[3.5] What Else is Overpowered?

[The Rabbler]

I have a history of making powerful characters and my group calling every single one of them overpowered at some point or another (all of them were smack dab in the middle of tier 3). It finally got to me when my single-classed warblade stuck with only one shortsword and studded leather armor at level 9 got called OP for the 80 damage he was able to do. So I've decided to show them what overpowered actually means.

To do this, I'm making a bunch of characters, each with the intent on showing my group what you can do with D&D. So I ask the playground, what should I show them? So far I've got:

*Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10
*Wizard 3/Iot7FV 7/Incantatrix 10 (If I can figure out early entry tricks)
*Sorcerer 5/Incantatrix 10/something 5 (spellhoarding loredrake etc. dragonwrought kobold mailman)
*Barbarian 5/Frenzied Berserker 10/Bear Warrior 5

Most of what I have isn't all that overpowered though; most of that is simply optimized. I need help with some other truly overpowered characters. What have you got for me, playground? Anything scary powerful would be nice.

[TroubleBrewing]

Some Handy Links for CO Work (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872646/Some_handy_links_for_CO_work)

Enjoy. Scroll down to the "Fun Builds" portion. Jack B. Quick is one of my personal favorites.

[Laniius]

I'm not sure I'd call it overpowered, but maybe extremely flexible - throw in a build using Chameleon 10. Take advantage of the ability to learn spells from any spellcasting class. Haste as a level 1 spell? Yes please. Also take advantage of the caster level of 20 at ECL 15. Class X 5/Chameleon 10 will have a caster level of 20 for both arcane and divine spells at the same time if he so chooses; only up to level 6 of spells, true, but with so much possibilities.

Or make something terrifying with the Ur-Priest. I've not looked at it much myself, but a 10 level prestige class that gains up to 9th level divine spells, and you don't need spellcasting to join? Sign me up.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just to be clear, do you plan on playing any of those builds or are you just going to show your group?

If it is the former, I don't think it is a good idea it might cause some bad blood between you and your group.

If it is the latter, show them the King of Smack (one of my favourites builds ever), an spell to power erudite or if you want to be really EVIL look in the BG forum for a poster called Kell Kheraptis, he has made some of the most monstrous builds I have ever seen.

And of couse I think leaving this little link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=10.0) will be useful (it is mostly TO, but for example showing that you can make a creature with 1,067,212 attacks in a single action completely RAW legal..well I am sure it will be an eye opener)

[The Rabbler]

Just to be clear, do you plan on playing any of those builds or are you just going to show your group?

If it is the former, I don't think it is a good idea it might cause some bad blood between you and your group.

If it is the latter, show them the King of Smack (one of my favourites builds ever), an spell to power erudite or if you want to be really EVIL look in the BG forum for a poster called Kell Kheraptis, he has made some of the most monstrous builds I have ever seen.

And of couse I think leaving this little link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=10.0) will be useful (it is mostly TO, but for example showing that you can make a creature with 1,067,212 attacks in a single action completely RAW legal..well I am sure it will be an eye opener)

It's the latter, I assure you. My goal in all of this is to show the group the kinds of things that can be done if you set your mind to it. I generally build characters that have some utility to them, but I've gotten fed up with my psywar/pyro builds getting called OP.

[Grendus]

If they call 80 damage overpowered, show them the mailman.

[Douglas]

Team Solars (see sig).

[thompur]

Wizard 20.

[Sacrieur]

Wait, they think a warblade is OP? Are they playing poorly optimized tier 5 characters or something? If they consider warblade to be OP, then here is a list of classes that would also be considered OP:

Wizard, Cleric, Artificer, Erudite, Druid, Archivist, Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Binder, Psion, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, and Psionic Warrior.

Good sir, you're not OP, they're terribly under powered.

[Elric VIII]

Try Crusader 6/Ur-Priest 2/RKV10.

It's has

+19 BAB
9th level spells at CL 15 (19 with Practiced Spellcaster)
9th level Maneuvers
The ability to break the action economy in half by using Nightsticks.
You can also toss in DMM and Initiate of Mystra for fun.

[Eldariel]

FB isn't on the same planet. If you really want something stupid, go Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 1/Dweomerkeeper 10/Contemplative 5 or something of the like. Dweomerkeeper rocks your socks for serial, and is far less "questionable" entry-wise than anything relying on Polymorph Any Object, True Mind Switch or company (which can get to NPC classes).

Yeah, Planar Shepherd is fairly sick as is Incantatrix but Dweomerkeeper is dumb. Supernatural Spell with Initiate of Mystra is sick on the basis that there simply are no counters whatsoever. Nothing can be done about it. Anti-Magic Fields don't work, Dispels don't work, you get to have your invulnerability and combat buffs and all that permanently (with DMM: Persist obv). Spell-domain and company to access arcane spells obviously.

[Yuki Akuma]

Try Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 10.

9th level arcane spellcasting at caster level 19
9th level divine spellcasting at caster level 20
You don't really need anything else

Alternatively, Gnome Illusionist 3/Master Specialist 2/Shadowcrafter 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5. Take Earth Spell, Signature Spell (Silent Image) and Arcane Disciple (Luck).

You now spontaneously cast any Sorcerer/Wizard Conjuration (Summoning), Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation spell. You can also spontaneously cast Miracle. Your spells are more real than the real thing if the target succeeds his Will save.

[Douglas]

Alternatively, Gnome Illusionist 3/Master Specialist 2/Shadowcrafter 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5. Take Earth Spell, Signature Spell (Silent Image) and Arcane Disciple (Luck).

You now spontaneously cast any Sorcerer/Wizard Conjuration (Summoning), Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation spell. You can also spontaneously cast Miracle. Your spells are more real than the real thing if the target succeeds his Will save.
Don't forget Residual Metamagic. Now half of your Miracles can come from your cantrip slots. Oh, and your caster level for all of these is insanely high.

Note: the specific abuse of casting Miracle with this trick is a bit dubious, hinging on whether adding a spell to your personal spell list is enough to make it available for Shadowcraft Mage emulation which technically uses the general sor/wiz class list.

[TheGeckoKing]

Try Crusader 6/Ur-Priest 2/RKV10.

It's has

+19 BAB
9th level spells at CL 15 (19 with Practiced Spellcaster)
9th level Maneuvers
The ability to break the action economy in half by using Nightsticks.
You can also toss in DMM and Initiate of Mystra for fun.


Are we ignoring the fluff, or did we kill Wee Jas? Not that I care much, but I thought i'd ask.

[Elric VIII]

Are we ignoring the fluff, or did we kill Wee Jas? Not that I care much, but I thought i'd ask.

Does TO care about fluff? I thought about this, too. Maybe he spontaneously converted after gaining those 2 levels in Ur-Priest. AFAIK you don't lose your abilities if you start worshiping a god then use another class to progress your spellcasting.

Also, maybe you could just have your party-mate, pun pun, kill wee jas for you?:smallsigh:

[Douglas]

Are we ignoring the fluff, or did we kill Wee Jas? Not that I care much, but I thought i'd ask.
Worse than that, he's breaking a non-fluff rule! Initiate of Mystra specifically requires 3 levels in Cleric.

Also, there's the additional fluff conflict of worshiping Mystra for the feat vs not worshiping any deity for Ur-Priest.

[TheGeckoKing]

I always though you lost your Ur-Priest powers if you started worshiping a god, but I could be wrong. Anyway, worshiping any two of Wee Jas, Mystra or Godhater-ism could be swung with a Dvati character, but I can't see all three going together. Someone, find me a way!

[Elric VIII]

I always though you lost your Ur-Priest powers if you started worshiping a god, but I could be wrong. Anyway, worshiping any two of Wee Jas, Mystra or Godhater-ism could be swung with a Dvati character, but I can't see all three going together. Someone, find me a way!

Ok, so there are more fluff holes than I originally thought. However, isn't there a RKV adaptation that mentions other gods?

[TheGeckoKing]

Probably is, actually. Also, I always wondered how the d2 Crusader worked. Something about abusing a re-roll of natural 1's, but i'm not sure. Anyone care to explain?

[Veyr]

Have a weapon that deals 1d2 damage.

Have an ability that allows you to reroll natural-1s indefinitely (a few exist).

Be in the Devoted Spirit stance that allows you to reroll-and-add every time you roll the maximum value on a damage die.

Now, when you hit, you roll for damage, so you roll 1d2. If you get a 1, you reroll. If you get a 2, you keep it and reroll. At no point do you stop rolling. You therefore have infinite damage.

[Slipperychicken]

Rambling
I feel your pain; my first session, I was dealing ~36-40 damage with a Crusader12, barely survived an encounter with the Cleric Kill-Team, and the DM (who hadn't used ToB) almost made Divine Surge a 1/day.


Relevant Part:
Well, I've heard about Tainted Scholars with immunity to taint (or was it con damage? not really sure) to get infinite spells or something (Haven't worked much with casters). The Beholder Mage PrC also has a bad 'rep for casting 9+ spells as free actions per round, especially when you replace beholder-HD with class levels via level-drain. Artificers can craft every spell in the game, and Warforged Artificer is even more broken (I think it's the infuse self). Diplomacy smashes the game right in half when you can reliably make a DC 60 to turn enemies from Hostile to Friendly in 6 seconds, no opposed roll, no save, no SR, nothing.


Idiotic Derail: Some alternate suggestions for your group calling you OP, in case the cheese-sniffing doesn't work out.

A) Bring them up to your level: teach them the Sacred Art of Opti-Fu so they can do "overpowered" things as well, making them not feel so overpowered any more.

B) Optimize a healer/buffer/support-type; you may not be into this, but their kills won't be stolen, and no one complains about overpowered healing when his/her character's at -4 and dropping.

C) Make an "adjustible" character: one which can stick around Tier 3-4 until the party gets into The Danger Zone(tm), at which you save them with your convenient surge of awesomeness

[Douglas]

Probably is, actually. Also, I always wondered how the d2 Crusader worked. Something about abusing a re-roll of natural 1's, but i'm not sure. Anyone care to explain?
Aura of Chaos stance from Tome of Battle: any time you roll maximum on a damage die, you may reroll it and add. If the reroll is also maximum, you can reroll it again, theoretically without limit.

Imbued Healing feat from Complete Scoundrel (I think): If you choose the Luck domain option, you can cast a healing spell on yourself and for a few rounds following that, any 1 you roll on a damage die is treated as a 2.

Get a weapon that does 1d2 damage.

1) Cast your healing spell.
2) Attack and hit with your weapon.
3) Roll the d2.
4) If it's a 2, Aura of Chaos triggers go to 3) and add.
5) If it's a 1, Imbued Healing changes it to a 2, Aura of Chaos triggers, go to 3) and add.
6) Whenever you feel like your damage total is sufficient, stop the loop (Aura of Chaos's reroll is optional) and announce the amount of damage you "rolled".
7) Watch as whatever you hit explodes into ludicrous gibs from arbitrarily extreme overkill.

[Draz74]

The gold standard for non-magical, non-spellcasting game-breaking characters is the Hulking Hurler with optimized Strength score.


Aura of Chaos stance from Tome of Battle: any time you roll maximum on a damage die, you may reroll it and add. If the reroll is also maximum, you can reroll it again, theoretically without limit.

Imbued Healing feat from Complete Champion (I think): If you choose the Luck domain option, you can cast a healing spell on yourself and for a few rounds following that, any 1 you roll on a damage die is treated as a 2.

Get a weapon that does 1d2 damage.

1) Cast your healing spell.
2) Attack and hit with your weapon.
3) Roll the d2.
4) If it's a 2, Aura of Chaos triggers go to 3) and add.
5) If it's a 1, Imbued Healing changes it to a 2, Aura of Chaos triggers, go to 3) and add.
6) Whenever you feel like your damage total is sufficient, stop the loop (Aura of Chaos's reroll is optional) and announce the amount of damage you "rolled".
7) Watch as whatever you hit explodes into ludicrous gibs from arbitrarily extreme overkill.
8) Keep rolling, because at no point does RAW allow you to actually stop adding additional layers of +2 damage. :smallamused:

Fixed that for you.

[TheGeckoKing]

Aura of Chaos stance from Tome of Battle: any time you roll maximum on a damage die, you may reroll it and add. If the reroll is also maximum, you can reroll it again, theoretically without limit.

Imbued Healing feat from Complete Scoundrel (I think): If you choose the Luck domain option, you can cast a healing spell on yourself and for a few rounds following that, any 1 you roll on a damage die is treated as a 2.

Get a weapon that does 1d2 damage.

1) Cast your healing spell.
2) Attack and hit with your weapon.
3) Roll the d2.
4) If it's a 2, Aura of Chaos triggers go to 3) and add.
5) If it's a 1, Imbued Healing changes it to a 2, Aura of Chaos triggers, go to 3) and add.
6) Whenever you feel like your damage total is sufficient, stop the loop (Aura of Chaos's reroll is optional) and announce the amount of damage you "rolled".
7) Watch as whatever you hit explodes into ludicrous gibs from arbitrarily extreme overkill.

Oh, that's quite over-killy. If Draz is right, it also makes for a good way of keeping a Tarrasque under control (Provided you didn't just Wish it dead). Get a few hundred Elans, get them under full control (Monstrous Thrall, anyone?), give them levels in Crusader, get the Tarassque unconscious, and have them hack away endlessly. Once you get them started, they can't stop even if everyone wants them to.

[Yuki Akuma]

Alternatively, time stops while the world waits for them to finish calculating damage, but they never do.

[Soren Hero]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7809640#post7809640

this build is even more overpowerd than the wiz/urpriest/mystic combo

[Douglas]

Oh, that's quite over-killy. If Draz is right, it also makes for a good way of keeping a Tarrasque under control (Provided you didn't just Wish it dead). Get a few hundred Elans, get them under full control (Monstrous Thrall, anyone?), give them levels in Crusader, get the Tarassque unconscious, and have them hack away endlessly. Once you get them started, they can't stop even if everyone wants them to.
No need for slaves repeatedly hacking away, all it takes is a single hit from one guy. That arbitrary overkill? It all comes from one hit. One guy walks in, takes one swing, and walks out in the space of about 3 rounds, and big T has an amount of nonlethal damage greater than Graham's Number.


Alternatively, time stops while the world waits for them to finish calculating damage, but they never do.
Actually, continuing the loop is optional. They can stop calculating whenever they want to.

Edit: Just noticed Draz's post. Read Aura of Chaos again, Draz. It quite clearly says that you "can" continue rolling.

[Yuki Akuma]

Please read Draz74's post.

I'll wait.

...

Okay, done?

Yeah, you can't choose to stop rolling.

[Jarian]

Please read Draz74's post.

I'll wait.

...

Okay, done?

Yeah, you can't choose to stop rolling.

Please read the relevant abilities.

One says you reroll and add.

The other says you MAY.

...

Okay, done?

Yeah, you can choose to stop rolling.

[Douglas]

I just double checked the full text of Aura of Chaos. It states that you "can" continue rolling, not that you must.

[TheGeckoKing]

Alternatively, time stops while the world waits for them to finish calculating damage, but they never do.

I smell an epic quest, provided we go with "You can't stop rolling" or at least "The Crusader doesn't want to stop".

"Many days past, an epic and fanatical Crusader of Chaos was tasked with slaying an immortal beast by the whims of his impossible god, and so he did his best to do so. Alas, he did not have access to magic, and so in an act of desperation he locked himself and all of time in an endless loop.
However, you and a blessed few by one Epic way or another were exempt from this locking, and you now act outside of time with the rest of reality frozen. You are not alone, however.
Swiftblades, with the energy of speed in their blood, were also freed from the Loop of Chaos and now roam the land in roving bands, searching for answers or plunder. Phanes, abominations from beyond time, ignore the binds that hold reality and take over the frozen land with armies of time-displaced thralls. The enigmatic leShey have stopped hiding now most of their enemies are silent, and start fighting the Phanes and their armies, threatening to tear the helpless land apart.
You must transverse the Time-Frozen Lands, quash the armies of the leShey and the Phanes, avoid or conquer the Swiftblade Hoards, and free the Crusader of Chaos from his endless prison, freeing the land from lockdown and allowing the Gods to punish the God of Chaos who instigated this in the first place."

[lesser_minion]

I just double checked the full text of Aura of Chaos. It states that you "can" continue rolling, not that you must.

"You can" is neither "you may" nor "you must" -- it says nothing about whether or not something is mandatory, merely whether or not it is possible. It doesn't make the Aura of Chaos re-roll optional unless it was already.

The previous sentence, "When one or more of your damage dice show the maximum result possible..." on the other hand, makes it quite clear that it is mandatory.

[Vulaas]

One of my favorite OP characters is the Ubermount, and the various improved versions of it. I know it's relatively tame by CO standards, but the idea of turning an animal companion/mount/familiar into Godzilla (or something worse) is just charming for me.

[Jarian]

"You can" is neither "you may" nor "you must"

What.

If you ignore the fact that the dictionary definition of "can", you know, explicitly uses "may" as a explanatory word, then sure, it doesn't mean that.

Are we speaking the same English here?

I'm not trying to defend 1d2 Crusaders, but... really now.

[JaronK]

Here's the thing. If your group says your 80 damage Warblade was overpowered... then it was. It was overpowered for that group. Not overpowered for most groups perhaps, not overpowered for most campaigns, but for them it was. Showing them that there's other stuff that's even worse won't help anything, any more than showing someone who thinks jaywalking is immoral that murder exists will make them think better of jaywalking.

Why don't you try just matching the group for a while? See what their characters are capable of doing, and match that. If that can't work for you, you're the odd one out... you're going to have to find a group that better matches your style.

JaronK

[Jarian]

Why don't you try just matching the group for a while? See what their characters are capable of doing, and match that. If that can't work for you, you're the odd one out... you're going to have to find a group that better matches your style.

As a less drastic approach, you can first try telling them not to take Monkey Grip on their Monks. Use basic math to show why their characters needn't be so woefully underpowered - and that with a few (optional) tweaks, their characters could represent heroes more than farmhands with pointy sticks. It could work.

If they like being farmhands though, you're basically SoL.

Agreed with the relative overpoweredness bit, however.

[Sacrieur]

What.

If you ignore the fact that the dictionary definition of "can", you know, explicitly uses "may" as a explanatory word, then sure, it doesn't mean that.

Are we speaking the same English here?

I'm not trying to defend 1d2 Crusaders, but... really now.

In English, may is used to represent permission. That is, asking if you may use the restroom is asking if you are permitted to use the restroom.

Can, however, is used to represent whether one is able to perform. Asking, "can I use the restroom?" is the equivalent of asking, "Am I physically able to use the restroom?" In most contexts, this is an improper usage (which is why there is a hissy fit about using can rather than may).

Stating that you can perform an action in this D&D sense means that you are able to perform it (which is clearly the case for everyone, unless the DM chains you to a chair and physically stops you from rolling your dice). It is actually a bit of a typo. It should read may, since may is more clear as to permitting you to break the rules.

---


Here's the thing. If your group says your 80 damage Warblade was overpowered... then it was. It was overpowered for that group. Not overpowered for most groups perhaps, not overpowered for most campaigns, but for them it was. Showing them that there's other stuff that's even worse won't help anything, any more than showing someone who thinks jaywalking is immoral that murder exists will make them think better of jaywalking.

Why don't you try just matching the group for a while? See what their characters are capable of doing, and match that. If that can't work for you, you're the odd one out... you're going to have to find a group that better matches your style.

JaronK

I have to disagree with this. I mean it sounds good and all, but you forget that the classes they are playing are tier 5/6. These are often useless or one-trick ponies. I don't like playing one-trick ponies.

[Akal Saris]

In English, may is used to represent permission. That is, asking if you may use the restroom is asking if you are permitted to use the restroom.

Can, however, is used to represent whether one is able to perform. Asking, "can I use the restroom?" is the equivalent of asking, "Am I physically able to use the restroom?" In most contexts, this is an improper usage (which is why there is a hissy fit about using can rather than may).

Stating that you can perform an action in this D&D sense means that you are able to perform it (which is clearly the case for everyone, unless the DM chains you to a chair and physically stops you from rolling your dice). It is actually a bit of a typo. It should read may, since may is more clear as to permitting you to break the rules.

---



I have to disagree with this. I mean it sounds good and all, but you forget that the classes they are playing are tier 5/6. These are often useless or one-trick ponies. I don't like playing one-trick ponies.

Wait, are you the same guy who started the thread? Because unless I missed it, nobody in this thread has been told what tier the other players' characters are, except that the OP defines himself as tier 3. Which is all well and good, but if the others are playing healbot clerics, blaster evokers, a sword+board fighter dealing 1d8+6 a hit, and rogues that fire a bow and don't use sneak attack, then yes, a warblade dealing 80 dmg in one attack with a mundane weapon is pretty "OP", and the player should probably recognize that.

I agree with JaronK that demonstrating the ridiculousness of other builds probably won't win any converts for the guy.

But hell, show them the Hulking Hurler just for laughs :P

[Warlawk]

Aura of Chaos stance from Tome of Battle: any time you roll maximum on a damage die, you may reroll it and add. If the reroll is also maximum, you can reroll it again, theoretically without limit.

Imbued Healing feat from Complete Scoundrel (I think): If you choose the Luck domain option, you can cast a healing spell on yourself and for a few rounds following that, any 1 you roll on a damage die is treated as a 2.

Get a weapon that does 1d2 damage.

1) Cast your healing spell.
2) Attack and hit with your weapon.
3) Roll the d2.
4) If it's a 2, Aura of Chaos triggers go to 3) and add.
5) If it's a 1, Imbued Healing changes it to a 2, Aura of Chaos triggers, go to 3) and add.
6) Whenever you feel like your damage total is sufficient, stop the loop (Aura of Chaos's reroll is optional) and announce the amount of damage you "rolled".
7) Watch as whatever you hit explodes into ludicrous gibs from arbitrarily extreme overkill.

I've known about the d2 crusder for quite a while, and actually I almost wish someone would play one next time I run a game. I wouldn't even be picky about the can/may silliness or anything.

When you make an attack, you roll your damage die. One singular die at a time, because you have to know the result of your die roll before you know if you can roll another die. Further, you will write the result of every roll on a piece of paper so I can verify accuracy of your rolls. If you want to deal 500 damage, you will roll the requisite number of times to get that damage result.

I'm not sure if I would prefer to add that:
We will be implementing a 1 minute limit for each players turn during combat situations.

or

You may take as much time as you like for your turn, but we will not be waiting and combat will continue around you, skipping your turns as necessary to keep the action moving.

You want to bring a build like that to the table, you can do things exactly RAW (rolling a single damage die, rerolls in sequence), you can prove your bookwork (recording the rolls) and your character will not interfere with the flow of play. In short, you want to be a pedantic rules lawyer, you can sleep in the bed you made.

Man, threads like these make me thankful for my long running gaming group. Theoretical CO is all good, but most of those things have no place at any realistic gaming table (I will grant some groups just run on that level, and that's fine, and some groups run one shot/short games at that level... also fine. I mean people bringing that stuff to a T3ish or low OP table and expecting to play it without a hitch.)

[HeadlessMermaid]

Team Solars (see sig).
Quick question: how does a Crusader/Master of Nine get Shapechange?

(Forgive me if the answer was somewhere in that thread. If so, I failed to spot it.)

[Draz74]

I just double checked the full text of Aura of Chaos. It states that you "can" continue rolling, not that you must.

I don't really care which way the grammar debate comes down, since obviously any DM will let the Crusader stop rolling damage once the target is dead (unless he is just using the rule as a disguise for the fact that he's banning the cheesy build entirely).

My adding Step 8 was meant as a joke, not as any sort of rebuttal to douglas' excellent summary. Mostly I was just intending to correct the source of Imbued Healing.

[Douglas]

Quick question: how does a Crusader/Master of Nine get Shapechange?

(Forgive me if the answer was somewhere in that thread. If so, I failed to spot it.)
From one of the other party members. Check out the section of post 3 that starts with "Buffing:". It outlines the procedure for casting all of the listed buffs on everyone.

[HeadlessMermaid]

From one of the other party members. Check out the section of post 3 that starts with "Buffing:". It outlines the procedure for casting all of the listed buffs on everyone.
Oh, alright, thanks.

[The Rabbler]

Sorry that I haven't had a chance to reply to this post until now.

To those who've posted the builds that now haunt my deepest nightmares, I thank you; My group will learn.

In response to JaronK's comment, I provide a chest-high wall of text.
We have a very large group (10+ people) and several of our players are completely new. Aside from myself, there's only one player who optimizes and only one other player who knows how to. The rest of the characters are played at a tier 4-5 (including the wizards, druids, clerics, and psions) level with many of them being one-trick bronies (couldn't resist :smallbiggrin:) and, as I've mentioned, my tier 3 characters are standing out. I mostly play the "tank" and after my psywar chain tripper was regarded as completely broken, I do so with single-classed warblades/crusaders these days.

I've tried teaching them some of the basics of optimization and a couple of them have started catching on (the sorcerer learned grease!) but the characters still get beaten pretty quickly (apparently my warlock/swordsage/chameleon (CL 4) was the only one who could dispel an antimagic field). I'm wide open for suggestions if anyone has any ways of teaching them how to make stronger characters, but at this point, I'm just trying to scare them into leaving my characters alone.