD or less; 4-6 HD save or die, 6+ HD take Con damage.
• Mage’s Faithful Hound: Phantom dog can guard, attack.
• Major Creation: As minor creation, plus stone and metal.
• Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level.
• Wall of Stone: Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
• Wall of Thorns: Thorns damage anyone who tries to pass.
• Insect Plague: Locust swarms attack creatures.
• Summon Nature’s Ally V: Calls creature to fight.
6
• Acid Fog: Fog deals acid damage.
• Planar Binding: As lesser planar binding, but up to 12 HD.
• Wall of Iron M: 30 hp/four levels; can topple onto foes.
• Heroes’ Feast: Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
• Planar Ally X: As lesser planar ally, but up to 12 HD.
• Word of Recall: Teleports you back to designated place.
• Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
• Summon Nature’s Ally VI: Calls creature to fight.
7
• Instant Summons M: Prepared object appears in your hand.
• Mage’s Magnificent Mansion F: Door leads to extradimensional mansion.
• Phase Door: Creates an invisible passage through wood or stone.
• Summon Nature’s Ally VII: Calls creature to fight.
8
• Incendiary Cloud: Cloud deals 4d6 fire damage/round.
• Maze: Traps subject in extradimensional maze.
• Trap the Soul M F: Imprisons subject within gem.
• Summon Nature’s Ally VIII: Calls creature to fight.
9
• Summon Nature’s Ally IX: Calls creature to fight.
• Shambler: Summons 1d4+2 shambling mounds to fight for you.
• Elemental Swarm: Summons multiple elementals.
• Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

[Draz74]

What about splitting the different schools so each one is a single class? Such as a Conjurer that can only pick spells from a modded conjuration list and has the same progression as a Wizard?[/SPOILER]

I've seen this done on the Homebrew forum before. A Wizard with only Conjuration could still potentially be Tier 1 ... and yet it would also be pretty boring to play. The same is even more true for all the other schools, if they were in fact nerfed badly enough to bring them down in the Tier system at all.

If you want to do something along these lines, I'd take a page out of the Psion's book: keep all the weak spells or spells that the Wizard just plain needs in a "general" Wizard spell list, then force the Wizard to specialize and only get "cool" spells from one particular school.

(Mind you, some schools might not have anything "cool" at some levels in Core-only.)

[Sacrieur]

Yes, that would make things boring.

Instead, split it into 2 Major Schools and 3 Minor. The wizard may pick any of the 5 schools to cast spells from, the other 2 schools are banned.

The wizard progresses normally in major schools. In minor schools, spells are treated as one level higher. So learning a level 1 spell in a minor school actually is treated as a level 2 spell for all purposes (except spell DC). Spells cast from minor schools require a spell slot higher than normal, and are also cast with -1 the CL.

[Draz74]

Yes, that would make things boring.

Instead, split it into 2 Major Schools and 3 Minor. The wizard may pick any of the 5 schools to cast spells from, the other 2 schools are banned.

The wizard progresses normally in major schools. In minor schools, spells are treated as one level higher. So learning a level 1 spell in a minor school actually is treated as a level 2 spell for all purposes (except spell DC). Spells cast from minor schools require a spell slot higher than normal, and are also cast with -1 the CL.

Kind of an insignificant nerf. A wizard with Major: Conjuration and Transmutation, Minor: Divination, Illusion, Necromancy would still be a full Tier 1 class.

[Kylarra]

Kind of an insignificant nerf. A wizard with Major: Conjuration and Transmutation, Minor: Divination, Illusion, Necromancy would still be a full Tier 1 class.Probably there was an inherent balancing of the different schools intended.

[Heliomance]

I'm sure I'm tripping over some fallacy or other here, but why bother? D&D is too broken to be fixed just by changing a couple of things. A lot of the suggestions force the party to lose a lot of functionality. There are no spontcaster classes for the conjuration, abjuration, transmutation, or divination schools. Should those schools simply be unavailable? There is no tier 3 class with the flavour of the Druid. Why can't I play a nature-themed caster?

The easiest way to balance D&D is to sit your players down and ask them to play nice. If they co-operate, it doesn't matter how unbalanced the system is. Everyone will have fun anyway.

[JaronK]

There is no tier 3 class with the flavour of the Druid. Why can't I play a nature-themed caster?

Because you don't know about the Wildshape Variant Ranger? Just saying... it's a nature themed shapeshifty guy with some casting that's actually balanced.

It's a shame about the lack of arcane options other than Duskblades, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Warmages, and Hexblades. But those do contribute.

JaronK

[Firechanter]

Why, that's quite a lot of options. I'm not worried about arcane casters. My current problem is what to do about the Divine casters.

Favoured Soul/Spontaneous Cleric both have the problem that the player will be compelled to use most of his Spells Known for healing/restorative spells, since that will be his main job in the party. Here I see the danger of reducing this party member to "healbot" status that doesn't have so many exciting options in play.

Concerning the Druid, I tend toward stripping Wildshape entirely, making it a pure caster, and making Wildshape exclusive to the variant Ranger.

[Amphetryon]

Why, that's quite a lot of options. I'm not worried about arcane casters. My current problem is what to do about the Divine casters.

Favoured Soul/Spontaneous Cleric both have the problem that the player will be compelled to use most of his Spells Known for healing/restorative spells, since that will be his main job in the party. Here I see the danger of reducing this party member to "healbot" status that doesn't have so many exciting options in play.

Concerning the Druid, I tend toward stripping Wildshape entirely, making it a pure caster, and making Wildshape exclusive to the variant Ranger.

Divine casters only use most of their Spells Known for healing if they're being kept a)below WBL, b)away from the gear that obviates that role c)in the dark about their other options or d)happy in the role of healbot. From an efficiency standpoint, in-combat healing is almost never the best choice except with Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) or Mass Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/healMass.htm), and out of combat healing can be handled by scrolls, wands and potions.

For the Druid, I've proposed using the Aspect of Nature variant and swapping the Druid's and the Ranger's Animal Companion progressions as a partial fix before (aside from using Spirit Shaman).

[Firechanter]

Thanks; swapping Ranger and Druid Companions seems like a great idea. ^^

Aspect of Nature seems like a "disguised nerf" to shut the druid players up; I think you could as well strip Wild Shape entirely without replacement, and you'd still have a full caster with formidable spell selection -- maybe it would drop the Druid to T2, but certainly not below T3 so it should be fine.

[Sacrieur]

Kind of an insignificant nerf. A wizard with Major: Conjuration and Transmutation, Minor: Divination, Illusion, Necromancy would still be a full Tier 1 class.

Not really. It's nixing the wizard's versatility. You realize that a wizard with those majors and minors can't become an abjurant champion right? Please note that tier 1 classes are not more powerful than tier 2, they're more versatile. If a -1 penalty isn't enough, then a -2 penalty should be sufficient to the minor schools.

[Tokuhara]

Here's how I plan on doing it in MY upcoming campaign:

Banned: All Core Classes (removes the Big 3)

Allowed:

Wu Jen (Replaces Wizard)
Warmage, Beguiler, & Dread Necro (Replaces Sorcerer)
Duskblade, Warblade, & Hexmage (Replaces Fighter)
Sohei from OA (Replaces Barbarian)
Knight & Crusader (Replaces Paladin)
Scout (Replaces Ranger)
Spellthief and Lurk (Replaces Rogue)
Spirit Shaman (Replaces Druid)
Swordsage (Replaces Monk)
Favored Soul & Shugenja (Replaces Cleric)
Jester from DMC (Replaces Bard)

[Ernir]

If you ask me... to rebalance the spellcasters, you need to stop thinking about classes and start thinking about spells. =/