Gnome Alchemist (Pathfinder)

[panaikhan]

I'm putting together a Gnome Alchemist / Sorcerer for a Pathfinder campaign starting from Lv1.

My ideas so far:
Career Path
Starting as Alchemist, aiming for Master Chymist. Need A7 for PrC
Branching out into Sorcerery for a more versatile list of abilities.

Taken the 'Pyromaniac' Gnome substitution ability.

Contemplated Progression:
A1 - A1/S1 - A2/S1 - A3/S1 - A3/S2 - A4/S2 - A5/S2 - A5/S3 - A6/S3 - A7/S3 - A7/S3/MC1

I'm looking at this being the party "blaster", with the idea of support buffs (taking the 'infusion' discovery as early as I can).

Questions:
Is there a good way to optimise this for blaster? Do I need the sorcerer levels? Are there better options (from PHB and APHB only)?

[Gnaeus]

I would definately skip the sorcerer levels (Rule 1, never lose caster levels). Your best blastiness will come from your bombs, and 3 levels of sorcerer only detracts from that. It also hurts your combat ability. As an Alchemist, you aren't a tank, but being able to wear armor, poison your longspear and be a backup fighter is an important part of your versatility. Your best bet is probably to go straight Alchemist until you enter MC. If you need to dip, given the gishy nature of MC, I would take a single level dip in fighter, paladin, or some other class that gives +1 bab and all armor and martial weapons.

Re: buffs. I wouldn't use Infusion.
1. Brew a level 1 potion every single day (you can do it in 2 hours). You can make potions for spells that aren't even on your list with a spellcraft check that (with your Int and max ranks in Spellcraft) should be difficult to fail. When you are in town, after level 3, brew higher level potions. Hand these potions out to party members, and keep your daily extracts for yourself.
2. Get a couple of good buff wands that are on your spell list. Haste, in particular, is key, but there are some other lower level options.
3. Get bomb abilities that debuff the enemy. There are many some good ones.

If available, take the Delay Potion feat from 3.5 (CM I think) and the trait (from Chelliax) that lets you drink a potion in your hand as a move action. This will let you get a free self buff at the beginning of every combat.

[grarrrg]

I also say the Sorc levels should be dropped.
In fact, you may not want to dip at all.
Most of the better mutagens require an (effective) Alchemist level to be taken, dipping will only delay when you can take these.
If you wanted to get access to 6th level extracts, then you can only afford _1_ level of non-alchemist. 10 levels of MC gives a +7 extract/level boost, and you need an extract/level of 16 to get 6th level, that means 9 levels of Alchemist. This leaves only 1 level 'left over'.
Also, you do not need to gain Martial weap proficiency at all, because: the Brutality ability of Master Chymist only works with Simple and Natural weapons.
Although dipping to get Medium/Heavy Armor proficiency could be handy.

And two final words.
ENLARGE PERSON
Gnomes are small. Mutagen drinkers want to smash.

[Gnaeus]

Also, you do not need to gain Martial weap proficiency at all, because: the Brutality ability of Master Chymist only works with Simple and Natural weapons.
Although dipping to get Medium/Heavy Armor proficiency could be handy.

True enough, although you don't actually get brutality until level 10 earliest, and it doesn't actually give you enough of a bonus to make a longspear better than a lucerne hammer until 14. And it opens up the option of taking a longbow and firing poisoned arrows every round. Still, pure alchemist is better.

[Corlindale]

Just to echo everyone else: Don't take Sorceror levels, they'll do nothing for you but slow your Alchemist progression down. And furthermore Cha (and possibly Str) is the only stat an Alchemist can really afford to have a low score in, while a Sorceror needs it high.

For a straight blaster I would consider skipping Master Chymist, to get access to awesome high level extracts and shiny new discoveries earlier. Take feats and discoveries that boost your bombs, mainly (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Precise Bombs are all nice choices). You may also consider spending some feats on Extra Discovery, because there are so many nice ones.

I would still recommend taking Infusion, though. The key benefit is that it allows you to really take advantage of the extracts that are not normally available as potions, and also some that are normally self-only. Shield, for example, is a fantastic extract to hand out to the (non-shield wielding) melee types in the group. The line of shapechanging spells are also nice candidates later on. And of course in general the extract mimicking spells above level 3 cannot be created as potions, so you'll want Infusion eventually in any case, if you want to be a buffer.

[panaikhan]

Thanks for the input :) So Sorcerer is a no-no...

Point Blank was the feat I was going to choose at first level.
I was looking at Mutagens to keep me standing in a fight, more than the 'Crunk SMASH' approach, but still. Is there a discovery that increases your size from a mutagen?

at first level, my Alchemy is high enough to take 10 and still make standard alchemist's fire/acid, so I may use my starting cash to stock up (and pay for a padded case to stop me breaking them)

I'm new to Pathfinder - does making potions cost me XP like it does in 3.5?

[LansXero]

I think PF made away with XP costs. Are you allowed to use 3.5 material or is it PF only?

[Gnaeus]

No. No xp. Just 2 hours and 25 gp per level 1 potion.

[grarrrg]

I was looking at Mutagens to keep me standing in a fight, more than the 'Crunk SMASH' approach, but still. Is there a discovery that increases your size from a mutagen?

Yes Growth Mutagen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/master-chymist), but your Alchemist/MC level must be 16 before you can take it.
You'll have to make a potion of Enlarge Person every now and then.

[Corlindale]

I was looking at Mutagens to keep me standing in a fight, more than the 'Crunk SMASH' approach, but still. Is there a discovery that increases your size from a mutagen?

If you just want staying power and not melee offense, you won't really gain much from a size increase - in fact you'll only become easier to hit, while being no more durable. You will be harder to grapple, but that's pretty much it. Shrinking yourself is actually much more optional for a pure bomb-blaster, since it doesn't affect bomb damage and boosts your already fairly nice AC.

It's a great idea to stock up on Acid and Alch. fire - at first level they'll do as much or more damage than your bombs, and acid gives you something apart from fire to toss around, in case you run into early resistances.

[grarrrg]

If you do decide to dip a class, the 3 best options are probably: (assuming you want level 6 extracts you'll be limited to _1_ dip level)

Barbarian, get a boost to hp, Rage, Shield prof, Medium Armor, and Fast Movement (Small race + Medium Armor + Fast Movement = 20ft. movement, essentially no armor/speed penalty)
Best option for "Me Smash" fall back plan.

Rogue, the main draw here is Trapfinding, you also get a small Skill boost, and Sneak Attack 1d6.
Best option for Skill Monkey, especially if your group is lacking a Rogue/Trapfinder.

Cleric, not so much for the spells/channeling, but it does give you a boost in Will Save, Medium Armor, Shield Prof. and 2 Domains. Some domains provide a decent boost with no further levels of Cleric.
Darkness domain gets you Blind-Fight for free.
Knowledge domain lets you treat all Knowledge (X) as class skills.
Protection domain gives a +1 all saves boost.
Travel domain is worth a +10ft. movement boost.
Trickery domain gives you Bluff, Disguise, and Stealth as class skills.

[panaikhan]

OK, so i've been thinking this over a bit.
I'm not trying to squeeze every point out of a L20 build, I'm just aiming for useful and fun.
Would it benefit me having a level or two of Summoner?
If I have a mount-type Eidolon, can I ride around on it and still get all of my actions?

[Gnaeus]

You could, but you shouldn't. The Eidolon has HD = to your summoner class level. That is going to be really sad at level 20.

Getting a mount and riding it isn't a bad idea, but the Eidolon isn't going to be much better than a heavy warhorse, and gold to replace a horse is much cheaper than 2 class levels. Heck, a flying carpet or some figurines of wondrous power or a wand of Phantom Steed to UMD are all cheaper than 2 class levels, and all are at least as good as the Eidolon.

Summoner isn't a bad class, but as a 1-2 level dip it doesn't help you much.

[Cartigan]

You could, but you shouldn't. The Eidolon has HD = to your summoner class level.
No, it doesn't. It has some asinine modified HD progression.


Here's a fact: Pathfinder was consciously and actively designed to discourage multiclassing. And there is no reason to dip out of Alchemist. I don't see the point.

[Gnaeus]

That isn't what the PF SRD says. You may be right, there may be different text in the APG or an errata. But the SRD consistently says Summoners Class Level.

Edit: Oh, I see what you are saying.

As a 1-2 (or even 3) level dip, it has HD = your class level. If OP took a lot more Summoner than what he was looking at, it would fall below his class level. I only looked at the part of the chart that was relevant to this case.

[Cartigan]

That isn't what the PF SRD says. You may be right, there may be different text in the APG or an errata. But the SRD consistently says Summoners Class Level.

Edit: Oh, I see what you are saying.

As a 1-2 (or even 3) level dip, it has HD = your class level. If OP took a lot more Summoner than what he was looking at, it would fall below his class level. I only looked at the part of the chart that was relevant to this case.
They messed with the Summoner's Eidolon between beta and release to nerf it (which didn't actually bother to fix the problem with it). It's HD progression is, literally, nonsense.

[Gnaeus]

Well, either way, its no help here.

[Cartigan]

There is no reason to multiclass out of Alchemist.

[Gnaeus]

There are lots of reasons to multiclass out of alchemist. Unfortunately, they are generally weaker than pure alchemist, just like any other caster class.

If his party is generally very low-op, a dip to pick up some important ability while at the same time nerfing himself just a bit may be a good idea.

[Cartigan]

Going Master Chymist nerfs the Alchemist as whole to make it better at whatever the hell Master Chymist does.

If you want to blast things, you are certainly better at staying in Alchemist rather than trying to get first level Sorcerer spells.

[Gnaeus]

Going Master Chymist nerfs the Alchemist as whole to make it better at whatever the hell Master Chymist does.

If you want to blast things, you are certainly better at staying in Alchemist rather than trying to get first level Sorcerer spells.

MC is a Gishy PRC. It costs 3 levels of extract progression, gives bonus damage with simple or natural weapons, and gives various advanced mutagens which are mostly melee or defensive in nature, at the cost of all the advanced discoveries. It does not mesh well with being a blaster or support caster. It does advance bomb damage, and works well for melee alchemists.

[grarrrg]

I feel the need to point out that I'm not saying he SHOULD dip out of Alchemist just that IF he does, Barb/Rogue/Cleric are the 3 best options.


If his party is generally very low-op, a dip to pick up some important ability while at the same time nerfing himself just a bit may be a good idea.

Also this ^, especially in the case of "no party rogue" > dip for trapfinding.

[mikau013]

<snip>

Also this ^, especially in the case of "no party rogue" > dip for trapfinding.

Trapfinding in pathfinder is changed though, everyone can find magical traps and rogues gain a ½lvl bonus on finding and disabling traps. A dip for +1 to two skills in specific situations isn't worth it imo.

Not to mention, that although you can now get sneak attack more creatures in pathfinder, it also nerfed ways to get sneak attacks.
Leading to sneak attack not working on alchemist bombs.

[NamelessNPC]

You need Trapfinding to use disable device on magical traps