Balancing Gestalt with Non-Gestalt

[Kittenwolf]

Just an idea that I've been tossing around. How would you go about balancing campaign rules so that Gestalt and non-Gestalt characters can operate in the same party?

I was thinking something along the lines of:

Gestalts must be two base classes only. No changing class at any point (eg, you start as Bard/Monk, you're a Bard/Monk for life), no PrC etc. Gestalts may also not have Cleric, Druid or anything from ToB (and possibly wizard) on either side.

Non-Gestalts operate under standard rules, but no Multiclassing XP penalties.

Probably not quite enough, but it'd mean that Gestalts would generally be picking two lower-tier classes, resulting in more versatility but less raw power.

Obviously strict "Anti-cheese" rulings would also need to be in place.

[Noneoyabizzness]

actually +2 la seems fine for the most part.

of course you looking to keep them at same la depends what you are pairing.

[Kumori]

I've been thinking about this also, and my best idea so far would be to impose an XP penalty on the gestalt characters similar to the default one for multiclassing. Maybe 15 or 20%. I believe this would work better than a direct LA at lower levels and have a similar affect to LA at the higher levels. Not quite sure where the right balance point would be.

[Grendus]

The original tier thread had suggestions for this, but basically it went as follows:

Tier 1's and 2's don't get to gestalt. They're all full spellcasters, and tbh are more than powerful enough.

Tier 3's can gestalt with a Tier 6 class. This can net some fairly powerful mixes, like the Dread Necromancer getting Warrior or even Samurai HP, or expanding their skill lists and getting more skill points per level from the Aristocrat. You could expand this to gestalting with an NPC class (though be forewarned, the Adept is deceptively powerful) without too much danger.

Tier 4's and 5's can freely gestalt with each other, or with T6 if they're masochists they want to. Rogue/Fighter with sneak attack, full BAB and a mess of bonus feats? How about a Rogue/Warlock that can sneak attack from a distance with a pile of bonus dice and added effects, plus flight and invisibility at will? Or a Barbarian/Monk with pounce, rage, full BAB with d12 hit dice, and flurry of blows plus incredible move speed? Gestalt gives weaker classes some powerful options.

The advantage of this system is that players are free to multiclass around if they want. If the fighter//rogue wants to start taking levels of Wizard to go after a gish build, they simply don't get to gestalt for their wizard levels. The only hard part about this is PrC's, though there are some rough guidelines. Assume the tier stays the same as the base class except for flagrant offenders, such as Sublime Chord. If a PrC is a real stinker, like the arcane archer, you could treat it like one tier lower, unless they're doing something very clever.

[Kittenwolf]

Grendus - I really like that setup!

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293 has the listings for classes (with the exception of Incarnum classes) and http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0 lists the up and down tiers for PrCs.

That could work really well. And means my Incarnate/Soulknife idea would be quite allowable :D

[JaronK]

Archivist//Factotum is one reason the "single base classes only" idea doesn't work. Frankly, most base classes are pretty boring past the first few levels, and those that aren't are often ridiculously strong, so you end up with a demand of "either be broken powerful or boring!" which doesn't work. ToB classes are actually one of few exceptions to this, as they're fun to level up through and yet not horribly boring after a while by themselves.

Tier based gestalt works pretty well... the original suggestion was T1 and 2 are normal, T3 and 4 can gestalt with NPC classes other than Adepts, and T5 and 6 can gestalt with other T5s and 6s. But Grendus's works too.

JaronK

[Darth Stabber]

@Grendus - monks must be lawful, barbarians must be chaotic.

Aside from one impossible pair-up suggestion, Grendus's suggestion actually works well. There are a couple of notes if you are going to follow it though. A, watch Adepts very carefully, when you put their spell list on a better chasis, it can get really good in the hand of someone who knows opti-fu, that being said most of the time you won't see much in the way of shenanigans from them. B, lawful characters will almost always pick samurai over warrior when they are trying to get bab and a fort save, mind their code of conduct rules. C, if you are banning druid from the list classes that can gestalt you should probably add wizards, clerics, artificers, and archivists to the list as well, they are all tier 1 for a reason. D, you may as well let ToB characters gestalt, they are solid classes, but they are still tier 3. E, there is a high chance of players nabbing expert for the skills (particularly UMD), Don't let them take iaijutsu focus as well (that skill is pure cheese outside of OA and everyone that does it should be ashamed).

As an additional note, Samurai is an NPC class, don't let complete warrior fool you.

[Kittenwolf]

Good thoughts from those pointing out flaws with my briefly hashed system :)

I'm really liking the tiered one, and it's quite obviously better thought out than my example.

The GM looking at running this is actually looking at pulling a "Thanks to war X a magic bomb was dropped on the area, all arcane & divine magic has been obliterated in the area, but more esoteric sources still work". That takes care of almost all the Tier 1 & 2 classes (leaving Psion alone as the single-class 'master of casting') and viola, we have a way of running a 1-10 Gestalt campaign without so much over the top cheese. :)

[ffone]

I suggest +2 LA.

The reason is that two CR X monsters give the same XP as one CR X+2 monster (ditto encounter level with encounters; also treasure slightly-less-than doubles every two CRs,). If you raise the PCs' levels by two and double the monsters for every encounter, you get the same rate of leveling up.

Presumably doubling the number of PCs and monsters is roughly fair (of course there are some differences, like party niches, only-need-one things like the party face, and certain tactics like area effects and flanking).

Another way to look at it - the XP formulas are such that, for every two levels higher you are, you'd level up at half the speed against the same CR / EL. Doubling the number of PCs also halves the rate of leveling up (per encounter - obviously you'll finish them *faster* and more safely); so again, ECL +2 is like being two PCs.

This is b/c XP is 300 * level for CR = ECL , 200 * level for ECL-1, 400 * level for ECL+1, and halves or doubles for every two CR you go up or down; then of course you divide by the number of PCs.

Hence, LA +2 for a PC that's like two PCs. In some ways a gestalt is worse than two PCs (the biggie is, having only one set of actions) but in some ways better (getting defensive features and better HP/saves on a wizard; unusual synergy between classes, needing fewer copies of your favorite defensive items like vests of resistance, higher HD for HD based effects and max skill ranks and top spell level, etc.)

[Grendus]

Action Economy trumps those things though. Consider, a regular game would be balanced around both players having full WBL, so all that really does is mean the DM can put less treasure. Things like increased saves and other bonuses are already possible through PrC's (a strong gish build usually averages around d8 hit dice, 17 BAB, and 9th level spells, and you can do that with core + completes).

The reason I suggested keying these things to tiers is that some upper tier mixes are absurdly powerful. Wizard//Archivist has access to every arcane and divine spell in the game, and all keyed to int, you could pull off a fairly powerful Wizard//Archivist with a 15 point buy. Or mix it up with a little Factotem and shatter the action economy at the early levels.

[Noneoyabizzness]

@Grendus - monks must be lawful, barbarians must be chaotic.


and this is another reason I prefer battle dancers so much. for the barbarian gestalt so chaotic it full attack charges and hates law so much it breaks the law of gravity.