Warhammer 40K Tabletop XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has room for!" [Archive]

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Cheesegear

2011-03-29, 09:07 PM

New thread time!

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Cheesegear presents Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).

Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;
Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
Vehicles and You (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8118712&postcount=1011).
Cheesegear's Speaking Of Tournaments.... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8301600&postcount=42) General themes to consider when attending a competitive arena.
To Tailor Your List Or Not To Tailor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10373704&postcount=571)

Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting and Assembling an Army (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Closet_Skeleton says:
"Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."

How To Write An Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358) | Sample (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8713541&postcount=1393)

Should you buy a Battleforce? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8821178&postcount=299) In most cases, yes.

Guide to Armies
Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):
Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7733811&postcount=990)

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. *
Black Templars: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8100822&postcount=940) Outdated Codex. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8450662&postcount=510) Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
Blood Angels: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8391413&postcount=357) The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

If you don't understand just what it is that makes these Chapters unique as opposed Codex Marines (read their respective Codecies), or you don't like or don't plan on using what makes them unique; You're better off sticking to Codex Marines. You can still paint your Space Marines as Blood Angels and use Codex Marines.

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):
Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
**** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
**** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):
If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

Eldar:
Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Dark Eldar (DE):
Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different.
Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either. The Dark Eldar Lord (home of the 2+ Invulnerable Save) and Incubi retinue is one of the single-deadliest close combat units in the game (the only one better this author can think of is Necron Pariahs). Wyches are also very good.
The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
In the hands of someone who has played Dark Eldar a long time, the army is staggeringly effective.

Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff :smallwink:). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.
A lot of the models are old and/or 'not very pretty'. However, some people don't mind that they're 'not pretty', because they're Dark Eldar. They're not supposed to be attractive like 'good' Eldar.
Old Codex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the 3rd Ed. Dark Eldar Codex still stands up against recent 5th Ed. Codecies. It isn't bad...Just...Old. And it may or may not be missing out on some fun toys that the other races have been getting.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6). If you don't like the models, you can always take regular Eldar, add spikes and make some really awesome conversions. But, doing this is hard.

Necrons:
Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons.
Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese! (http://tsoalr.com/?p=361)
Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.

Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
(Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).

Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
* if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
**** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.

Tau:
With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)
Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.

Daemonhunters and Grey Knights (DHs, GKs): **

Codex: Daemonhunters is unusual, in that it technically offers you two different armies to play with, as well as the option to blend them together to make a third. Essentially, you're given some of the best things available to Space Marines and Imperial Guard Armies, and have them led by a powerful psyker and his cadre of Imperial Operatives and minions in the name of the Emperor's finest hand-picked soldiers.

Pros: The first thing that should be said about a Daemonhunters Army is that the quality of the models available, while narrow, is some of the finest available on a 40k battlefield. Very few forces can offer the sort of attention to detail and thematic consistency as a full contingent of the Adeptus Malleus.
The fact that you are given instructions for at least 2 different armies to play is also a nice bonus. On the one hand, you have "Imperial Guard-lite"; Storm Troopers riding around in Chimera, holding the line while your Inquisitor Lord directs highly trained Assassins to neutralise specific important targets.
On the other hand, you get the Grey Knights which are all the best things about ordinary Space Marines - like Terminator Armour, Land Raiders and impressive statlines - turned up to 11 with special abilities and exquisite new equipment to make a terrifyingly powerful Close Combat-orientated (though certainly not exclusive) army. Mix and match the two for a more balanced approach, or take even more Allies from your ordinary Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Space Marines to create one of the few Tournament-legal allied forces.
Codex: Daemonhunters offers you a variety of themes and opportunities to use for free, that other Armies usually have to get by spending precious points on Special Characters.

And to top it all off, the Codex is absolutely free to own! Yes, legally! You can get a copy all for your very own from the GW website, and it won't cost you a penny.

Cons: See all that really good stuff I listed above? About elite equipment, powerful soldiers and copious special abilities? Well, you're going to pay through the nose for them in every sense of the phrase.
The gorgeous models are almost entirely a metal range, putting even a medium sized army out of reach of most hobbiests. It also doesn't help that the Codex itself has been discontinued by GW, so chances are you'll be spending a lot of time awaiting your troops to arrive by Mail Order, which is yet another expense to bare in mind.
Assuming that you actually have the models you need to play with, you might find yourself shocked by how few of them there are compared to other armies. Though Grey Knights are the worst offenders, virtually all units in the Codex are more expensive than their C:IG and C:SM counterparts, and it's entirely possible to play a legal, competitive 1500 point army with around 20 models in it.
Thirdly, Codex: Daemonhunters was first published in 2002, and a lot has happened in the last 8 years. A number of the special rules and wargear options that you're choosing from have become incredibly weak due to changes to the Main Rules and other Codices, and those which aren't weakened are often made completely obsolete. For example, any Psychic Power referring to a Daemonic Instability Test? Yeah, you won't be needing that - those tests don't even exist any more, and it was very much a one-trick pony at the best of times.

More specifically, the Daemonhunters Special Characters suck.
Seriously - there's only two of them, and even comparing them to units available in the own Codex, let alone the SC's belonging to other armies, make you wonder why you would bother.
The Daemonhunter special character has an embarrassing statline and only 1 of his 2 psychic powers actually does anything, whereas the Grey Knight special character lacks all of the rules that actually makes him a 'proper' Grey Knight, and his only other special ability benefits your opponent as much as it does you in a very literal sense.
While special characters should be an interesting and characterful addition to an army, Codex: Daemonhunters tosses them in like an afterthought, robbing the player of the sort of storytelling grandeur that other armies take for granted.

Recommendation for Newbies: * or **
A pure Grey Knight Army is arguably one of the trickiest and most difficult army to use in Warhammer 40,000 - every casualty is a massive set back and your plans have to go off perfectly, for even the slightest mistake will leave you crippled in an instant. A pure Daemonhunter army will fare slightly better (hence the optional ** rating) but both armies can be done much better, more cheaply, by an ordinary Imperial Guard or Space Marine Army with an appropriate paint job. Heck, at least their Codices actually work properly!
If that doesn't deter you, however, a Codex: Daemonhunters army will undoubtedly be the crowning jewel in your wargaming collection. It will look fantastic, it will make a satisfyingly loud *THUNK* when you put it on the table, and the bragging rights available for actually winning a game with such a beast will be unrivaled by any other army choice.
Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters.
Imperial Guard Tanks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8434669&postcount=476).

Still to come;
Imperial Guard, Witch Hunters and Orks.
These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

---

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333&highlight=Warhammer)
* Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984&highlight=Warhammer)
* Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538&highlight=Warhammer)
* Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084&highlight=Warhammer)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779&highlight=Warhammer)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)

GallóglachMaxim

2011-03-29, 09:51 PM

Huzzah, new thread.

I'm working on a guard list for a tournament over the Easter weekend, 1500 points, five games. The tournament has its own missions, four of which require scoring units, one uses kill points.

HQ
Lord Commissar - (70)

Elites
Guardsman Marbo - (65)

Troops
Infantry Platoon (310)
>Platoon Command Squad - (60)
2x Grenade Launcher, Power Fist, Vox

>Squad 1 - (65)
Autocannon, Vox

>Squad 2 - (60)
Autocannon

>Squad 3 - (65)
Autocannon, Vox

>Squad 4 - (60)
Autocannon

Veteran Squad - (125)
Autocannon, 3x Sniper Rifle, Forward Sentries

Veteran Squad - (165)
Gunnery Sergeant Harker, 2x Meltagun, Demolitions, 7x Shotgun

Veteran Squad - (125)
Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Forward Sentries

Veteran Squad - (125)
Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Forward Sentries

Veteran Squad - (100)
Power Fist, 3x Grenade Launcher

Fast Attack
Valkyrie Assault Carrier -(115)
Lascannon

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank - (150)

Leman Russ Battle Tank - (150)

Alternatives that I have available
Psyker battle squad, spare special weapon troopers, chimera, a few spare heavy weapon teams (missiles, lascannon) and enough spare guardsmen/officers for two command squads

Edit: taking the specific points out of the list. List now internet-appropriate

Zorg

2011-03-29, 11:25 PM

In more Phantom Titan news:

Phantom Titan Pricing Update

With the very first Phantom Titans being boxed up for the Forge World Open Day at Warhammer World this weekend, we can now confirm that the Titan body will be £350 ($578), while the D-Cannon and Pulsar weapon options will be £50 ($83) each.
We will have a limited number available at the Forge World Open Day, and AdeptiCon attendees will be able to advance order the mighty Phantom Titan for despatch well in advance of the pre-order date for this magnificent kit.

Cheaper than a Reaver! Definately getting one now :smallbiggrin:

Ricky S

2011-03-30, 01:13 AM

In more Phantom Titan news:

Cheaper than a Reaver! Definately getting one now :smallbiggrin:

Ah, but is it better than a reaver?

Cheesegear

2011-03-30, 03:42 AM

I'm working on a guard list for a tournament over the Easter weekend, 1500 points, five games. The tournament has its own missions, four of which require scoring units, one uses kill points.

Special missions? Any idea of what they are? Is it crap like "If you have units in your opposing DZ, get extra points.", because stuff like that means MOAR MECHANISED, and MOAR DEEP STRIKES. In any case, I'll just go with your list as-is before I go breaking the tournament format.

Lord Commissar - (70)

Yes.

Guardsman Marbo - (65)

No. He works great in low point games when taking out that tank, or brick unit pretty much means game, later on though, not so much. And especially not without a Telepathic Relay.

Primaris Psykers are fun. I'll see how many points I can leak out of the whole list before I go putting units in.

Infantry Platoon (310)
>Platoon Command Squad - (60)
2x Grenade Launcher, Power Fist, Vox

Lose the Power Fist. If your Command Squad is in Assault, you've already lost.

>Squad 1 - (65)
Autocannon, Vox

>Squad 2 - (60)
Autocannon

>Squad 3 - (65)
Autocannon, Vox

>Squad 4 - (60)
Autocannon

Can't see any reason why not.

Veteran Squad - (125)
Autocannon, 3x Sniper Rifle, Forward Sentries

Forward Sentries gain you nothing. The Autocannon and Rifles work fine wherever they are on the board. Break this unit up to afford Plasmaguns on all your units above, or go with Ratlings, or something. Or just lose Forward Sentries. I'm unclear about what you want to do with this squad.

If you want to maximise Pinning (you've got Rifles, so you should), go with a Mortar.

Veteran Squad - (165)
Gunnery Sergeant Harker, 2x Meltagun, Demolitions, 7x Shotgun

BANANAS. B-A-N-A-N-A-S. This s* is bananas.

Veteran Squad - (125)
Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Forward Sentries

Veteran Squad - (125)
Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Forward Sentries

Once again, I don't see the point of Forward Sentries. And the lack of trip-weapons on Veterans saddens me. Don't really see why these squads aren't MOAR INFANTRY. There's easily enough to fit in points for a Command Squad with a few points left over I believe.

Veteran Squad - (100)
Power Fist, 3x Grenade Launcher

I...Guess...??
Goes in the Valkyrie, yes? Meltaguns are better if that's the case.

Valkyrie Assault Carrier -(115)
Lascannon

No Large Blast Defensive Rocket Pods? O...Kay...

Leman Russ Battle Tank - (150)

Leman Russ Battle Tank - (150)

<3. Although the lack of Chimeras and 'not enough' Gunships will probably get these guys targeted down pretty fast.

Mostly, the problems in the list stem from Forward Sentries and Veterans being Veterans when they're not doing what Veterans do, and standing around trying to be expensive Infantry Squads.

Marbo, I don't like. Really, it depends on your opponent's list on how good he is. Against the Twilight Marines he's not going to have a whole lot to do since the 'best' versions of both red and blue lists have a lot of redundancy.

Tome

2011-03-30, 03:42 AM

Ah, but is it better than a reaver?

It is, according to the blurb for it, the most powerful model currently available. So probably.

banjo1985

2011-03-30, 04:07 AM

You are an Ork player, aren't you?

Of course, but only very recently and I've only played a couple of games with them, thus the request for advice. :smalltongue:
Buggies are still god-awful models, and I don't have the ability to cobble my own version together. Well, I do, but it would probably look like a mechanised parsnip.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-03-30, 05:28 AM

Ogremindes

2011-03-30, 05:48 AM

I've seen some pretty neat buggies on the 'net based on deff koptas.

Renegade Paladin

2011-03-30, 06:00 AM

The more cobbled together an Ork vehicle is, the better. :smallamused:

Tome

2011-03-30, 07:14 AM

Of course, but only very recently and I've only played a couple of games with them, thus the request for advice. :smalltongue:
Buggies are still god-awful models, and I don't have the ability to cobble my own version together. Well, I do, but it would probably look like a mechanised parsnip.

They're Orks. A mechanised parsnip is totally appropriate for them. Worst comes to worst, buy some cool models from other armies and stick bitz on them until they look sufficiently Orky.

That aside, I'm thinking of starting a Grey Knights army soon. Thing is, I absolutely detest models in power armour. But as much as I hate power armour, I love models in Terminator armour, which is why I'm thinking of starting Grey Knights (or possibly Space Wolves, if they'd work better for an all-Terminator army). What would the best way to build such an army be? Currently I'm thinking a Librarian with The Summoning and a Teleport Homer in a Stormraven would be a good way to get the rest of the army into assault range, but I'm not so sure how that would work in practice. Anyone got any advice on this?

Incomp

2011-03-30, 10:39 AM

Well, I do, but it would probably look like a mechanised parsnip.

Something like this?
http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/ac125/Incomp_DM/parsnip100.jpg?t=1301499515

Cheesegear

2011-03-30, 10:44 AM

But as much as I hate power armour, I love models in Terminator armour, which is why I'm thinking of starting Grey Knights (or possibly Space Wolves, if they'd work better for an all-Terminator army). What would the best way to build such an army be? Currently I'm thinking a Librarian with The Summoning and a Teleport Homer in a Stormraven would be a good way to get the rest of the army into assault range, but I'm not so sure how that would work in practice. Anyone got any advice on this?

Grab your FAQ to fix the Codex. Run Dark Angels. Hammers and Cyclones.

Tarinaky

2011-03-30, 10:51 AM

Something like this?

Dude, did you smoke all of Matt Ward's stash?

Hootman

2011-03-30, 11:06 AM

The multi-meltas on the servitors don't synergise with the conversion beamer at all. Conversion beamers work best on bikes.
[...]
Never take a dual heavy flamer regular dread when you can have dual heavy flamer iron clads. Regular dreads are for shooting at long range.
[...]
Hunter killers on iron clads are a fun idea but overkill and overpointed in practice.

I have taken as many of your suggestions as I could, and pumped out a modified version of this list for 2000 points. However, I am curious about your first point that I quoted, that Beamers are anti-bike. How does that work?

HQ
Master of the Forge 155
- Conversion Beamer, Bike

TROOPS
Scouts 10 190
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Sergeant Telion

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 10 170
- CCW & Pistol, Powerfist, Meltabombs

Scouts 5 105
- CCW & Pistol, Powerweapon, Combi-melta, Meltabombs
- Embarked on Land Speeder Storm (below)

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder Storm 60pts
- Heavy Flamer

ELITES & HEAVY SUPPORT
Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Venerable Dreadnought 220pts
- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Dreadnought 125pts
- Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

TOTAL: 1995 pts

Thoughts, anyone?

EDIT: As per the suggestions below, I have exchanged the MotF's Servitor wound-sinks for a Space Marine Bike. I am now considering trading one unit of Snipers for a unit of Scout Bikers (probably with Astartes Grenage Launchers) that can alternate between protecting the MotF and harrying goddang everything. Does anyone here ever use Scout Bikers, and are they worth it?

Zorg

2011-03-30, 12:29 PM

Ah, but is it better than a reaver?

Time will tell, but just look how freaking cool it is! :smallbiggrin:

Something like this?

Two points: Needs more dakka. Needs more choppa.

But otherwise a good start :smallwink:

I have taken as many of your suggestions as I could, and pumped out a modified version of this list for 2000 points. However, I am curious about your first point that I quoted, that Beamers are anti-bike. How does that work?

He means they work best when the MotF is riding a bike. Bikes give Relentless, so the MotF can move and shoot his Beamer (and another gun due to having multiple wounds). Beamers work best at long range, so the MotF has the mobility to stay far away from the enemy, shooting all the while.

HQ
Master of the Forge 160
- Converstion Beamer
- Servitors 3

TROOPS
Scouts 10 190
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Sergeant Telion

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 10 160
- CCW & Pistol, Powerweapon, Meltabombs

Scouts 5 115
- CCW & Pistol, Powerfist, Combi-melta, Meltabombs
- Embarked on Land Speeder Storm (below)

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder Storm 60pts
- Heavy Flamer

ELITES & HEAVY SUPPORT
Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Venerable Dreadnought 220pts
- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Dreadnought 125pts
- Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

TOTAL: 2000 pts

Thoughts, anyone?

Not sure about the CC weapon scout squads, namely I'd give the 10 man the fist and the Storm squad the PW - if you're assaulting anything with 5 scouts you don't want to need a fist.
Meltabombs, yes (I've had success with a Storm lurking backfield to strike out and bomb a Land Raider or the like), but 5 scouts will die horribly against anything that's going to need S8 to take down.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-03-30, 12:38 PM

If you want a conversion beamer dump the servitors on the master of the forge or give them plasma cannons. Probably dump them, since the bike doesn't work well with the plasma cannons.

Hawkfrost000

2011-03-30, 12:41 PM

(new thread happy dance)

Then apologizes for having nothing to contribute:smallfrown:

DM

Hootman

2011-03-30, 12:45 PM

He means they work best when the MotF is riding a bike. Bikes give Relentless, so the MotF can move and shoot his Beamer (and another gun due to having multiple wounds). Beamers work best at long range, so the MotF has the mobility to stay far away from the enemy, shooting all the while.

They can ride bikes? o.O *flips frantically through Codex* HOLYEMPERORTHEYCANYESYESYESYESYES. SOLD!

Not sure about the CC weapon scout squads, namely I'd give the 10 man the fist and the Storm squad the PW - if you're assaulting anything with 5 scouts you don't want to need a fist.

Since I gave both of those squads Meltabombs, that is a very good point! It seems much more efficient to put the Fist with the larger unit, giving the Fist more padding and (ideally) striking with another 15 attacks to weaken the foe before it can counter.

I will edit in those ideas with all appropriate haste.

pilvento

2011-03-30, 03:12 PM

hi all, first time posting here.

im kinda still new to 40k (half a year playing) i play eldars, cause im a fan of speed, shurikens, and hit and run tacticks.

im singed up for a tournament in next month, arround 24 players so i expect a lot of variety and i think im ready for it but i still dont know how to counter a full tank imperial guardy army and also defend against all the other balanced armys.

my list so far: 1500pts

HQ autarch, reaper launcher

5 dark reapers, full equiped
2 fire prisms, holo fields, vectored engines

10 dire avengers +2 catapult exarch and bladestorm
- in bright lance wave serpent
5 scouts

10 warp spiders, exarch monorifle surprise assault
10 warp spiders, exarch monorifle surprise assault

i love this list but i hate the lack of my bike farseer and his 2 warlock bodyguards

comments or suggestions u can give me?

Erloas

2011-03-30, 03:42 PM

Well... its hard to say what to really change on that list without changing almost everything because it is nothing at all like any list I would run.

Off hand I'm not sure if vectored engines are much of a benefit for fire prisms because they don't generally move all that much anyway... but I might be remembering the upgrade wrong because its not one I find worth taking most of the time.

Not sure what your plan with the autarch is. In most cases Dark Reapers don't need any help doing their job and the autarch isn't designed to help them in close combat or any other situation they can't normally handle.
In general I find Reapers to be a bit too expensive so I tend to take them without any upgrades because they can still do their job without the exarch or his upgrades.

Troops... you simply don't have enough for a 1500 point game, unless for some reason your group never does objectives. The scouts... I'm still not to sure on, but in general I've never seen a reason to not upgrade them to pathfinders. I personally can't see any situation where I wouldn't bring jetbikes.

Warp Spiders... I like them, but at this point I don't think they are good enough to justify such a large percentage of your army. At this point I would probably drop one unit and maybe some things off the other one to get a different type of unit. And I really wish I had my book right now... but isn't surprise assault the one that lets you deep strike with them? Which is now a redundant ability since all jump infantry and DS no matter what. I could just have the skill names switched.

I can't believe you don't have any elite choices. I find banshees and scorpions always useful, and everyone knows what fire dragons can do.

For the high level of mobility that you get from the prisms, spiders, and wave serpent your scouts and reapers seem very out of place.

As for anti-tank... thats not really a surprise that you have issue with it since you have very little anti-tank. Outflanking war walkers and jetbikes are great for getting behind/beside tanks and taking out a few. Spiders can do it, but being AP- they are at a serious disadvantage to doing it. And of course fire dragons are an obvious choice for anti-tank.

In general I find scatter lasers (and a bit less so the shuriken cannon) to be some of the most versatile weapons in the game and you don't have a single one of either in your list.

pilvento

2011-03-30, 04:28 PM

Wraith

2011-03-30, 04:53 PM

Aha, a Tactical Thread with Independent Character. Good times :smalltongue:

my list so far: 1500pts

Interesting list, but I agree with Erloas. Moore Troops and less Warp Spiders would be of great benefit - I'd strongly consider 2x10 Dire Avengers, 5-10 Scouts and 5-10 Warp Spiders (with Exarch and Spinnerette Rifle) were I in your position.

Mounting the Avengers in Wave Serpents, as you have done, is a very good idea. Don't afraid to splash a few more points on their weapons though; with so few anti-tank weapons in your army besides the Fire Prisms, you'd be surprised at what can be accomplished by a Star Cannon fired from an unexpected angle :smallsmile:

The Fire Prisms are not an inherently bad choice, but Wraithlords are probably the best unit in the Codex, with the possible exception of some of the Phoenix Lords. I'd recommend playing a few games with them to see how you feel, as I genuinely expect them to outperform the Grav-Tanks. Against Tyranids, a good setup for Wraithlords is 2x Flamers and Shuriken Cannon. A Wraithblade is a nice way to spend some spare points of you expect to see a few Carnifex or a Hive Tyrant, but they're not imperative.

By your Dark Reapers being 'fully equipped', I assume you mean an Exarch, both powers and one of the upgraded weapons - is that right? May I ask which weapon you've given him, as some are better than others.

And Erloas was right about your Autarch. The Reapers will be fine on their own, and he will better serve with either the Dire Avengers (power weapon, Mandiblaster and Shuriken Catapult) or the Warp Spiders (Jump Pack plus Fusion Gun is reasonably good fun, in my experience).

Although it has to be said, a Farseer with the 'Doom' and 'Guide' powers will probably surpass either of those options, since you have one, particularly in such a 'shooty' army. I hope that's of help to you :smallsmile:

Cheesegear

2011-03-30, 05:39 PM

pumped out a modified version of this list for 2000 points.

Somebody's using Scouts. My Scout Sense is tingling.

Master of the Forge 155
- Conversion Beamer, Bike

If you're going to do a Master of the Forge, this is the only way to do it. Any other way and you've done it wrong.

Scouts 10 190
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Sergeant Telion

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

I don't like Telion, and I don't like Camo Cloaks. But, that's just me. And, mostly because I always go for full, ten-man Scout Squads, and I have a lot of them. Camo Cloaks over four different units can get you a whole new unit.

We understand that by losing Telion and the Cloaks, you can get a whole 'nother squad, right?

Scouts 10 170
- CCW & Pistol, Powerfist, Meltabombs

Power Fist and Melta Bombs...I spot wasted points. Lose the Bombs.
Also, do you know about Shotgun Scouts being better than Assault Scouts? Also, I don't like Assault Scouts at all unless they have a Land Speeder Storm. Rifles, Bolters or Shotguns.

Scouts 5 105
- CCW & Pistol, Powerweapon, Combi-melta, Meltabombs

Again, Shotguns. I also don't like Combi-Meltas unless you're running He'Stan, or have lots of them. Basically you're paying 10 points to miss. Lose the Combi-Melta, swap the Power Weapon for a Fist, and drop the Bombs.

Land Speeder Storm 60pts
- Heavy Flamer

Yeah, okay.

Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Yep. Find points for at least one to have a Locator Beacon.

Venerable Dreadnought 220pts
- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ew. See his BS5? Heavy Flamers ignore that awesomeness. See '4 shots' on the Assault Cannon? Makes BS5 pretty crap. Especially since what makes Assault Cannons good are To Wound rolls, which nothing affects.

See how you're in 2000 points? Do you notice the distinct lack of Lascannons in your list (and AP2 weapons in general)? Anybody who takes a Land Raider is going to ruin your day. Anybody who takes more than one Land Raider has basically already won during the Deployment Phase.

The same is said for Hammernators.

Dreadnought 125pts
- Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

Yep. Although only having one, and everything else in Drop Pods, means if your opponent has first turn, this thing is going to die in the first Shooting Phase.

Does anyone here ever use Scout Bikers, and are they worth it?

I've used Scout Bikes a bunch, and no. They are not worth it. Mostly because there are better things to spend your FA Slots on. Like...Anything-not-Vanguard.

If you want something that can hang around with a Bike, try Assault Marines or real Bikers.

Nameless Ghost

2011-03-30, 06:13 PM

The Fire Prisms are not an inherently bad choice, but Wraithlords are probably the best unit in the Codex, with the possible exception of some of the Phoenix Lords.
I cannot express how opposed I am to this. Wraithlords really aren't that great and most of the Phoenix Lords are just plain terrible.

I would run a Wraithlord with two heavy weapons, most likely the lance and missile, but in that case I would go for multiple Wraithlords. They aren't good in combat and the Wraithsword doesn't change that. The only time I would want a Wraithlord near enemy units was when I was making use of the twin flamers or tying up a unit that couldn't hurt it.

If you want to go for side shots on vehicles, scatter lasers are more effective due to having the extra shot. I've never seen a star cannon perform that effectively - they're more expensive and lack the rate of fire to really hurt anything.

Much agreeing on the Farseer though - I'd say they're pretty much mandatory. Being able to reroll your saves is amazing, as if the ability to hinder every enemy Psyker no matter where they are on the table.

GallóglachMaxim

2011-03-30, 06:19 PM

Special missions? Any idea of what they are? Is it crap like "If you have units in your opposing DZ, get extra points.", because stuff like that means MOAR MECHANISED, and MOAR DEEP STRIKES. In any case, I'll just go with your list as-is before I go breaking the tournament format.

I don't have all the details for it yet, the one last year had one mission with table quarters and another where one player deployed in the middle of the table and the winner was whoever had most units in their deployment zone at the end.

Lose the Power Fist. If your Command Squad is in Assault, you've already lost.
Fair enough, that can come off.

Forward Sentries gain you nothing. The Autocannon and Rifles work fine wherever they are on the board. Break this unit up to afford Plasmaguns on all your units above, or go with Ratlings, or something. Or just lose Forward Sentries. I'm unclear about what you want to do with this squad.

Forward sentries went on mainly for stealth, the defensive grenades are a bonus. Admittedly the only practice games I've played with this army were against Orks and Nids, which may have made it look more effective. What do you mean by 'wherever they are on the board'?
I could switch out the autocannon for a mortar, I'll see how that fits in with the other changes.

BANANAS. B-A-N-A-N-A-S. This s* is bananas.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Once again, I don't see the point of Forward Sentries. And the lack of trip-weapons on Veterans saddens me. Don't really see why these squads aren't MOAR INFANTRY. There's easily enough to fit in points for a Command Squad with a few points left over I believe.

Forward Sentries for the same reason as the others, cover save boosting. Yes, triple special weapons would be better but I put the grenades in with spare points. They're not infantry because of BS4, although that's a small difference. I'll try writing up the list the other way around, see how that looks.

I...Guess...??
Goes in the Valkyrie, yes? Meltaguns are better if that's the case.

Yep, that's right. Meltaguns probably would be better (and would solve the anti-tank issue that I skipped rocket pods to help with). I'll need to acquire some, the only two I have are on Harker's squad.

<3. Although the lack of Chimeras and 'not enough' Gunships will probably get these guys targeted down pretty fast.
Yeah, they'll stand out as a target in a list this infantry-heavy, but the only way to fix that would be to add a lot more vehicles or drop all of them and replace them wit more guys on foot. I've got time for a few practice games and more list fiddling before it needs to be submitted.

Marbo, I don't like. Really, it depends on your opponent's list on how good he is.
Well going into this I have no idea what other people will be running, or how efficient their list writing is. I'll try practice lists with and without Marbo, see what a difference replacing him makes.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-03-30, 06:23 PM

See how you're in 2000 points? Do you notice the distinct lack of Lascannons in your list (and AP2 weapons in general)? Anybody who takes a Land Raider is going to ruin your day. Anybody who takes more than one Land Raider has basically already won during the Deployment Phase.

The iron clads have melta guns standard don't they?

Making sure half of them have chain fists might help a little too.

Yep. Although only having one, and everything else in Drop Pods, means if your opponent has first turn, this thing is going to die in the first Shooting Phase.

On a proper sized board you can hide a dread in a corner or behind terrain to mitigate that a bit. Unless he's also dropping stuff. Then the best you can hope for is using him to choose where the enemy drops their stuff.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-03-30, 06:33 PM

I've used Scout Bikes a bunch, and no. They are not worth it. Mostly because there are better things to spend your FA Slots on. Like...Anything-not-Vanguard.

If you want something that can hang around with a Bike, try Assault Marines or real Bikers.

I see good use out of Scout Bikes, myself (I've only ever vassal'd them, but someone at my gaming club runs 'em). Fielding two small squads with max'd out grenade launchers and/or combi meltas make for nasty disruption units that aren't too easily removed and get around quickly.

They aren't exactly the best FA slot (though I still refuse to use land speeders, because of DoW memories >.>) but I'd have them over vanilla assault marines any day of the week.

Psychotic

2011-03-30, 06:43 PM

Craftworld

2011-03-30, 06:45 PM

as i said before, im kinda new, if u are willing to help me, ill tell the models i have .

avegers x 20
scouts x 10
2fire prisms
2 falcons/serpents
5repares
20spiders
10scoripions
2wraithlords
1vyper
all fenix lords
farseer in bike + 2 warlocks

i like spiders and mobility so on a second tought i can go

2prismins
2serpents + avengers
vyper (weapon?)
farseer and warlock

the idea of the other list was to play lots of spiders just for fun, and use the autarch so they come into play faster.

i palyed proxy guardin jetbikes lots of times, bt well they are expensive... a lot.

and i cant find the correct way to play the wraithlords. amybe cause my friends play tyranids (poison sucks) bike orks (cant catch em) imperial guard(monstrous creature minigun tank eats em)-Farseer with Warlock bodyguards-Guide and Doom or Fortune
-2x10 man Avenger Squads with Exarch with two Shuriken Catapults, and Bladestorm (no Bladestorm for the Asurmen squad) in the Serpents
-Vyper with either a Bright Lance or a Scatter Laser (depends on what you want to do)
-Fire Prisms=yes
-Scorpions=yes with an Exarch, Shadowstrike, and Biting Blade (Outflank with them and hit someone hard in the Backfield or just an unlucky tank on the flanks)
-Asurmen with one of your Avenger squads
-Spiders for whatever is left but try and keep them to higher amount of squads then men per squad.
This is pretty mech, and it is pretty fast for what isn't mech.

Tome

2011-03-30, 07:10 PM

So I've been running 'tactical' terminators for a few games now (5 man squad, Assault Cannon and 2 chainfists), and people keep on telling me to run a squad of 10 with two Cyclone Missile Launchers. Other than the increase in bodies, why would you take 10 and not use the standard 5 with a CML and a chainfist or two? Wouldn't that give you more points to spread out rather than putting a lot into one gigantic unit?

Only reason I can think of would be to Combat Squad them for objective games and keep them together for kill point games (assuming that your codex has an option to make them scoring). But then, I don't play marines, so it could be something I'm missing. :smallconfused:

Turcano

2011-03-30, 07:53 PM

At some point in the relatively distant future, I'd like to build a Guard army. At 2000 points, this is what I have so far:

HQ

Company Command Squad – 280 pts
Creed, Kell, Chimera

Troops

Infantry Platoon – 405 pts
Platoon Command Squad: Meltagun x3, Chimera
Veteran Squad: Meltaguns x2, Chimera
Veteran Squad: Meltaguns x2, Chimera

Infantry Platoon – 405 pts
Platoon Command Squad: Meltagun x3, Chimera
Veteran Squad: Meltaguns x2, Chimera
Veteran Squad: Meltaguns x2, Chimera

Fast Attack

Devil Dog Squadron x3 – 360 pts
Heavy Flamer

Devil Dog Squadron x1 – 120 pts
Heavy Flamer

Bane Wolf Squadron x1 – 130 pts
Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support

Leman Russ – 150 pts

Leman Russ – 150 pts

Thoughts?

Arcanoi

2011-03-30, 07:59 PM

Wraith

2011-03-30, 08:09 PM

I cannot express how opposed I am to this. Wraithlords really aren't that great...

Would it help if I qualified that statement with an additional "considering their points-versus-effectiveness ratio" sort of thing? Most Codices struggle to field something so good for such little cost,, even ones like Tyranids who specialise in having affordable (citation needed?) Monstrous Creatures.
Alternatively, I'd genuinely like to know what you think is a better Heavy Choice for Eldar (regarding efficient points cost or otherwise) and why - or, perhaps, what would better serve instead of a Heavy choice if necessary?

Not a lot of argument about the Phoenix Lords, mind, but then I have a soft spot for Karandras and Fuegan so I might be overlooking some of their smaller handicaps in the name of paraphrasing.... :smalltongue:

I would run a Wraithlord with two heavy weapons, most likely the lance and missile, but in that case I would go for multiple Wraithlords. They aren't good in combat and the Wraithsword doesn't change that.

I would disagree with the statement that "Wraithlord aren't very good in combat" as I believe that it's quite hard to call any s10 Monstrous Creature 'bad' when it comes to cracking open tanks and squashing Independent Characters, which is what you should ideally be using them for. And even if they just get used as a tarpit, that's fine.... so long as you're using them to tarpit something important!
But since I recognise the intention behind what you wrote then I won't bother with rhetoric ("How does rerolling to hit not help in CC?") and instead say that I agree with your suggested tactics.
Multiple Wraithlord with two Heavy weapons is a great way to use them, and personally I would prefer the power and/or flexibility offered by 3x Brightlance and 3x Missiles over three Prism Cannons, and Heavy Weapon Platforms are so situational that it's hard to class them in the same cataegory as a reliable Monstrous Creature. :smallbiggrin:

I've never seen a star cannon perform that effectively - they're more expensive and lack the rate of fire to really hurt anything.

Different strokes for different folks metagames, I suppose. Among my usual opponents, few of my units are detested more than a Wave Serpent equipped with Star Engines and Star Cannons (which are still cheaper than Brightlances, after all) getting behind their light vehicles with reliable inevitability. Except maybe the afore-mentioned multiple Wraithlord.
Maybe it's just down to my dice; strength 7 Heavy 2 always seems preferable to strength 'D' Heavy 1 regardless of the actual probability involved :smalltongue:

Much agreeing on the Farseer though - I'd say they're pretty much mandatory.

He also stops your Wraithlords from falling asleep in the middle of a fight. The reasons for taking at least one Farseer just keep on piling up no matter what else you take in your army! :smallbiggrin:

BoSheck

2011-03-30, 08:17 PM

As promised, here is the second report from my tournament:

A xenos incursion brings the wolves to a rocky wasteland--a short mission to purge the gribblies that had taken a foothold.

The Sons of Russ

270 - HQ - Valkur: wolf claw/storm shield/thunderwolf/2x fenrisian wolves/ saga of the warrior born, runic armor
275 - Logan Grimnar
100 - HQ - Rune Priest Tyr: Living Lightning/jaws of the world wolf;
260 - Fast - 4 Thunderwolf Cavalry storm shield; melta bombs; power fist
115 - Wolf's Hook - Elite- 5 Wolf Scouts: 2x power weapon; melta gun
330 - Troops - 5x Wolf Guard combi melta/power fist; terminator armor/cyclone missile; Arjac
110 - Skull Pack - Troops - 7x Grey Hunters: 1x meltagun
95 - Wolfbones - Troops - 6x Grey Hunters: 1x meltagun
145 - Hagalaz - Long Fangs: 2x missile launcher; 2x lascannon
115 - Sunwolf Pack - 5 long fangs, 4x multimelta,
----->35 - Drop Pod

Tyranids

Tyranid Prime - Lashwhip & Bonesword

3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Zoanthropes

Mawloc
Tyrannofex - Rupture Cannon/Stinger Salvo

5 Genestealers - Adrenal Glands, Broodlord
15 Termigants - Spinefist, Toxin Sacs

14 Hormagaunts - Adrenal Glands
6 Raveners - Deahtspitter

Their Battle:

This match was to be fought on objectives. Our cruisers scheduled a critical supply drop in this area. The bugs were racing to destroy them, while Logan personally oversaw the destruction of their detachment and claim these supplies uncontested. We prepared for a game setup of pitched battle. An interesting contest of armies given my maximum of 3 troops and his allotment of 2 to try and grab five objectives.

The hive elected to take first turn, and deployed in two central pockets across the table, one with a Tyranid Prime, some hormagaunts and a few hive guard. The other with hive guard, a fex of some sort, some shooty warriors and termigants and 3 Zo's. Mawloc in reserve, genestealers outflanking, raveners deep striking.

Terrain was sparse again. Skull Pack crowded into one piece in the corner directly across from the tyrannofex; Hagalaz settled atop the other near it and Wolfbones behind them. Valkur and all the wolves squeezed together in a tight formation between both pieces of terrain--the only blast weapons he had to fear were from the Zo's and they wouldn't last. Wolf's Hook was chosen to infiltrate--the gribblies A single Wolf guard stayed in reserve. Logan, Tyr, and Arjac joined the Sunwolves once more for glorious sky-dropped carnage.

As the mission required us to set up before rolling the objectives, we were ready--I won first objective placement and put it as close to my troops as possible, it scattered even closer. He put his back with the unopposed nids, which scattered towards me. My next was as close to my troops and other objective as I could--it scattered right next to the first (rules stated they were permitted to scatter to illegal placement zones, but couldn't start there.) He placed his, and the third ended up basically on Hagalaz. The wolf scouts infiltrated close enough to the termigants and shooty warriors to be an appetizing target, but threatening if ignored.

Turn 1:
Tyranid first turn saw most of them running forward. The Zos bounced some psychic shots off Valkur's unit, mostly going wide. The ‘fex killed one of Valkur's pet fenrisians. Hormagants run up, putting them too close to the Thunderwolves. A few scouts died.

The Sunwolves arrive. Skull pack moves into cover, waiting for the Genestealer threat to arrive and ensuring they strike first and strike last. Wolf-bones wraps around Hagalaz's flank. The Thunderwolves move up and the scouts move forward, waving power fists and swords enough to buy their pack mates enough time to bring victory. Superheated melta lashes into the Zoanthropes, annihilating 2 of the creatures, Tyr splits the earth beneath the Tyrannofex, swallowing the monster. Thunderwolves run, multicharging the remaining Zoanthrope and the Termigants, the Zo is cut down and Valkur begins tallying up kills for his Saga as bodies of the smaller aliens fall lifeless to the ground. The gribblies stand their ground as wolves circle around them.

Turn 2:
Hormagants run to counter-attack, the warriors finish the scouts off while the second hive guard fire shots into the Sunwolf pack, wounding Tyr and killed the pack leader. Genestealers sneak around near Skull Pack, but will be charging through cover today. Glorious combat is joined as the only other troop unit the tyranid player has slams into the Thunderwolves. Valkur the Warrior Born, wolf claw rerolls, and no retreat! saves end the fight before it had barely begun with a few wolves taking hits but staying up. Wolves consolidate toward the first hive guard. Skull pack kills most of the genestealers before they can even touch them, but the broodlord retaliates and his two remaining helpers manage to cut down several Grey Hunters.

The single wolf guard arrives from reserve, quite worried that there won’t' be any nids left for him by the time he gets to the fight. Sunwolf pack runs to seal the deal on the Genestealer fight while the cavalry move between the Hive guard and the Warriors; a poor fleet roll marks the Hive Guard to die and they taste the fury of the Warrior Born & co. Hagalaz puts a few wounds on the other Hive Guard as they enjoy the clear view of the carnage their wolf brothers reap. The last of the Genestealers fall before the combined might of 3 packs of wolf brothers. All combats resolve in favor of the Sons of Russ, and the entire army creeps toward the Warrior brood.

Turn 3:

Raveners and The Mawloc has arrived. The raveners position themselves to trade fire with Wolfbones and Hagalaz while the Mawloc comes up directly underneath Sunwolf. Every multimelta dies as the Old Wolf, his Champion and Tyr leap to safety.

While Valkur rides with the cavalry toward the warriors and Wolfbones drops bolter fire into the Raveners, Hagalaz turns about and fires on the monster that had emerged from the earth. Tyr splits the ground beneath it; Skull Pack unleashes krak missiles and pistols; Logan sprays the beast with his storm bolter, the single wolf guard puts a wound on the monster with his pistol. Arjac roars, hurling Foehammer at the abomination and stuns it--the wolves leap on their crippled prey, walking away victorious.

Turn 4:

The warrior prime in the back and his Hive guard try to move into range to pepper Hagalaz but are unable to make it. Raveners advance, firing more shots into Wolfbones; the Warriors move up on Logan, poor accuracy and tough-as-naill armor keeps the Great Wolf unharmed.

Wolfbones and Hagalaz lay heavy fire into the Raveners. The remains of Skull Pack join up with Logan and Tyr to collect two objectives. An unwounded Valkur and 5 thunderwolves descend on the Warrior brood, who manage to hold by some miscarriage of fortune.

Turn 5:
The judge informs us this will have to be our last game turn.

Raveners and Hive guard fire on Wolfbones, with the former managing to meet them in combat. Losses are heavy for the wolves but by the will of the Allfather they emerge victorious.

With little left to do and time running out, Wolfbones claims a third objective and Hagalaz fires some pot shots at the advancing Hive Guard.

3 objectives to 0; table Quarters and Victory Points are also uncontested in favor of Logan's force. Once again, the Sons of Russ claim all 20 battle points. Next match begins in just a few minutes: A fully mechanized Blood Angels company.

Cheesegear

2011-03-30, 08:30 PM

Other than the increase in bodies, why would you take 10 and not use the standard 5 with a CML and a chainfist or two? Wouldn't that give you more points to spread out rather than putting a lot into one gigantic unit?

I'm not sure what the question is, here. But, the problem that most people have with a unit of 5 Terminators, is that there's only one of them. Since Terminators are not Hammernators, they tend to die pretty quickly.

Having 10, does, yes, indeed get you more bodies. But, one gigantic unit? No. Space Marines have this rad little rule called Combat Squads, meaning, that for small, elite units like Terminators, you actually get two units for one slot. And then spend your other Elite slots on Sternguard or Dreadnoughts. Meaning your opponent needs to spread out his fire if he wants to take out your Terminators

Turcano

2011-03-30, 08:40 PM

Well, Veteran Squads aren't taken as part of Infantry Platoons. They're their own Troops choice.

Oh. The Codex was kind of confusing about that.

Edit: Updated List:

HQ

Company Command Squad – 280 pts
Creed, Kell, Chimera

Troops
Veteran Squad – 165 pts
Meltaguns x2, Heavy Weapons Team w/Lascannon, Chimera

Veteran Squad – 165 pts
Meltaguns x2, Heavy Weapons Team w/Lascannon, Chimera

Veteran Squad – 165 pts
Meltaguns x2, Heavy Weapons Team w/Lascannon, Chimera

Veteran Squad – 165 pts
Meltaguns x2, Heavy Weapons Team w/Lascannon, Chimera

Fast Attack

Devil Dog Squadron x3 – 360 pts
Heavy Flamer

Devil Dog Squadron x2 – 240 pts
Heavy Flamer

Bane Wolf Squadron x1 – 130 pts
Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support

Leman Russ – 150 pts

Leman Russ – 150 pts

Craftworld

2011-03-30, 09:39 PM

Ogremindes

2011-03-30, 10:15 PM

Captain with Dual Lightning Claws (or just one, I am not sure exactly what double lightning claws do exactly)

Lightning Claws are one of the close-combat weapons that only gives you the bonus for an additional close-combat weapon when you have a matching pair.

BoSheck

2011-03-30, 10:19 PM

I have been wanting to run a Marine Drop Pod list for some time and was wondering whether or not this is a good idea for a good list (I don't have the codex so I don't know the points but I am wanting to go to around 1500 points so if you guys could tell me what would be 1500 that would be awesome of you:smallbiggrin:)

Captain with Dual Lightning Claws (or just one, I am not sure exactly what double lightning claws do exactly)
3-5 Tactical Squads (10 man) with a flamer and (insert assault weapon here) all squads in Drop Pods
Sternguard in a Drop Pod
Maybe a Dreadnaught or two in drop pods if the points are still there.
This is fairly rudimentary advice, but you can arrange a pod list so that everything is on the board turn 1.
HQ of your choice.
Terminators w/pod
Tac squad w/pod x3
Shooty Dread w/pod
Devastators w/pod
Another squad of Dev's or a shooty dread w/pod.

The shooty units (Dreads/Devs) Start on the table with their drop pods in reserve while everybody else comes down. You can use the remaining empty pods to drop on objectives or hinder enemy movement/vision when they arrive.

Turcano

2011-03-30, 11:41 PM

The shooty units (Dreads/Devs) Start on the table with their drop pods in reserve while everybody else comes down. You can use the remaining empty pods to drop on objectives or hinder enemy movement/vision when they arrive.

Can you make dedicated drop pods Deathstorms? Because that would improve that tactic considerably.

Edit: Apparently not. Boo.

FlyingScanian

2011-03-31, 02:03 AM

Oh. The Codex was kind of confusing about that.
How can it be that? Sure, the guard codex is SLIGHTLY more "advanced" in the layout than most other codices, but that's because a friggin' three-year-old could understand those.

Sorry, major pet peave of mine. If you just read the codex, it is very clearly explained, and seen that an Infantry Platoon is one troop choice on the FOC, and may contain the following units....

Edit: Updated List:

HQ

Company Command Squad – 280 pts
Creed, Kell, Chimera

Troops
Veteran Squad – 165 pts
Meltaguns x2, Heavy Weapons Team w/Lascannon, Chimera

Veteran Squad – 165 pts
Meltaguns x2, Heavy Weapons Team w/Lascannon, Chimera

Veteran Squad – 165 pts
Meltaguns x2, Heavy Weapons Team w/Lascannon, Chimera

Veteran Squad – 165 pts
Meltaguns x2, Heavy Weapons Team w/Lascannon, Chimera

Fast Attack

Devil Dog Squadron x3 – 360 pts
Heavy Flamer

Devil Dog Squadron x2 – 240 pts
Heavy Flamer

Bane Wolf Squadron x1 – 130 pts
Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support

Leman Russ – 150 pts

Leman Russ – 150 pts

You don't see anything wrong with giving your veterans 2 weapons with an extremely short range and one weapon with moderately huge range, but that requires you to not move?

I would recommed replacing the Lascannons with more Meltas and perhaps diversifying the veterans by giving at least one squad Plasmas (or you could do a CCS with 3 plasmas and a medic if you're worried about loosing men... but why are you then playing guard :smalltongue: )

Also, both Creed and Kell? That is one darn expensive Command Squad. I would replace Kell, and probably Creed as well (then again, my prefered command squad is the aforementioned tri-plasma-medic...

Renegade Paladin

2011-03-31, 02:04 AM

Oh. The Codex was kind of confusing about that.
... No. No it was not. :smallconfused:

lord_khaine

2011-03-31, 02:07 AM

Multiple Wraithlord with two Heavy weapons is a great way to use them, and personally I would prefer the power and/or flexibility offered by 3x Brightlance and 3x Missiles over three Prism Cannons, and Heavy Weapon Platforms are so situational that it's hard to class them in the same cataegory as a reliable Monstrous Creature.

Yeah, i gotta say though, you can get a lot of fun out of a D-cannon if your army isnt based on jetbikes, and a singel battery cost about as much as a singel wraithlord.

Turcano

2011-03-31, 03:40 AM

How can it be that? Sure, the guard codex is SLIGHTLY more "advanced" in the layout than most other codices, but that's because a friggin' three-year-old could understand those.

Sorry, major pet peave of mine. If you just read the codex, it is very clearly explained, and seen that an Infantry Platoon is one troop choice on the FOC, and may contain the following units....

I must have interpreted Veteran Squads as being equivalent to Infantry Squads for the purposes of forming a platoon. :smallredface: In a way, I'm glad that was a mistake, since I didn't really want a Platoon Command Squad in the first place.

I would recommed replacing the Lascannons with more Meltas and perhaps diversifying the veterans by giving at least one squad Plasmas (or you could do a CCS with 3 plasmas and a medic if you're worried about loosing men... but why are you then playing guard :smalltongue: )

Is it better to put plasma guns all in one unit or to give each unit one plasma gun?

Also, both Creed and Kell? That is one darn expensive Command Squad. I would replace Kell, and probably Creed as well (then again, my prefered command squad is the aforementioned tri-plasma-medic...

I've always been told that Creed and Kell should always go together, and I want Creed for alpha-striking.

Renegade Paladin

2011-03-31, 04:01 AM

It is always better to specialize your squads' weapon loadouts, since they can't split fire. Never give veterans a mix of special weapons; it guarantees that some of your weapons will be useless no matter what you're shooting at.

Turcano

2011-03-31, 05:01 AM

Alright, here's the list updated again:

HQ

Company Command Squad – 280 pts
Creed, Kell, Chimera

Troops
Veteran Squad – 155 pts
Meltaguns x3, Chimera

Veteran Squad – 155 pts
Meltaguns x3, Chimera

Veteran Squad – 155 pts
Meltaguns x3, Chimera

Veteran Squad – 170 pts
Plasma Guns x3, Chimera

Fast Attack

Devil Dog Squadron x3 – 360 pts
Heavy Flamer

Devil Dog Squadron x2 – 240 pts
Heavy Flamer

Bane Wolf Squadron x1 – 140 pts
Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter

Heavy Support

Leman Russ – 165 pts
Lascannon

Leman Russ – 165 pts
Lascannon

Cheesegear

2011-03-31, 05:31 AM

Alright, here's the list updated again:

It's...Really good. But, when you make Mech Guard properly it usually is.

I see up thread Creed and Kell arguments...So...
If you want Kell, take Creed.
If you want Creed, you don't need Kell, entirely optional.

That's all I'll say on the matter. But, having Creed and Kell in Mech Guard is pretty pointless. You can't receive Orders from inside a vehicle, which is where your Infantry should be spending at least 100% of their time, and what Creed is for.

A couple of Gunships in place of one of the Devil Dog squads wouldn't go amiss either. And you save points by losing a few Chimeras.

I'd swap your HQ out for a pair of Lord Commissars or some Primaris Psykers. Mechanised do well with either.

Renegade Paladin

2011-03-31, 05:40 AM

Cheesegear

2011-03-31, 06:35 AM

I'll be more blunt than Cheesegear. Dump Creed and Kell. They're for footslogger lists, which this is not.

Well, you don't have to say it like that. But, entirely true. I was only trying to say why Creed was crap in a Mech list.

Penguinizer

2011-03-31, 07:46 AM

Instead, you should take the Bionic Man, a medkit and some meltas.

Personally, I'd actually just take a Primaris Psyker and use the rest of the points for more things.

Here's what I personally would run at 2000:

HQ:
Primaris Psyker: 70

Troops:
Veterans, 3x Melta, Chimera: 155
Veterans, 3x Melta, Chimera: 155
Veterans, 3x Melta, Chimera: 155
Veterans, 3x Melta, Chimera: 155

Fast Attack:
Vendetta Gunship with HB sponsons: 140
Vendetta Gunship with HB sponsons: 140
Vendetta Gunship with HB sponsons: 140

Heavy Support:
3x Hydra: 225
2x Demolisher: 330
2x Demolisher: 330

It might be a bit heavy on the anti-tank, but the Demos and Hydras should put dents in infantry. It's just my personal preferences on a lot of the things though. I thought I'd put it up to give you some ideas of what I think would work.

Winterwind

2011-03-31, 08:29 AM

As promised, here is the second report from my tournament:Thank you for that. And well written! :smallsmile:

3 objectives to 0; table Quarters and Victory Points are also uncontested in favor of Logan's force. Once again, the Sons of Russ claim all 20 battle points. Next match begins in just a few minutes: A fully mechanized Blood Angels company.Oooh, twice 20 points in a row. Impressive. Congratulations! :smallbiggrin:

Penguinizer

2011-03-31, 09:00 AM

Hmm. How should I counter Autocannon Dreads as a note? I currently don't have the cashmoneys for Vendettas. I'm thinking of trying to use my Demos or plink them out with my Hydra's. It's just too risky sending chimeras at them. Does anyone have any other advice?

Lowkey Lyesmith

2011-03-31, 09:01 AM

Here's what I personally would run at 2000:

HQ:
Primaris Psyker: 70

Troops:
Veterans, 3x Melta, Chimera: 155
Veterans, 3x Melta, Chimera: 155
Veterans, 3x Melta, Chimera: 155
Veterans, 3x Melta, Chimera: 155

Fast Attack:
Vendetta Gunship with HB sponsons: 140
Vendetta Gunship with HB sponsons: 140
Vendetta Gunship with HB sponsons: 140

Heavy Support:
3x Hydra: 225
2x Demolisher: 330
2x Demolisher: 330

Why do you give HB sponson to your Vendettas?
Also if you want to have some more anti-infantry you could replace one veteran squads meltas with 2 flamers and 1 heavy flamer. Other than that, good list.

Hmm. How should I counter Autocannon Dreads as a note? I currently don't have the cashmoneys for Vendettas. I'm thinking of trying to use my Demos or plink them out with my Hydra's. It's just too risky sending chimeras at them. Does anyone have any other advice?

I'd use the hydras until you can get Vendettas.

Cheesegear

2011-03-31, 09:04 AM

It might be a bit heavy on the anti-tank

...Wait...That's a thing? I didn't think that such a thing was possible in the current meta-game.

Penguinizer

2011-03-31, 09:16 AM

Why do you give HB sponson to your Vendettas?

It's mainly there to fill out the last 30 points.

Cheesegear

2011-03-31, 09:24 AM

It's mainly there to fill out the last 30 points.

Swap some of those Meltas to Plasmas instead then. Get actually useful stuff. Or get some Doctrines.

banjo1985

2011-03-31, 09:49 AM

Something like this?
*awesomeness snipped*

Resized and sigged for posperity. :smallbiggrin:

Tarinaky

2011-03-31, 10:08 AM

So is it too late to start speculating on what 'dex will come out next (in May iirc)?

Necrons have the oldest dex but if it goes MEQ-NonMEQ-MEQ I'm not sure if they count. Maybe Tau or Eldar?

Ninja Chocobo

2011-03-31, 10:20 AM

Among my usual opponents, few of my units are detested more than a Wave Serpent equipped with Star Engines and Star Cannons... Maybe it's just down to my dice; strength 7 Heavy 2 always seems preferable to strength 'D' Heavy 1 regardless of the actual probability involved :smalltongue:

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but uh, Starcannons are S6. Scatter Lasers are sorta better.

So is it too late to start speculating on what 'dex will come out next (in May iirc)?

Necrons have the oldest dex but if it goes MEQ-NonMEQ-MEQ I'm not sure if they count. Maybe Tau or Eldar?

a) The newest codex was is released, uh, now. There will not be a new codex in May.

b) GW is trending Marine - non-Marine, not MEq. Necrons are still a common and viable rumour. Tau have a foothold as well, though, as do Witch Hunters.

pilvento

2011-03-31, 10:43 AM

Thanks for all the help, after reading ur suggestions and reading the codex again and again. ill show u my new list so far...

HQ

bike farseer, spirit stones (mindwar, doom, guide, singing spear)
2 bike warlocks (destructor)

Troop

10 dire avengers, exarch twin catapults, bladestorm
wave serpent, spirit stones, vectored enginges, twin bright lances
10 dire avengers, exarch twin catapults, bladestorm
wave serpent, spirit stones, vectored enginges, twin bright lances

Heavy support

fire prism, holo fields
fire prism, holo fields

Fast attack

Vyper, shuriken cannon, scarter laser
10 warp spiders, exarch spinneret rifle, withdraw

total 1449pts

focus in speed, positining, and lots of lasers and shurikens!

Edit: corrected, added holo fields, took out vectored engines from vyper to reach 10 spiders. also vectored engines removed from fire prisms so serpents can use brightlances

Winterwind

2011-03-31, 11:00 AM

bike farseer (mindwar, doom, guide, singing spear)
2 bike warlocks (destructor)Without Fortune, I don't think these will live very long.
Also, why get him so many different powers, but no Spirit Stones so he can actually use more than one of them per turn? I'd cut down on powers and give him Spirit Stones instead.

10 dire avengers, exarch twin catapults, bladestorm
wave serpent, vectored enginges, twin scater lasers
10 dire avengers, exarch twin catapults, bladestorm
wave serpent, vectored enginges, twin scater lasersIn my humble opinion, Wave Serpents have no business flying around without Spirit Stones.

Vyper, vectored engines, shuriken cannon, scarter laserHonestly, I think Vectored Engines are much too expensive for something like a Vyper. Especially since you'll want the Vyper to shoot as much as possible, so most of the time it won't even be moving more than 12" anyway.

fire prism, vectored engines, spirit stones
fire prism, vectored engines, spirit stonesVectored Engines on Fire Prisms seems pretty pointless to me. Those will pretty much never be moving more than 12", so Vectored Engines won't do anything at all.
Spirit Stones are decidedly more useful, but if you cut both Vectored Engines and Spirit Stones you'd be only 5 points per Fire Prism away from giving them Holo-Fields, which is an incredible increase in durability - much more than either Vectored Engines or Spirit Stones could ever accomplish.

Only two troops looks a bit few to me, but I see no truly satisfying way how to fix it without a massive list rewrite; the simplest way, however, would probably be replacing the Warlocks with Jetbike Guardians. If you can scrounge up the points somewhere, you could even add a Warlock to the Jetbike Guardians, so you'd actually miss out on only one Warlock.

Tarinaky

2011-03-31, 11:30 AM

a) The newest codex was is released, uh, now. There will not be a new codex in May.

Would it be June then? Iirc someone said they were on a bimonthly schedule.

pilvento

2011-03-31, 11:32 AM

just forgot to tip em, i bought the spirit stones for the farseer.

also the spirit stones on the prism are meant for the serpents. and the prism do have holo fields. this is just my bad for tiping it right into the forum while reading the codex instead of using the army builder :smalltongue:

EDIT: ill correct the list now...

Hootman

2011-03-31, 11:48 AM

So, I spent entirely too much time last night working on this list, trying to incorporate all of the advice I've been getting without ruining the feel I was going for. I'm pretty happy with it as it is, although since I was wrapping up at 4am, I could have made a horrible mistake somewhere and missed it completely. So far, every unit can threaten AV12, and most of them can at least scratch AV14, so I think I'm situated fairly well to combat the current general metagame. That, and 6 Dreads will never NOT be hilarious.

HQ
Master of the Forge 155
- Conversion Beamer, Bike

TROOPS
Scouts 10 150
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
- Combat Squadded

Scouts 10 150
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
- Combat Squadded

Scouts 5 100
- 4 CCW & Pistol, 1 Powerfist & Shotgun
- Embarked on Land Speeder Storm (below)

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder Storm 60pts
- Heavy Flamer

Scout Bikers 4 120pts
- 3 Astartes Grenade Launchers

ELITES & HEAVY SUPPORT
Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- DCCW with Heavy Flamer, Chainfist with Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- DCCW with Heavy Flamer, Seismic Hammer with Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 190pts
- DCCW with Stormbolter, Chainfist with Meltagun
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Ironclad Dreadnought 190pts
- DCCW with Stormbolter, Seismic Hammer with Meltagun
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Venerable Dreadnought 230pts
- DCCW with Stormbolter, Twin-Linked Lascannon
- Drop Pod

Dreadnought 125pts
- Twin-Linked Autocannon with Stormbolter, Twin-Linked Autocannon

ALLIES

Inquisitor Lord 122pts
- Bolter-Stake Crossbow, Psychic Hood, Hexaggrammic Wards
- Retinue: 1 Sage, 2 Vet Guardsmen, 1 Chirugeon

TOTAL: 1962pts

I'm not sure how to spend the last 38 points; should I add to my Lord's retinue, change his equipment, try to take more Bikes, or upgrade something I haven't considered? If anyone has any suggestions on how to make the Lord more efficient (he's currently a "stand in the middle-back, shoot a bit, and foul up all psykers" role), I'd be quite happy to hear them.

Zorg

2011-03-31, 12:15 PM

Only two points:

The Mortis dread shouldn't have a Storm Bolter - it's part of the DCCW so both weapons are relaced by the TLAC.

I wouldn't make the Inquisitor too essential a part of your game-plan given the rumours Sisters will be out by the end of the year at the latest. Run him for now, but he won't be around for much longer.

Hootman

2011-03-31, 01:22 PM

The Mortis dread shouldn't have a Storm Bolter - it's part of the DCCW so both weapons are relaced by the TLAC.

I assumed that originally as well, but in the Ironclad entry, it is explicitely stated when you trade the DCCW & Stormbolter to get a Hurricane Bolter. I made the leap of logic that, as it is specified elsewhere, it's possible that only the DCCW is replaced by the TLAC, and the Stormbolter is retained.

Sort of a silly weapon to stick on a TLAC, but if it gets me an extra few shots at something weak, may as well.

Wraith

2011-03-31, 01:22 PM

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but uh, Starcannons are S6. Scatter Lasers are sorta better.

You read it right; I just typo'd the strength, so thanks for pointing it out and correcting it :smallsmile:

Scatter Lasers are a good alternative, though I personally like my AP2 too much to give it up easily. Depends who you play against, I guess - I tend to have to kill Daemon Princes and/or MEQs a lot and like the reliability that comes from denying their saves.

Zorg

2011-03-31, 01:36 PM

Take with salt:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8dDPtdfGlIo/TZTF3HypGjI/AAAAAAAAArA/kK6KeN-9Jac/s1600/1301586042-1301573276322.gif

From HERO (http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/03/sisters-of-battle-incoming.html) via B.o.K.

Lowkey Lyesmith

2011-03-31, 02:57 PM

Inquisitor D

2011-03-31, 02:57 PM

Squee, Witch Hunters! Or Sisters of Battle, based on the DH to GK change. So many neat things that I dont know what they do. Five man squads of sisters? Seems interesting. I wonder if one of those two rules is the new "acts of faith" and what that'll do. Should be interesting.

Timberwolf

2011-03-31, 03:06 PM

I would play them, but only if they redid the Exorcist model. I'm sorry, ok rules at the moment, really stupid looking model. Either that or gave me another credible tank killing vehicle that I could use instead.

Mattarias, King.

2011-03-31, 03:06 PM

*Crashes through a nearby wall, screeches to a halt*

Woah, woah, woah.

....That's it, I'm officially back into 40k. :smalleek:

Mildly concerned about the fact that faith isn't mentioned, but I'm assuming that's what the special rules and relic are about.

..But still, HOT DAMN, official repressors.

...Er.. Oh, uhm.. Hi! :smallredface: Long time no thread. Up to XI now, huh? Wow. How's them, uh.. Knights?

....Who am I kidding? I'm gonna go party, salt or not. :smallcool:

(Darn you Hootman! Now I have another thread I have to monitor! ...Again! :smalltongue:)

Erloas

2011-03-31, 03:30 PM

10 points per model seems a bit cheap to me. Sure you loose a few 4s in the statline but how often do normal marines end up in CC anyway(that they are expected to win). Of course some of that could just be that I'm used to models that are a little overcosted. And of course I have no idea what they cost now.

Overall though there isn't a whole lot of information there, other then the implication that the army is being playtested. Of course there is nothing about the scan that anyone with Excel couldn't duplicate in a few minutes. I also haven't seen any (apparently) brazen breeches of an NDA for GW in a long time. Usually the people that do leak the info are much more vague about it and usually models are leaked long before anything so concrete in terms of rules.

Hootman

2011-03-31, 03:37 PM

(Darn you Hootman! Now I have another thread I have to monitor! ...Again! :smalltongue:)

*bow* But of course, I cannot take all of the credit, as I didn't post the tidbits myself. You're welcome though. :smallbiggrin:

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is an official ruling regarding my Stormbolter conundrum, above? Basically, if I trade my Dreadnought's DCCW for another weapon, does the Stormbolter also go away? The Ironclad Dreadnought's choices seem to be in contradiction with that ruling.

pilvento

2011-03-31, 03:43 PM

Eorlas, i know everyone is going to start talking about sisters of battle now, but im really looking foward for your opinion about te new army list i posted at the top of this page of the thread.

Arcanoi

2011-03-31, 03:45 PM

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is an official ruling regarding my Stormbolter conundrum, above? Basically, if I trade my Dreadnought's DCCW for another weapon, does the Stormbolter also go away? The Ironclad Dreadnought's choices seem to be in contradiction with that ruling.

Weapons that don't explicitly say they have an in-built Stormbolter/Heavy Flamer do not have an in-built Stormbolter/Heavy Flamer.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-03-31, 04:06 PM

Would it be June then? Iirc someone said they were on a bimonthly schedule.

They've never been on any sort of schedule. Last codex was november, next one is this week. One before that was feburary.

I would play them, but only if they redid the Exorcist model. I'm sorry, ok rules at the moment, really stupid looking model. Either that or gave me another credible tank killing vehicle that I could use instead.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Witch_Hunters/EXORCIST-COMPLETE-KIT.html

Cheaper than the metal one. Same price if you go for forgeworld doors as well.

Personally I use second edition whirlwinds.

Hmm. How should I counter Autocannon Dreads as a note? I currently don't have the cashmoneys for Vendettas. I'm thinking of trying to use my Demos or plink them out with my Hydra's. It's just too risky sending chimeras at them. Does anyone have any other advice?

You don't. Autocannon dreads are a counter to you. To counter autocannon dreads you take a pure infantry army and stick them in cover. Also go with camo cloaks over carapace armour or medics.

You can deep strike stormtroopers near them (plasma guns at the rear armour or melta guns). But really you just have to rely on your chimeras less.

b) GW is trending Marine - non-Marine, not MEq. Necrons are still a common and viable rumour. Tau have a foothold as well, though, as do Witch Hunters.

Necrons seem pretty certain where I'm standing. I can't remember the hinted next codex being wrong. Only that nobody could believe dark eldar were finally coming out.

pilvento

2011-03-31, 04:10 PM

They've never been on any sort of schedule. Last codex was november, next one is this week. One before that was feburary.

november, febraury, april..? sry but sounds bimonthly to me :smalltongue:

EDIT: lolzzz sry junary was in the middle :smallbiggrin:

i just hope next codex is for necrons, thats all

Closet_Skeleton

2011-03-31, 04:31 PM

november, febraury, april..? sry but sounds bimonthly to me :smalltongue:

No. Feburary 2010 -> november 2010 -> april 2011. Not bimonthly at all.

Erloas

2011-03-31, 04:41 PM

Eorlas, i know everyone is going to start talking about sisters of battle now, but im really looking foward for your opinion about te new army list i posted at the top of this page of the thread.

I think Winterwind said most of what I was thinking.

I never found mindwar all that great, and guide is too short of range for you to put it to much use if your farseer is on a bike with the warlocks and not likely to be with the units that could make use of it. I would go with a spirit stone, fortune, and doom.

Don't see the point in the vectored engines on the fire prisms, to be of any use you have to be moving >12" which isn't necessary with the tank and you wouldn't be able to shoot either. Save the points and don't go over cruising speed.
Might even say the same thing with the wave serpents. With DA's 18" range its not like you have to close with the enemy anyway and staying at a speed where you can embark/disembark every turn is important for their use. The chance of being immobilized the same turn you absolutely have to go flat out just doesn't seem high enough to be worth the cost. A bright lance on one of the WSs wouldn't be bad either, its my favorite place for BLs in fact, though SLs are always a good choice.

Vyper I also wouldn't give it a stone because if it can't shoot its mostly useless anyway and being AV10 and open topped you aren't likely to end up with many shaken/stunned results anyway.

Spiders, surprise assault is now a redundant ability because they can deep strike for free because of their unit type in the this edition.

Not really sure how many points that would free up.

pilvento

2011-03-31, 04:48 PM

Wraith

2011-03-31, 05:22 PM

no vectored engines for the prisms, no stones for the vyper, no surprise assault for the spiders. that gives me 65 points, i can give brightlances to both serpents now, add an extra warlock or take out the spider exarch and add an autarch?

I'd say, keep the Exarch and give him Withdraw instead. Warp Spiders are pathetic in close combat but occasionally survive a charge because of their armour save. Allowing them to Hit & Run can often save them from being wiped out with enough bodies left to still make use of their guns. :smallsmile:

That leaves you with 50 points, which very handily gives you Bright Lances for the Wave Serpents and a Shuriken Cannon for one of them if you want it (although I would probably instead take 8 Warp Spiders and put the spare 10 towards another Warlock, but that's only because I like Warlocks rather than them being of particularly better use :smallbiggrin: )

pilvento

2011-03-31, 06:09 PM

list edited once again, thanks for all the help.

but, can i ask you how does hit and run exactly work? i assault, check initiative and then leave? or i can leave when i am assaulted?

Turcano

2011-03-31, 06:36 PM

Well, you don't have to say it like that. But, entirely true. I was only trying to say why Creed was crap in a Mech list.

Aww, but I want to be a tactical genius.

On a more serious note, that would free up 140 points, which would let me have one more Fast Attack model. If I took a Vendetta squadron, is it better to keep the Bane Wolf squadron or the second Devil Dog squadron?

Also, I assume that I should keep the lascannons on any Vendetta gunships I take, since Hellfury missiles are one-shot and don't seem to be much better than a heavy flamer.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-03-31, 06:53 PM

list edited once again, thanks for all the help.

but, can i ask you how does hit and run exactly work? i assault, check initiative and then leave? or i can leave when i am assaulted?

You use it at the end of either player's assault phase. So if he charges you, you fight each other, then you can choose to leave if niether of you breaks.

Craftworld

2011-04-01, 06:42 AM

You use it at the end of either player's assault phase. So if he charges you, you fight each other, then you can choose to leave if niether of you breaks.

I believe that you test for withdrawl first like when retreating out of assault (1d6+initiative) and if you win you get I believe a 2d6 fall back move. (do it at the end of your opponent's turn so that you can charge back in if you so choose after shooting.)

Irbis

2011-04-01, 07:28 AM

Something interesting from BoK:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8dDPtdfGlIo/TZTF3HypGjI/AAAAAAAAArA/kK6KeN-9Jac/s1600/1301586042-1301573276322.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fQrexJcjLCU/TZUvOGiboMI/AAAAAAAAArE/b6ba2ZGBU8A/s1600/5577523583_7b23e50930_b.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-setmbDK82oI/TZUvRRwBdNI/AAAAAAAAArI/oFvbHyWIif8/s1600/5577523247_1c7d932714_b.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E2RNq0pjPus/TZUvToS_STI/AAAAAAAAArM/dptzfXPftQI/s1600/5578465780_3db09a24b5_b.jpg

What do you think? :smalltongue:

Edit - it was posted above, but there are 4 pages, not 1.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-01, 08:25 AM

Could be fake. If it isn't fake its a work in progress that could be changed completely.

Archaballisters are weird considering what bolter-stake crossbows became in the Grey Knights book. They also suck since they can't wound non-psykers without rending.

No heavy flamers or evicerators on sisters squads sucks.

The arbitor's shock maul rules stink of mechanics that they got rid of in previous 5th ed books. So that makes me suspiciuos.

The militia guys were in the Chapter Approved list and the 2nd ed codex. They were always a possibility. But with close combat arbitors I don't see why you'd ever use them. Doubly so if sisters repentia are still in.

Renegade Paladin

2011-04-01, 08:28 AM

What do you think? :smalltongue:
I think shenanigans, because if there is a sidearm (the "stub pistol") that is "widely available throughout the Imperium" and superior to a laspistol, why is it not issued to the Guard? :smalltongue:

Winterwind

2011-04-01, 08:34 AM

Could be fake. If it isn't fake its a work in progress that could be changed completely.Looks fake to me. On top of all the things you mentioned already, and some of these units being either redundant or so over-costed I don't think even work in progress would get it so wrong, these scribbles honestly make it look more like a fabrication made to look like work in progress than actual work in progress to me. I can't even quite put my finger on it, but it just doesn't feel right.

Archaballisters are weird considering what bolter-stake crossbows became in the Grey Knights book. They also suck since they can't wound non-psykers without rending.They could, on a 4+, per Sniper rule.

Tarinaky

2011-04-01, 08:37 AM

Well. It is April 1st. The timing alone makes it suspicious.

Winterwind

2011-04-01, 08:42 AM

Well. It is April 1st. The timing alone makes it suspicious....sheesh, and here I'd promised myself to keep watching out for specifically stuff like that. :smallbiggrin:

Though, Zorg posted his page yesterday (even yesterday for Australia, as far as I can tell)...

EDIT: And Games Workshop, at least, has gone for something quite different (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16100001a) as their April 1st joke. It's a bit obvious, but hilarious nonetheless. :smallbiggrin:

Zorg

2011-04-01, 08:50 AM

I think shenanigans, because if there is a sidearm (the "stub pistol") that is "widely available throughout the Imperium" and superior to a laspistol, why is it not issued to the Guard? :smalltongue:

$$$. It's been that way with lasweapons forever in the background - they're often inferior but much cheaper to make and maintain than ballistic weapons.

I think the Sisters is likely a very early playtest/first draft.
And speaking of GW April fools...

How to Roll Citadel Dice: a 126-page full-colour guide containing everything you ever need to know about rolling dice to improve your battles (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16100001a).

FlyingScanian

2011-04-01, 08:57 AM

Archaballisters are weird considering what bolter-stake crossbows became in the Grey Knights book. They also suck since they can't wound non-psykers without rending.

Wait, what? They're Sniper weapons, meaning (among other things) that they automatically wound on 4+...

I think shenanigans, because if there is a sidearm (the "stub pistol") that is "widely available throughout the Imperium" and superior to a laspistol, why is it not issued to the Guard? :smalltongue:

Logistics? (as in it's easier to provide a few power cells, that the guardsmen themselves can reload, than to provide a metric beep-ton of ammo). That has in my eyes always been the justification of the crappy guard equipment. The main guard strategy, on a larger scale, is, after all, shoveling men at things until they go away...

Sadly, it still seems a bit strange, and is most likely in alpha stage, if even that... still, if it's true, it would surely be great, as long as they do not let someone *cough*ward*cough* bungle the fluff...

Edit: Well, that was a massive Ninja...

hamishspence

2011-04-01, 09:14 AM

$$$. It's been that way with lasweapons forever in the background - they're often inferior but much cheaper to make and maintain than ballistic weapons.

In Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy- isn't it the other way round? Autoguns have a standard battle range of 90 m, compared to 100 m for the lasgun. And do the same amount of damage.

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-01, 09:21 AM

What do you think? :smalltongue:

This is so fake. They could have at least bothered to change the font from Arial for their headings.

Tarinaky

2011-04-01, 09:56 AM

I will note that 10 points per Sister smells suspicious given that IG Veterans with Carapace cost 11 per model and only have 4+ saves.

Work in progress or not - you'd assume the designers would start by looking at what similar already costs elsewhere.

Hootman

2011-04-01, 10:27 AM

Erloas

2011-04-01, 10:58 AM

Actually, the current WH codex prices Sisters at 11 points each (with another charge if you want the unit to be Faithful and have a Veteran), so the 10pts/model isn't all that far fetched. It's worth noting that the Battle Sister Squad seems to have lost a lot of its previous custimization options, making the lower price less "out there".

Well if you consider the cost of a build in unit champion is about equivalent to another point drop per model (I would expect a 10 point per model unit to have the champion upgrade at about 6-8 points) then that would be closer to a 2 point drop.
10 points per model doesn't seem too out of line with their stat line, equipment and either a bolter or pistol, but seems a bit low with both and several special abilities.

And as someone else mentioned, the "notes" on the one sheet just seem... fake. They seem out of place and too brief for any real internal working document. Especially being on only one page. Adding fluff to a playtesting book seems unnecessary.

Zorg

2011-04-01, 11:59 AM

More from Forge World:

Wraithseer: (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Events/Wraithseer.html)

Rare and precious beyond compare, their souls protected from the predations of Slaanesh within spirit stones, long-dead Warlocks of great power can still be summoned to aid their Craftworld in the form of a Wraithseer. Armed with a lethal D-Cannon and a Wraithblade wreathed in the eldritch energy of their psychic arts, a Wraithseer is a terrible and implacable foe.

The Eldar Wraithseer, designed by Will Hayes, is a complete resin and plastic kit that will be available in limited numbers at the Forge World Open Day prior to its release later in April. The kit costs £34.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/FW/wraithseerp1.jpg

Corsairs: (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Events/Corsairs.html)

There are many bands of so-called ‘Corsair’ Eldar scattered across the galaxy, and all are savage and deadly raiders. Outcasts from the strict confines of the Craftworlds, the Corsairs live in self-imposed exile, seeking to explore the galaxy and experience the full gamut of emotion and sensation accessible to the Eldar’s sensitive psyche.

Most are young and adventurous Eldar who will eventually return to their homes older, wiser and tempered by warfare. Some, however, embrace the raider’s life completely and fall further still, becoming ever more bloodthirsty and psychotic, indulging their darkest impulses and eventually seeking out the infamous Dark City.

The Eldar Corsair Conversion Kit is designed for use with the plastic Eldar range. Designed by Will Hayes, this resin upgrade kit contains detailed weapons, jump packs and heads that enable Eldar players to convert ten plastic Eldar Guardians into Corsairs. The Corsair kit will be available in limited numbers at the Forge World Open Day, priced at £18.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/FW/corsairs2.jpg

> If you don't know their jump packs are super old-skool from the old Eldar pirate/merc days of Rogue Trader.

Strongpoint addon for the Realm of Battle board. (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Events/Strongpoint.html)

An exciting new addition to Forge World’s finely detailed resin scenery range is the Imperial Strongpoint Expansion. Designed for use with the Citadel Realm of Battle Gameboard, this 2' by 2' tile is a superbly detailed fortified stronghold that will make a great feature for armies to fight over in your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Comprising a power generator, two reinforced defensive positions, dragons-teeth tank traps and huge, armoured blast doors dug into a central hill, the Imperial Strongpoint Expansion is cast from a hollow resin as durable and sturdy as the plastic Realm of Battle Gameboard tiles available from the main Games Workshop range.

Perfect for representing critical objectives such as a command and control facility, or a fortified artillery pit, the Imperial Strongpoint can be used in games of Planetstrike as a unique Bastion or to represent a huge variety of stratagems, strategic assets and other rules in Battle Missions, games of Apocalypse and other Warhammer 40,000 battles, not to mention the Games Day Armies on Parade competition.

Exclusively available at the Forge World Open Day on Sunday 3rd April, prior to its main release date later this year, the Realm of Battle Imperial Strongpoint, designed by Stuart Williamson, costs £60.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/FW/board6.jpg

-

The Wraithseer is sooooo freaking cool!

Winterwind

2011-04-01, 12:06 PM

The Wraithseer is sooooo freaking cool!It seriously is. I like it much, much better than the regular Wraithlord model. :smalleek: :smallsmile:

lord_khaine

2011-04-01, 12:20 PM

Wraithseer:Rare and precious beyond compare, their souls protected from the predations of Slaanesh within spirit stones, long-dead Warlocks of great power can still be summoned to aid their Craftworld in the form of a Wraithseer. Armed with a lethal D-Cannon and a Wraithblade wreathed in the eldritch energy of their psychic arts, a Wraithseer is a terrible and implacable foe.

The Eldar Wraithseer, designed by Will Hayes, is a complete resin and plastic kit that will be available in limited numbers at the Forge World Open Day prior to its release later in April. The kit costs £34.

This sounds most of all like a cruel aprils fool from Forge World..

Squark

2011-04-01, 01:10 PM

As I said in the April Fool's thread, GW earned some respect from me today.

They didn't taunt me with a Necron Codex fake-news. So that's something, I geuss.

Arcanoi

2011-04-01, 01:27 PM

This sounds most of all like a cruel aprils fool from Forge World..

If there was some note how, due to its Singing Spear, the Wraithseer was S16 when attacking vehicles, then it would be a joke.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-01, 01:30 PM

Zorg

2011-04-01, 01:32 PM

This sounds most of all like a cruel aprils fool from Forge World..

I don't think they'd dare, only 'casue they'd all get lynched at Open Day tomorrow :smallbiggrin:

Pity they don't get the chainmail and punk haircuts of the Rogue Trader eldar.

Use Dark Elves and Dark Eldar bitz maybe?

lord_khaine

2011-04-01, 02:51 PM

If there was some note how, due to its Singing Spear, the Wraithseer was S16 when attacking vehicles, then it would be a joke.

Well, that would tbh only be a minor upgrade from 10+2d6 :smalltongue:

If anyone finds some rules for them, please do post them :smallsmile:

Wraith

2011-04-01, 03:56 PM

but, can i ask you how does hit and run exactly work? i assault, check initiative and then leave? or i can leave when i am assaulted?

Either choice is legal, though the latter is preferable.

Usually, it should happen when you have been charged in your opponent's turn so that in the next turn (your own) you can launch a round of shooting and then get the benefit of declaring your own assault if you want to.

Try not to do it at the end of your own turn unless you have a very cunning plan in mind, as then the next move is your opponent's so you're just giving them the benefit of the charge instead. :smallsmile:

Wraithseer:

Ooooh, shiney! Not so long ago, I was genuinely considering selling up all my Eldar as I just wasn't happy with them any more. This model, and the promise of a Relentless D-Cannon however? Really glad I didn't do it after all :smallbiggrin:

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-01, 04:27 PM

So...I'm building an orc army, Bad Moons and Evil Sunz, and they're turning out good. They aren't nearly as good as the ones the guys working for Games Workshop paint, but they have all the supplies they need and years of practice, whereas I just started and have only a thing of old Testor's Acryl paints that have a very limited array of colors and a box of my neighbor's old, used up basic citadel paints, which are missing all the good colors and a lot of their moisture.

I recently got the black reach kit, and want to paint the space marines and make my own chapter, but I'm wondering what to do. I want to make them a salamanders successor chapter with gloss black and shiny orange as their main colors. Any hints/tips/methods/colors to watch out for or use?

EDIT: Concerning the playing tips: I have never found fully upgrading any squad to go badly for my orks. Full ten warbiker nobs with power klaws? I've seen them prove more effective than warlord titans.

Wraith

2011-04-01, 04:57 PM

Welcome aboard, TechnoScrabble - thanks for joining us :smallsmile:

If you're after tips on painting and the skills involved, you could do worse than the GitP Miniatures Painting Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165463&page=40); there's a lot of people who post in both that thread and this one, but you will learn plenty from those guys who're more dedicated to the art of 40k rather than the gaming :smallsmile:

In terms of rules and fluff, however, I recommend that your next step is to search the Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=orange&go=Go) for Marine Chapters with orange in their colour scheme.

It is completely unimportant if you paint 'your' Chapter in the same way as an existing one and call it by a different name if you want to. You might, however, like to know that you're not doing it by accident, or if you would like to know what sort of patterns and schemes are already in use for your own source of inspiration.

[EDIT] For everyone else, I thought I'd mention this.

BEHOLD! The Necron Megalith (http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/necron-megalith-revealed/), the first spoiled unit from the upcoming Necron Codex!

Yep, we all know what the date is, but none-the-less.... Quite a good one, considering the effort that's gone into it. :smallbiggrin:

Cheesegear

2011-04-02, 04:07 AM

EDIT: Concerning the playing tips: I have never found fully upgrading any squad to go badly for my orks.

May I please play in this meta-game where wasted points are not laughed at or brutally torn to shreds?

Full ten warbiker nobs with power klaws? I've seen them prove more effective than warlord titans.

Effective, yes. Efficient? Hell no.

70 Points each, before Musical Wound shenanigans and other upgrades (like a Painboy), I assume you're looking at a 700-900 point unit, not to mention the Warboss you've got to make them Troops (right?).

It reeks of 'all in one basket'-ness. Most armies can deal with this unit, with about half the points. I suppose it depends on your meta-game and what you're likely to deal with.

Tarinaky

2011-04-02, 04:27 AM

Well, upgrades are not inherently evil (or else you'd never see sponsons) - but it's best to buy only the bare minimum you need for the unit to do its job.

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-02, 05:05 AM

Most armies can deal with this unit, with about half the points. I suppose it depends on your meta-game and what you're likely to deal with.

Half?
You've got pretty okay odds of taking this unit out completely with a single Manticore shot.

Irbis

2011-04-02, 07:52 AM

[EDIT] For everyone else, I thought I'd mention this.

BEHOLD! The Necron Megalith (http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/necron-megalith-revealed/), the first spoiled unit from the upcoming Necron Codex!

Yep, we all know what the date is, but none-the-less.... Quite a good one, considering the effort that's gone into it. :smallbiggrin:

Effort? :smallconfused:

Sorry, I lost patience after two minutes of their babbling, but if it is that thing to the left... that doesn't look Necron at all, it looks like cardboard model of Greek temple cut in some places and painted black, in, like, 5 minutes. They were too lazy to even paint Necron glyphs on it :smallsigh:

Still, thanks for posting this.

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-02, 08:57 AM

Effort? :smallconfused:

Sorry, I lost patience after two minutes of their babbling, but if it is that thing to the left... that doesn't look Necron at all, it looks like cardboard model of Greek temple cut in some places and painted black, in, like, 5 minutes. They were too lazy to even paint Necron glyphs on it :smallsigh:

Still, thanks for posting this.

It had this whole mechanism for displaying different models which required either some significant engineering, some clever editing, or a guy under the table, as well as a whole set of completely ridiculous rules.

They went too far with it though. This one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mE-uenB6nQ) is much better.

Irbis

2011-04-02, 09:25 AM

It had this whole mechanism for displaying different models which required either some significant engineering, some clever editing, or a guy under the table, as well as a whole set of completely ridiculous rules.

Ah. Figures, they simply lost me on this thanks to the length.

And yes, guy under the table was probably the case.

Tarinaky

2011-04-02, 10:40 AM

In order to 'up my game' I've been having a go playing as some different races against my Blood Angels to try and get a feel for what I should be doing when facing off against them for real... but I seem to suck even more at playing non Space Marines than I do at playing Marines.

Today I've been trying to do Tyranids and every time I seem to be offering no real resistance or casualty to my BA army.

I started with some of the 'nid armies I've seen as a base for what I should be doing, this is what I'm looking at at the moment:
=Tyranids 1,500pts=

HQ - Hive Tyrant - 195pts
Hive Commander, Leech Essence, Paroxysm

Elite - 3x Lictors - 195pts

Elite - 2x Zoanthropes - 120pts

Elite - Doom of Malan'tai - 140pts
Mycetic Spore: Twinlinked Deathspitters

Troops - 3x Tyranid Warriors - 120pts
2x Rending Claws, Devourer
1x Rending Claws, Venom Cannon

Troops - 3x Tyranid Warriors - 120pts
2x Rending Claws, Devourer
1x Rending Claws, Venom Cannon

Troops - 16x Termagaunts - 80pts

Troops - 16x Termagaunts - 80pts

Troops - 16x Termagaunts - 80pts

Troops - 20x Hormagaunts - 210pts
Toxin Sacks
Mycetic Spore: Twinlinked Deathspitters

Fast Attack - Harpy - 160pts

I've been using the Termagaunts as ablative shielding for my Warriors.

The Hive Tyrant is there for the +1 to reserve rolls as I was having trouble being outmatched for points on the board. Similarly, the Lictors were added to try and get my stuff on the board where and when I need it.

I tried using a Carnifex in Mycetic Spore but it was just getting turned into a fine mush by my meltaguns so I swapped it for a Harpy to cut down on points and give me a turn of shooting with it if nothing else.

I'm unsure how effective the Doom is against mech armies, a mycetic spore seemed very apt given its special rules. I've seen nothing to protect it against ID however, which makes me wonder why everyone complains about it being so cheesy.

I'm unsure whether Toxin Sacks or Adrenaline Glands are best for Hormagaunts - I'm only willing to spend the points on one or the other and it seemed to me that Toxin Sacks were the better value but I've not run the Mathhammer over this. II'm particularly annoyed by the consistent inability of this brood to so much as dent 1 member of a 5 man (1x missile launcher, 4x bolter) fire-team.

Any tips from experienced Nid players as to what I'm doing wrong?

Wraith

2011-04-02, 11:01 AM

Sorry, I lost patience after two minutes of their babbling, but if it is that thing to the left... that doesn't look Necron at all, it looks like cardboard model of Greek temple cut in some places and painted black, in, like, 5 minutes. They were too lazy to even paint Necron glyphs on it

It gets slightly better towards the end, but yeah.... I've tried to watch Beasts of War on YouTube and the guys in it (particularly the older Irish guy, but he's not alone) ramble on, and on, and on.....

Still, I've seen far worse April Fool's jokes :smalltongue:

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-02, 11:27 AM

May I please play in this meta-game where wasted points are not laughed at or brutally torn to shreds?

Effective, yes. Efficient? Hell no.

70 Points each, before Musical Wound shenanigans and other upgrades (like a Painboy), I assume you're looking at a 700-900 point unit, not to mention the Warboss you've got to make them Troops (right?).

It reeks of 'all in one basket'-ness. Most armies can deal with this unit, with about half the points. I suppose it depends on your meta-game and what you're likely to deal with.

Actually, with painboy and all, it only comes out around a little over 500. I've played against Imperial Guad, Tau, Space Marines, Tyrannids, other Orks, and Sisters of Battle, and have yet to see the squad go down to less than two or fail to meet its objective.

FlyingScanian

2011-04-02, 12:28 PM

Actually, with painboy and all, it only comes out around a little over 500. I've played against Imperial Guad, Tau, Space Marines, Tyrannids, other Orks, and Sisters of Battle, and have yet to see the squad go down to less than two or fail to meet its objective.

You do realize that a single biker nob with Power Klaw costs 70 pts (And a biker painboy costs 75)? Kindly redo teh math for your list or avoid hyperbole...

Incidentally, I'm currently, among other things, building the following unit:
6 Nobz
Painboy, cybork body, bike
Powerklaw, Waaagh! Banner, cybork body, bike
Powerklaw, cybork body, bike
Big Choppa, bosspole, cybork body, bike
Big Choppa, cybork body, bike
Big Choppa, cybork body, bike
415 pts

Quite clearly, you do NOT get 10 full biker nobz for about 500 pts, unless they're almost bare bones...

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-02, 12:51 PM

Inquisitor D

2011-04-02, 01:31 PM

They don't ALL have power klaws. Most of them just have big choppas. I just throw at least one power klaw into any unit that can have it because whenever I don't that unit winds up getting killed by a tank who's armor it couldn't pierce.

Power Klaw+Tank=Fun

And this makes your previous comment completely different. You said "Whats bad about 10 PK nobs on bikes. Now you've changed your story to just one PK. They're totally different things.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-02, 02:10 PM

And this makes your previous comment completely different. You said "Whats bad about 10 PK nobs on bikes. Now you've changed your story to just one PK. They're totally different things.

It's only hyperbole, not the end of the world.

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-02, 02:16 PM

Ah, sorry about the confusion there.
But yeah, I found the normal warbikers are too easy to kill with 'negates cover' weapons, so 6-10 nob warbikers with big choppas and a few power klaws and a painboy thrown in are one of my first choices when building an army. If I throw my usual warboss in there, they count as a troops choice!

Speaking of my warboss, Ragnatz da 'Eadstompa has never died, rarely takes wounds, and has taken down armies that killed his entire retinue on his own.
I have come to the conclusion that he is a BAMF.

Also, I'm painting the ammo runt I've got right here just for him. :D

crazedloon

2011-04-02, 02:18 PM

Elite - 3x Lictors - 195pts

these guys are pretty bad. Their ability does not come into play until they are already in play so with the tyrant in the list they are useless for aiding reserve rolls. they come in turn 2 (on a 3 due to the tyrant) than next turn they can not improve the reserve roll to better than a 2+ (since the tyrant is still aiding that roll.)

In combat they are lacking because though they have high strength and rending they have a low armor so they have a good chance of getting killed outright by a much smaller unit. If you do use them than use them to hunt smaller non elite units like devastators/long fangs, squatting scouts, or tanks out line of sight.

I would suggest dropping these guys however and take something else.

Elite - 2x Zoanthropes - 120pts
they need a spore, even if they do not drop to close to your opponent they will have less turns where missile launchers will be shot a them. Than you can also guarantee they will kill a tank the turn they come in (due to range.)

Troops - 3x Tyranid Warriors - 120pts
2x Rending Claws, Devourer
1x Rending Claws, Venom Cannon

the higher strength may seem awesome but the barbed strangler is cheaper, hits more dudes (more dude hit-> more wounds -> more dead even at lower strength) and the lost AP is rarely relevant (pretty much only vs tau or scouts but they tend to have cover anyway) Also the extra strength will not allow you to deal with tanks.

The claws are good but I prefer boneswords for the anti meq power they bring as well as the fear they put in IC. But no matter the weapon you go with I would suggest trying to scrape the points to give hem toxin sacs because the reroll to wound vs pretty much everything is just that good.

Troops - 16x Termagaunts - 80pts

Troops - 16x Termagaunts - 80pts

Troops - 16x Termagaunts - 80pts

I feel you would be better dropping 2 units and getting a tervigon. He can spit out the missing units and he allows you to take adrenal glands/toxin sacs for the lot for only 20 points. Add onto that the awesome psychic powers and he is well worth it.

Troops - 20x Hormagaunts - 210pts
Toxin Sacks
Mycetic Spore: Twinlinked Deathspitters

these guys should run across the board they are reliably fast due to their fleet rule and if they are being shot the rest of your better models are not.

---------

you need more anti tank in the army (bet than I think you may already know that) 'nids best anti tank are hive guard. I would suggest dropping the lictors and doom for 2 units of these guys as they will make their points up simply by breaking transports and thsu getting their squishy innards to come out to die.

Tarinaky

2011-04-02, 02:47 PM

Inquisitor D

2011-04-02, 02:53 PM

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-02, 02:59 PM

Yeah, nob bikers have an automatic 4+cover or armor save from their bikes. Throw in the 5+invulnerable cybork body and the painboy and wearing them down takes FOREVER.

crazedloon

2011-04-02, 03:25 PM

What put me off about the Tervigon is that it's a Monstrous Creature that, when killed, kills off a bunch of Termagaunts. This in my mind makes it worse than a Tau Etherial which at least has the ability to hide.

Yes it may kill a few when it dies but again it take alot to kill one and all that high power firepower killing the tervigon is not killing warriors, throps, hive guard, harpies.... ect. Also he can give himself FNP and take even more heavy fire with less problems.

I tried giving the zoanthropes a spore but I felt I missed out on the ability to nail armour from turn 1. I've been using the Termagaunts to protect them from incoming fire (since they're infantry they can't be targeted through other units unless I'm missing something)

The problem with thropes walking is that most vehicles which actually need their specialized firepower will chill in the backof the board well out of range until the thropes are dead without loosing any effectiveness due to much longer ranged weapons.

Also you can shoot through another unit, the unit behind the first just gets a cover save (4+) so no help for a thrope.

Tarinaky

2011-04-02, 03:44 PM

Okay, the ability to shoot through enemy infantry changes stuff.

I followed your recommendations, mostly and came up with this:

=Tyranids 1,500pts=

HQ - Hive Tyrant - 195pts
Hive Commander, Leech Essence, Paroxysm

Elite - 2x Zoanthropes - 170pts
Mycetic Spore: Twinlinked Deathspitters

Elite - 2x Zoanthropes - 170pts
Mycetic Spore: Twinlinked Deathspitters

Elite - 3x Hive Guard - 150pts

Troops - Tervigon - 195pts
Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Gland
Catalyst

Troops - 3x Tyranid Warriors - 140pts
2x Rending Claws, Devourer
1x Bonesword, Lashwhip and Barbed Strangler
Toxin Sacs

Troops - 3x Tyranid Warriors - 140pts
2x Rending Claws, Devourer
1x Bonesword, Lashwhip and Barbed Strangler
Toxin Sacs

Troops - 16x Termagaunts - 80pts

Troops - 16x Termagaunts - 80pts

Troops - 20x Hormagaunts - 160pts
Toxin Sacs

Fast Attack - Harpy - 160pts

But it's still 20 points shy of 1k5.

Edit: Added Toxin Sacs to the Hormagaunts.

Tome

2011-04-02, 03:44 PM

What put me off about the Tervigon is that it's a Monstrous Creature that, when killed, kills off a bunch of Termagaunts. This in my mind makes it worse than a Tau Etherial which at least has the ability to hide.

I tried giving the zoanthropes a spore but I felt I missed out on the ability to nail armour from turn 1. I've been using the Termagaunts to protect them from incoming fire (since they're infantry they can't be targeted through other units unless I'm missing something)

Am I wrong on either count?

Nothing is worse than Ethereals. You can't hide them away either, because they need to have LoS to your units. They can't fight themselves and have no defences to speak of. The benefit they give is a minor boost to Leadership tests. And when they die, your entire army has to take an Ld test or flee off the board, in an army with low Ld and a tendency to stay as close to the edge of the board as possible. On the plus side, I suppose they're fairly cheap (except you have to take a Commander anyway, because they're 1+).

The consequences for a Tervigon dying aren't anywhere near as bad. You lose the Synapse and buffs it was providing and take a few wounds on any units of Termagants with 6". Doing the math, it averages out to 4.375 unsaved wounds. If you're really worried about those S3 AP- hits, just hide it away in the midfield and make sure you move the Termagants it spawns at least 6" away from it. You'll probably want to take one the Psychic Powers instead of the Glands/Sacs if you decide to do that though.

The Tervigon itself is also fairly hard to kill, thanks to being a T6 W6 Monstrous Creature with a 3+ save and optional FNP. It's not exactly great at shooting or assault for a MC, but it's a hell of a lot better than an Ethereal. It's also scoring, and pumps out even more scoring units for every turn it survives. Which it then buffs. That's a lot of nice things in one package, for a fairly reasonable points cost and a relatively minor drawback.

On the subject of Zoanthropes, you probably weren't going to be doing any first turn tank busting anyway, what with their 18" range. Better to put them in a Mycetic Spore where at least they won't get shot at until they're in range to actually shoot back.

EDIT Darn, Ninja'd. Or should I say "Lictor'd"? :smallcool:

Have you considered taking Genestealers instead of the Hormagaunts? Outflanking Genestealers can be a right bloody pain to fight.

Irbis

2011-04-02, 04:26 PM

EDIT Darn, Ninja'd. Or should I say "Lictor'd"? :smallcool:

I'd say 'Callidus'd :P

Craftworld

2011-04-02, 06:54 PM

I'd say 'Callidus'd :P

But he is talking about the Tyranids...:smallconfused:

Cheesegear

2011-04-02, 06:56 PM

Speaking of my warboss, Ragnatz da 'Eadstompa has never died, rarely takes wounds, and has taken down armies that killed his entire retinue on his own.
I have come to the conclusion that he is a BAMF.

Sadly, I must conclude that your meta-game is...Easy. Orks are generally regarded as the worst non-Necron, non-Tau army out there, and, either you have a build that defies the meta-game (please post your list), or your opponents are bad.

Incomp

2011-04-02, 07:14 PM

Really? You'd say that Orks are worse off than Daemons?

I haven't fought a competent Ork player in about a year, (and the last time I did, it was at a tournament, and it didn't go well...) so I honestly don't know.

Winterwind

2011-04-02, 07:27 PM

Competently built Daemons, ideally with some special characters (like Fateweaver) are pretty damn scary and powerful, actually. They are just not reliable, so, if there is a tournament, they may steamroll four games but then be utterly crushed on the fifth game due to some bad luck, which makes it difficult for them to reach the highmost rankings, but if the dice do not abandon them in the most critical moments they are a foe to be reckoned with. It's just that they depend on a few critical dice rolls more than every other army does.

So I got myself the Grey Knights codex now... and it doesn't look so bad overall - in fact, they look like a pretty well balanced and interesting to play and play against codex to me - except for one thing. What's with these Terminators? They are strictly better than Space Marine Terminators, with a ton of special rules and additional equipment, but they are priced exactly the same? Huh?

At least they are not Assault Terminators, but still, why aren't they more expensive? Usually Games Workshop at least makes something that is strictly better than something else more expensive - it may be not nearly enough more expensive, but this is... most perturbatory... :smallconfused:

Cheesegear

2011-04-02, 07:35 PM

Really? You'd say that Orks are worse off than Daemons?

Yes. Orks do not do well against Daemons. Or anything that includes Psykers, mostly. Which is everyone.

In related news, there are far, far, far more Daemon players than I thought. Since I recently learned that GW Blackshrits are frantically e-mailing each others' stores trying to figure out what to tell Daemon players about the Grey Knights.

Somebody (not a Blackshirt) told me;
Cut off all their bases, or get circle-to-square bases* (I remember seeing them once, but I can't remember where), and play Fantasy. Matt Ward wrote that Army Book too and it. Is. Balls.

EDIT: *It's a square base, with an indentured circle in it, so you can put a model with a circle-base inside it, and pretend to have a square base. If anyone has seen anything like it, please tell me. Preferably link me, since it's probably online somewhere.

Irbis

2011-04-02, 07:51 PM

So I got myself the Grey Knights codex now... and it doesn't look so bad overall - in fact, they look like a pretty well balanced and interesting to play and play against codex to me - except for one thing. What's with these Terminators? They are strictly better than Space Marine Terminators, with a ton of special rules and additional equipment, but they are priced exactly the same? Huh?

Strictly better? :smallconfused:

They're 5++. And, compared to Wolf/Chaos Terminators, almost exactly the same, sans Force Weapon, they're 7-10 points more expensive. So, more expensive.

If there is a thing that is strictly cheaper and better than others for the price, it's the Hammernators.

In related news, there are far, far, far more Daemon players than I thought. Since I recently learned that GW Blackshrits are frantically e-mailing each others' stores trying to figure out what to tell Daemon players about the Grey Knights.

I'd tell the salesmen to man up, and inform the players that the "scary" GK are now WS4 S4. Their replacement for this, Force Weapons? Tell the players to look at their rules, and say "Huh, Force Weapons? So What?".

Then, you can go over the fact daemons will be 2-5 times more numerous, that GK are MEQ that still die in droves to daemons shooting/melee, and that Khorne units can take 2++ anti-GK wargear for peanuts.

I don't know how telling your customers scary tales that might lead to them stopping being customers, on untested army rumours, is going to be viable business model, but maybe it somehow works in down under.

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-02, 07:53 PM

Waitwaitwait...Are you saying orks are easy to beat or that they're overpowered?

Because if you want overpowered, you can talk to the Space Wolves over there, or the new Blood Angels. Chaos, maybe?

Or really anything Matt Ward likes?
Good Gork and Mork I hate that man.

I hear people complain about the Necrons and the new tyrannid psykers a lot, but if you know what you're doing and look at their downsides, they are just as easy to beat as, say, Imperial Guard? IG are pretty well balanced. Oh, and Dark Eldar. You just have to know what to do.

What annoys me is people who play Space Wolves and think they're all great or whatever. Space Wolves is the army you give your ten year old son in the hopes he'll never have to go against an experienced player and admit defeat. I hear people say that about basic space marines, too, but basic space marines are pretty well balanced. They're just forgiving if you screw up thanks to their armor.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-02, 08:06 PM

Grey Knight's can't ignore invulnerable saves with their guns anymore, and going from S6 WS5 2A to S4 WS4 1A power weapons is a downgrade against daemons.

Warp quake seems to be the real thing that wrecks daemons in the Grey Knights book. Dark Exocommunication (the remove gifts power) would as well, but its a bit too specific for an all comers list and rare enough that winged monstrous creatures can avoid it. Those nasty grenades too, but they also make those nasty halberds redundant.

What's with these Terminators? They are strictly better than Space Marine Terminators, with a ton of special rules and additional equipment, but they are priced exactly the same? Huh?

At least they are not Assault Terminators, but still, why aren't they more expensive? Usually Games Workshop at least makes something that is strictly better than something else more expensive - it may be not nearly enough more expensive, but this is... most perturbatory... :smallconfused:

Its only the psychic powers and grenades that make them out right better. Their choice of nemesis weapons aren't really that superior to having a power fist. Without the grenades, nemesis halberds would kind of suck.

I'd rather have a pair of lightning claws over a pair of nemesis falchions. The fact that the Grey Knight keeps his storm bolter just makes them even.

The halberd being only S4 would balance it compared to other terminator weapons. Its being able to hammer hand multiple times with an independant character until you get I6 relic blades that makes it rediculous.

The sword is just an old storm shield, so its kind of naff.

The warding stave costs points and is limited, so it isn't really that bad.

Hammernators still have a decent chance of smashing grey knights terminators into the ground.

If there is a thing that is strictly cheaper and better than others for the price, it's the Hammernators.

Vanilla hammernators. Not so much blood angels or space wolf ones.

Then, you can go over the fact daemons will be 2-5 times more numerous, that GK are MEQ that still die in droves to daemons shooting/melee, and that Khorne units can take 2++ anti-GK wargear for peanuts.

Daemons? More numerous than GK? Barely. I've written Grey Knight lists with more models on the table than my Blood Angels list (which usually makes people remark at how many marines I field) without any sort of henchman abuse.

The good daemon units are expensive. GK have free choice between good cheap units and good expensive units.

Daemon shooting sucks the moment mech comes into play. When I have foot sloggers each unit of flamers my enemy has basically means I might as well just deploy one less unit of marines. With my mech list I just laugh.

Anyone who takes a few super terminator units with no transports and no warpquake or Cortez is going to get nuked when the flamers come down. A decent list won't have that problem.

and that Khorne units can take 2++ anti-GK wargear for peanuts.

Khorne units that nobody takes and are worthless against everything else (excluding skulltaker)?

The fact that Daemons can tailor to beat Grey Knights doesn't mean Daemons aren't screwed.

Squark

2011-04-02, 09:11 PM

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-02, 09:28 PM

Yeah, Necrons can regenerate and have crazy weapons and some good armor, but their point value isn't all that good and they only regenerate under the right circumstances. I played a five-way game where a single IG squad with some meltaguns and an executioner tank blasted their way through half a necron army and two space marines tactical squads (Not the Matt Ward kind of space marines, the people I were playing with had class, damnit!) before my nob bikers came through with their klaws and big choppas and well...

Let's just say Commissar Stephen Helvetica didn't live to see better days.

Craftworld

2011-04-02, 10:12 PM

If I may, why does everyone seem to hate or very sorely dislike Matt Ward?:smallconfused: I am not sure, but he must have done something bad to get this bad rap...

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-02, 10:19 PM

Craftworld

2011-04-02, 10:26 PM

He ruined the fluff, made the cheesiest codexes, ruined SPESS MAHREENS, might ruin Necrons, ruined a bunch of other stuff I forget, and I'm pretty sure he has wet dreams about Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines making out with the reputation his fluff gives them. He also retconned all the good stuff.

Can you or someone give me examples because I am still not sure as to how really he did such things...:smallfrown:

Inquisitor D

2011-04-02, 10:37 PM

Can you or someone give me examples because I am still not sure as to how really he did such things...:smallfrown:

'crons and Bangels are BFF. Nothing more needs to be said.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-04-02, 10:40 PM

He ruined the fluff, made the cheesiest codexes, ruined SPESS MAHREENS, might ruin Necrons, ruined a bunch of other stuff I forget, and I'm pretty sure he has wet dreams about Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines making out with the reputation his fluff gives them. He also retconned all the good stuff.

I'm just going to keep this short and brief ...

I like Matt Ward. He writes good codices (IMO) and deserves maybe 1/20th of the internet hate he gets. But that isn't really new about internet hate.

I mean I completely agree with you all! Down with the tyrant. please don't hurt me

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-02, 10:43 PM

Can you or someone give me examples because I am still not sure as to how really he did such things...:smallfrown:

The Ultramarines have now never ever been defeated by anything. Blood Angels can drop whatever they want. Necrons and Blood Angels are BFFs. All Space Marines worship the Ultramarines, all Space Marine fluff is about the Ultramarines, Space Marines that aren't Ultramarines are actually lesser space marines, etc.

Inquisitor D

2011-04-02, 11:19 PM

Can you or someone give me examples because I am still not sure as to how really he did such things...:smallfrown:

Relevent (http://1d4chan.org/images/1/11/Matt_Ward_At_Work.jpg)

Inquisitor D

2011-04-02, 11:20 PM

The Ultramarines have now never ever been defeated by anything. Blood Angels can drop whatever they want. Necrons and Blood Angels are BFFs. All Space Marines worship the Ultramarines, all Space Marine fluff is about the Ultramarines, Space Marines that aren't Ultramarines are actually lesser space marines, etc.

{Redacted}

You are not to send people to that place. Least of all from here. PROMOTIONS are highly frowned upon 'round these parts.

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-02, 11:37 PM

He wrote the Daemons of Chaos book for Fantasy. This was so overpowered it single-handedly annihilated the game balance of the system.
When called on this he basically said "Well, yeah. That was the point."

And the Grey Knights look to fill a similar role to me. I mean, I've looked at the codex a lot, and talked about it a lot, and it all seems like you could throw a dart at the book, take 3/6 of whatever it lands on, and win.

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-02, 11:41 PM

You are not to send people to that place. Least of all from here. PROMOTIONS are highly frowned upon 'round these parts.

Err...yeah. I'll go edit that out.

Turcano

2011-04-03, 12:47 AM

If I may, why does everyone seem to hate or very sorely dislike Matt Ward?:smallconfused: I am not sure, but he must have done something bad to get this bad rap...

I said this on 1d4chan:

Still not convinced that Matt Ward needs to be stopped? Just turn to page 48 in your copy of Codex: Space Marines and read the title you find at the top of the page:

The Zeist Campaign
That's right. Matt Ward put a reference to Highlander 2: The Quickening into the Space Marines codex. That's how much he hates you.

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-03, 01:27 AM

I said this on 1d4chan:

Still not convinced that Matt Ward needs to be stopped? Just turn to page 48 in your copy of Codex: Space Marines and read the title you find at the top of the page:

The Zeist Campaign
That's right. Matt Ward put a reference to Highlander 2: The Quickening into the Space Marines codex. That's how much he hates you.

Now hate him back.

Wait, you put that in there?
SO. AWESOME.

Though I must say, I need to work on that problem I have. You know, how I'm ALWAYS ANGRY! ALL THE TIME!

Cheesegear

2011-04-03, 07:06 AM

Waitwaitwait...Are you saying orks are easy to beat or that they're overpowered?

Easy to beat. Currently, all the 'best' Ork lists use 3-4 Battlewagons and don't use Nob Bikers (or, at least, not as many as you'd think). Anything else...Isn't competitive on the high end.

I hear people complain about the Necrons

People complain about Necrons? Mostly we just laugh at them... :smallconfused:

they are just as easy to beat as, say, Imperial Guard? IG are pretty well balanced.

Imperial Guard are currently the second-most unbalanced 'dex in the game (and it's not even a Matt Ward creation!). What meta-game do you play in?

EDIT: Third. Grey Knights are in.

Can you or someone give me examples because I am still not sure as to how really he did such things...:smallfrown:

Basically, Matt Ward took 15 years worth of Space Marine fluff...And ignored it, then proceeded to break the game.

Winterwind

2011-04-03, 07:23 AM

Its only the psychic powers and grenades that make them out right better. Their choice of nemesis weapons aren't really that superior to having a power fist. Without the grenades, nemesis halberds would kind of suck.

I'd rather have a pair of lightning claws over a pair of nemesis falchions. The fact that the Grey Knight keeps his storm bolter just makes them even.

The halberd being only S4 would balance it compared to other terminator weapons. Its being able to hammer hand multiple times with an independant character until you get I6 relic blades that makes it rediculous.

The sword is just an old storm shield, so its kind of naff.

The warding stave costs points and is limited, so it isn't really that bad.

Hammernators still have a decent chance of smashing grey knights terminators into the ground.Except they can trade in their sword for a daemonhammer at zero cost. In which case it looks like this:

Space Marine Terminator:
2+/5++ save, storm bolter, powerfist

Grey Knight Terminator:
2+/5++ save, storm bolter, daemonhammer (like powerfist, except better in every regard: It can instant-death a monstrous creature, which it is good at wounding, and will decrease the Initative of the creature to 1 if it has Eternal Warrior. Also, has a minor chance of instant-killing daemons)
In addition to this, they can bring up their hammers to S10 if they wish, for extra vehicle killing power, have the Aegis, and have their anti-psi-grenades (the other grenades have no purpose if they have daemonhammers) and Preferred Enemy (Daemons).

That's quite a lot of advantages to get at zero cost and without getting some disadvantage in return. There is absolutely nothing regular Terminators are better at than Grey Knight Terminators with daemonhammers, but there is this whole list of benefits Grey Knights have... that's apparently not worth any points at all.

Now, I would still rather go up against these than Space Marine Assault Terminators. But even so, how can a unit that is better than some other unit in every regard, with no drawbacks, cost the exact same amount of points (40/model)?

Key word bolded. How do you beat Necrons? Have an army.

We suck. :smallfrown:This kind of defeatism and most Necron forums trying to brainwash every new player into believing this nonsense being the biggest problems Necrons suffer from. :smallwink:

Yes, they are not as powerful in the high end of the spectrum, making it hard for them to compete in tournaments (though there are certain Necron builds that still manage to compete - admittedly, rather unintuitive Necron builds that work very, very differently than what one usually expects from Necrons), but in the casual scene, they are as powerful an army as any other. Many casual lists struggle dearly with dealing with Necrons; most casual players I know usually say things like "Necrons? Phew, I hope I'll never go up against those again! Last time I did, I was utterly slaughtered!".

So, yeah, I think at least in the casual scene, the only problem Necrons have is one of morale, not one of too weak codex.

EDIT: Third. Grey Knights are in.Do you really think Grey Knights are going to be so unbalanced? They don't look so bad to me - the only unit that I think allows for some serious shenanigans are Inquisitorial Retinues, but even those I don't think will be game-breaking...

Squark

2011-04-03, 07:24 AM

Would someone please explain this Blood Angel-Necron Alliance? Because... It sounds so stupid I can't even think of how it could exist.

EDIT: Found summary. Now must find Warscythe and Kill Matt Ward.

Cheesegear

2011-04-03, 07:36 AM

EDIT: Found summary. Now must find Warscythe and Kill Matt Ward.

Actually, in Australia, people write letters to him that sound pretty much like this. It's why he isn't coming to GD Australia.

Tarinaky

2011-04-03, 08:44 AM

I'm just glad I gave up caring about fluff in favour of complaining that Space Marines don't have anywhere to stick spare bolter ammo. My complaints seem far more pedantic :p

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-03, 08:50 AM

Do you really think Grey Knights are going to be so unbalanced? They don't look so bad to me - the only unit that I think allows for some serious shenanigans are Inquisitorial Retinues, but even those I don't think will be game-breaking...

Grey Knight Strike Marines cost about as much as you would expect their upgrades to be on a Marine.
It just goes up from there.

Penguinizer

2011-04-03, 08:53 AM

The reasonably priced strength 8 autocannon dreadnoughts are also really nice. There's no real point in even making it a wargear option. At 10 points they might just as well have upped the price by a bit and given them the autocannons straight.

Winterwind

2011-04-03, 09:08 AM

Grey Knight Strike Marines cost about as much as you would expect their upgrades to be on a Marine.
It just goes up from there.The thing is, they bring less models to the table while not being in any way better protected against shooting (worse, in some cases). They don't have pistols to get their attack number up, so against a horde with low armour saves, they are actually worse off than actual Marines. Elite close combat will overwhelm them due to sheer volume of attacks when charging them while giving them few attacks to strike back with. Against many armies, they will actually be worse off than regular Space Marines - for example, my Eldar will most likely be just happy that there are less Space Marines with no Storm Shields standing on the other side and proceed to shoot them to death. If they ever got to close combat they would die anyway, regardless of whether this were Grey Knights or regular Space Marines, so the Grey Knights being better in close combat doesn't matter - them being worse at taking damage does. The same applies to any other shooty list.

I honestly don't see any unit in that codex that could make Grey Knights so incredibly more powerful than everything else. The only really nasty thing I can think of is a mixed unit of Jokaero and Crusaders/Warriors with Storm Shields, and that's going to be expensive as heck and still die to some massed fire just fine.

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-03, 09:11 AM

They don't have pistols to get their attack number up, so against a horde with low armour saves, they are actually worse off than actual Marines.

Purifi~ers.
e: Also Psy~cannons and storm bolters.

Elite close combat will overwhelm them due to sheer volume of attacks when charging them while giving them few attacks to strike back with.

Psy~cannons.

Strike Squads also only cost four points more than a standard Marine. They're only going to have some 20% fewer bodies, and just as many - if not more shots.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-03, 09:28 AM

Matt Ward didn't write the Space Wolf book or the Imperial Guard book. His 40k books haven't been that unbalanced. Cost changes in the blood angels book from the space marines one shows that he even notices occaisonally when things are under/over costed and tries to fix them.

I have no idea how much the codex writer is to blame for the rules in the codex (the fluff on the other hand is mostly their fault).

I wouldn't be surprised if the sculpting team designed the sanguinary guard and Matt Ward was just forced to put them in.

I've heard people criticise Matt Ward for turning blood angels into SPAACE VAMPIRES! Which is rediculous since that's always been an element of Blood angels fluff that fluctuates in importance with every book and the latest book doesn't have it that prominant.

Looking at the current Tau book I'd much rather see a Matt Ward version.

Grey Knight Strike Marines cost about as much as you would expect their upgrades to be on a Marine.
It just goes up from there.

That doesn't mean anything. Vannila marine terminators are exactly the same. The problem is how over priced the upgrades are on units like vanguard veterans, not Grey Knight Strike Squads.

Penguinizer

2011-04-03, 09:30 AM

I think the power level concern comes from the Daemons book.

It was horrible. Daemons dominated all of WHFB. The few competitors were Dark Elves and Vampire Counts. At least the edition change fixed things. The tradeoff is that Daemons are kinda meh now. I'm happy with that though.

Timberwolf

2011-04-03, 09:30 AM

I have come to the conclusion that I am not going to run Assault marines against Grey Knights. This is due to them costing 2 points per model more, yet all having power weapons and all the other goodness they get for free. This means that approximately half my models may be gathering dust for a while.

The only unit I can deploy with an equal number of power weapons is Vanguard, where if I want to have that equal number, I need to pay 15 points per weapon and an equal cost per marine, where I don't get the extra toys (I do get an extra attack against most Grey Knights though). Plus get Storm Shields if I want to survive to use them since those wretched Halberds raise the initiative of the Knights and I will lose a fair few if I run into those.

Now, the Eldar get Banshees, they all have power weapons and strike at initiative 10, but they're also strength 3, toughness 3, +4 save I believe (but could be wrong). At the most, assuming the most Banshee happy Eldar player in the world, I will face 3 squads max.

The Grey Knights get this as troops ? And no particular huge extra cost for this ?

The hell ?

I looked through that codex and I kept looking for the extra "0"'s on the end of the points cost. I was rather disappointed. If it wasn't for the metric ton of power weapons making the vast majority of close combat infantry armies suddenly lose a whole load of effectiveness all of a sudden, along with the entirely free upgrades, such as the falchions that give +1 attack (that anyone else would have to pay for) etc etc, I'd say "Ok, fair enough", but all that together means that I'm going to be exercising my shootier options for a while.

I just bought a second Stormraven. The first one has been great, but it's a bit all my eggs in one basket. I do not feel that I will regret this purchase in the light of the upcoming power weapon death.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-03, 10:13 AM

Squark

2011-04-03, 10:38 AM

Actually, in Australia, people write letters to him that sound pretty much like this. It's why he isn't coming to GD Australia.

Fortunately for him, I doubt I could actually lift a warscythe, so he's in no danger. Plus there's the matter of leaving the solar system.

Still, sacking him would probably improve 40k fluff in the long run, just from that fluff alone.

EDIT: Also, can someone please help me to prove to my metagame that three monoliths in an 1850 list is a bad idea?

Winterwind

2011-04-03, 10:57 AM

Purifi~ers.What about them?
They do have more attacks, true, but they are also even more expensive. Khornate Berserkers are cheaper than them, and get more attacks in, before them, that hit more often, if they get the charge.

e: Also Psy~cannons and storm bolters.

Psy~cannons.Don't make them any better in close combat.

Strike Squads also only cost four points more than a standard Marine. They're only going to have some 20% fewer bodies, and just as many - if not more shots.Which still means less enemies to kill, and it won't make them outshoot a real shooty list.

I think the power level concern comes from the Daemons book.

It was horrible. Daemons dominated all of WHFB. The few competitors were Dark Elves and Vampire Counts. At least the edition change fixed things. The tradeoff is that Daemons are kinda meh now. I'm happy with that though.Oh, I couldn't agree more. That was a nightmare. But, it's much better now, and I haven't seen him fabricate anything of the sorts afterwards.

EDIT: Also, can someone please help me to prove to my metagame that three monoliths in an 1850 list is a bad idea?It's not.

These tournament-winning Necron lists I mentioned above (I think you may have missed that I responded to you - we posted at almost the same time) use triple monoliths as major part of their strategy.

Turcano

2011-04-03, 11:41 AM

The terminators with halberds are another problem. Just make sure you pack some long range plasma.

Unless one of the models has a Plasma Siphon, which makes all plasma weapons used on the model or ones near it shoot at BS 1.

Nameless Ghost

2011-04-03, 11:57 AM

However I'm pretty sure the Plasma Syphon can only be found on certain Inquisitors, and if you're just taking an Inquisitor to protect one unit of Terminators from plasma... well that's a very poor use of a HQ slot.

crazedloon

2011-04-03, 12:41 PM

What about them?
They do have more attacks, true, but they are also even more expensive. Khornate Berserkers are cheaper than them, and get more attacks in, before them, that hit more often, if they get the charge.

they are 26 points a model. I say 26 because you will be upgrading them to have halberds. that puts them at 5 points more than a berserker.

so even units mean 8 purifiers to 10 berserkers.

berserkers on the charge:
-purifiers have a good chance of getting their power off (due to no hoods in the chaos list) which kills 3.333 the berserkers evening the odds before blows are struck
-purifiers than strike first due to Init 6, 17 attacks 8.5 hits 4.25 dead
-berserkers than strike with their remaining 2.666 dudes getting 9.666 attacks 6.444 hits, 4.29 wounds and only 1.43 dead

this is without taking a real game where the purifiers are going to have 2 psycannons which will pop the berserkers rhino once it is in range, than claim at least 1 or 2 as they run across the board

----------
They are the strongest unit in the book (IMHO) and they are arguably the only "broken" thing in the book. You just have to deal with them at range, because they are only slightly better than a normal strike squad due to 1-2 extra psycannons, which is only a problem for an assault heavy list.

Squark

2011-04-03, 12:46 PM

You know, I think I figured out what Matt Ward's next big retcon will be; Establishing an Astrates Chapter tied directly to the Imperial Guard.:smallbiggrin: or making the Sisters of Battle into Female SMs.

I'm kidding... hopefully.

Wraith

2011-04-03, 01:01 PM

I honestly don't see any unit in that codex that could make Grey Knights so incredibly more powerful than everything else. The only really nasty thing I can think of is a mixed unit of Jokaero and Crusaders/Warriors with Storm Shields, and that's going to be expensive as heck and still die to some massed fire just fine.

Couldn't agree more.

While Grey Knights have some fairly kick-ass units and abilities available, the exact same thing can be said of the last few Codices that were released and the outrage at them was no less heated than it is now despite that completely abating within a matter of weeks.

"ZOMG Flying Psychic Dreadnoughts! Space Marine 'Thunderhawks Gunships' that don't completely suck! Space Viking riding giant broken cybernetic wolves! A special Hive Tyrant that is better in every conceivable way AND makes your troops better too! No one will ever be able to beat that! (Oh, wait.... :smalltongue: ) It's all just broken!"

Or, as I like to call it, it's "more interesting than 3rd and 4th Edition". :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

At the very least, Matt Ward - for whatever his faults be they real, exaggerated or just plain imagined - has remained consistent with the other 5th Edition books. He's taken an old, crappy army and made it much, much better; it really shouldn't be a surprise by now that the Flavour of the Week is also the Most Powerful Looking (On Paper) Army available, because they all are.
And I feel very safe in saying that the community would have gone absolutely ape-s*** crazy if GW had released a book of overcosted, underpowered Grey Knights just like their last Codex. We can't have it both ways, and I for one would rather the former and adapt to a new metagame than to endure the latter, wasting time, money and effort at every point along the way.

As for the concerns about Grey Knights now being undercosted, I've just sat and rewrote my GK army in both 4th and 5th Codices; the difference between them is '7 GK Interceptors and a Dreadknight'. If I was being completely, unerringly WYSIWYG about it - like paying for Halberds on all the metal models that I have and so on - the entire difference would be '7 GK Interceptors *OR* a Dreadknight'.

35 infantry and a Tank, versus 42 infantry, a Tank and a Monstrous Creature. Doesn't sound so bad now, does it?
Now go ahead and count up the difference between a 4th and 5th Edition Imperial Guard or Blood Angels list, I'm pretty sure it will be a far more shocking conclusion, and yet somehow we managed to deal with it and go about our Gaming Nights and Tournaments unperturbed. :smallsmile:

Tarinaky

2011-04-03, 01:36 PM

Part of why the flavour of the month is more powerful than the armies that precede it is because everyone has solid, bullet proof and tested tactics for dealing with other armies. You stick an army with unknown statlines on the table and it becomes a lot harder to deal with it or predict how it will be used.

That's why it's always worth, before the battle, making your opponent go through their army carefully explaining all the statlines and all the rules of everything.

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-03, 01:50 PM

Orks aren't exactly weak, they're just hard for a new guy to play. Necrons, if played well, are good until you get melta or plasma guns or get into close combat from what I've seen, and I don't really think Imperial Guard are all that unbalanced. I mean, their infantry die in larger numbers than ork boyz and all you need to get rid of their tanks is a fast attack squad with anti-tank capability.

Now, onto the matter of orks.
I have played in tournaments with them, WYSIWYG tournaments, using my roomate's figurines because I currently only have about two mobs worth of orks painted. I recently played an apocalypse game. I have never used more than three battle wagons. I always use nob bikers and deffkoptas, and most if not all of my mobs have 1-3 upgrades and are deployed at full model capacity.
I have now played as orks in 33 games.
I have tied four times.
I have never lost, no matter how desperately close I came to defeat.

Why? Not because of playing against bad players, or people new to the game, not because of some crazy extra rules, but because orks don't care how many they lose, how shooty the enemy is, how outmatched they are.
People look at orks, and they see an army with one strategy.
Don't use that strategy.
Don't use any. Orks don't use strategy, because strategy is for soft little humies.
No, orks have something far, far greater. They have low cunnin'. Don't strike from the left, strike from right in front of them. Don't assault the shooty squad, assault the one closest to you.
I have played as orks, space marines, tyrannids, necron, space wolves, and chaos, and I have to say, I prefer orks.

That all made me sound fanboyish, which I'm not. The point here is, orks are fun, and if played by someone who has sampled the four different basic types of army, are very effective.

20 euros says cheesegear says my meta-game is 'easy'.

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-03, 04:26 PM

What about them?
They do have more attacks, true, but they are also even more expensive. Khornate Berserkers are cheaper than them, and get more attacks in, before them, that hit more often, if they get the charge.

Purifiers kill half of a horde before combat begins.
e: In the Assault phase, I mean. Shooting will kill even more.

Don't make them any better in close combat.

Comparatively speaking, it does. Because so few enemies will make it to close combat.

Which still means less enemies to kill, and it won't make them outshoot a real shooty list.

Pretty sure they will. Storm Bolters effectively get twice - or more - the shots of a standard Bolter, so you've got, what, 160% of the shots?
Then you can make them S5 for 20 points a squad, getting you, oh, 140%?

Squark

2011-04-03, 04:30 PM

Given my current count of figures, what models would you look at purchasing at the moment?

1x Necron Lord with Warscythe and Resurrection Orb.
1x Necron Destroyer Lord with Warscythe and Resurrection Orb.
9x Necron Immortal
53X Necron Warriors
6x Necron Destroyers
10x Scarabs
1x Necron Heavy Destroyer
1x Monolith

Penguinizer

2011-04-03, 04:36 PM

Most people would probably recommend a second Monolith.

Tarinaky

2011-04-03, 04:38 PM

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-03, 04:41 PM

Tomb Spiders. Maybe two more heavy destroyers.

Cheesegear

2011-04-03, 05:16 PM

I don't really think Imperial Guard are all that unbalanced.

Well, I disagree with your assessment.

100 models on the board - Heavy weapons included - for around 700 points. In any game where objectives count, Imperial Guard win. In Annihilation, well, I've actually now have the option of only having 3-4 squads in my entire army. You can not kill all of them, and Imperial Guard will FRF!SRF! any Infantry models you care to put on the board. And heavy weapons will take care of the rest.

Infantry Guard is the best non-Mech list out there.

Oh, wait, let's play Mech.

Tank Guard; Chimeras have five fire points, two fairly decent weapons, and the squads inside have three special weapons. Inside a vehicle, the only stat that counts is BS. And Guard have BS4. Better than Marines. For less than half the points. Then because all your squads are cheap as chips anyway, back your Chimeras up with the best tanks in the game.

Scratch Chimeras, let's take Gunships. In your DZ on the first turn, wipes you clean. Currently nigh-unbeatable unless your opponent plays Razorspam or plays Tank Guard and runs Hydras.

I have never lost, no matter how desperately close I came to defeat.

Like I said before, post a list. I will take that list to my next club night and see how it goes. If your list really is unbeatable, then it will be. And you'll be the person who finally got me playing Orks again.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-04-03, 05:52 PM

Orks aren't exactly weak, they're just hard for a new guy to play.

In what sense? The sense of a new guy playing a new guy? (Ie. learning the game) because Orks are really good at that level ... before list nuance comes into it and the two dimensional codex starts shining through. Or do you mean a new guy playing established players? Because the newbie is very rarely going to win those match-ups anyway (although they are good learning matches).

Orks have a couple lists which can work in a tournament environment, all centred around spam. Primarily, that of Battlewagons, because Battlewagons are actually quite good (even moreso with KFF's around) and there are a few cute toys in the 'dex (buggies, deffkoptas, deff dreads (which can become troops, courtesy of the guy bringing your KFF), killa kans, etc ...

Something along these (http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/09/what-to-bring-to-battle-for-salvation.html) lines.

Like I said before, post a list. I will take that list to my next club night and see how it goes. If your list really is unbeatable, then it will be. And you'll be the person who finally got me playing Orks again.

Surely you wouldn't want to indulge in such a cruel pastime as unbeatable lists? I thought that you wanted to play all of your games fair :smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2011-04-03, 06:12 PM

Orks have a couple lists which can work in a tournament environment, all centred around spam. Primarily, that of Battlewagons, because Battlewagons are actually quite good (even moreso with KFF's around) and there are a few cute toys in the 'dex (buggies, deffkoptas, deff dreads (which can become troops, courtesy of the guy bringing your KFF), killa kans, etc ...

Incidentally, not Nob Bikers. Because 500 points on one unit is not what Orks do best. :smallamused:

It always amuses me that as good as Nob Bikers are, all the high-end Ork players never use them. Kind of like how all the high-end Space Wolf players stopped running Thunderwolves af....haha jk, lol. Thunderwolves are awesome.

Something along these (http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/09/what-to-bring-to-battle-for-salvation.html) lines.

*drool* Although it's interesting that it uses Buggies as opposed to Deffkoptas which ignore terrain.

Surely you wouldn't want to indulge in such a cruel pastime as unbeatable lists? I thought you wanted to play your games fair :smalltongue:

Well, most of the time. But, when I hear 'unbeatable list', Tournament Cheesegear comes out to play and wheels start spinning and Codecies start opening.

...Is it wrong that my next Chapter of Space Marines will feature ponies?

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-03, 07:07 PM

No list is unbeatable. I never run the same list more than once. And orks are hard to play if you've only played one or two armies before and you're trying them out for the first time, because people will tell you over and over that orks only have one strategy, just like people tell you over and over that IG is unbalanced, SPEHSS MAHREEN scouts suck, and that Necrons are overpowered because their units can come back from the dead.
The thing about orks is that they're so damn fun and so damn simple.

Inquisitor D

2011-04-03, 07:08 PM

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-03, 07:14 PM

You seem to think Necrons are good. I dont know where you picked that up. Do tell.

No, no, I'm saying they AREN'T overpowered. Reread the post. Necrons aren't all that good, despite they're high firepower and ability to return from the dead.

Cheesegear

2011-04-03, 07:46 PM

I never run the same list more than once.

What's the list you last used and what did you use it against?
Give me say...Two lists that you personally used, and I will use them both.

And orks are hard to play if you've only played one or two armies before and you're trying them out for the first time

That doesn't apply to me. Still waiting for a list. My 3000 points worth of Orks have been sitting in the bottom of my closet for quite some time.

The thing about orks is that they're so damn fun and so damn simple.

Your previous posts, including this one, suggest otherwise.

Inquisitor D

2011-04-03, 07:50 PM

No, no, I'm saying they AREN'T overpowered. Reread the post. Necrons aren't all that good, despite they're high firepower and ability to return from the dead.You seem to think that other people think that 'crons are overpowered. Im wondering where you met these people

Renegade Paladin

2011-04-03, 07:55 PM

You seem to think that other people think that 'crons are overpowered. Im wondering where you met these people
Probably the same place he met people who are unable to beat an Ork list like the one he's describing.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-04-03, 07:55 PM

Incidentally, not Nob Bikers. Because 500 points on one unit is not what Orks do best. :smallamused:

It always amuses me that as good as Nob Bikers are, all the high-end Ork players never use them. Kind of like how all the high-end Space Wolf players stopped running Thunderwolves af....haha jk, lol. Thunderwolves are awesome.

Poor, poor Nob Bikers. 75 points for a claw-toting biker will never make good on the investment.

You're right about the Thundercavalry, though (hmmm ... I sense a Space Wolf counts-as coming on :smallamused:).

*drool* Although it's interesting that it uses Buggies as opposed to Deffkoptas which ignore terrain.

I'm guessing it's just a matter of point economising, with rokkit buggies 10 cheaper/head.

Well, most of the time. But, when I hear 'unbeatable list', Tournament Cheesegear comes out to play and wheels start spinning and Codecies start opening.

...Is it wrong that my next Chapter of Space Marines will feature ponies?

Sounds like a reasonable idea and segue to me :smalltongue:

No, no, I'm saying they AREN'T overpowered. Reread the post. Necrons aren't all that good, despite they're high firepower and ability to return from the dead.

But who told you that they were scary in the first place? I've not heard any necron fear since 5th edition came about.

To imply Cheesegear, I'd say that your metagame is easy :smallwink:

(Don't worry, so's mine - and I never win! :smallbiggrin:)

Craftworld

2011-04-03, 08:19 PM

UNbeatable list do not exist. Lady Luck sees to it that they don't. Now, hard to beat lists do in fact exist. A friend of mine Phased Out a Necron army turn one (he went first) in an 'Ard Boyz tournament. That list is beatable, but it is hard to beat...sorry, don't know his list off the top of my head...:smallfrown:

Cheesegear

2011-04-03, 08:34 PM

UNbeatable list do not exist.

I have now played as orks in 33 games.
I have tied four times.
I have never lost, no matter how desperately close I came to defeat.

I'd say that 29-4-0 is surprisingly amazing odds for Orks. That's why I want to know what his list is, since I'm past deriding his meta-game. If he's that good, I want to see the list, I want to use the list.

Also, I had a look around to see if anyone had done it. They hadn't. But, I've found this for inspiration and I'm using it as my starting point.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/073/e/6/twilight_sparkle_marine_by_ghettomole-d3bnsdf.jpg

Thank you, internet. Now, let's get started on Brony-Librarian Sparkle, and Brony-Captain Dash.

Craftworld

2011-04-03, 08:46 PM

I'd say that 29-4-0 is surprisingly amazing odds for Orks. That's why I want to know what his list is, since I'm past deriding his meta-game. If he's that good, I want to see the list, I want to use the list.

Also, I had a look around to see if anyone had done it. They hadn't. But, I've found this for inspiration and I'm using it as my starting point.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/073/e/6/twilight_sparkle_marine_by_ghettomole-d3bnsdf.jpg

Thank you, internet. Now, let's get started on Brony-Librarian Sparkle, and Brony-Captain Dash.

I am not saying that you shouldn't look at his list...I actually want a peek at it so that I can have my brother test it against me. I was just saying what I know is truth. The picture...is it a Loyalist Marine or a Chaos Marine...you said Marine chapter, but it looks like an Emperor's Children Chaos Marine...but it did make me chortle.:smallwink:

crazedloon

2011-04-03, 09:14 PM

It always amuses me that as good as Nob Bikers are, all the high-end Ork players never use them. Kind of like how all the high-end Space Wolf players stopped running Thunderwolves af....haha jk, lol. Thunderwolves are awesome.

amusingly enough the one who won adepticon (big US tournament with international players) did not run any thunderwolves and I know for a fact that is because he thinks they are not worth their points

Cheesegear

2011-04-03, 09:20 PM

The picture...is it a Loyalist Marine or a Chaos Marine...you said Marine chapter, but it looks like an Emperor's Children Chaos Marine...but it did make me chortle.:smallwink:

It's a Loyalist Marine. Dressed in Ultramarines frilly-ness. And...If you think it's an EC-Marine...I weep. For you are not my brony.

amusingly enough the one who won adepticon (big US tournament with international players) did not run any thunderwolves and I know for a fact that is because he thinks they are not worth their points

Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. It depends on the list you're running.

Drop Wolves? No.
Mech? No.
Running Wolves? Yes.

Thunderwolves are an All or None approach, and it doesn't get good until 1500+.

crazedloon

2011-04-03, 09:26 PM

who would run "running wolves"? seems silly and handicapping yourself for no good reason.

Cheesegear

2011-04-03, 09:33 PM

who would run "running wolves"? seems silly and handicapping yourself for no good reason.

Not really. It has something to do with 'Hold one objective, contest others' Mentality. If you have no reason to move (i.e; Objective Squat), then the extra mobility provided by the Rhino is pointless. 10 Grey Hunters, in cover, Plasmaguns, objective-squat. Why have vehicles?

I mean, sure, if you're one of those people where "If it's not the best army, then I'm not going to play it" kind of people, then, sure, run Mech Wolves all you want. But, some people can handle having a 'likely victory' over a 'certain victory'.

crazedloon

2011-04-03, 09:38 PM

10 Grey Hunters, in cover, Plasmaguns, objective-squat. Why have vehicles?

because for the same points you have a 5 man squad with a plasma (if your really want to spend the points) and a las-plas razorback which ignores all the first rank fire second rank fire from guard, bolters from marines, ect ;and has a longer range higher strength weapon which can be shot at full range even during dawn of war.

Cheesegear

2011-04-03, 10:01 PM

because for the same points you have a 5 man squad with a plasma (if your really want to spend the points) and a las-plas razorback which ignores all the first rank fire second rank fire from guard, bolters from marines, ect ;and has a longer range higher strength weapon which can be shot at full range even during dawn of war.

This sentence contains more than ten letters.

some people can handle having a 'likely victory' over a 'certain victory'.

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-04, 04:01 AM

Thank you, internet. Now, let's get started on Brony-Librarian Sparkle, and Brony-Captain Dash.

Dash is clearly a Vanguard. Rarity would make a good Techmarine (20% more artificed!)... 'Jack - Sternguard, P. Pie - Chaplain, and I'm going with 'Shy as an Apothecary.

TechnoScrabble

2011-04-04, 04:38 AM

I just discovered a wonderful tactic for playing games where you have to protect a VIP unit while killing the enemy's VIP.
It works best if the game is 2000 points or above, though.

Make your VIP a big mek with kustom force field. Surround him with shoota boyz and lootas. Then, put a warboss and a 19 boy mob with a nob in a battlewagon with a deff rolla, grot riggers, red paint job, and maybe armor plates, and send it straight at the enemy VIP.
Or craploads of trucks, if you like using the ramshackle table.
Do whatever with any leftover points. I threw in an extra mob of lootas to defend my VIP and two full deffkopta mobs to clear a path for my battlewagon.

Renegade Paladin

2011-04-04, 06:01 AM

Thank you, internet. Now, let's get started on Brony-Librarian Sparkle, and Brony-Captain Dash.
...

I swear to the Emperor, I am going to land an Exterminatus on your chapter planet if it's the last thing I do. :smalltongue:

Winterwind

2011-04-04, 07:42 AM

Purifiers kill half of a horde before combat begins.
e: In the Assault phase, I mean. Shooting will kill even more.True enough. So they are the counter to hordes in an army that generally has a weakness against them. Hordes will deal with them the same way they deal with other units specifically designed to counter hordes; most likely, by shooting them. You can get three regular Marines for two of those, after all, and they aren't better at surviving in any way.

Don't get me wrong, Purifiers are a pretty damn awesome and powerful unit, arguably one of the best in the codex. But I don't see much game-breaking potential in them.

Comparatively speaking, it does. Because so few enemies will make it to close combat.Which applies even more to the Grey Knights. So few of them will make it to close combat, too...

Pretty sure they will. Storm Bolters effectively get twice - or more - the shots of a standard Bolter, so you've got, what, 160% of the shots?
Then you can make them S5 for 20 points a squad, getting you, oh, 140%?So, they will kill five of my jetbikes rather than three throughout the entire game, while being easier to kill themselves? I can live with that.
Besides, their volume of fire will be dropping faster than that of regular Marines. So, they won't retain their firepower for very long.

Also, I had a look around to see if anyone had done it. They hadn't. But, I've found this for inspiration and I'm using it as my starting point.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/073/e/6/twilight_sparkle_marine_by_ghettomole-d3bnsdf.jpg

Thank you, internet. Now, let's get started on Brony-Librarian Sparkle, and Brony-Captain Dash....I have to confess, I had been giving considerations, on and off, of making precisely that. :smallredface:

I don't think I'd have the confidence to actually show up with an army like that at a shop, though. Curse low confidence and self-esteem issues. :smallfrown:

My alternative idea is that of making a Tiny Toon Adventures themed army. But, firstly I doubt I could make it look all that good - they're too incongruous - and secondly, I fear it may be too obscure nowadays, twenty years after the show's run...

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-04, 07:51 AM

Renegade Paladin

2011-04-04, 08:01 AM

Is this 500 point list fair?

Primaris Psyker
75 points

Veteran Squad
lascannon, melta gun, 2 sniper rifles
110 points

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad
vox caster, medi pack

Infantry Squad
grenade launcher, lascannon, vox caster, commissar
115 points

Infantry Squad
grenade launcher, lascannon
75 points

Heavy Weapons squad
mortars
60 points

I could swap the psyker and the commissar for a lord commissar and freed up some points.

Or I could take 500 points of dark eldar instead.
A meltagun does not belong in the same unit as sniper rifles and a lascannon.

The vox-casters are wasted points if you're only going to have them on one squad. Losing the aforementioned meltagun gets you two more, for the second infantry squad and the veterans.

Of course, if you're spreading out your troops, you might not need it on the veterans (since platoon command squads only have a 6" command radius), so you could spend the other five points on a third special weapon for the veterans that fits better with the other weaponry's range. Another sniper rifle if you're going to have any at all; they're best in large numbers for multiple pinning checks. If you're going to keep the lascannon, though, I'd give them grenade launchers; less range, but at least they won't be worthless against everything worth shooting the lascannon at, unlike the rifles. If you want to keep the rifles, I'd give the veterans a mortar team, actually, for more pinning. (This also nets you another fifteen points, though I'm not sure what to spend it on.)

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-04, 08:26 AM

Which applies even more to the Grey Knights. So few of them will make it to close combat, too...

They don't really care about that, though. Their shooting is good enough to make combat a non-issue.

So, they will kill five of my jetbikes rather than three throughout the entire game, while being easier to kill themselves? I can live with that.
Besides, their volume of fire will be dropping faster than that of regular Marines. So, they won't retain their firepower for very long.

Man, if you've only been losing three jetbikes a game to Marines, yeah odds are you're going to do pretty okay.
People with normal dice, on the other hand...

...I have to confess, I had been giving considerations, on and off, of making precisely that. :smallredface:

I don't think I'd have the confidence to actually show up with an army like that at a shop, though. Curse low confidence and self-esteem issues. :smallfrown:

I thought about making a squad with the same idea, Deathwatch-style.
But then I realised that the Marines run completely counter to what the show represents; you'd probably get executed for heresy, talking about the magic of friendship. And that's just not on.

Winterwind

2011-04-04, 08:49 AM

They don't really care about that, though. Their shooting is good enough to make combat a non-issue.You really think Space Marines having stormbolters instead of regular bolters, at the cost of being more expensive (and thus vulnerable to shooting, as well as bringing less of these bolters) and lacking a fair part of their longer ranged heavy options is going to make combat a non-issue?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, because while that's a fair opinion that I can't really argue against, I on the other hand think it's an absurd exaggeration. Their shooting may be very, very slightly better, by a tiny, tiny bit. Just enough to offset that they are worse in close combat against a horde than regular Marines are.

It's quite simple in my eyes, really - against elite, Grey Knights are better in close combat than Space Marines, but worse at shooting. Against horde, it's the other way around. Which overall amounts to "it's balanced". Which is precisely what I think this codex is. Not any more powerful than Codex: Space Marines or any other 5th edition codex, and very few older ones (though, like all 5th edition codizes, it offers more options and less traps than old codizes. Which is a very, very, very good thing).

Man, if you've only been losing three jetbikes a game to Marines, yeah odds are you're going to do pretty okay.
People with normal dice, on the other hand...:smallbiggrin:
To Marine shooting, to be exact. I've lost some Pathfinders or Firedragons when they ended up charged by Assault Marines or something like that, but Marine shooting generally just fails to get past re-rollable 3+ saves.

I thought about making a squad with the same idea, Deathwatch-style.
But then I realised that the Marines run completely counter to what the show represents; you'd probably get executed for heresy, talking about the magic of friendship. And that's just not on.I have considered painting some WHFB horsemen, or more accurately, their mounts - probably Wood Elf Glade/Wild riders, maybe something different though - in the pony schemes, too, but that doesn't seem satisfactory, either.

I'm still at a loss which army in which game would work best for the concept.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-04, 08:52 AM

A meltagun does not belong in the same unit as sniper rifles and a lascannon.

The vox-casters are wasted points if you're only going to have them on one squad. Losing the aforementioned meltagun gets you two more, for the second infantry squad and the veterans.

Of course, if you're spreading out your troops, you might not need it on the veterans (since platoon command squads only have a 6" command radius), so you could spend the other five points on a third special weapon for the veterans that fits better with the other weaponry's range. Another sniper rifle if you're going to have any at all; they're best in large numbers for multiple pinning checks. If you're going to keep the lascannon, though, I'd give them grenade launchers; less range, but at least they won't be worthless against everything worth shooting the lascannon at, unlike the rifles. If you want to keep the rifles, I'd give the veterans a mortar team, actually, for more pinning. (This also nets you another fifteen points, though I'm not sure what to spend it on.)

Those are just the models I have. The sniper rifles were on the command squad but then I remembered the BS4.

Only special weapons that aren't in that list are flamers.

I'm still at a loss which army in which game would work best for the concept.

Tyranids.

Penguinizer

2011-04-04, 08:56 AM

You could use the dwarf miner pony.

Winterwind

2011-04-04, 09:07 AM

Tyranids.Don't really radiate "cute and adorable" though. :smallfrown:
Squigs kinda do, but the wrong kind of adorable.

Oooh, there are Baby Dragon miniatures (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440120a&prodId=prod330008a)! Now that would be a must-have in such an army, no matter what it was! :smallbiggrin:

You could use the dwarf miner pony.Hmmm... can't quite find it. Would be an idea for just modeling the ponies; not so much for an entire pony-themed army though, I think.

Ninja Chocobo

2011-04-04, 09:35 AM

You really think Space Marines having stormbolters instead of regular bolters, at the cost of being more expensive (and thus vulnerable to shooting, as well as bringing less of these bolters) and lacking a fair part of their longer ranged heavy options is going to make combat a non-issue?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, because while that's a fair opinion that I can't really argue against, I on the other hand think it's an absurd exaggeration. Their shooting may be very, very slightly better, by a tiny, tiny bit. Just enough to offset that they are worse in close combat against a horde than regular Marines are.

You have probably more than 1.5x the number of Bolter shots as a standard Marine army (potentially S5, though it is unknown whether that is cost-effective), as well as Psycannons, which are now among the best Heavy- and Assault- weapons that exist.
Also, S8 TLAC Dreads, ranged flamer templates, Henchmen squads with cheap firepower...
GK shooting is significantly better, and that's not even scratching the surface of Henchmen cheese.
going to bed now bye

Winterwind

2011-04-04, 09:52 AM

You have probably more than 1.5x the number of Bolter shots as a standard Marine army (potentially S5, though it is unknown whether that is cost-effective), as well as Psycannons, which are now among the best Heavy- and Assault- weapons that exist.Bolters that fail against good armour saves just as they always have, and allow you to kill all the more of them with less firepower. Grey Knights are hurt far more if you send a few AP3 shots their way. Psycannons are nice, but there's just a few of them, and they still struggle with 3+ armour.

Also, S8 TLAC Dreads, ranged flamer templates, Henchmen squads with cheap firepower...
GK shooting is significantly better, and that's not even scratching the surface of Henchmen cheese.
going to bed now byeAll of which are either expensive, vulnerable in some fashion or another (Henchmen either can't take fire at all, or you have to get them additional henchmen designed to take fire who can't do much else, which makes them fairly expensive for what they can do), or a combination thereof.

I can only repeat - I see no reason whatsoever for such a panic. It's just a codex like any other. It doesn't even have Obliterators or anything like that.

Tarinaky

2011-04-04, 10:03 AM

Incidentally, how viable is an all terminator, or at least heavily terminator, army in the new GK codex? That was, to me, the only real appeal of the army fluff.

hamishspence

2011-04-04, 10:06 AM

Points cost (and limited anti-tank abilities) might make them fall a little behind more competitive lists.

But that might still be good enough to do well.

Termies don't get dedicated transports though- so may need to Deep Strike, or come in Stormravens/Land Raiders.

crazedloon

2011-04-04, 10:48 AM

All of which are either expensive, vulnerable in some fashion or another (Henchmen either can't take fire at all, or you have to get them additional henchmen designed to take fire who can't do much else, which makes them fairly expensive for what they can do), or a combination thereof.

this is not true as far as the dreds are concerned (at least to a experienced player) because they can easily hie behind rhino/razorback walls gaining a cover save without giving their targets a save. Add a nearby librarian (in a henchmen's chimera for maximum protection) giving them a 3+ cover save and they become hard to hurt. Add to that the fact that they ignore 2/3 of glancing hits and 1/3 penetrating hits on a ld10 psykic power and they become very very hard to hurt.

-Pretty much if you are not full of barrage high strength weapons they will have a cover save (so only guard can get past this)
-unless you have a means to shut down psykers they will ignore a good portion of your actual hits (so really only other marine armies and eldar can deal with it)

there are some suicide tactics which could potentially be used to deal with the problem but due to long range the dreds can sit onthe board edge hiding from such tactics and still be effective.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-04, 10:59 AM

this is not true as far as the dreds are concerned (at least to a experienced player) because they can easily hie behind rhino/razorback walls gaining a cover save without giving their targets a save.

True line of sight.

If you have cover that stops me from seeing your guns, you can't shoot me.

A single gun dread can poke just the barrel out. A two gun dread will have problems.

Winterwind

2011-04-04, 11:39 AM

In addition to that, Grey Knight dreads aren't that cheap at all (especially Venerable ones), and they don't have access to FA13 dreads. Also, they take up slots the Grey Knights require rather direly for most of their other toys to work - for example, to get the Land Raiders they have no access to otherwise to transport their precious heavy infantry around, or to get Purgation squads that actually have some of those wonderful psycannons.

crazedloon

2011-04-04, 12:29 PM

I wish I had a picture of a dred behind a rhino (I tried to find one, so if someone has better googlefoo it may help this discusion) but they can see just fine over the rhinos' back.

The heavy support slot are full of traps which all try to do what the dreds can do but are worse at it. The biggest problem which grey knights have is short range. Those psycannons are great but if an opponent can stay at 31" they are ueless. However the long range autocannons gives you fire power down range all game.

Heavy infantry are mostly traps in the book. They are good and fun (don't get me wrong) but what the terminators/paladins can do, can be done cheaper and more efficiently by other units in the book. If you really need a "heavy troop transport" you can pick up a storm raven in the fast attack slot (a slot which is far less competitive with far less effective options.) but you are better off leaving the big guys at home.

so you have
-transports which are not needed
-you have gimmicky fire magnets
-you have a unit which tries to be long range fire support at the same range the rest of your army shoots (if you want psycannons as you should, you take them on your purifiers and strike squads)
-riflemen dreds (135 points if I recall correctly)

I would never suggest/take a venerable riflemen because than you are wasting points on some small boosts which rarely help.

Hawkfrost000

2011-04-04, 01:06 PM

Well, I disagree with your assessment.
Tank Guard; Chimeras have five fire points, two fairly decent weapons, and the squads inside have three special weapons. Inside a vehicle, the only stat that counts is BS. And Guard have BS4. SAME AS Marines. For less than half the points. Then because all your squads are cheap as chips anyway, back your Chimeras up with the best tanks in the game.

fixed it for you...

but if i am correct that is not your average guard squad, isnt it a veteran squad? im probably wrong as i do not play guard but i am pretty sure that baseline guard (baseline humans) are BS 3

DM

Arcanoi

2011-04-04, 01:13 PM

~snip~

I believe we covered this before, but having too many good options is not a handicap or weakness.

Tarinaky

2011-04-04, 01:20 PM

Why would you ever conceivably buy transports for Terminators when they deep strike at no extra cost?

Squark

2011-04-04, 01:22 PM

Does anyone have a link to a site I could use to do some research on tweaking my necron army at this point?

hamishspence

2011-04-04, 01:23 PM

Why would you ever conceivably buy transports for Terminators when they deep strike at no extra cost?

Because they can't assault after they Deep Strike- meaning one full turn where they're exposed to the firepower of the enemy army.

In a transport like a Land Raider or a Stormraven- they can assault straight out of it- so not getting shot at.

crazedloon

2011-04-04, 01:43 PM

I believe we covered this before, but having too many good options is not a handicap or weakness.

but they are not good options are the problem.

How often do land raiders actually make their points back in any sense of the phrase. There is a reason you rarely see them in other armies why would that change in GK.

MC have many weaknesses and the dred knight lacks the punch to deal with anything but small squads. If you deck him out to take advantage of his one cool ability (30" move) he cost an arm and a leg and runs into the land raider problem.

The purgation squads lack the range to do the job they try to fill and their weapons are better placed on other units who can spread the firepower around.

Trixie

2011-04-04, 01:52 PM

Sigh. So much Ward hate. And so predictable, too. Remember the SW scare?

15 points troops with 3 attacks. Cheap Long Fangs. Most good SM toys. JAWS! of doom. Terminator troops. 2 meltaguns per unit.

And yet, the world hasn't ended, and SW ended up pretty balanced.

Oh, and so far, all three codices produced by Ward ended up exactly in the middle of 5th edition power, well, all 5th edition books are pretty balanced with each other, except for Tyranids. Calling them 'broken' because they are better fit to 5th edition that 3rd/4th edition books is... I don't even know how to call it.

Ward, to me, is guilty of two things - writting good, well-balanced (sometimes even too balanced, just look what he did to Mordrak) rules, and writting nice, more than adequate fluff that thrown all that grimdumb of the 2 previous editions out of the door, kept sane stuff in, and gave SM and GK real internal organization and logical division/structure. Oh, and he brought a lot of good ideas, races, and wargear from the RT/2nd edition back, which is nice, too.

I can't divine how can anyone call 3rd/4th Edition books of SM/GK better, given how crappy rules these had, and how boring, brief and dull fluff in these was. Seriously, Ward writes more fluff than these books had pages! And the criticism it gets is often baseless on second look, say, how this whole 'exhausted and disrupted BA force chooses not to pursue Necrons' is posed as some sort of Necron/BA alliance. True, Necrons should have pursued them, but they might have had their own reasons not to, and with new Necron Lords supposedly refluffed and with Ward helping to write new Necron Codex I'd guess he knows better than haters what he is doing.

Well, to sum things - I sincerely wish all who hate Ward to have their books written by someone 'competent' instead, say, people who wrote Necron Codex (with their one troop unit with one upgrade), who wrote books for 4th Ed Chaos Marines or created fluff/"rules" for Witch/Daemonhunters. After all, you want non-Ward book, so I sincerely wish you got what you want :smalltongue:

Oh, and it understanding of current metagame is really as poor down under (no offence) as these posts about Guard/GK-scare forcing people to switch games/Ward rules led me to believe, then playing with comp scores isn't 5 times worse, it's 25 times worse than normal. I wait for announcement that taking GK codex will automatically give you -50 ladder points with bated breath :smalltongue:

hamishspence

2011-04-04, 02:15 PM

Ward, to me, is guilty of two things - writting good, well-balanced (sometimes even too balanced, just look what he did to Mordrak) rules, and writting nice, more than adequate fluff that thrown all that grimdumb of the 2 previous editions out of the door, kept sane stuff in, and gave SM and GK real internal organization and logical division/structure. Oh, and he brought a lot of good ideas, races, and wargear from the RT/2nd edition back, which is nice, too.

I can't divine how can anyone call 3rd/4th Edition books of SM/GK better, given how crappy rules these had, and how boring, brief and dull fluff in these was. Seriously, Ward writes more fluff than these books had pages! And the criticism it gets is often baseless on second look, say, how this whole 'exhausted and disrupted BA force chooses not to pursue Necrons' is posed as some sort of Necron/BA alliance. True, Necrons should have pursued them, but they might have had their own reasons not to, and with new Necron Lords supposedly refluffed and with Ward helping to write new Necron Codex I'd guess he knows better than haters what he is doing.

Up to a point I tend to agree- I think some of the dislike of Ward might be a little misplaced.

He's sometimes referred to as "the Karen Traviss of 40K" on B&C.

Lycan 01

2011-04-04, 02:24 PM

So I'm probably gonna pick up that old Witch Hunter Inquisitor + Retinue kit at my local hobby shop. At 22 bucks, its too good a deal to pass up...

But. As much as I love the Witch Hunter Inquisitor (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1140003&prodId=prod1160013a) model , there's one part about it I don't really like that much - the Inferno Pistol. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it just doesn't seem like that great of a weapon choice. Plus, I think he'd look cooler with a bolter or something. But I'd rather not slap a bolter on him and then find out I gave him a bad weapon choice. Sooo... What would be a good replacement for the Inferno Pistol? I'm not asking for ~the best~ choice, but rather just some good suggestions so that he'll look cool and be WYSIWYG when used in the field.

I haven't yet gotten the Grey Knights Codex (dang its expensive!), but I can already guess that a "basic" Inquisitor without power/Terminator Armor (can they still take Termie armor? Surely they can... :smallconfused:) is probably "sub-par" compared to ones with said upgrades. I realize this. But as I said, I love this model kit, and I'd like to use it in my army. (Not as an HQ choice, of course. :smalltongue:)

Tarinaky

2011-04-04, 02:24 PM

It does feel like chapters like the Crimson Fists have been forgotten. Especially in favour of chapters like the Ultramarines - it's impossible to imagine anyone coming up with the name for them and their planet doing so with a straight face... >.>

Of course, this complaint is older than 5th edition.

Lycan_01: I consider the humble boltpistol to be a good, effective, choice of weapon for a character.

hamishspence

2011-04-04, 02:27 PM

I haven't yet gotten the Grey Knights Codex (dang its expensive!), but I can already guess that a "basic" Inquisitor without power/Terminator Armor (can they still take Termie armor? Surely they can... :smallconfused:) is probably "sub-par" compared to ones with said upgrades. I realize this. But as I said, I love this model kit, and I'd like to use it in my army. (Not as an HQ choice, of course. :smalltongue:)

Ordo Malleus can take Termie Armour, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos (which are in the army list) can't- but all are HQ.

If you don't want to use the model as an HQ, he might do as an Inquisitorial Henchman of some kind.

It does feel like chapters like the Crimson Fists have been forgotten. Especially in favour of chapters like the Ultramarines - it's impossible to imagine anyone coming up with the name for them and their planet doing so with a straight face... >.>

They got a chapter master in the 5E SM codex- and a paragraph or two of fluff.
It gave quite a few chapters a paragraph or so.

Unlike the 4E one.

Lycan 01

2011-04-04, 02:31 PM

Ordo Malleus can take Termie Armour, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos (which are in the army list) can't- but all are HQ.

If you don't want to use the model as an HQ, he might do as an Inquisitorial Henchman of some kind.

Yes, but I've heard that with Coteaz as an HQ I can take Inquisitors + Retinues as Troops choices. Which I would probably do. :smallwink:

Zorg

2011-04-04, 02:33 PM

Sigh. So much Ward hate. And so predictable, too. Remember the SW scare?

And yet, the world hasn't ended, and SW ended up pretty balanced.

Matt Ward didn't write Wolves :smallwink:

writting nice, more than adequate fluff that thrown all that grimdumb of the 2 previous editions out of the door, kept sane stuff in,

Grey Knights murdering Sororitas and bathing in their blood... because GK's don't have enough Daemonic protection already :smallsigh:

and gave SM and GK real internal organization and logical division/structure.

Space Marines have had the same organisation since Rogue Trader. All Ward did was needlessly (and illogically) change the way scouts are assigned to squads.

Oh, and he brought a lot of good ideas, races, and wargear from the RT/2nd edition back, which is nice, too.

I doubt that's all his doing, or even majority. Guys like Jervis and Jes probably have more say in that regard.

And the criticism it gets is often baseless on second look, say, how this whole 'exhausted and disrupted BA force chooses not to pursue Necrons' is posed as some sort of Necron/BA alliance.

Actually the issue is with them choosing not to pursue those who "they had so recently fought alongside" - if it were Eldar or Tau, maybe, but Necrons? Blood Angels giving honour to the Necrons?
It'd be fine if the BA's wanted to bash heads but couldn't - it's that they chose not to because of honour that hacked people off.

Well, to sum things - I sincerely wish all who hate Ward to have their books written by someone 'competent' instead, say, people who wrote Necron Codex (with their one troop unit with one upgrade), who wrote books for 4th Ed Chaos Marines or created fluff/"rules" for Witch/Daemonhunters. After all, you want non-Ward book, so I sincerely wish you got what you want :smalltongue:

Yes, comparing to books where the design philosophy of the studio was totally different (ie minimalist) and under different rulesets is a totally valid comparrison :smallsigh:
The codexes you listed were all quite good in their day, and Witchhunters (though limited) can still perform quite well in the right hands. I'd quite happily see Phil Kelly write more books.

Trixie

2011-04-04, 02:36 PM

Up to a point I tend to agree- I think some of the dislike of Ward might be a little misplaced.

He's sometimes referred to as "the Karen Traviss of 40K" on B&C.

The difference is, Ward might write too hammy things, but he does what he was told. Travissty decided to ruin canon and insult fans on the forums entirely on her own. That, and she can't even count to million, much less write complex game rules worth anything.

Sure, it would be nice if fluff in Codex: GK was written by Forgeworld writers (their fluff in IA X is among the best I've read, if still failing in military logic), but seeing how much these cost, I'd take Ward, pretty please.

Just compare their 'love' to Ultramarines/Mandalorians - Ward "loves" them so much every single Ultra IC (except Tellion) is the worst HQ/upgrade choice in the book, while Travissty makes Jedi Masters lick Mandalorian boots as they're so awesome.

hamishspence

2011-04-04, 02:36 PM

Yes, but I've heard that with Coteaz as an HQ I can take Inquisitors + Retinues as Troops choices. Which I would probably do. :smallwink:

Henchmen- but not Inquisitors. Henchmen are an Elites (no slots taken up) that require an inquisitor to take a squad of them. Inquisitors are always HQ.

With Coteaz- they are Troops, and don't require an Inquisitor. But a second inquisitor after Coteaz still takes up an HQ choice.

So- you can never have more than 2 Inquisitors in your army. But you can have a whole lot of henchmen.

And Death Cult Assassins, Daemonhosts, and Arco-flagellants, are now Henchmen options.

That, and she can't even count to million, much less write complex game rules worth anything.

The 1.2 million clones figure predates Traviss- it was in both Shatterpoint and The Cestus Deception.

lord_khaine

2011-04-04, 02:37 PM

Wraith

2011-04-04, 02:37 PM

Ward, to me, is guilty of two things..... writting nice, more than adequate fluff that thrown all that grimdumb of the 2 previous editions out of the door, kept sane stuff in, and gave SM and GK real internal organization and logical division/structure..

All of a sudden, despite agreeing with what you were saying prior and after, this? :smallconfused:

Codex Grey Knights is probably one of the most grimdark books out. It describes how billions of soldiers and civilians - who even so much as saw the Grey Knights in action at Armageddon - were hunted down and exterminated along with anyone in the near vicinity.
And how they murdered several dozen Sisters of Battle so as to use their innocent blood (and that's as specified in the text!) as a ward against some Daemons that were about to kill them.

And the rest! :smalltongue:

Lycan 01

2011-04-04, 02:40 PM

Henchmen- but not Inquisitors. Henchmen are an Elites (no slots taken up) that require an inquisitor to take a squad of them. Inquisitors are always HQ.

With Coteaz- they are Troops, and don't require an Inquisitor. But a second inquisitor after Coteaz still takes up an HQ choice.

So- you can never have more than 2 Inquisitors in your army. But you can have a whole lot of henchmen.

And Death Cult Assassins, Daemonhosts, and Arco-flagellants, are now Henchmen options.

But... but... You could take Inquisitors as Elites in the last Codex...

Awwww. :smallfrown:

hamishspence

2011-04-04, 02:41 PM

On the plus side, there's 3 Inquisitor special characters- Karamazov, Coteaz, and a new Ordo Xenos character.

And standard assassins are no longer 0-1, and don't require an inquisitor.

So a Grey Knight army could take 3 assassins.

Lycan 01

2011-04-04, 02:44 PM

Ordo Xenos, you say? Well, that is encouraging, at least. :smallbiggrin:

Still. I was looking forward to buying/converting/building Inquisitors and Henchmen. I mean, Henchmen will still work, but I really like Inquisitors...

hamishspence

2011-04-04, 02:47 PM

Still. I was looking forward to buying/converting/building Inquisitors and Henchmen. I mean, Henchmen will still work, but I really like Inquisitors...

Maybe take several loadouts- and swap whichever is your favorite in.

Not sure which Henchman type works best for existing Inquisitor models - maybe Warrior.

Trixie

2011-04-04, 02:50 PM

Matt Ward didn't write Wolves :smallwink:

I know. That was the whole point.

Grey Knights murdering Sororitas and bathing in their blood... because GK's don't have enough Daemonic protection already :smallsigh:

Murdering? It was phrased very differently in the codex. Eh, it was talked to the death, but how GK needing pure blood for sigils to better combat the especially dangerous daemon is different from feeding people to astronomican? From using slaves to fast-grow SM geneseed? Imperium does that all the time.

Space Marines have had the same organisation since Rogue Trader. All Ward did was needlessly (and illogically) change the way scouts are assigned to squads.

What? :smallconfused: Scouts placed in safest places initially is bad? :smallconfused:

He created good internal division, instead of squad types appearing/disappearing out of nowhere as the marines progressed.

I doubt that's all his doing, or even majority. Guys like Jervis and Jes probably have more say in that regard.

So, what is poorly done, it's Wards fault, what is good, it's caused by others? :smalltongue:

Actually the issue is with them choosing not to pursue those who "they had so recently fought alongside" - if it were Eldar or Tau, maybe, but Necrons? Blood Angels giving honour to the Necrons?
It'd be fine if the BA's wanted to bash heads but couldn't - it's that they chose not to because of honour that hacked people off.

I won't argue, but marines did stranger stuff than this.

SW is widely consideret to be one of the most OP codexes, they are only really balanced with BA and IG.

No, they're not OP. They're perfectly balanced on new, modern level. It's the older books, with their monobuilds, that have fallen behind. New books are 'overpowered' only because they have multiple viable builds, their options cost less and they have more options, but still, they're perfectly good, not OP.

All of a sudden, despite agreeing with what you were saying prior and after, this? :smallconfused:

Codex Grey Knights is probably one of the most grimdark books out. It describes how billions of soldiers and civilians - who even so much as saw the Grey Knights in action at Armageddon - were hunted down and exterminated along with anyone in the near vicinity.
And how they murdered several dozen Sisters of Battle so as to use their innocent blood (and that's as specified in the text!) as a ward against some Daemons that were about to kill them.

I said 'grimdumb', didn't I? :smalltongue:

I don't mind dark stories. I don't mind grim stories. I'm fine with bad endings. But, grimdark with the sake of grimdark, which was prevalent in the old editions, and manifested in things that strained suspension of disbelief beyond breaking point, was, well...

It was like having war story where protagonist trips in the middle of combat, ends up paralysed, is sent home, where random shipment of tse-tse flies escaped from nearby laboratory attacks him and causes him to die in pain. In short, they were so illogically grim it was almost comical and severed any attachment you felt to the story.

So, sure, if GK need to, let them purge the planets. But, new editions have them need to. Old ones simply had them do this out of spite.

Zorg

2011-04-04, 03:18 PM

I know. That was the whole point.

Your point was that someone else wrote a good codex? I'm not sure how that proves that Ward's background writing isn't sometimes terrible.

Murdering? It was phrased very differently in the codex. Eh, it was talked to the death, but how GK needing pure blood for sigils to better combat the especially dangerous daemon is different from feeding people to astronomican? From using slaves to fast-grow SM geneseed? Imperium does that all the time.

Aside from the illogicallity of Grey Knights needing more Daemonic protection (Alaric survived enslavement on a Daemon world ok, and he was semi-naked and had a Collar of Khorne stuck on him), it's inherantly bad writing to show your protagonists needing to do things like that to enhance what is supposed to be their strong area (like Sororitas asking for help to do some religious stuff).
Grey Knights should be doing things like calling on the already martyred Sister's spirits to aid them, or getting blessings from the Sisters to aid them and increase their mental fortitude... not killing people who could help them. It's also a huge shift in character for GKs to be doing blood magic and the like, especially when it involves killing people who have survived corruption so strong that it threatens the Grey Knights.

The comparrison would be feeding a strong psyker who could become a Librarian to the Astronomican, or making a test bed slave out of the guy who knows how to revive the Emperor: stupid misaplication of resources.
It is also bad as killing Sisters in horrible ways is rapidly becoming 40k's version of both the Worf Effect and Women in Refridgerators.

Ward writes good unit entries, but he needs someone else to do the background.

What? :smallconfused: Scouts placed in safest places initially is bad? :smallconfused:

He created good internal division, instead of squad types appearing/disappearing out of nowhere as the marines progressed.

I mean after they get power armour. He didn't create anything, the company layout and squad types (battle comp - 2 dev, 2 assault, 6 tac) comes from 2nd ed Space Marine/Epic.
I've really no idea what organisation you're saying he created.

All he did change was that scouts go into Dev squads, then Assault, then Tac - rather than the older, more sensible version of scouts really good at shooting go to devs, scouts really good at stabbing go to assault, scouts good as all rounders go to tacs (or the alternative "if you're good enough to be a full marine you can do everything awesomely, so you go where there's a space").

So, what is poorly done, it's Wards fault, what is good, it's caused by others? :smalltongue:

Some of it is likely Ward's, but you seemd to imply it was all his doing, which is unlikely.

Inquisitor D

2011-04-04, 03:33 PM

Pretty sure that means that Sisters are more Daemon resistant that GKs...

lord_khaine

2011-04-04, 04:00 PM

No, they're not OP. They're perfectly balanced on new, modern level. It's the older books, with their monobuilds, that have fallen behind. New books are 'overpowered' only because they have multiple viable builds, their options cost less and they have more options, but still, they're perfectly good, not OP.

No, they are also a lot better that most other 5th edition codex, like SM, Tyranids, DE and apperently GK.

Winterwind

2011-04-04, 05:15 PM

fixed it for you...

but if i am correct that is not your average guard squad, isnt it a veteran squad? im probably wrong as i do not play guard but i am pretty sure that baseline guard (baseline humans) are BS 3While I have no wish to put words into Cheesegear's mouth, I'm pretty sure both his "Guard have BS 4, so more than Marines" statement is based on two assumptions:
- Marines use primarily Scouts, because Scouts are better than Tactical Marines (anyone who has read this thread for any notable amount of time - or just read the opening post of this thread - would know that Cheesegear is a fervent proponent of Scouts over Tacticals), and
- Guard use Veterans in this particular example, because Veterans work better with Mech.

Which means that we are indeed dealing with BS3 Marines and BS4 Guard.

How often do land raiders actually make their points back in any sense of the phrase. There is a reason you rarely see them in other armies why would that change in GK.It may very well be just my metagame - which, I'll be the first one to admit, is not particularly strong by any meaning of the word - but when facing any kind of Space Marine variant around here, it's pretty much not "Do they have a Land Raider?" but "How many Land Raiders do they have?".

EDIT: Ooof, and that's what I get for not hitting the refresh button for hours. >_<

I have to say, I mostly agree with Trixie - it may be that I just got into the game too late, and missed out on how incredibly more awesome the fluff used to be before Ward murdered it, but from my point of view, more or less everything he wrote recently seems pretty fine...

Yes, the Daemons of Chaos army book in Fantasy was a catastrophe of epic proportions, but considering his track record since then, I think he has learnt his lesson.

Closet_Skeleton

2011-04-04, 05:34 PM

Played a 3 vs 3 game. Two battle sisters armies and a dark angels army on my side, two chaos armies and a dark eldar army on their side.

So something like

Azrael
A Palatine
A canoness
5 sister squads
a heavy bolter retributor squad
A seraphim squad
An assault marine squad
a dreadnought
two units of space marines
2 exorcists

vs

Two chaos lords
Baron Sathonyx
three units of hellions
2 units of thousand sons
a unit of khorne berserkers
a unit of regular chaos undivided
2 ravagers with tripple dark lances
10 obliterators

My entire army got butchered, but managed to kill 5 obliterators (4 on the first turn from my exorcists), a chaos lord (rolled 3 2s on saves from shooting) and most of the khorne and undivided marines in the process (which gave me no kill points).

My palatine managed to roll 10s on leadership tests twice and made me waste a faith point rallying while within 6 of an enemy. She killed one hellion with her blessed weapon and that was it. If only there was a faith power that let you actually hit stuff.

Unlike the 4E one.

You had index astartes. It didn't need to.

The 4th ed book let you make any chapter you wanted without any of these stupid special characters.QUOTE=hamishspence;10702377]

The 1.2 million clones figure predates Traviss- it was in both Shatterpoint and The Cestus Deception.

Travis actually changed it to 3 million. Which was a good effort on her part but still not enough. She then defended that change less than politely.

but off topic.

Squark

2011-04-04, 06:12 PM

Digression: Frankly, we just have to accept the clone army not making sense. If we use the canon number, the ratio of Clones: Planets is lower than that of SMs:Planets in the Imperium, and clones, to put it bluntly, aren't space marines. But if we give them a reasonable number... We run into the logistics issues of where the Kaminoans kept them all; The planet is not exactly a place that could house a few billion soldiers-in-training.

On Topic: Where can I find tournament reports for Necrons? Because I'm trying to figure out what direction I should take my army, and want to look at what other people are doing.

Klose_the_Sith

2011-04-04, 06:31 PM

I mean after they get power armour. He didn't create anything, the company layout and squad types (battle comp - 2 dev, 2 assault, 6 tac) comes from 2nd ed Space Marine/Epic.
I've really no idea what organisation you're saying he created.

All he did change was that scouts go into Dev squads, then Assault, then Tac - rather than the older, more sensible version of scouts really good at shooting go to devs, scouts really good at stabbing go to assault, scouts good as all rounders go to tacs (or the alternative "if you're good enough to be a full marine you can do everything awesomely, so you go where there's a space").

I've said it before and I'll say it again,

The current training layout makes far more sense. Marines *DON'T* specialise. That's a key part of them being Marines ... and people need to stop being so precious with the fluff of Christmas past.

Cheesegear

2011-04-04, 06:40 PM

fixed it for you...

No, no you didn't.

Veterans in a Chimera are better than Marines. It's the trip-special weapons.