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Callista
2011-03-29, 03:10 PM
I'm going to be starting a game soon and want to set down some concrete house rules. The system is 3.5, but many of them actually apply to all systems. I'd like some feedback on the list. It looks too long to me, like maybe nobody will bother to read it. And if I've left any obvious things out or put things in that are so obvious that they don't need to be there, please do tell me. Thanks.


Character Creation:

4d6, drop lowest, arrange in any order. If you don’t like your scores, you may choose to use 32 point buy instead.
All non-core class features, items, etc. must be approved. (They probably will be. I just need to see them first, especially if I don’t have that book.)
Get me an up-to-date copy of your character sheet when you level.
Your character must have a backstory. It can be one or two sentences or it can be a novel, but there has to be one.
New players bring in characters at average party level.
Backup characters are allowed. They come in at average party level minus one.
Everybody makes their characters together; the characters must be compatible enough not to kill each other. The party cannot have both Good and Evil characters in it simultaneously (I may approve exceptions if you explain how the party can make it work).
Choose one Profession skill. This is your character’s job before he became an adventurer. You gain four free skill points at level one to put into that skill, and one point at every level thereafter.


Rules Changes

There is no XP penalty for multiclassing.
The following spells do not exist (are not available to either PCs or NPCs): Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Mordenkainen's Disjunction
We are not using massive damage rules.
Druids must have encountered the animal in question to use its form for Wildshape. If the animal is common where your druid comes from (according to his backstory), it is available.
The Monk gets full BAB; Flurry of Blows is a standard action.
Sneak Attack now works on Undead and Constructs.
The Fighter gets a bonus feat at every level.
Diplomacy is an opposed check rather than a flat DC. It may be opposed by Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or a Will save (whichever is highest).
Any character who would lose class powers due to alignment change gains Knowledge(Religion) as a class skill. Knowledge(Religion) checks may be made to determine what your character’s belief system says about a potential decision.


Alignment System

The following alignment restrictions have been changed:
The Bard and Assassin are no longer restricted by alignment. The Assassin's kill may be substituted with any dangerous covert mission.
The Monk may not be Chaotic, but can be neutral.
The Barbarian may not be Lawful, but can be neutral.
Druids are allowed to be CG and CE.
The CG, CE, and LE paladin variants in UA are available in addition to the LG version.
We are using an objective alignment system with the definitions of alignment in the PHB.
Involuntary, coerced, or unavoidable actions cannot change your PC's alignment unless you want them to. Paladins and characters with BoED feats still lose class features if the act is Evil, but in these cases, a day of meditation can duplicate an Atonement spell, or an Atonement spell can be cast without a quest or XP component.
Changing alignments is a sign of character development, not a punishment. If you lose class features and do not want the character to return to his old alignment, you may rebuild the character in accordance with his new alignment so he stays at the same power level. I will notify you if your character has changed alignment; or you may declare your character has changed alignment (if you can explain why) at any time.
The following are no longer intrinsically associated with alignment: Poison; the creation of unintelligent undead; and any aligned spells (these retain their descriptors, but casting a G/E/L/C spell is not automatically an aligned act). Unintelligent undead do still introduce negative energy into the Prime Material--an environmental threat that, on a large scale, can leach the life out of an area, but not automatically evil. Intelligent undead are evil by nature, and creating one is an evil act.


Rebuilding your Character

If you want to rebuild your character, show me the changes first. I may directly ask you to rebuild your character if they are too far below the average power level of the party.
Rebuilt characters must remain similar to what they were before the rebuild. Your newly rebuilt character's abilities should resemble the old ones enough to preserve suspension of disbelief.


Other Stuff

Good role-play awards more XP than just killing things. Avoiding a fight or negotiating a truce awards the same amount of XP as winning it. By group consensus, we may choose to do away with XP altogether and just level up periodically (in which case item-crafters will use crafting points).
If you are not at a game, your character fades into the background and is assumed to be there, just unusually quiet.
If a rules loophole is discovered that allows an overpowered action, it works the first time, but it's a fluke and never happens again. If you are trying something truly broken, I reserve the right to throw my DMG at you.
If your character dies through deliberate sacrifice (either in character, or out of character because you had him do what his personality dictated even though you knew it was dangerous), your new character comes in at average party level, or you may purchase True Resurrection for half price from a friendly church. Truly unforgettable incidents will usually have other rewards.
If your character is in serious trouble, he may choose to pray to his deity. Whether the deity answers depends on the importance of the situation, the character's status with his deity, the nature of the request, and a factor of random chance. Depending on who the deity is, they may also make demands/requests of your character in return.
When casting Calling, Summoning, and related spells, remember that your targets have independent lives and allies of their own. Abuse them, and they may retaliate.
When using Wish, Limited Wish, or Miracle: These spells have limits, and may fail or misfire if pushed beyond these limits. If someone is casting the Wish or Miracle for you, their intentions and attitude can affect the outcome.
A character at negative HP is mechanically unconscious but need not be role-played as unconscious. A character at less than -10 HP but above -50 is dying and cannot be saved by magical healing. A PC who is dying may, before he dies, briefly speak or gesture. (Yes, including flipping off whatever just killed you.) This does not allow for spellcasting, attacking, or any other strenuous action.
Nobody goes home until everything’s clean and all borrowed property has been returned.
Dice are read as they land. If they can’t be read or land cockeyed, re-roll.
If you have a problem, talk about it rather than blowing up or gossiping.
Anyone who is abusive to anyone else will be summarily kicked out of the game.

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-29, 03:17 PM
These all sound perfectly reasonable to me. There are things here that I would not have done, but I would not object to even one of these rules if I came to a table running them.

As for criticism, I guess some of the "other stuff" should be obvious enough that you don't need to mention it (i.e. basic human decency). Not a big deal though.

Cartigan
2011-03-29, 03:20 PM
I'd recommend using Pathfinder's modifications of Polymorph and Disjunction.

And are you keeping the normal rules for Druid Wilshape instead of either Pathfinder Polymorph school rules or PHB II Wildshape replacement?
Also, I'd look at Pathfinder for a Fighter fix rather than shoving more feats on it (or do both).

Tyndmyr
2011-03-29, 03:24 PM
* 4d6, drop lowest, arrange in any order. If you don’t like your scores, you may choose to use 32 point buy instead.

Reasonable. I've used this before with success. Just be aware that you may get lucky folks with high scores. I suggest rolling scores only be done at the table.


* All non-core class features, items, etc. must be approved. (They probably will be. I just need to see them first, especially if I don’t have that book.)
* Get me an up-to-date copy of your character sheet when you level.
* Your character must have a backstory. It can be one or two sentences or it can be a novel, but there has to be one.

All reasonable.


* New players bring in characters at average party level.
* Backup characters are allowed. They come in at average party level minus one.

Eh, okish, unless you ever have the point where a player is far enough behind that he benefits from killing his current character off. I try to discourage suicide.


* Everybody makes their characters together; the characters must be compatible enough not to kill each other. The party cannot have both Good and Evil characters in it simultaneously (I may approve exceptions if you explain how the party can make it work).

Reasonable. I've seen the "two steps from lawful good" rule work well as well. CN is frequently the trouble alignment for those banned from evil.


* Choose one Profession skill. This is your character’s job before he became an adventurer. You gain four free skill points at level one to put into that skill, and one point at every level thereafter.

Profession skill points are unlikely to break anything. No worries.



Rules Changes

* There is no XP penalty for multiclassing.

Everyone should play with this rule at all times.


* The following spells do not exist (are not available to either PCs or NPCs): Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Mordenkainen's Disjunction

Reasonable.


* We are not using massive damage rules.

Massive Damage rules are terrible. They should also never be used. Good job.


* Druids must have encountered the animal in question to use its form for Wildshape. If the animal is common where your druid comes from (according to his backstory), it is available.

I advise against it for the same reason I advise against most "must see/experience x" rules. It has the unfortunate effect of distracting druids from whatever the main quest is, and resulting in side quests to find whatever.


* The Monk gets full BAB; Flurry of Blows is an attack action.
* Sneak Attack now works on Undead and Constructs.

Add plants.


* The Fighter gets a bonus feat at every level.

Be aware that they'll be out of decent core feats with the quickness. Otherwise, ok.


* Diplomacy is an opposed check rather than a flat DC. It may be opposed by Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or a Will save (whichever is highest).

I presume this is for changing attitudes, as it is already opposed otherwise. I suggest making it an opposed check modified by the normal DC of the attitude modifier. Or using the giants rules. They're aright.


* Any character who would lose class powers due to alignment change gains Knowledge(Religion) as a class skill. Knowledge(Religion) checks may be made to determine what your character’s belief system says about a potential decision.

Probably a wise decision.


Alignment System

* The following alignment restrictions have been changed:
o The Bard and Assassin are no longer restricted by alignment. The Assassin's kill may be substituted with any dangerous covert mission.
o The Monk may not be Chaotic, but can be neutral.
o The Barbarian may not be Lawful, but can be neutral.
o Druids are allowed to be CG and CE.
o The CG, CE, and LE paladin variants in UA are available in addition to the LG version.
* We are using an objective alignment system with the definitions of alignment in the PHB.
* Involuntary, coerced, or unavoidable actions cannot change your PC's alignment unless you want them to. Paladins and characters with BoED feats still lose class features if the act is Evil, but in these cases, a day of meditation can duplicate an Atonement spell, or an Atonement spell can be cast without a quest or XP component.
* Changing alignments is a sign of character development, not a punishment. If you lose class features and do not want the character to return to his old alignment, you may rebuild the character in accordance with his new alignment so he stays at the same power level. I will notify you if your character has changed alignment; or you may declare your character has changed alignment (if you can explain why) at any time.

All solid.


* The following are no longer intrinsically associated with alignment: Poison; the creation of unintelligent undead; and any aligned spells (these retain their descriptors, but casting a G/E/L/C spell is not automatically an aligned act). Unintelligent undead do still introduce negative energy into the Prime Material--an environmental threat that, on a large scale, can leach the life out of an area, but not automatically evil. Intelligent undead are evil by nature, and creating one is an evil act.

Oddly enough, casting aligned spells is not automatically an aligned act by RAW. It's odd, but there you have it.

Does it count as evil if the intelligent undead is you?


* If your character dies through deliberate sacrifice (either in character, or out of character because you had him do what his personality dictated even though you knew it was dangerous), your new character comes in at average party level, or you may purchase True Resurrection for half price from a friendly church. Truly unforgettable incidents will usually have other rewards.

Drop this one. It's hard on suspension of disbelief....but I like the thought behind it. Rewarding dangerous/awesome actions is solid, and I recommend using an action/drama die like system for doing so.

Everything not specifically commented on is solid. Overall, I like them, and consider them good enough that I wouldn't mind at all playing under them. This is, sadly, significantly more positive than most feedback I give.

Velaryon
2011-03-29, 03:27 PM
If I were one of your players, there are some rules I would want a more concrete definition of. For example:


When casting Calling, Summoning, and related spells, remember that your targets have independent lives and allies of their own. Abuse them, and they may retaliate.

What constitutes abuse? Also:


When using Wish, Limited Wish, or Miracle: These spells have limits, and may fail or misfire if pushed beyond these limits. If someone is casting the Wish or Miracle for you, their intentions and attitude can affect the outcome.

I would want to know what the limits on these spells are.

Other than some clarification on points such as those, there's nothing there that I would object to.

Cartigan
2011-03-29, 03:28 PM
On Summoning, no one is hurt by Conjuration (Summoning). The creatures aren't really there, so to say. That's why they are subject to spell resistance and Protection from X spells. When they "die," they just go back to whence they came.

erikun
2011-03-29, 03:31 PM
Backup characters are allowed. They come in at average party level minus one.
Any reason for this? Punishing characters for having the unfortunate circumstance of dying doesn't seem fair, and having them come in at a lower level would just be a drag on the party. Less than average WBL would accomplish much the same thing without hampering the character's level-appropriate abilities.


If a rules loophole is discovered that allows an overpowered action, it works the first time, but it's a fluke and never happens again. If you are trying something truly broken, I reserve the right to throw my DMG at you.
I would recommend the whole bookcase. And the offending player must spend next session sitting next to said bookcase, for ease of toppling if they try it again. :smallbiggrin:

Callista
2011-03-29, 03:32 PM
re. calling/summoning--It depends on what the creature thinks of as abuse. If you're summoning imps and then ordering them to fight ancient red dragons, you better believe you're gonna have some po'd imps on your hands. On the other hand, if you're summoning lantern archons, they may be perfectly willing to get themselves occasionally roasted and recalled to their home plane for a good cause. Summoned animals aren't too likely to consider you an enemy, even if you do use them to detect traps; but if you summon a celestial being and force it to do something horrible, you'll have an enemy for life. And if you Gate in a pit fiend and mess with it, I feel sorry for you.

Wish/Miracle: The spell description states the limits. Outside those limits, the spell may fail or produce a lesser effect than what was wanted. If they're being cast by someone who wants to screw you over, you may get a corrupted, literally interpreted, or otherwise twisted wish.

Re. bringing in backups at average level-1: They also get more XP at a lower level, so they catch up pretty quick. If we decide to just level up without using XP, I guess that'd have to be changed.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-29, 03:47 PM
Any reason for this? Punishing characters for having the unfortunate circumstance of dying doesn't seem fair, and having them come in at a lower level would just be a drag on the party. Less than average WBL would accomplish much the same thing without hampering the character's level-appropriate abilities.

It's not fair. But here's the thing...death is supposed to be a penalty. It's not something that is supposed to treat the one who died the same as the one who lived.

Additionally, allowing new characters to come in at average party level devalues resurrection spells. It becomes very attractive to let the party loot the body of the fallen and make a new char instead of taking the wealth/level hit.

Pigkappa
2011-03-29, 03:49 PM
Most of them are good. I quote the ones I don't like:


# The Monk gets full BAB; Flurry of Blows is an attack action.

I would say that Flurry of Blows is a standard attack action. I'm not sure, but the way you've written it, it may imply that a level 20 monk can use a Full Attack to make 3 attacks, and each of them is a Flurry of Blows (so, 15 attacks).



# Sneak Attack now works on Undead and Constructs.

Fluffwise, this makes little sense...




# Diplomacy is an opposed check rather than a flat DC. It may be opposed by Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or a Will save (whichever is highest).

This makes it even better in some cases (e.g. when dealing with a very angry Fighter who has low will save and likely no ranks in sense motive and diplomacy). I would make it an opposed check against the opponent's level/hitdice if it's better than his sense motive, will save or diplomacy bonus. Also, heavy circumstance bonuses and penalties should apply.




If you are not at a game, your character fades into the background and is assumed to be there, just unusually quiet.

This is absolutely unrealistic in combat situations. What happens if there's a TPK when one player is missing?



# If your character is in serious trouble, he may choose to pray to his deity. Whether the deity answers depends on the importance of the situation, the character's status with his deity, the nature of the request, and a factor of random chance. Depending on who the deity is, they may also make demands/requests of your character in return.

There's the risk that the players will expect you to save them in case of need. I wouldn't like this.

aquaticrna
2011-03-29, 04:00 PM
Druids must have encountered the animal in question to use its form for Wildshape. If the animal is common where your druid comes from (according to his backstory), it is available.

Pretty sure that it says this explicitly in the phb under wildshape. AFB so i can't double check

SurlySeraph
2011-03-29, 04:30 PM
Most seem quite good and eminently reasonable.


standard[/B] attack action. I'm not sure, but the way you've written it, it may imply that a level 20 monk can use a Full Attack to make 3 attacks, and each of them is a Flurry of Blows (so, 15 attacks).

This is an issue, yep. Reword to say that you can use FoB to make 2 attacks as a standard action, or an extra attack as part of a full attack as normal.


This makes it even better in some cases (e.g. when dealing with a very angry Fighter who has low will save and likely no ranks in sense motive and diplomacy).

I'm pretty sure it means you use whatever's best for the person resisting, not what's best for the diplomat.

Also, you may get a Druid player who wants to say his druid is a world traveler, or comes from The Tropical Island Of Extremely Badass Animals, or who writes out a full list of every animal his druid has ever seen. Such people can be dealt with by telling them that they should be reasonable, and you'll be the judge in cases where they aren't.
(As a side note, allowing one wildshape form per rank of Knowledge (nature) can be a a useful houserule for people who want to obsessively catalogue everything they could possibly turn into. I doubt you'll have that problem, but if you do it's a good solution).

awa
2011-03-29, 04:51 PM
the typical logic behind allowing a rouge to sneak attack undead and constructs is that a undead and golem have weak points they might not be the same weaknesses as a living creature but their are points that are more vulnerable then others such as the joints on an iron golem or the head of a zombie.

Callista
2011-03-29, 05:04 PM
Yup. If the rogue is sneak-attacking the zombie, it means he's going for the head. And if he's sneak-attacking the golem, he's probably jamming his rapier into an important part of its mechanism.


This makes it even better in some cases (e.g. when dealing with a very angry Fighter who has low will save and likely no ranks in sense motive and diplomacy). I would make it an opposed check against the opponent's level/hitdice if it's better than his sense motive, will save or diplomacy bonus. Also, heavy circumstance bonuses and penalties should apply.Realistically, the fighter's not a diplomat--he should lose. But the spellcaster with the high Will save or the guy who knows what you're thinking before you do... not so much.

Monk's Flurry--yeah, standard action. Thanks, nice catch.


This is absolutely unrealistic in combat situations. What happens if there's a TPK when one player is missing?Then I kick myself for failing as a DM. TPKs are not a good thing however you look at it (other than in campaign-ending pyrrhic victories).


Also, you may get a Druid player who wants to say his druid is a world traveler, or comes from The Tropical Island Of Extremely Badass Animals, or who writes out a full list of every animal his druid has ever seen. Such people can be dealt with by telling them that they should be reasonable, and you'll be the judge in cases where they aren't.Make a reflex save vs. Flying DMG.


There's the risk that the players will expect you to save them in case of need. I wouldn't like this.There's a random chance. I'm totally rolling for it, probably on percentiles. If a level 1 character is begging Pelor for a new war horse, I'll probably give it a 1% chance of happening and have Pelor be kind of miffed and insist on the fellow taking on a quest or something in exchange. Whereas, if we've got your basic level 15 devout cleric of Pelor out of spells and begging the god to heal his dying friend because he's the only one who can perform the ritual that'll save Townsville from the army of undead... that's got a higher chance, maybe an even fifty-fifty chance, though it's still likely that the cleric's going to take stat damage from being in direct contact with a god.

Pigkappa
2011-03-29, 05:20 PM
As a side note, allowing one wildshape form per rank of Knowledge (nature)

Very good idea imo. Could also work for knowledge (arcana) or spellcraft and polymorph, maybe.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-29, 05:37 PM
the typical logic behind allowing a rouge to sneak attack undead and constructs is that a undead and golem have weak points they might not be the same weaknesses as a living creature but their are points that are more vulnerable then others such as the joints on an iron golem or the head of a zombie.

Yeah, the idea of zombies not having a weak point in the form of "shoot it in the head" has always struck me as odd.

lightningcat
2011-03-29, 05:55 PM
•Druids must have encountered the animal in question to use its form for Wildshape. If the animal is common where your druid comes from (according to his backstory), it is available.


This is NOT a house rule. This is a rule.



The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.


Sorry, I get annoyed that everyone wants to ignore one of the few limits that RAW Wildshape has.

Tanngrisnir
2011-03-29, 09:28 PM
If you are not at a game, your character fades into the background and is assumed to be there, just unusually quiet.

I'm a fan of this. I have never seen the point in punishing someone when they can't make it to a session. That's not a friendly thing to do and goes against the spirit of the game for me. We always just have it that the character is still there and as a group decide what they would do, being careful to never put them in too much danger, take an action we don't believe their player would chose to do, or use any one time only items.

It works and its easy, and no one gets punished or annoyed.


Diplomacy is an opposed check rather than a flat DC. It may be opposed by Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or a Will save (whichever is highest)

I can't really remember the diplomacy rules but I'd be careful to ensure this doesn't mean that most enemy fighters can just be defeated by talking to them and making them see your point of view.

All in all, I'd be very happy playing under these rules, though I'd prefer going for the 'everyone levels at same time' thing, because I'm not a fan of parties with a range of character levels in them.

tyckspoon
2011-03-29, 09:42 PM
This is NOT a house rule. This is a rule.



Sorry, I get annoyed that everyone wants to ignore one of the few limits that RAW Wildshape has.

"Must have seen" is a house rule. Almost anything dealing with that or any other familiarity clause is a house rule, because there are no rules defining "familiarity." Do you have to have seen it once? Do you have to have reasonably detailed knowledge of it, as per an animal you have actually studied or perhaps owned as a pet? Is it enough to make a successful Knowledge check about it, even if you've never personally run into one? All of those are some level of familiarity, resulting in wildly varying levels of power for Wild Shape and similar abilities, and the books provide no guidance about just how much familiarity they meant.

Amnestic
2011-03-30, 11:43 AM
The party cannot have both Good and Evil characters in it simultaneously (I may approve exceptions if you explain how the party can make it work).

Eh, I think restricting their alignments is unnecessary. A simple "The party must be able to work together without undermining each other." (whatever that entails) works fine, I think. Evil characters can still be more than happy to work with Good characters for whatever reason, sometimes for something as simple as the heart of the cards Friendship. Not a bad rule - similar to one I use myself, but I think it's a step too far. *shrug* Your decision though, I understand why it's there considering some of the stories of players stabbing each other in the back and whatnot you hear on these forums.


When casting Calling, Summoning, and related spells, remember that your targets have independent lives and allies of their own. Abuse them, and they may retaliate.

Not much to say about this one other than "I recommend the Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonathan Stroud." :smalltongue:


Choose one Profession skill. This is your character’s job before he became an adventurer. You gain four free skill points at level one to put into that skill, and one point at every level thereafter.

I like this one and will probably use it myself.

Not much else to say about the rest, seem pretty decent all around.

grimbold
2011-03-30, 12:20 PM
overall these seem like reasonable rules
none of them are overly penalizing on the game
you may want to ban Gate and Genesis
in addition you may want to do more for your monk fix

dps
2011-03-30, 02:48 PM
I suggest rolling scores only be done at the table.


Absolutely. It's amazing how much better luck some players have when they are allowed to pre-roll their characters at home.

OTOH, I'm old-school--I think it should be roll 3D6, in order.

Cartigan
2011-03-30, 02:51 PM
OTOH, I'm old-school--I think it should be roll 3D6, in order.

They do that in 4e Gamma World. To aid in making joke characters primarily.

Skaven
2011-03-30, 04:13 PM
In regard to druids, I would advise the following if you're seriously anti-shapeshifting, since one of the worst offenders seems less affected. Anyhow, this is my houserule.. which I have not tested, since not of my players have chosen the druid class since I put them in. Not that these houserules affected that.. none of my players ever seem to want to play druids.

At level 5, Druids need to choose an aspect of nature to focus on. At this level and after this level, only the class feature chosen will increase.

1, One with nature: Druid gains wildshape as a class feature. Gains EX abilities of forms assumed and the extra wildshape feat. Spellcasting and animal companion does not increase after this level.

2, Force of nature: Druid continues gaining spellcasting. Does not gain wildshape, animal companion ceases to grow more powerful.

3, Friend of nature: Druids animal companion continues to grow more powerful. Spellcasting does not increase and wildshape is not gained. (This one might need some limited access to the animal companion buffs at the levels they normally become available.)

Callista
2011-03-30, 04:17 PM
Interesting. I think it's a bit overdoing it as a druid fix, but why don't you write it up as a druid variant over on the homebrew board? I like the idea of a druid class with different paths you might be able to take. I think slowing down rather than completely stopping the spellcasting might be a better idea, though--maybe every other level or so.

aquaticrna
2011-03-30, 04:32 PM
I think eliminating 2/3 of the druids most interesting class features is a little much, i'd find it more interesting if the other two advanced more slowly or something... the flavor is nice, maybe the other two paths only give you access to certain spells? the friend of nature one could give continued access to summoning and ally buffing spells while the one with nature path gives access to self buffs, and force of nature is everything else?

Kylarra
2011-03-30, 04:55 PM
I'm always a bit eh at seeing the druid hit firmly with the nerfbat when the other T1 classes are left more or less untouched. As far as T1 classes go, Druid is probably one of the weaker ones, although it seems to get hit by the nerfbat the most often as it has actual class features to target.

One thing I might throw out there is to add more skills/lvl to classes and put search/spot/listen onto more lists.

awa
2011-03-30, 05:06 PM
part of the druids problem is how its nearly idiot proof. Ive seen plenty of level 10ish Sorcerers (i know sorcerers arnt wizards but they would have made the same mistake with a wizard) who just blasted and conserved their spells to much and were therefore ineffective and heal bot clerics that almost only memorized the cure line.
but druids even if they forget to cast entirely will still contribute and mabey even dominate just by turning into a bear and fighting alongside a bear

Callista
2011-03-30, 06:25 PM
I don't see why that's a problem. That makes the druid pretty good for a player just starting out; when they have more experience, they can try a wizard.

A sorcerer-like caster druid might be a useful addition to the array of homebrew classes, though. It would allow the druid's magic into lower-powered games. Just have Wildshape use up a spell slot.

The Glyphstone
2011-03-30, 06:28 PM
The only thing I'd find questionable is the fighter feats. Fighters don't need more feats (particularly if they're limited to core, and even if they're not), they need actual class features.

Callista
2011-03-30, 06:39 PM
Fighters are not limited to core; only required to have non-core approved. I really just put that in there because I haven't got very many D&D books, and I want to know what a feat is before someone uses it. There are a few truly broken things out there, and without all the books, there's no way I'll track them all down. So the obvious solution is just to have people show me the non-core stuff they're using before they use it.

The Glyphstone
2011-03-30, 07:08 PM
Still, it doesn't make fighters any more interesting or fun to play, it just gives them more plusses. It turns Fighter into the ultimate dip class - any full-melee class will just take another Fighter level anytime they need a feat, or plan for Fighter levels equal to the feats they need.

awa
2011-03-30, 07:36 PM
the thing is rebuilding the fighter from the ground up is a lot of work. giving them extra feats is easy. will it solve the problem, no but now the fighter can specialize it more than one thing at a time (at a level where that might still be relevant) besides the fighter was already an excellent dip class if you just need an extra feat you would need to be level 3 to get more feats out of it than it normally gave you anyway

Rixx
2011-03-30, 07:53 PM
Pathfinder has a very nice fighter fix - it makes them an attractive option by giving them class features that other classes don't (such as armor training, which lets them move full speed in medium and eventually heavy armor)

Toofey
2011-03-30, 09:41 PM
the only part of this I don't like are you spell restrictions It seems like you just dont want to let people shapeshift at all.

Also disjunction is way fun for the dm.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-30, 10:10 PM
I'm always a bit eh at seeing the druid hit firmly with the nerfbat when the other T1 classes are left more or less untouched. As far as T1 classes go, Druid is probably one of the weaker ones, although it seems to get hit by the nerfbat the most often as it has actual class features to target.

One thing I might throw out there is to add more skills/lvl to classes and put search/spot/listen onto more lists.

Mostly because you can hack off casting, the companion, or wildshape (though 2/3 seems like a bit much) and still have a pretty respectable class. Also because there are fewer things (and less commonly seen things) to ban. Venomfire, Fleshrakers, Planar Shepherd, and Greenbound Summoning don't seem to see nearly as much use in practice as DMM, Incantatrix, and other things the other T1 classes use, so players are less likely to be upset when they're banned.

Kylarra
2011-03-30, 10:32 PM
Mostly because you can hack off casting, the companion, or wildshape (though 2/3 seems like a bit much) and still have a pretty respectable class. Also because there are fewer things (and less commonly seen things) to ban. Venomfire, Fleshrakers, Planar Shepherd, and Greenbound Summoning don't seem to see nearly as much use in practice as DMM, Incantatrix, and other things the other T1 classes use, so players are less likely to be upset when they're banned.Like I said, actual class features to target. IME, Druids tend to be the lowest of the T1 classes. Sure they're fullcasters and also beatsticks, but their fullcasting tends to be self-buffs to enhance their beatstickery. How did that comic go? Oh yeah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6869495&postcount=108).

stainboy
2011-03-31, 01:02 AM
Overall this is a fair and reasonable set of house rules.



* 4d6, drop lowest, arrange in any order. If you don’t like your scores, you may choose to use 32 point buy instead.
Nothing wrong with this, but all of your players will do point buy unless someone is fantastically lucky. 4d6 drop lowest averages about the same as 21 point buy.


* The following spells do not exist (are not available to either PCs or NPCs): Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Why Alter Self? I get all the others, but Alter Self isn't too bad as long as the caster is humanoid. You could just say the new form always has to be humanoid, which keeps elans and tieflings from using it as a 2nd-level Polymorph.


* The Monk gets full BAB; Flurry of Blows is a standard action.
Including the iteratives, or just the attacks at the highest bonus? (Do you also allow dualwielding on a standard action? I don't think you mentioned it.)


* Sneak Attack now works on Undead and Constructs.
Every time a DM makes this rule an angel gets its wings.


* Diplomacy is an opposed check rather than a flat DC. It may be opposed by Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or a Will save (whichever is highest).
A character with maxed diplomacy will still outscale the DC most of the time. Will save doesn't go up 1/level, most people don't have maxed Diplomacy or Sense Motive, and even if they do they'll likely be lower level than the party. You'll still have to Rule 0 the hell out of diplomacy if the PCs use it, so you might as well just say that.


o The Barbarian may not be Lawful, but can be neutral.
This is true by RAW.

Tavar
2011-03-31, 01:13 AM
Personally, bump alter self up to 4th level, and polymorph up to 8/9th level, and you should be good.

Tanngrisnir
2011-03-31, 01:48 AM
I'd also up the amount of skill points fighters get, probably to 4 per level plus int, and open the skill selection up too. It has never made sense to me that a fighter with a military background is no good at listening or spotting, when they could easily have spent time as a guard where those skills are pretty important.

awa
2011-03-31, 06:28 AM
barbarians dont get spot eith
Its actually pretty easy to get better than a 32 point buy all you need is a couple of very high rolls because higher stats costs more per point just using averages does not work as well

hewhosaysfish
2011-03-31, 07:03 AM
the only part of this I don't like are you spell restrictions It seems like you just dont want to let people shapeshift at all.


Presumably characters who want to shapeshift will use one of the more specific non-core spells: Beast Form, Plant Form, Dragon Form, etc. rather than casting Whatever-I-Want-I'll-Decide-Later Form.

LansXero
2011-03-31, 07:49 AM
4d6, drop lowest, arrange in any order. If you don’t like your scores, you may choose to use 32 point buy instead.

I use that (I wasnt aware it was a houserule) with the exception that I let them have 7 rolls, and drop the lowest of them as well.


All non-core class features, items, etc. must be approved. (They probably will be. I just need to see them first, especially if I don’t have that book.)

I think having a photocopy of the relevant bits for you to store away could be useful; when someone wants to use something from a book I dont have, I ask them to print a copy (if its from a web enhancement or something) or produce a photocopy. Easier to carry around than a full-sized book.


Get me an up-to-date copy of your character sheet when you level.

You could try keeping them in an excel like: this (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2739526/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons/GamezonePCs.xls)


We are not using massive damage rules.
There is no XP penalty for multiclassing.
Weeee


Druids must have encountered the animal in question to use its form for Wildshape. If the animal is common where your druid comes from (according to his backstory), it is available.

I assume you have explained your players where their characters may come from or a general outline of your setting, if its not a published one, in case they come from a frigid climate and you are running a desert game or something like that.


Sneak Attack now works on Undead and Constructs.
I disagree with this as a flat-out rule; requiring either ranks in the relevant knowledges (not like rogues are hurting for skill points) or reducing the damage somewhat (either by giving undead/constructs light fortification or -xd6 like the feats that normally allow this) would be better.


Any character who would lose class powers due to alignment change gains Knowledge(Religion) as a class skill. Knowledge(Religion) checks may be made to determine what your character’s belief system says about a potential decision.
This may bog you down a bit if they start second-guessing every decision with checks; they could abuse it as a system detector. Would be better if you could talk a bit with those players and agree on what constitutes an evil/good/chaotic/lawful act within the parameters of the game. Then again, that would maybe take even longer.



Changing alignments is a sign of character development, not a punishment.

Maybe track their progress along something like this (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2739526/Algiment.jpg)?


If you want to rebuild your character, show me the changes first. I may directly ask you to rebuild your character if they are too far below the average power level of the party.
Too far above too, right?


Good role-play awards more XP than just killing things. Avoiding a fight or negotiating a truce awards the same amount of XP as winning it. By group consensus, we may choose to do away with XP altogether and just level up periodically (in which case item-crafters will use crafting points).
Be careful of people trying to hog the spotlight to gain more roleplaying XP. Or shy quiet types lagging behind because they dont want to actively seek RP oportunities.


If a rules loophole is discovered that allows an overpowered action, it works the first time, but it's a fluke and never happens again. If you are trying something truly broken, I reserve the right to throw my DMG at you.
You shouldnt let it work the first time either, specially if it ends up hurting a PC or ruining the campaign premise.


Depending on who the deity is, they may also make demands/requests of your character in return.
Careful to bog them down in sidequests due to a couple lucky %dice rolls.



If you have a problem, talk about it rather than blowing up or gossiping.
Anyone who is abusive to anyone else will be summarily kicked out of the game.

Weeee. Although Id add abusive with other people's things / the house you are playing at / etc. But its clear enough, I guess.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-31, 08:28 AM
Still, it doesn't make fighters any more interesting or fun to play, it just gives them more plusses. It turns Fighter into the ultimate dip class - any full-melee class will just take another Fighter level anytime they need a feat, or plan for Fighter levels equal to the feats they need.

See, the thing is...I'm ok with that. Not every class needs to be something that is worth taking 20 straight levels of...it just needs to be useful.

Now, having only two levels be useful in any circumstance is a bit weak...but making it so variable builds will use variable amounts of it? Not bad at all.

Tossing a few more skill points at them wouldn't go amiss, either.

big teej
2011-03-31, 09:14 AM
none of these stuck out as glaringly obviously bad.

however, I do wonder.

group creation aside,

do you trust your players to make characters on their own? unsupervised? (say backup characters for instance?)

aside from that little question this actually sounds fairly similar to what we do.

I'd play in a game with these rules

Cartigan
2011-03-31, 09:27 AM
Also disjunction is way fun for the dm.
If by "fun," you mean "TPK." That's how Age of Worms ended - the DM gave the Dracolich Mage's Disjunction to counter the party munchkin and the whole group got completely wiped.

That made me make a special note to prepare a contingency Anti-magic Field in the future of the game I'm in (if I live that long) in order to attempt to counter any potential disjuncting.


Personally, bump alter self up to 4th level, and polymorph up to 8/9th level, and you should be good.

That' doesn't fix anything. Alter Self is only broken when used by characters that aren't Humanoid, so bumping it up either doesn't fix it or makes it crappier. And bumping polymorph up that high does nothing either.

Use Pathfinder's Polymorph school fix - you get bonuses to Str/Con/Dex when shaped but the creature's Str/Dex/Con does NOT replace yours.
And I don't see how you can get rid of those yet not modify Druid's Wildshape.

Fiery Diamond
2011-04-01, 12:36 AM
Alter Self invalidates non-magical disguise. It doesn't have to grant abilities to be broken. It is overpowered (especially for its level) even for humanoids.

On topic, I used similar rules. Good job.

Tavar
2011-04-01, 12:43 AM
Non-humaniod forms make up the worst of the abuse, but humanoid forms can be plenty bad and versatile enough. From what I've seen, it's about as useful as other 4th level spells, so that's where it should go.

stainboy
2011-04-01, 01:35 AM
Alter Self invalidates non-magical disguise. It doesn't have to grant abilities to be broken. It is overpowered (especially for its level) even for humanoids.


Alter Self and Disguise Self still use the Disguise skill, and don't provide a big enough bonus to make ranks in Disguise useless. And it's not like those are wizard-only spells. Getting at least Disguise Self on a skillmonkey is easy (just not a single-classed rogue, unless you're in Eberron).

Anyway, if you want to ban every spell that invalidates a skill, you might as well ban every caster class except Warmage. And even they're on thin ice because because shooting energy rays for more than 1d6 damage invalidates Craft (Alchemy).

ericgrau
2011-04-01, 01:50 AM
Single classed rogues can use disguise self quite cheaply with a hat of disguise or UMD. Banning the polymorph line is fine primarily because it's non-essential, complicated and game slowing. So even before we decide if it's balanced or not I can say if the OP wants to ban it that's totally fine.

Character Creation
32 point buy is much better than 4d6 drop lowest. Most players will switch. Nice character creation rules otherwise.

Rules Changes

Not gonna get into the monk debate :P.
I don't think you realize how nuts the fighter will be with those feats. Unless you limit his selection so he's forced to pick oddball versatility feats, it's easy to stack a million bonuses. I should know because last campaign I played I got the unaltered fighter banned (!) in a moderately optimized group. Unless you're in a high optimization group giving him these is a Bad Idea. Try a minor boost if your players need a power incentive or ignore the class if nobody likes it. I mean you could do a flavor boost if nobody likes it but it's not worth the trouble to get it right when people could simply play something else.
The diplomacy changes won't really do anything because most people's diplomacy modifier will far exceed 95% of monsters' unless all of them focus on defending against it, which is really nothing more than skill point tax. Better to just say no to players using diplomacy for things other than diplomacy. Or try something else.

Otherwise the changes are fine.

Alignment System
Ok, fine.

Rebuilding your Character, Other Stuff
Good ideas.

Toofey
2011-04-01, 02:28 PM
Alter Self and Disguise Self still use the Disguise skill, and don't provide a big enough bonus to make ranks in Disguise useless. And it's not like those are wizard-only spells. Getting at least Disguise Self on a skillmonkey is easy (just not a single-classed rogue, unless you're in Eberron).

Anyway, if you want to ban every spell that invalidates a skill, you might as well ban every caster class except Warmage. And even they're on thin ice because because shooting energy rays for more than 1d6 damage invalidates Craft (Alchemy).

Can't see through a disguise made with the proficiency with magic. Magic will instantly see through or call into question an alter self.

Even if it performed identically to the proficiency requiring a spell slot and therefore only being usable X times a day, as vs anytime one wants to make a check, balances it out pretty nicely to me.

Cartigan
2011-04-01, 02:42 PM
Alter Self invalidates non-magical disguise. It doesn't have to grant abilities to be broken. It is overpowered (especially for its level) even for humanoids.

On topic, I used similar rules. Good job.
Oh no, characters who can manipulate reality don't need the Disguise skill! I demand NERFS!

Ridiculous.

Tavar
2011-04-01, 02:58 PM
And that, my friends, is reductio ad absurdum. He's not saying that the ability should never exists. He's saying that the ability is to strong for it's level. For example, an attack that does 10d6 damage at first level is way to powerful. One that does 10d6 damage at 20th level...isn't.

Plus, that's not all of the abuse it has.

Cartigan
2011-04-01, 03:10 PM
And that, my friends, is reductio ad absurdum. He's not saying that the ability should never exists. He's saying that the ability is to strong for it's level. For example, an attack that does 10d6 damage at first level is way to powerful. One that does 10d6 damage at 20th level...isn't.

Plus, that's not all of the abuse it has.

Reductio ad absurdum is not automatically a logical fallacy. Alter Self being able to replace the mundane Disguise neither makes it broken nor more powerful than it should be for its level. Alter Self only becomes broken when taking non-human races. And then it is only broken because the polymorph school is broken in 3.5.

Amnestic
2011-04-01, 03:17 PM
Alter Self being able to replace the mundane Disguise neither makes it broken nor more powerful than it should be for its level.

Being able to replace an entire skill with a single 2nd level spell isn't broken? :smallconfused:

Tyndmyr
2011-04-01, 03:23 PM
Being able to replace an entire skill with a single 2nd level spell isn't broken? :smallconfused:

Knock would like to have a word with you.

Cartigan
2011-04-01, 03:30 PM
Knock would like to have a word with you.

As well as Jump, Silence, Invisibility, Charm Animal, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Snares & Pits, every spell that involves healing, etc, etc.

And those are just 2nd level or below core spells.

Toofey
2011-04-01, 03:34 PM
I really think the argument that 2nd level spells are broken because they can replicate abilities ignores the implications of the limited number of uses per day. If anything an ability that with no cost can duplicate the effects of a 2nd level as many times per day as the user wants seems way more broken to me than a 2nd level spell that can duplicate a single use of an ability.

Amnestic
2011-04-01, 03:43 PM
And those are just 2nd level or below core spells.

That makes it totally not broken guys. See, because other spells perfectly replicate other class features and do them better too, Alter Self is perfectly balanced as a 2nd level spell.

Talakeal
2011-04-01, 03:50 PM
These look good except for one point. You use an objective system of good and evil, and do not allow players to play mixed alignment parties. Isn't this a way of saying "If you do not act how I think you should act in a given situation, I am kicking you out of the game"?

Cartigan
2011-04-01, 03:56 PM
That makes it totally not broken guys. See, because other spells perfectly replicate other class features and do them better too, Alter Self is perfectly balanced as a 2nd level spell.

Yes, it DOES make it not broken. Magic being significantly more powerful than every mundane thing ever does not make spells that replace skills inherently broken.

Alter Self is not remotely broken in context when not performed by a non-human. Congratulations, you can perfectly disguise yourself as some one else 18 hours a day at level 20 (and perform no other 2nd level spells). Would you like a cookie?

The Glyphstone
2011-04-01, 04:24 PM
It's worth pointing out that even Alter Self only adds a +10 to the Disguise check, people. If you don't have ranks in Disguise and/or a positive Charisma mod, you're miles away from 'automatically replacing the skill'.

stainboy
2011-04-01, 04:31 PM
And anyway, Disguise Self or Alter Self is only a +10 bonus to Disguise checks. That's not that big after a few levels, and it mostly gets eaten up by familiarity penalties.

There are a lot of potential penalties to Disguise checks and it's opposed by Spot (something tons of monsters have). That +10 bonus enables the Disguise skill. It doesn't replace it.

E: Ghost-step Sudden Striked.

ericgrau
2011-04-01, 09:52 PM
Being able to replace an entire skill with a single 2nd level spell isn't broken? :smallconfused:

Is this still going on? A hat of disguise is only 1800 gp and anyone can use it regardless of class. In fact those with disguise as a class skill and the hat are far better off than those who can cast the spell and don't have the class skill. Heck, most of the time the spell is so weak it isn't worth preparing. Likewise for knock. I'm not sure how this is related to the original topic so I'll stop there. If it's supposed to be a suggestion for more house rules then it seems like adding needless complication. Better to shorten lists than to pile on more things that, AFAIK, the OP didn't even ask for.