[3.5] How do I Boost my Power Attack without being an Uber Charger? [Archive]

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-30, 12:06 PM

Leap Attack and Headlong Rush are the two damage multipliers that work with charges. Frenzied Berzerker's Improved Power Attack doesn't require charging. If your damage is already high enough to one-shot most threats, it shouldn't matter if you only have a x3 multiplier or +50% damage bonus. The best way to increase the damage on PA is with static bonuses so they get included with the multiplied damage: Collision weapon, Kensai's Power Surge, Craven, etc.

I should take another look at Leap Attack and see exactly what I'm reading... although I think I could simply use "A Newb's Guide to Power Attack" so I know all the stipulations on it. And where do I find these other things you listed (except Frenzied Berzerker, which is unfortunately a Multiclass, or I'd have had my character sell his soul to take Improved Power Attack... maybe that's an option or a feat somewhere...)?

Savage Species has some rules for increasing the multiplier on your Strength bonus for having multiple arms.

I don't think a plain old human can have multiple arms... can we? :smalleek:

There are at least two, but they don't play nicely with Power Attack:

Snow Tiger Berserker (Unapproachable East p. 45). Requires rage (but not Barbarian levels) and some membership fluff requirements, but can only be used with light weapons.

Lion Tribe Warrior (Shining South p. 20). Human-only and some different membership fluff requirements, but can only be used with a single light weapon.

Someone just got Sword-Saged, Someone just got Sword-Saged...

Unarmed strikes and natural weapons are the only light weapons you can use with Power Attack, but you don't get any damage multipliers on those, and natural weapons can't be used for iterative attacks.

It'd be cool to be able to have the option to punch people out, but I think I'll carry an extra basic Long Sword just to be safe (in addition to the Dagger I'd need to be able to cut my way out of being eaten whole).

Well, a +1 Transmuting weapon is 18,000g for just the enchantment. Size won't affect this. Then you pay the 300g for the MW component. I can't seem to find any pricing for huge sized weapons though...I dunno, but that shouldn't affect cost hardly at all, not with respect to the 18,000g for the enchantment.

If I was you, though, I'd craft my base weapon out of Adamantine or Star Metal. Adamantine is +3000g, and makes no reference to size, while Star Metal is +5000g, and is identical to Admanatine except that it gets a little bit of bonus damage vs certain creature types, always handy. That gives you the properties of Adamantine, which are useful for resisting enemy sunders and crafting improvised doors and windows from dungeon walls.

Hm.... I wonder at which level I can afford 23,700g. Although I'm certain that's not -too- expensive. Size only means the base weapon price gets doubled for one size bigger, and trippled or quadrupled, if I remember right, for being 2 sizes bigger. Huge in my case. Although compared to the magicy upgrades it would have, 50x4 isn't all that much.

And then how would Brilliant Energy affect the total bill?

Keld Denar

2011-03-30, 12:31 PM

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-30, 12:42 PM

Brilliant Energy is a +4 equiv, so...it would be 50,000g AT LEAST, assuming you buy just a +1 BE weapon. A +1 BE Transmuting weapon would be a +7 total value, weighing in at 98,000g + applicable MW costs and sales tax.

I'ma take another look at the Player Level Wealth Chart Thing, since I'm not sure I'll be able to -ever- afford something like -that-. :smalleek: Thank God I've got Emerald Razor...

*off topic, yet still related to the topic*
This probably isn't the place to ask such a question, but where would I go, thread wise, to ask about NPC Creation? Should the case of the feats/build being used for the Wizard and Fighter creating items and such ever become an issue, having something to back it up would be cool. And while I was there, I might ask about help in creating an Animal Template. Story Lines and all.
*end off topic discussion*

Malevolence

2011-03-30, 12:53 PM

Brilliant Energy is really bad, because it doesn't ignore natural armor, and that's where most AC comes from anyways. It also means you can't affect non living opponents at all.

VirOath

2011-03-30, 12:59 PM

I'm just going to toss out that you should forget entirely about BE. It only ignores armor bonuses and shield bonuses, and enhancements to those bonuses. It's barely worth it if, and only if, you're fighting a ton of Humanoids.

Natural Armor, Deflection, Divine/Profane, Dodge and pretty much every other bonus you can think of isn't stripped by BE. So most monsters and magical creatures aren't even going to be affected by BE, no armor bonus. Add to it that it doesn't even harm anything without a con score, and it's massively overpriced.

It's actually something that's better against the PCs than used by them.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-30, 01:09 PM

Brilliant Energy is really bad, because it doesn't ignore natural armor, and that's where most AC comes from anyways. It also means you can't affect non living opponents at all.

I'm just going to toss out that you should forget entirely about BE. It only ignores armor bonuses and shield bonuses, and enhancements to those bonuses. It's barely worth it if, and only if, you're fighting a ton of Humanoids.

Natural Armor, Deflection, Divine/Profane, Dodge and pretty much every other bonus you can think of isn't stripped by BE. So most monsters and magical creatures aren't even going to be affected by BE, no armor bonus. Add to it that it doesn't even harm anything without a con score, and it's massively overpriced.

It's actually something that's better against the PCs than used by them.

Yeah, I seem to be nerfing my weapon rather than upgrading it... and for about 4x the price the weapon would have been without it.

I unfortunately might need to forget about Hyper Power Attack Damage as well, since it seems that it outright requires Charging and Multiclassing to accomplish... I could do it, but that means I'd have to be a Charger, and I was hopig I'd be able to simply slash normally.

Is this really the case? Is the most effective way to do damage within melee making yourself a super battering ram? Are my dreams of slicing through anything with a single strike (or storm of strikes) all for naught?
WAAAAANGST!

Daftendirekt

2011-03-30, 01:15 PM

Just curious, what do you have against charge that made you try to avoid it at all costs, especially when you clearly knew how much it boosts Power Attack?

Keld Denar

2011-03-30, 01:17 PM

If you want to milk every last drop out of a charge, you pretty much have to multiclass.

That said, you'll still be VERY effective on a charge, especially as a Warblade. You have access to the Pouncing Charge maneuver, all of the X-Leader's Charge maneuvers, the Leading the Charge stance, and a host of other things.

As the very wise Person_Man pointed out, damage output is kinda irrelevant past a certain point. You're DM will simply add HP to your foes to keep you from 1shotting them, or give you so many foes that red-misting at any single one results in death inflicted by the others.

Trust me, you'll be fine without pounce at will. Keep 1-2 standard action strikes, 1-2 charge maneuvers, and 1-2 defensive maneuvers and you'll be ready for anything.

Curmudgeon

2011-03-30, 01:22 PM

The way to make Snow Tiger Berserker work is with an unarmed combatant, because unarmed strikes are light weapons that still work with Power Attack. A daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop will get you to where you've got significant unarmed damage.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-30, 02:06 PM

Just curious, what do you have against charge that made you try to avoid it at all costs, especially when you clearly knew how much it boosts Power Attack?

He is always watching.... always.... :smallfrown: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqqs6t7AmSM&feature=related)

Seriously though, in one of my previous groups, in combat, it pretty much went to "did the Charger Leave anything alive" or "did the Mage leave anything alive after the Charger left some survivors". The group I'm with this time is a little more mature, but I wanna avoid being -that guy-. You guys know who -that guy- is.

*edited in*
Don't get me wrong, I'm looking to be able to do some massive damage as well. Just not -quite- that much.

If you want to milk every last drop out of a charge, you pretty much have to multiclass. That said, you'll still be VERY effective on a charge, especially as a Warblade. You have access to the Pouncing Charge maneuver, all of the X-Leader's Charge maneuvers, the Leading the Charge stance, and a host of other things.

As the very wise Person_Man pointed out, damage output is kinda irrelevant past a certain point. You're DM will simply add HP to your foes to keep you from 1shotting them, or give you so many foes that red-misting at any single one results in death inflicted by the others.

Trust me, you'll be fine without pounce at will. Keep 1-2 standard action strikes, 1-2 charge maneuvers, and 1-2 defensive maneuvers and you'll be ready for anything.

I'm aiming to get every single point out of Power Attack, to be honest. Not specifically looking for Charge at this junction. I think I like the Warblade because maneuvers and abilities means I can assume a handful of roles. But with there already being a 2 weapon user, a ranged user user, and a lightish skirmisher, I wanna focus on Heavy Damage. But again, we had a Charger... wasn't as fun around him as you'd think.

The way to make Snow Tiger Berserker work is with an unarmed combatant, because unarmed strikes are light weapons that still work with Power Attack. A daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop will get you to where you've got significant unarmed damage.

Now I'd like that, but assuming our Arcane Spell Caster learns Greater Mighty Wallop, we've got a Monk in the party, and I don't wanna step on his toes with the unarmed / light combat.

Malevolence

2011-03-30, 05:50 PM

Keld Denar

2011-03-30, 05:59 PM

What do you consider extremely low? At level 10, is 50 damage per round low? 100? 200? 500? What about 15?

Just curious. I find when you start getting much above 10x you level in damage per round, things just kinda break down into the oft cited rocket tag. Your damage is so high, you kill anything you look at. In response, you face harder foes who's damage is so high, they kill you if you miss or they go first.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of optimization. Check my post history if you want. Its good to be good at what you are supposed to be doing, but the mental masturbation of having a say...a level 5 character break 100 damage per round consistantly means that your character is statistically going to end up as a smear on the floor of some dungeon regardless of what you do.

We did fine in Living Greyhawk against tough foes without Leap Attack, and even without Pounce most of the time, as there were only about 2-3 ways to legally get pounce with the LG ruleset. Fights in LG were hard, but rewarding with the tools we had. If someone brought even half of an optimized ubercharger into that environment, they would break it so wide open that it would be silly.

I'm just saying that if you dial things up to too high of a level, the game becomes REALLY deadly, by nature, and that might not always be fun for everyone.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-31, 01:12 AM

Thing is, it's effectively impossible to do relevant amounts of damage without charging. It takes super gishes to do it, which means even more optimization than a charger. It isn't just that you lose a huge amount of raw damage, it's that Pounce is the main way to move and still do enough damage to matter. Which means without it, your practical damage is extremely low due to only getting one attack. The only other ways of doing it have extreme limitations on their use. Belt of Battle only works 3/day, and only at higher levels when you can afford it and has an action cost, Hustle only works for psionic gishes and has an action cost as well but can probably be used more often, and Travel Devotion saps 3 turns for every use beyond the first, not to mention requires a Cloistered Cleric dip or something to get in the first place. And it too has an action cost.

A) Who said you had to be a Cleric to take a Devotion Feat again? So long as the Feat corresponds to a set of ideals a character has (and people with a love for adventure, change, and opportunity seem like the types to take Travel Devotion), nothing says you can't take such a Feat. Or am I reading something wrong? :smalleek:

B) How does it sap 3 turns for every use beyond the first? Admitedly, it's a house-rule that characters with the ability to channel positive or negative energy can re-enable a Devotion Feat, even in another character, so long as moral allignments match, but even without that bonus, I don't see where it says it makes me lose turns.

C) What action cost?

Just asking to ensure I'm not crippling myself by taking this feat.

Edit: If you have a Monk in the party, you're going to overshadow him no matter what, unless you deliberately strive to be completely useless, and likely even then. So don't worry about it - it cannot be helped. All remotely decent characters will trivially outperform a Monk, not to mention anything good enough to survive campaigns.

Are Monks like the poor Retarded Kid, who gets included only because you feel bad for leaving him out, but when he's gone you talk smack about him? Poor Monks...

What do you consider extremely low? At level 10, is 50 damage per round low? 100? 200? 500? What about 15?

Just curious. I find when you start getting much above 10x you level in damage per round, things just kinda break down into the oft cited rocket tag. Your damage is so high, you kill anything you look at. In response, you face harder foes who's damage is so high, they kill you if you miss or they go first.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of optimization. Check my post history if you want. Its good to be good at what you are supposed to be doing, but the mental masturbation of having a say...a level 5 character break 100 damage per round consistantly means that your character is statistically going to end up as a smear on the floor of some dungeon regardless of what you do.

We did fine in Living Greyhawk against tough foes without Leap Attack, and even without Pounce most of the time, as there were only about 2-3 ways to legally get pounce with the LG ruleset. Fights in LG were hard, but rewarding with the tools we had. If someone brought even half of an optimized ubercharger into that environment, they would break it so wide open that it would be silly.

I'm just saying that if you dial things up to too high of a level, the game becomes REALLY deadly, by nature, and that might not always be fun for everyone.

I've seen that hurtle. The Uber Charger actually caused an Arms Race that we really weren't prepared for. I'm just looking to increase the already great versatility of the Warblade by allowing him to power up his attacks, but without making him slam into everything and instantly kill it in the process... at least not until I expend a Maneuver and roll out some massive damage when needed. Which reminds me: Which Maneuvers work with Power Attack? Specifically Iron Heart and Diamond Mind?

You guys sure there's no d20, even possibly 3rd-partyish,dm-judgement-call-on-allowing material that would increase Power Attack? Or do I specifically simply have to charge for it? Heck, I found 1 Feat in the Ultimate Feats book, and while I'm tempted to take it, it only works if my target is Large or Bigger, and it'd stink if we suddenly got swarmed by armies of little guys (although I could just take Cleave and Greater Cleave and have fun weed wacking...).

Vangor

2011-03-31, 01:19 AM

What I can think of for boosting PA are all charge related. They go hand-in-hand, charging and putting the full force behind a blow.

Keld Denar

2011-03-31, 01:50 AM

Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw are actually two of the best schools for PAing. Diamond Mind has things like Emerald Razor, which allows you to PA for full, or near full, but it also has Ruby Nightmare Blade and Diamond Nightmare Blade which give you additional multipliers. Tiger Claw has a few strikes that give you a bonus to hit, which you can then convert to a PA damage boost. Not many, but some.

Curmudgeon

2011-03-31, 04:11 AM

B) How does it sap 3 turns for every use beyond the first? Admitedly, it's a house-rule that characters with the ability to channel positive or negative energy can re-enable a Devotion Feat, even in another character, so long as moral allignments match, but even without that bonus, I don't see where it says it makes me lose turns.
I think Malevolence may have been referring to undead turn attempts. But it's 2 turn attempts, not 3.

If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each two daily turn or rebuke uses you expend.

C) What action cost?
There are two action costs with Travel Devotion: loss of your single swift action each round
Benefit: Once per day as a swift action, you can activate this ability to move up to your speed as a swift action each round. and loss of the option to make a 5' adjustment.

Special: You cannot take a 5-foot step in the same round that you use this feat to move as a swift action.

Malevolence

2011-03-31, 08:24 AM

What do you consider extremely low? At level 10, is 50 damage per round low? 100? 200? 500? What about 15?

At level 10, 50 is extremely low, 100 is low, 200 is good, 500 is overkill. At 15 50 isn't worth writing down, 100 is extremely low, 200 is low, 500 is good. The minimum numbers you should have are 150 at 10, and 350 at 15.

Just curious. I find when you start getting much above 10x you level in damage per round, things just kinda break down into the oft cited rocket tag. Your damage is so high, you kill anything you look at. In response, you face harder foes who's damage is so high, they kill you if you miss or they go first.

The game is already rocket tag. It is already full of enemies that will 1-2 round you quite easily. All you have done is ensure you can kill them faster, thereby allowing you to not drop dead in every single fight. A standard, unoptimized, basic normal fight at 10 leaves you having to plow through 140 HP. The same thing at 15 means you have to plow through around 300. Add in any amount of enemy optimization, harder than normal fights etc and you need more. And remember, only the last counts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of optimization. Check my post history if you want. Its good to be good at what you are supposed to be doing, but the mental masturbation of having a say...a level 5 character break 100 damage per round consistantly means that your character is statistically going to end up as a smear on the floor of some dungeon regardless of what you do.

100 at 5 is slight overkill, but having the rockets to take enemies out before they rocket you down means you don't get flattened, not that you do.

We did fine in Living Greyhawk against tough foes without Leap Attack, and even without Pounce most of the time, as there were only about 2-3 ways to legally get pounce with the LG ruleset. Fights in LG were hard, but rewarding with the tools we had. If someone brought even half of an optimized ubercharger into that environment, they would break it so wide open that it would be silly.

I'm just saying that if you dial things up to too high of a level, the game becomes REALLY deadly, by nature, and that might not always be fun for everyone.

Yes, casters can still win fights. But if you want to bring beatsticks to the table, you need your deeps up or you're wasting everyone's time.

A) Who said you had to be a Cleric to take a Devotion Feat again? So long as the Feat corresponds to a set of ideals a character has (and people with a love for adventure, change, and opportunity seem like the types to take Travel Devotion), nothing says you can't take such a Feat. Or am I reading something wrong? :smalleek:

You don't have to be, but Clerics can do it a lot easier than anyone else, and they also have the turn attempts to recharge it. Without either of those things you're using a feat slot on something that can only be used once a day.

B) How does it sap 3 turns for every use beyond the first? Admitedly, it's a house-rule that characters with the ability to channel positive or negative energy can re-enable a Devotion Feat, even in another character, so long as moral allignments match, but even without that bonus, I don't see where it says it makes me lose turns.

It costs turn attempts to recharge it. Actually 2, not 3, but that still means you have to have some in order to recharge it.

C) What action cost?

Just asking to ensure I'm not crippling myself by taking this feat.

Burns Swift actions, can't 5 foot step.

Are Monks like the poor Retarded Kid, who gets included only because you feel bad for leaving him out, but when he's gone you talk smack about him? Poor Monks...

I make fun of Monks to their face. Interestingly enough, no one has ever tried to play a Mook around me.

I've seen that hurtle. The Uber Charger actually caused an Arms Race that we really weren't prepared for. I'm just looking to increase the already great versatility of the Warblade by allowing him to power up his attacks, but without making him slam into everything and instantly kill it in the process... at least not until I expend a Maneuver and roll out some massive damage when needed. Which reminds me: Which Maneuvers work with Power Attack? Specifically Iron Heart and Diamond Mind?

The game is already rocket tag. Making sure you have rockets doesn't escalate anything, it just means you don't get rocketed down in fight 1.

You guys sure there's no d20, even possibly 3rd-partyish,dm-judgement-call-on-allowing material that would increase Power Attack? Or do I specifically simply have to charge for it? Heck, I found 1 Feat in the Ultimate Feats book, and while I'm tempted to take it, it only works if my target is Large or Bigger, and it'd stink if we suddenly got swarmed by armies of little guys (although I could just take Cleave and Greater Cleave and have fun weed wacking...).

If you're going to get into terribly balanced homebrew, you might as well make a feat called I Win D&D. It does exactly what the name implies.

ericgrau

2011-03-31, 10:36 AM

The basics of power attack at low level are to balance damage and hit rate. At high level your damage is already so high that you almost never want to sacrifice 5.3-7% of your damage through not hitting for a measly 2 points of damage. Thus without the ubercharger feat lines you need ways to get your AB above your opponent's AC and sacrifice only that difference.

If you can't get your AB higher then you need to fight things with low AC, like low CR baddies or extra squishy baddies not made for melee. If you can't do either then you'll do more damage with something that doesn't hurt your AB, like weapon specialization or weapon focus. Even at mid levels where 5.3-7% of your damage is less than 2, the difference between the two is small and you're best off limiting the AB loss to 2-4 and the net gains are still worse than weapon specialization or weapon focus. So, ya, ubercharger or not, getting power attack to work depends on making sure you hit. The difference with uberchargers is that they make the sky the limit while AB boosts give you a limit less than the boosts. "Less than" b/c you need some of them to reach 95% hits, not as PA fuel.

Keld Denar

2011-03-31, 11:09 AM

At level 10, 50 is extremely low, 100 is low, 200 is good, 500 is overkill. At 15 50 isn't worth writing down, 100 is extremely low, 200 is low, 500 is good. The minimum numbers you should have are 150 at 10, and 350 at 15.

Then we agree to disagree. I think you're numbers are a little high, and will put strain on a DM to plan challenging encounters that aren't a coin flip for most or all of the parties involved. Again, my personal opinion and experience on this.

Jarian

2011-03-31, 11:12 AM

Then we agree to disagree. I think you're numbers are a little high, and will put strain on a DM to plan challenging encounters that aren't a coin flip for most or all of the parties involved. Again, my personal opinion and experience on this.

Seconded. The listed numbers are, essentially, one-shot kills for anything vaguely CR appropriate. The only thing they accomplish is the DM adding massive Con bonuses or you fighting things way above normal CR.

Some people enjoy playing the game that way. That's fine. But don't pretend not hitting those numbers every round isn't okay for regular characters.

ericgrau

2011-03-31, 12:50 PM

40-50 damage per round is typical at level 10 in core with good optimization but no buffs or other outside help. How much more you get depends on the level of non-core optimization. I did a couple tests a while back and at both level 5 and level 15 it takes 2.6 rounds or a little less to drop a baddy, assuming the first round is a single attack. In other words the core rules expect you to take 2-3 rounds to drop a foe assuming 4 PCs fighting 4 monsters. The average combat is 5 rounds though. A party of pure damage dealers will in fact take 2-3 rounds to finish a fight (while also taking heavy damage) but most parties and most fights are trickier than that, so 2-3 rounds assuming no tricky stuff makes sense. Ya once you get over double that damage and start one shotting things it changes the game dynamic quite a bit. I wouldn't go around telling others that this is normal and must always be expected. Maybe it's fine for some gaming groups, but not necessarily for all.

Keld Denar

2011-03-31, 12:54 PM

Plus, you generally aren't the only person dealing damage in your party. If one of you can drop a foe in 2.6 rounds average, then 2 of you can drop a foe in 1.3 rounds average, or possibly less depending on group dynamics with flanking and whatnot.

Malevolence

2011-03-31, 02:43 PM

Then we agree to disagree. I think you're numbers are a little high, and will put strain on a DM to plan challenging encounters that aren't a coin flip for most or all of the parties involved. Again, my personal opinion and experience on this.

Hardly. Such a character literally brings nothing to the table except damage. As in if the combat music is not playing they could be playing Halo on your Xbox and no one would notice. Additionally, chargers are beyond trivial to shut down entirely. Simply having more than a single enemy works wonders, for example. But on the rare instances that it does work, you need your HP damage to be taking off the last HP, which in turn means plowing through all the others or you are completely wasting your time. And for this reason, and the fact that your "default" damage output is considerably lower, you have to optimize considerably just to contribute at all.

Seconded. The listed numbers are, essentially, one-shot kills for anything vaguely CR appropriate. The only thing they accomplish is the DM adding massive Con bonuses or you fighting things way above normal CR.

Some people enjoy playing the game that way. That's fine. But don't pretend not hitting those numbers every round isn't okay for regular characters.

That's the idea. Anything level appropriate flattens you in two rounds max at all levels of play. Sometimes it only takes one.

If it takes you two rounds to kill the enemy you automatically die whenever you lose initiative, which could be very often, or only somewhat often but still results in a new character at least once per session.

If it takes you one round to kill the enemy you die when an enemy needs one round to kill you and you lose initiative. Which is considerably less common.

If it takes you more than two rounds, you just lose outright.

If the DM is competent, he won't even blink at this, as it is trivial to shut down a charger. I'll give you a hint: It doesn't involve making enemies have bigger numbers.

40-50 damage per round is typical at level 10 in core with good optimization but no buffs or other outside help. How much more you get depends on the level of non-core optimization. I did a couple tests a while back and at both level 5 and level 15 it takes 2.6 rounds or a little less to drop a baddy, assuming the first round is a single attack. In other words the core rules expect you to take 2-3 rounds to drop a foe assuming 4 PCs fighting 4 monsters. The average combat is 5 rounds though. A party of pure damage dealers will in fact take 2-3 rounds to finish a fight (while also taking heavy damage) but most parties and most fights are trickier than that, so 2-3 rounds assuming no tricky stuff makes sense. Ya once you get over double that damage and start one shotting things it changes the game dynamic quite a bit. I wouldn't go around telling others that this is normal and must always be expected. Maybe it's fine for some gaming groups, but not necessarily for all.

Core is incredibly imbalanced. But even with a weak core only sort, you should be able to do better than that. And you still have to.

Jarian

2011-03-31, 02:52 PM

That's the idea. Anything level appropriate flattens you in two rounds max at all levels of play. Sometimes it only takes one.

No, it doesn't. Not in a normal game. Not even ECL+4 encounters generally have the capability to completely destroy a character in one round of actions (I say generally, because certain creatures are built this way, but they are the exception to the norm). This assumes moderate but not excessive defenses, con bonuses, etc. I speak from, what, almost eight years of playing-slash-DMing 3.5 now?

Yeah, you aren't playing the same game as most of us, full stop.

Edit: This does not apply to extremely low levels, in which you are one or two crossbow bolts from death at any point.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-31, 02:59 PM

That's the idea. Anything level appropriate flattens you in two rounds max at all levels of play. Sometimes it only takes one.

I was going to respond to a bunch of different things I saw, but this seems slightly more noticeable to respond to first. May I ask exactly what is a normal encounter for you? A Fighter, a Rogue, a Cleric, and a Wizard, with what you would deem the average skill and ability set for them, lets say at level 10. What would they be fighting on average that instantly kills all of them in 1 round? I feel there's a Tomb of Horrors Joke waiting to be mentioned, but seriously, you have a very hard-core DM...

I think Malevolence may have been referring to undead turn attempts. But it's 2 turn attempts, not 3.
Oh, thank God. That's quite a scare taken away. A nifty additional house rule lets the group Cleric worry about whether or not we need to scare away Zombies or turn the Beat Stick into Sonic-the-Hedgehog after he's done with his fit of slashing.

There are two action costs with Travel Devotion: loss of your single swift action each round and loss of the option to make a 5' adjustment.
Huh. When we talked about it, it seemed more like it gave the Travel Devotee an extra choice for the swift action, not locking them into the swift action. And maybe I'm not looking at the big picture, but losing a 5 foot adjustment for 10 rounds to gain a 30 foot adjustment for 10 rounds seems like a good trade. I'll probably be proven wrong 2 rounds after this posting, but se la vi?

At level 10, 50 is extremely low, 100 is low, 200 is good, 500 is overkill. At 15 50 isn't worth writing down, 100 is extremely low, 200 is low, 500 is good. The minimum numbers you should have are 150 at 10, and 350 at 15.
I think I'll agree with some of the others and say that while having the option to do that much damage is good, I don't think I need -quite- that much power.

The game is already rocket tag. It is already full of enemies that will 1-2 round you quite easily. All you have done is ensure you can kill them faster, thereby allowing you to not drop dead in every single fight. A standard, unoptimized, basic normal fight at 10 leaves you having to plow through 140 HP. The same thing at 15 means you have to plow through around 300. Add in any amount of enemy optimization, harder than normal fights etc and you need more. And remember, only the last counts. 100 at 5 is slight overkill, but having the rockets to take enemies out before they rocket you down means you don't get flattened, not that you do. Yes, casters can still win fights. But if you want to bring beatsticks to the table, you need your deeps up or you're wasting everyone's time.
If this is how normal gameplay is like, what's the Tome of Horrors Like!?!

You don't have to be, but Clerics can do it a lot easier than anyone else, and they also have the turn attempts to recharge it. Without either of those things you're using a feat slot on something that can only be used once a day. It costs turn attempts to recharge it. Actually 2, not 3, but that still means you have to have some in order to recharge it.
All true, but thankfully not a worry for me. Definitely something to keep in mind in other campaigns, though.

Burns Swift actions, can't 5 foot step.
Am I really reading it that wrong? Although I don't see the loss of the 5 footstep too big a deal. And again, I'll probably be proven wrong rather fast.

I make fun of Monks to their face. Interestingly enough, no one has ever tried to play a Mook around me.
I see what you did there.

The game is already rocket tag. Making sure you have rockets doesn't escalate anything, it just means you don't get rocketed down in fight 1.
So long as you go about it right. If you blatantly run around rocketing anything that shows up, the DM will use Nukes on you. Random Rival Party attempting to kill you is not good. Very Not Good. ;.;

If you're going to get into terribly balanced homebrew, you might as well make a feat called I Win D&D. It does exactly what the name implies.
I'm just looking for options, is all. Charging isn't my thing, but Power Attack has a nice feel to it. Is that such a bad thing?

The basics of power attack at low level are to balance damage and hit rate. At high level your damage is already so high that you almost never want to sacrifice 5.3-7% of your damage through not hitting for a measly 2 points of damage. Thus without the ubercharger feat lines you need ways to get your AB above your opponent's AC and sacrifice only that difference.
What -good- feats can I use to achieve this purpose? I've been recommended against the later mentioned Weapon Focus/Specialization line, and found my combat ability all the better for it. But I'm still open to ideas. To be honest, the rest of your comment on your post made me feel a bit insulted, although I might just be overly sensitive...

Plus, you generally aren't the only person dealing damage in your party.
This is probably the most important thing to think about. I got one of my friends to look at a couple of different books for ideas on how to increase the number of spells he can use by having reserve feats incase he wants to do blasting, and then saving slots for utility. And I convinced another friend to be a Cloistered Cleric, since said friend wants to be support and wouldn't be losing anything. But overall, I'm probably the only person in our group that optimizes and plans my character out (mixing story with optimization, of course), and if I try to challenge the DM, even if I could win, it may mean leaving my party behind in terms of strength, and overall endangering our characters, our game time, possibly our fun, and even worse, our friendship.
Incase the DM decides to kick things up a notch (and random challenge fights to get the group out of our comfort zone -has- been an occurance), I want to be able to hold my weight, and the weight of people around me. With Power Attack alone, I've got a nice option to be able to tear into most everything. It's a modifiable variable that can let me make epic misses, do decent damage, or even outright end whatever I'm fighting, so long as I'm careful with its abuse.

I dunno why I don't feel like simply charging. I guess I wanna be remembered for powerful slashes and strikes, over being able to break everything in half by smashing into it. Although I wonder about being a Shield using Charger, if only to celebrate the new Captain America movie. And MvC3. HYPER CHARGING STAR! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huP-8sIGrow&feature=related)

Curmudgeon

2011-03-31, 03:19 PM

And maybe I'm not looking at the big picture, but losing a 5 foot adjustment for 10 rounds to gain a 30 foot adjustment for 10 rounds seems like a good trade.
It depends. How's your Tumble skill? Because a 5' "not an action" adjustment isn't going to provoke attacks of opportunity, but your 30' swift action adjustment certainly is.

The Cat Goddess

2011-03-31, 03:20 PM

Choose Catfolk as your Race and get the Catfolk Pounce feat. :smallbiggrin:

Malevolence

2011-03-31, 03:21 PM

{Scrubbed}

Jarian

2011-03-31, 03:38 PM

There is so much wrong in your reasoning that I feel compelled to turn off my computer when I read your posts. It's like the sheer wrongness of everything you've said here is physically compelling me to distance myself from the pain of reading it.

Winning D&D? Playing D&D wrong?

I... what... I just...

Who plays with someone like that?

Apparently it works for you. Congratulations. Please stop trying to ram it down the throats of people who don't play like that.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-31, 05:14 PM

It depends. How's your Tumble skill? Because a 5' "not an action" adjustment isn't going to provoke attacks of opportunity, but your 30' swift action adjustment certainly is.
My Tumble is good. As is my Dex, my Con, and my d12 Dice. I ain't too worried about most Attacks of Opportunity.

Choose Catfolk as your Race and get the Catfolk Pounce feat. :smallbiggrin:
That'd be an option, but I'm a full blooded human. Not looking to increase the number of attacks I have so much as I want to make them stronger (and more accurate, looking back at a previous couple of comments).

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
I only used those 4 specific classes because that's what is normally considered the Iconic RPG group. Look at -any- RPG Based Game. You'll have a Strong Person, a Fast Person, and a Magicky Person. Some times the Magic will be Dark and Light, or Damagy and Healy, giving 2 positions for people instead of 1. I don't really care if you use a Warblade or Frenzied Berzerker, or any other substitution, to be honest, although realistically, there's no reason for the party I suggested to be half dead weight. Maybe I just lack the experience you or others have, but this is getting a bit out of hand.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
I suppose I shall take the risk of losing my Warblade to that dang last attack that my Tumble skill failed to dodge... Although I do need to recheck what I'd be doing with my Swift Actions. Although again, as far as our group knowes (and maybe we're playing it wrong), it doesn't say we -have- to use the Swift Movement to move again. I was personally under the assumption that it simply gave me another option to use my Swift Action with for a few rounds.

Malevolence, I'd have responded to the rest of what you've stated, but really, I feel the point of this thread has been derailed a bit too much into Hyper Metagamy borderline Flaming. And I'd actually like to ask that we steer back onto the topic of me making this thread for advice. If you want to open up a thread yourself to continue talking of this level of optimization, then go right on ahead. But may I ask that on this specific one, we maintain a bit of civility and stay on the topic I asked for it (Boosting Power Attack without Multiclassing and going Full Charger)?

There is so much wrong in your reasoning that I feel compelled to turn off my computer when I read your posts. It's like the sheer wrongness of everything you've said here is physically compelling me to distance myself from the pain of reading it.
Winning D&D? Playing D&D wrong?
I... what... I just...
Who plays with someone like that?
Apparently it works for you. Congratulations. Please stop trying to ram it down the throats of people who don't play like that.
Yeah, I'm hoping I don't start earning more infraction points over what should be a simple question...

ericgrau

2011-03-31, 06:49 PM

Core is incredibly imbalanced. But even with a weak core only sort, you should be able to do better than that. And you still have to.
And yet they manage to keep it at 2.6 rounds to drop the foe regardless of level.:smallconfused:. I was referring to an optimized core build. I'd like to see you do better. I'd really like to see you do 100 damage per round in core.

To help you out the average CR 8 monster has about 97 HP and 20 AC. 4 CR 8 = EL 12 encounter = "difficult" fight for 4 level 10 PCs.

I got 17/12 AB, 21.4 avg damage per hit (33 damage per full attack) while still managing 26 AC and 95 avg HP. 16/14/13/12/10/8 base stats IIRC. I suppose I could have done done 18/13 AB, 26 avg. damage per hit (43 damage per full attack) with 22 AC and 85 avg HP too. Roughly 2/3 that on single attacks. Either would have been better (around 40 and 50 DPR, respectively) with boots of speed but I figure 12k out of 49k is pushing it unless you actually start at level 10 and pick your gear. Maybe not.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-31, 09:44 PM

Is their any chance we can get off of the whole "Core is Imbalanced" conversation? People are already getting kinda heated about it, and I just needed some advice, not a borderline flamethread. Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but I just wanna avoid the chance of it going down that road and getting people into trouble.

I suppose I'm willing to get into a bit of charging, especially since I've got a couple of maneuvers that lets me charge and do some damage. I just don't intend to base my entire character around it, and I'm not multiclassing into a Barbarian of any kind for it. Even if it's for one level. Got 3 good reasons why:

1) Dual Stance Capstone Ability sounds -awesome-.
2) I don't want to miss out on maneuvers. Especially the upper level maneuvers. Elder Mountain Tombstone Hammer, TIME FREAKING STANDS STILL, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Diamond Nightmare Blade... yeah, just being able to call out any of those awesome moves mid fight is enough to work forward to.
And 3) ... I'm not allowed to Multiclass. I am speficically banned from doing so after getting into a fight with someone just to be allowed to play a Warblade.
Scared of what would happen if I did optimize beyond what the class alone provides. Same reason Flaws are banned.

The above 3 reasons don't need much commenting behind them, and I hope I haven't provided the kendling for continued fires. Just needed some advice, is all. So in the spirit of attempting to get some decent conversation and to reallign the focus, I've got a few questions:

A) A Basic Charge. That 1 Single Attack I use at the end of the Charge; am I allowed to use a Maneuver that uses a Standard Action with that attack?

B) Bounding Assault. If I -were- to get Leap Attack and apply it to said Maneuver, would that work?

C) Quicksilver Motion. It grants a Free Move Action. It's basically the Martial version of Travel Devotion, isn't it?

D) It said in the SRD that a DC 35 Tumble lets me do a move action at my regular speed and ignore attacks of opportunity. Can this be done with Travel Devotion/ Quicksilver Motion?

E) Quicksilver Motion. It says you could move, then do a full attack. Could one use Time Stands Still during that full attack, or any other maneuver that would fit the full attack? Or maybe a Double Move and then Diamond Nightmare Blade, or another standard maneuver. Or even move, then a Leap Attack, then an attack (or another standard maneuver if allowed)?

F) Leap Attack. It tripples my Power Attack Bonus. If another feat doubled my Power Attack Bonus, how does Leap Attack effect it?

Judging from my previous track record with threads, it will be at this point that the thread disappears into obscurity...

Keld Denar

2011-03-31, 09:55 PM

Oh come on, I'm ALWAYS here to help you! :P

A) You can't use a strike at the end of a charge. Charging is a full round action that gives you an attack action at the end. You don't have any action left to perform a standard action, if that makes sense.

B) Yes. The attack from Bounding Assault is treated as a charge. Assuming you make the jump check and land next to your foe, you would get all of the boons of Leap Attack

C) Pretty much. Remember, though, that you have to recover it before you can use it again, unlike Travel Devotion, which you can use for a full minute after activating.

D) Yes, although I think you got it a bit high. Its +10 to tumble at full speed. Thus, 25 will get you full speed past one foe. 35 will get you full speed THROUGH one foe.

E) Pretty much, yes. You basically have 2 move actions and a standard action, or a move action and a full round action. You can move then TSS. You can move twice then DNB. You can move, then charge with a Leap Attack. The only thing you can't do with Quicksilver Motion is take a move equivalent action.

F) You use D&D math. A double + a triple = quadruple. Wielding a 2 handed weapon gives you x2 PA. Leap Attack with a 2handed weapon gives you 3x PA. Combining them gives you 4x PA. If you had another doubling in there, it would give you 5x.

herrhauptmann

2011-03-31, 10:16 PM

Hardly. Such a character literally brings nothing to the table except damage. As in if the combat music is not playing they could be playing Halo on your Xbox and no one would notice.

A nitpick, you can respond if you want, but I don't plan on turning this into a huge argument to run alongside your other one...

By your reasoning, the party beatstick can only contribute by dealing damage. And by being the beatstick, he of course can't have any other skills/abilities that help out of combat.
What about Roleplaying a Character in the roleplaying game? The rules of the game do allow you to act in character, thus invalidating the need a lot of skill checks.
"I go to the ball, and I try and ask the princess on a date because I've got a high charisma she might do it even if I have no ranks in it." Diplomacy: 1d20+4...
Versus,
Pretending that you are actually at a party, being witty and charming. And asking the princess to dance, and so on. At the end, the DM has the Princess ask to see you again.
It's a weak example, but they got the same results, you got a date, but without any actual dice rolling.

There might not be "A right or wrong way to play D&D." But I'm willing to be that yours is closer to wrong than others. Just by reading this thread.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-31, 10:24 PM

Oh come on, I'm ALWAYS here to help you! :P

You have been quite helpful for a while, actually. I thank you for your continued input.

A) You can't use a strike at the end of a charge. Charging is a full round action that gives you an attack action at the end. You don't have any action left to perform a standard action, if that makes sense.

It does, even if it makes me sad. But I wonder, can I use this charge to refresh my maneuvers? I have to use a Swift Action and then either a melee attack or a standard attack.... I feel the answer's a no, but I have to ask.

B) Yes. The attack from Bounding Assault is treated as a charge. Assuming you make the jump check and land next to your foe, you would get all of the boons of Leap Attack.

Jump Strike of awesome.... I wonder what other combos I can do.

C) Pretty much. Remember, though, that you have to recover it before you can use it again, unlike Travel Devotion, which you can use for a full minute after activating.

Random thought, just to satisfy my curiosity. Can I combine Quick Silver Motion with Travel Devotion? I'm imagining myself carrying the group Cleric, and then borderline teleporting under the stacked effects of speed, pausing only to refresh maneuvers and have my cleric re-energise me.

D) Yes, although I think you got it a bit high. Its +10 to tumble at full speed. Thus, 25 will get you full speed past one foe. 35 will get you full speed THROUGH one foe.

Thought it was 25 to get past an Attack of Opportunity, and then +10 to any dc while moving at full speed, going regular speed without. Either way, I can haz Dodge Roll!

E) Pretty much, yes. You basically have 2 move actions and a standard action, or a move action and a full round action. You can move then TSS. You can move twice then DNB. You can move, then charge with a Leap Attack. The only thing you can't do with Quicksilver Motion is take a move equivalent action.

Quicksilver Motion + Time Stands Still = Omnifreakingslash. Although I did a little reading, and heard that Haste doesn't stack. Is that also true? Then again, maybe that's for the best...

F) You use D&D math. A double + a triple = quadruple. Wielding a 2 handed weapon gives you x2 PA. Leap Attack with a 2handed weapon gives you 3x PA. Combining them gives you 4x PA. If you had another doubling in there, it would give you 5x.

Wait... -what-. -What!?!- No freaking wonder frenzied berserkers kick butt! They start off raping people!

I don't quite see how you can combine using a 2 handed Weapon with using a 2 Handed Leap Attack. Actually, where does it say you can get a 2x Power Attack Bonus with just a 2 handed weapon? I forget.

*edit* Also, with basic non Leap Attacks, if a feat doubled my Power Attack Damage, and I used a 2 Handed Weapon (assuming it did double my Power Attack Damage just by being a 2 handed Weapon), said new attacks would be doing 3x the Power Attack Bonus? Omnislash just suddenly got more awesome.

Just by reading this thread.

Oh God, my thread has become one of -those- threads.... :frown:

It would be -really- nice for the Hyper Metagame-y comments to -die-, like -now-. Please. Before a Mod has reason to shut this down.

Anyone that -does- wish to continue such commentary, can you use another medium to do it? A different thread if you want to keep it on the forums that badly, or through dirrect comments to eachother, if need be? I hope they see this request before they continue posting...

Keld Denar

2011-03-31, 10:41 PM

It does, even if it makes me sad. But I wonder, can I use this charge to refresh my maneuvers? I have to use a Swift Action and then either a melee attack or a standard attack.... I feel the answer's a no, but I have to ask.
Yes. You can do it after a melee attack. So, charge a fool, then burn your swift action to recover your manevuers.

Random thought, just to satisfy my curiosity. Can I combine Quick Silver Motion with Travel Devotion? I'm imagining myself carrying the group Cleric, and then borderline teleporting under the stacked effects of speed, pausing only to refresh maneuvers and have my cleric re-energise me.
Considering that you only have one swift action per round, and moving with either QSM or TD requires your swift action, then no. Not unless you can come up with extra swift actions per round, and the only way I can think of is 7 levels of Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Thought it was 25 to get past an Attack of Opportunity, and then +10 to any dc while moving at full speed, going regular speed without. Either way, I can haz Dodge Roll!
DC 15 = (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm) "Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC."

Quicksilver Motion + Time Stands Still = Omnifreakingslash. Although I did a little reading, and heard that Haste doesn't stack. Is that also true? Then again, maybe that's for the best...
Haste doesn't stack? With what? Haste attacks don't stack with other Haste attacks, but TSS is not a Haste attack. Valiant Fury is a Haste attack. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is a Haste attack. Snake's Swiftness is a Haste attack. TSS is NOT a Haste attack(s).

I don't quite see how you can combine using a 2 handed Weapon with using a 2 Handed Leap Attack. Actually, where does it say you can get a 2x Power Attack Bonus with just a 2 handed weapon? I forget.
How about this? "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls."

AnonymousD&Der

2011-03-31, 11:29 PM

Yes. You can do it after a melee attack. So, charge a fool, then burn your swift action to recover your manevuers.

I see where the issue in using Travel Devotion comes in. Still useful enough to consider, but no longer as guaranteed an option.

Considering that you only have one swift action per round, and moving with either QSM or TD requires your swift action, then no. Not unless you can come up with extra swift actions per round, and the only way I can think of is 7 levels of Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Damn. Ah well. Charge to regain my maneuver, then Quicksilver Motion, after having used Travel Devotion to Run for a few Rounds. Either way, I'm still traveling for a pretty darn good amount of time.

DC 15 = (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm) "Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC."

Ah. So, DC 25 to dodge people, and DC 35 to FREAKING SHORT RANGED TELEPORT through people. Melee Combat just got cooler. Although if I'm gonna start teleporting through people, I need to get colorful spiky hair.

Haste doesn't stack? With what? Haste attacks don't stack with other Haste attacks, but TSS is not a Haste attack. Valiant Fury is a Haste attack. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is a Haste attack. Snake's Swiftness is a Haste attack. TSS is NOT a Haste attack(s).

Weird. I -may- have misread page 43, paragraph 2 of the Tome of Battle...

How about this? "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls."

Wow. I suddenly can't read today. Opening my eyes even let me find the Multiplication Rule.

So, 2 Handed Fighting gives me the 2x Power Attack. But I can combine Power Attack and Leap Attack and get a x4 Multiplier? I always thought Leap Attack didn't stack with Power Attack, and simply over-write it. Not even counting the feat I found that would bump it up to 3x and 5x during a Charge, so long as I'm hitting a Large or bigger enemy.

Keld Denar

2011-04-01, 12:04 AM

Weird. I -may- have misread page 43, paragraph 2 of the Tome of Battle...

Huh, I never noticed that. Regardless, TSS seems to counter this. TSS explicitly gives you a full attack action (2 of them, actually). Haste says: "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding."

So, the general rule takes away the ability to make extra attacks so you can't combine it with certain full round action maneuvers that DON'T give you full attack actions, like Charging Minotaur, but the specific rules for TSS give it back. At least, that's how I'd interpret it.

Lyndworm

2011-04-01, 03:54 AM

So, 2 Handed Fighting gives me the 2x Power Attack. But I can combine Power Attack and Leap Attack and get a x4 Multiplier? I always thought Leap Attack didn't stack with Power Attack, and simply over-write it. Not even counting the feat I found that would bump it up to 3x and 5x during a Charge, so long as I'm hitting a Large or bigger enemy.
I'm unfamiliar with exactly how you're getting all of these multipliers, so I won't comment on them. However, Leap Attack does not add a multiplier. I know that it says that it does, but it doesn't. The reason for this is that the version of Leap Attack in Complete Adventurer was misprinted. The Errata makes the feat much better:

The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

That means that your x4 doesn't turn into a x5, it turns into a x8. Yeah, charging is where melee finally gets nice things.

Canarr

2011-04-01, 06:30 AM

@Lyndworm: thanks, that clears this feat up nicely. That was always a bit confusing.

On a sidenote: is there a link somewhere on these forums to the errate for Complete Adventurer (and other Complete books)?

Malbordeus

2011-04-01, 07:32 AM

random suggestion - thought about incarnum feats? theres a couple that relate to charging and power attack, not to mention the soulmelds? :smallconfused: also they allow some flexibility.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-01, 08:14 AM

Huh, I never noticed that. Regardless, TSS seems to counter this. TSS explicitly gives you a full attack action (2 of them, actually). Haste says: "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding."

So, the general rule takes away the ability to make extra attacks so you can't combine it with certain full round action maneuvers that DON'T give you full attack actions, like Charging Minotaur, but the specific rules for TSS give it back. At least, that's how I'd interpret it.

I see what you mean. And it sounds like it would work. Time Stands Still isn't specifically a special attack that takes a full action to perform. It is a move that lets you strike with 2 full actions. And normal full actions should be capable of being hasted, since they're.... you know, normal moves. Gotta get the Cleric to learn Haste some how. Maybe I'll ask on the Q&A thread how to get my Cleric to be able to Haste me. And I'll need to check Person-Man's thread to add some attacks. Omnifreakingslash is -awesome-.

I'm unfamiliar with exactly how you're getting all of these multipliers, so I won't comment on them. However, Leap Attack does not add a multiplier. I know that it says that it does, but it doesn't. The reason for this is that the version of Leap Attack in Complete Adventurer was misprinted. The Errata makes the feat much better:

That means that your x4 doesn't turn into a x5, it turns into a x8. Yeah, charging is where melee finally gets nice things.

I suppose I was a bit confusing with the posting.... Power Attack with a 2 handed Weapon gives an x2 multiplier. I found a feat that gives another x2 multiplier, so long as I take on a monster Large sized or greater. But then Leap Attack... what the heck is going on with it? I thought it'd be just another Multiplier.... or am I dealing with a x6 damage Aerial Slash? :smalleek:

random suggestion - thought about incarnum feats? theres a couple that relate to charging and power attack, not to mention the soulmelds? :smallconfused: also they allow some flexibility.

Not sure about the sound of incarnum feats.... They and soulmelds sound a bit on the dark side of the allignment pool.... I intend to be chaotic good. But otherwise, I'm certainly willing to give a look.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 08:22 AM

I only used those 4 specific classes because that's what is normally considered the Iconic RPG group. Look at -any- RPG Based Game. You'll have a Strong Person, a Fast Person, and a Magicky Person. Some times the Magic will be Dark and Light, or Damagy and Healy, giving 2 positions for people instead of 1. I don't really care if you use a Warblade or Frenzied Berzerker, or any other substitution, to be honest, although realistically, there's no reason for the party I suggested to be half dead weight. Maybe I just lack the experience you or others have, but this is getting a bit out of hand.

Two of which have no actual role.

I suppose I shall take the risk of losing my Warblade to that dang last attack that my Tumble skill failed to dodge... Although I do need to recheck what I'd be doing with my Swift Actions. Although again, as far as our group knowes (and maybe we're playing it wrong), it doesn't say we -have- to use the Swift Movement to move again. I was personally under the assumption that it simply gave me another option to use my Swift Action with for a few rounds.

As a Warblade?

Moment of Perfect Mind, so you don't get destroyed by Will save or loses. At least not the first time.
Wall of Blades = Deflecting attacks. Works on rays. Actually works better on rays, as it's an opposed attack roll.
Anklet of Translocation = Also ability to move and full attack, not auto lose to grapple, many uses really.
Sudden Leap = Also overlaps with the move and attack thing.

There's many others. Losing out on boosts and counters and many items is a big deal.

And if you turn it on, and don't use it, you're wasting it. Which is naturally rather pointless.

Malevolence, I'd have responded to the rest of what you've stated, but really, I feel the point of this thread has been derailed a bit too much into Hyper Metagamy borderline Flaming. And I'd actually like to ask that we steer back onto the topic of me making this thread for advice. If you want to open up a thread yourself to continue talking of this level of optimization, then go right on ahead. But may I ask that on this specific one, we maintain a bit of civility and stay on the topic I asked for it (Boosting Power Attack without Multiclassing and going Full Charger)?

Discussing what amounts of damage are required to be relevant as a beatstick is fully on topic for a thread discussing how to make a beatstick viable.

And yet they manage to keep it at 2.6 rounds to drop the foe regardless of level.:smallconfused:. I was referring to an optimized core build. I'd like to see you do better. I'd really like to see you do 100 damage per round in core.

So, a round after you are dead? There is no such thing as a relevant, non CoDzilla beatstick in core. And CoDzilla has better things to do. Like smash Tokyo.

To help you out the average CR 8 monster has about 97 HP and 20 AC. 4 CR 8 = EL 12 encounter = "difficult" fight for 4 level 10 PCs.

I got 17/12 AB, 21.4 avg damage per hit (33 damage per full attack) while still managing 26 AC and 95 avg HP. 16/14/13/12/10/8 base stats IIRC. I suppose I could have done done 18/13 AB, 26 avg. damage per hit (43 damage per full attack) with 22 AC and 85 avg HP too. Roughly 2/3 that on single attacks. Either would have been better (around 40 and 50 DPR, respectively) with boots of speed but I figure 12k out of 49k is pushing it unless you actually start at level 10 and pick your gear. Maybe not.

Yes, you have 400 HP to grind through, and it takes you... much more than 1 round to do so. Meanwhile they kill you easily in one round with focus fire.

A nitpick, you can respond if you want, but I don't plan on turning this into a huge argument to run alongside your other one...

By your reasoning, the party beatstick can only contribute by dealing damage. And by being the beatstick, he of course can't have any other skills/abilities that help out of combat.
What about Roleplaying a Character in the roleplaying game? The rules of the game do allow you to act in character, thus invalidating the need a lot of skill checks.

Hahaha, no. You can shoot the breeze in the tavern all you like. Just like a level 1 Commoner. When you attempt to do anything important, the DM says roll Diplomacy, and you fail it, and that's that.

Which means your contribution to the game, outside of combat is nil (and is not very high even in combat).

balistafreak

2011-04-01, 09:12 AM

Hahaha, no. You can shoot the breeze in the tavern all you like. Just like a level 1 Commoner. When you attempt to do anything important, the DM says roll Diplomacy, and you fail it, and that's that.

I'm not normally a fan of "good roleplay means never putting a point into a social skill" but I must say that this is hardly the guaranteed outcome for tables everywhere.

I find myself, like many others, wondering just what kind of table you play at. :smallconfused:

If you are rocketing anything (hostile) that shows up, that is called playing D&D and winning.

Your ability to make this statement with a straight face fills me with shame. :smallannoyed:

I won't give the full dissertation about how D&D is not supposed to be a game with a binary win/lose but is rather an experience, a journey, because I'm sure the majority of us here believe that already. Maybe that's what's different between us and you.

Keld Denar

2011-04-01, 09:26 AM

that is called playing D&D and winning.

http://onstartups.com/Portals/150/images/charlie-sheen-winning-resized-600.jpg
Consequently, theres a PrC in ToB that gives you tiger blood. Several, I think. Might be interesting if you weren't against multiclassing.

Soulmelds aren't evil. They aren't aligned, well, most of them arn't. About the best thing you can do with soulmelds is to shape Planar Ward (1 feat), which gives you a persistant Protection from Evil, which is useful, and shape and bind Displacer Mantle (2 feats) which gives you a free Cloak of Minor Displacement. There are a few others that are useful, but they either involve chakra slots you can't open, or aren't really worthwhile if you don't have essentia to invest in them, which'll cost you even more feats.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 09:57 AM

I'm not normally a fan of "good roleplay means never putting a point into a social skill" but I must say that this is hardly the guaranteed outcome for tables everywhere.

I find myself, like many others, wondering just what kind of table you play at. :smallconfused:

The kind of table where you can shoot the breeze all you like, but when you want to do something that matters you succeed or fail based on your character's abilities to do so. Otherwise you end up in situations where people like me could completely dominate social encounters, even on a 6 Cha Dwarf simply because I, the player can, and meanwhile the Bard face who is shy in real life hardly accomplishes anything. That way lies madness. And being kicked into pits. In other words, I play D&D. What game do you play?

Your ability to make this statement with a straight face fills me with shame. :smallannoyed:

I won't give the full dissertation about how D&D is not supposed to be a game with a binary win/lose but is rather an experience, a journey, because I'm sure the majority of us here believe that already. Maybe that's what's different between us and you.

If you aren't rocketing the hostiles, they are rocketing you. At which point you are playing a game about creating characters for D&D, and not D&D itself. Whatever your goals are for your character, they necessitate not dying. Which means not getting rocketed down is, at worst a necessary means to an end. If said goals actually involve fighting, then not being rofflestomped in a fight is all the more important.

balistafreak

2011-04-01, 02:29 PM

The kind of table where you can shoot the breeze all you like, but when you want to do something that matters you succeed or fail based on your character's abilities to do so. Otherwise you end up in situations where people like me could completely dominate social encounters, even on a 6 Cha Dwarf simply because I, the player can, and meanwhile the Bard face who is shy in real life hardly accomplishes anything. That way lies madness. And being kicked into pits. In other words, I play D&D. What game do you play?

I would expect the DM to give you a stern look and say, "Your Charisma 6 Dwarf without social skills is being socially dominating. Stop it." Just as I'd expect the DM to do so if my Intelligence 6 Orc derived an engineering design, because I can in real life.

I would expect the DM to have a Charisma 6 Dwarf without social skills be able to raise intelligent points and alert his opposition of his opinions, which may or may not be considered, or taken by the Charisma 18 Half-Elven Bard and diplomanced. Without sufficient Charisma, he wouldn't be able to convince them outright. That would be a Diplomacy check, roll and pass/fail.

But even without Diplomacy, he could raise an idea. Kind of like a book, or a writing - a book can't really get in your face and be convincing on its own accord, but the information's existence can still affect matters.

If you aren't rocketing the hostiles, they are rocketing you. At which point you are playing a game about creating characters for D&D, and not D&D itself. Whatever your goals are for your character, they necessitate not dying. Which means not getting rocketed down is, at worst a necessary means to an end. If said goals actually involve fighting, then not being rofflestomped in a fight is all the more important.

True - very true, I agree. But I just because I'm winning encounters and distinctly not dying, I hate to say that I'm "winning D&D". There's a difference there.

The Cat Goddess

2011-04-01, 02:45 PM

I'm unfamiliar with exactly how you're getting all of these multipliers, so I won't comment on them. However, Leap Attack does not add a multiplier. I know that it says that it does, but it doesn't. The reason for this is that the version of Leap Attack in Complete Adventurer was misprinted. The Errata makes the feat much better:

The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

That means that your x4 doesn't turn into a x5, it turns into a x8. Yeah, charging is where melee finally gets nice things.

I have to disagree. The relevant part there is "the normal bonus damage". Thus, if you're swinging a great axe and power attacking for 5 BAB, you would do +10 Damage for the Power Attack and +10 Damage for the Leap Attack. If you did something else that modified your Power Attack, "the normal bonus damage" would still only be +10.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 02:53 PM

I would expect the DM to give you a stern look and say, "Your Charisma 6 Dwarf without social skills is being socially dominating. Stop it." Just as I'd expect the DM to do so if my Intelligence 6 Orc derived an engineering design, because I can in real life.

But... it's totally ok to do things even if you don't have the actual abilities to do so in game! You said so yourself! This is merely the logical conclusion of that.

True - very true, I agree. But I just because I'm winning encounters and distinctly not dying, I hate to say that I'm "winning D&D". There's a difference there.

You can describe it in a roundabout way, or you can get to the point. The result is the same. Combat effectiveness is required to get anywhere, even if it is not itself the goal.

Lyndworm

2011-04-01, 07:24 PM

On a sidenote: is there a link somewhere on these forums to the errate for Complete Adventurer (and other Complete books)?
Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) you go.

I have to disagree. The relevant part there is "the normal bonus damage". Thus, if you're swinging a great axe and power attacking for 5 BAB, you would do +10 Damage for the Power Attack and +10 Damage for the Leap Attack. If you did something else that modified your Power Attack, "the normal bonus damage" would still only be +10.
You certainly have a point, but I think that it hinges around the definition of "normal bonus damage." I, for one, don't feel totally comfortable assuming anything about how WotC meant that phrase to be taken.

As I said earlier, I'm not very familiar with all of the different multipliers Canarr is using. If I could get a clear list, I could likely be a bit more helpful. Maybe not, though. :smallsigh:

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-01, 07:53 PM

As a Warblade?
Moment of Perfect Mind, so you don't get destroyed by Will save or loses. At least not the first time.
Wall of Blades = Deflecting attacks. Works on rays. Actually works better on rays, as it's an opposed attack roll.
Anklet of Translocation = Also ability to move and full attack, not auto lose to grapple, many uses really.
Sudden Leap = Also overlaps with the move and attack thing.
There's many others. Losing out on boosts and counters and many items is a big deal.
And if you turn it on, and don't use it, you're wasting it. Which is naturally rather pointless.
I see what you mean... you're dead right, too. I'll have to recheck the feats I'm using at this point, considering what seemed like a good move is a liability to a set of abilities that forms

Consequently, theres a PrC in ToB that gives you tiger blood. Several, I think. Might be interesting if you weren't against multiclassing.
I played a Druid... and kinda ..... well, Wild Shape + Spell Casting is very good, and having a bunch of companions, from a Wolf to an Eagle up, makes a bad Con and Strength relatively meaningless.

So I'm not allowed to play a super hero character anymore... at least not until I can do it without taking over... I suppose being the Ultimate Soldier should warrent less angry looks... ^_^;

Soulmelds aren't evil. They aren't aligned, well, most of them arn't. About the best thing you can do with soulmelds is to shape Planar Ward (1 feat), which gives you a persistant Protection from Evil, which is useful, and shape and bind Displacer Mantle (2 feats) which gives you a free Cloak of Minor Displacement. There are a few others that are useful, but they either involve chakra slots you can't open, or aren't really worthwhile if you don't have essentia to invest in them, which'll cost you even more feats.
Didn't you tell me about a feat combo that would go with the Cloak of Minor Displacement? I think it involved a Ring, actually. A while ago..... anywho, what books are SoulMelds and Incarnums in again?

I have to disagree. The relevant part there is "the normal bonus damage". Thus, if you're swinging a great axe and power attacking for 5 BAB, you would do +10 Damage for the Power Attack and +10 Damage for the Leap Attack. If you did something else that modified your Power Attack, "the normal bonus damage" would still only be +10.
..... I HAVE CONFUSIONS!

Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) you go.
This is something that should be saved by all players.

You certainly have a point, but I think that it hinges around the definition of "normal bonus damage." I, for one, don't feel totally comfortable assuming anything about how WotC meant that phrase to be taken.
Maybe we can find an official rulling over it somewhere, beyond just the Errata?

As I said earlier, I'm not very familiar with all of the different multipliers Canarr is using. If I could get a clear list, I could likely be a bit more helpful. Maybe not, though. :smallsigh:
Am I Canarr? If so, x2 for Power Attack with 2 Hands, and another x2 for a Feat, so long as I'm striking a Large or bigger enemy. I still don't get how Leap Attack would key into it, though, so I'm not including it. But the basic rules of multiplication in D&D means that I'm sitting on an x3 Multiplier vs Large+ Enemies and a x2 vs Medium or Smaller. Leap Attack from there.... well, I dunno. *shrug*

Lyndworm

2011-04-01, 08:02 PM

Am I Canarr?
...No, but I thought that you were. I used the wrong name. Totally my mistake. :smallredface:

If so, x2 for Power Attack with 2 Hands, and another x2 for a Feat, so long as I'm striking a Large or bigger enemy. I still don't get how Leap Attack would key into it, though, so I'm not including it. But the basic rules of multiplication in D&D means that I'm sitting on an x3 Multiplier vs Large+ Enemies and a x2 vs Medium or Smaller. Leap Attack from there.... well, I dunno. *shrug*
Well, it's either;
Power Attack x2 (Two-Handed), +100% (Leap Attack), x2 (Vs. big things feat) = (1 point goes in, 8 points come out)
OR
Power Attack x2 (Two-Handed), +x2 (Vs. big things feat), +100% (Leap Attack) = (1 point goes in, 6 points come out)

Unless I'm totally wrong, which apparently happens pretty often.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-01, 08:10 PM

...No, but I thought that you were. I used the wrong name. Totally my mistake. :smallredface:

It ain't no big thing. :smallsmile:

Well, it's either;
Power Attack x2 (Two-Handed), +100% (Leap Attack), x2 (Vs. big things feat) = (1 point goes in, 8 points come out)
OR
Power Attack x2 (Two-Handed), +x2 (Vs. big things feat), +100% (Leap Attack) = (1 point goes in, 6 points come out)

Unless I'm totally wrong, which apparently happens pretty often.

You're probably right more times than I'm wrong, and that's saying something.

I'd assume it to be most likely the latter, assuming that's how the 100% Leap Attack Bonus works. Seems like it would be easiest to stack dirrect x2 or x3 multipliers, and then factor in % boosts.

averagejoe

2011-04-01, 08:52 PM

The Mod They Call Me: Let's get this thread back on topic. It's a discussion on how to increase power attack, not of optimization philosophy.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-02, 12:17 AM

I tried to read Magic of Incarnum (which seems to be where the Soulmelds and, obviously, Incarnum comes from), but I honestly can't understand a bloody word of what I'm reading.

How does Diamond Nightmare Blade go with multiplied Power Attack damage? Thank God I can't Leap Attack -and- Diamond Nightmare Blade, or else the multiplier rules would be even -more- ridiculous.

I swear I was trying to figure out a combination with Emerald Razor beyond just move and strike...

Strike of Perfect Clarity is just (Figure out Damage + All Modifiers) + 100, right? It doesn't combine with Power Attack or anything? It'd be awesome if it could...

Remind me again, about being rendered flat-footed. Dexterity Mod to Armor Check gets removed, and no Attacks of Opportunity. I think. But I do -not- remember how long they stay flat-footed.

COMPLETELY Random thought: Can I Power Attack on an Attack of Opportunity? Heck, I thought I read that you could do anything from attack to trip during an Attack of Opportunity. Any Standard Attack Action. Could I use a Maneuver?

Second Random Thought (got some extra feat slots to use up now): Can I use both Robilar's Gambit -and- Karmic Strike?

Third Random Thought: Would a Feat that doubled your Strength Bonus to Damage during a Full Attack with a 2 handed weapon be worth considering for damage? Or is it really too small to matter compared to Power Attack?

herrhauptmann

2011-04-02, 12:48 AM

COMPLETELY Random thought: Can I Power Attack on an Attack of Opportunity? Heck, I thought I read that you could do anything from attack to trip during an Attack of Opportunity. Any Standard Attack Action. Could I use a Maneuver?

Second Random Thought (got some extra feat slots to use up now): Can I use both Robilar's Gambit -and- Karmic Strike?

Third Random Thought: Would a Feat that doubled your Strength Bonus to Damage during a Full Attack with a 2 handed weapon be worth considering for damage? Or is it really too small to matter compared to Power Attack?

Sorry, not going to touch Incarnum and soulmelds with a 39.5 ft pole.

1)Power attack of opportunity: If you were power attacking on your last turn, you should have to use the same power attack on this AOO. But deciding to power attack on an AOO when you weren't already using PA... I'd say that you can't. Certainly I've never heard taht issue come up. Always just trip/disarm/sunder on an AOO.
2)Not sure, would have to reread the feats.

3)I'd say that feat would be powerful in a low level game where a character doesn't have much BAB to allow the damage strength boosts. Especially if his overall attack bonus is fairly low and he's not hitting reliably to begin with. And in low level games, well warriors really haven't started to fall behind yet. Character with +3 strength mod, two handed that's a +4. With your feat, that's a +6. Quite a difference to a second level fighter still fighting goblins and kobolds)

In high level games, outside of certain builds (warhulking hurler), that feat would not be overpowered. Character with a +8 strength. On a two handed weapon he'd have +12 damage. You're boosting him up to 16, that's not a lot.

edit: No ninja

Lyndworm

2011-04-02, 02:01 AM

I tried to read Magic of Incarnum (which seems to be where the Soulmelds and, obviously, Incarnum comes from), but I honestly can't understand a bloody word of what I'm reading.
I know virtually nothing about Incarnum, though I have skimmed the book before. I know people that swear by it, though.

How does Diamond Nightmare Blade go with multiplied Power Attack damage? Thank God I can't Leap Attack -and- Diamond Nightmare Blade, or else the multiplier rules would be even -more- ridiculous.

I swear I was trying to figure out a combination with Emerald Razor beyond just move and strike...

Strike of Perfect Clarity is just (Figure out Damage + All Modifiers) + 100, right? It doesn't combine with Power Attack or anything? It'd be awesome if it could...
See above, but replace Incarnum with Tome of Battle.

Remind me again, about being rendered flat-footed. Dexterity Mod to Armor Check gets removed, and no Attacks of Opportunity. I think. But I do -not- remember how long they stay flat-footed.
It depends on how they were rendered flat-footed. If it has something to do with ToB, I'm not the guy to ask.

COMPLETELY Random thought: Can I Power Attack on an Attack of Opportunity? Heck, I thought I read that you could do anything from attack to trip during an Attack of Opportunity. Any Standard Attack Action. Could I use a Maneuver?
I believe that Herrhauptmann is correct. If you PAed last round, you have to PA for the same amount on AoOs. However, the rules are super-duper fuzzy about whether or not you can choose to PA during an AoO. Probably not, though.

Second Random Thought (got some extra feat slots to use up now): Can I use both Robilar's Gambit -and- Karmic Strike?
Yes, yes you can. Keep in mind that they stack for the other guy, too: your AC is effectively 8 points lower.

Third Random Thought: Would a Feat that doubled your Strength Bonus to Damage during a Full Attack with a 2 handed weapon be worth considering for damage? Or is it really too small to matter compared to Power Attack?
Like Herrhauptmann said, it depends on the level. If you're playing over level 10, it's definitely not worth the feat.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-03, 06:35 AM

Sorry, not going to touch Incarnum and soulmelds with a 39.5 ft pole.
So I'm not the only person that took a look at it and couldn't make heads or tails of it? Or do you have a personal reason for dislike for it? Meh, eithr way, I suppose it's a low priority option, considering I only recently heard of it myself, and shouldn't be trying to apply too many entirely new concepts to the campaign...

1)Power attack of opportunity: If you were power attacking on your last turn, you should have to use the same power attack on this AOO. But deciding to power attack on an AOO when you weren't already using PA... I'd say that you can't. Certainly I've never heard taht issue come up. Always just trip/disarm/sunder on an AOO.
So I can't -change- my value, but since Attacks of Opportunity still basic melee attacks, made with your attack Bonus, and Power Attack's Bonuses and Penalties last until my next turn, if I was already in Power Attack Mode, my Attacks of Opportunity should still be effected.... Gotta make sure I can do this, though. Bunch of stuff I need to make absolute sure of, actually.
And where does it say we can do trips/disarms/sunders on attacks of opportunity? I forget where I read it, although I know I saw it.

2)Not sure, would have to reread the feats.
Using Robilar's Gambit gives me a reduced Armor Check, and I think it gave the enemies an increased attack bonus against me. But every time they swing at me, I get an Attack of Opportunity against them. Karmic Strike also gives me a reduced armor check. But every time they hit me, they invoke an Attack of Opportunity. I was thinking if I had both, I'd get a free Attack of Opportunity, possibly 2, whenever someone tried to take me on in melee.

3)I'd say that feat would be powerful in a low level game where a character doesn't have much BAB to allow the damage strength boosts. Especially if his overall attack bonus is fairly low and he's not hitting reliably to begin with. And in low level games, well warriors really haven't started to fall behind yet. Character with +3 strength mod, two handed that's a +4. With your feat, that's a +6. Quite a difference to a second level fighter still fighting goblins and kobolds). In high level games, outside of certain builds (warhulking hurler), that feat would not be overpowered. Character with a +8 strength. On a two handed weapon he'd have +12 damage. You're boosting him up to 16, that's not a lot.
I see what you mean... dang. Two Handed Power Strike sounded cool...

I know virtually nothing about Incarnum, though I have skimmed the book before. I know people that swear by it, though.
I wonder if there's a guide for Incarnum lurking around somewhere....

See above, but replace Incarnum with Tome of Battle.
I suppose I should wait for Keld Denar then. He seems to be a Master of the Sublime Way, as well as relatively everything with D&D.

It depends on how they were rendered flat-footed. If it has something to do with ToB, I'm not the guy to ask.
There aren't regular attacks or items or anything that can re-render a target flat-footed?

I believe that Herrhauptmann is correct. If you PAed last round, you have to PA for the same amount on AoOs. However, the rules are super-duper fuzzy about whether or not you can choose to PA during an AoO. Probably not, though.
Heh. I'll just stay permanently Power Attacked. Doesn't cost an action to activate a Feat...

Yes, yes you can. Keep in mind that they stack for the other guy, too: your AC is effectively 8 points lower.
I'ma need a good constitution score, and maybe a way to heal myself, considering that my Amor Check is going to -always- be negative.... although 2 attacks every time someone hits me, in addition to moves I use on them? Sounds cool.... heck, if I get all these extra attacks of opportunity, maybe I should take another look at Storm Guard Warrior...

Like Herrhauptmann said, it depends on the level. If you're playing over level 10, it's definitely not worth the feat.
I should probably check myself to make sure I'm not feat starved anyway. But dang... it sounded cool....

herrhauptmann

2011-04-03, 11:10 AM

So I'm not the only person that took a look at it and couldn't make heads or tails of it? Or do you have a personal reason for dislike for it? Meh, eithr way, I suppose it's a low priority option, considering I only recently heard of it myself, and shouldn't be trying to apply too many entirely new concepts to the campaign...

Nah, just only read through it once or twice. That's enough to make a basic character, not enough to give advice regarding legality.

Using Robilar's Gambit gives me a reduced Armor Check, and I think it gave the enemies an increased attack bonus against me. But every time they swing at me, I get an Attack of Opportunity against them. Karmic Strike also gives me a reduced armor check. But every time they hit me, they invoke an Attack of Opportunity. I was thinking if I had both, I'd get a free Attack of Opportunity, possibly 2, whenever someone tried to take me on in melee.

Now that I think about it, I think they might stack. Certainly the Jack B Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick?pg=1) build uses both feats.

Curmudgeon

2011-04-03, 11:31 AM

And where does it say we can do trips/disarms/sunders on attacks of opportunity? I forget where I read it, although I know I saw it.
In the footnote to the "Actions in Combat" table, Player's Handbook page 141:
7 These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.

Keld Denar

2011-04-03, 11:32 AM

They do stack, one triggers on the attack, the other triggers on the hit.

I'll go over the Incarnum stuff when I get back from hiking. Try googling the wizards site for Sinfire_Titan's Incarnum handbook.

And you can make any attack that requires an attack action with an AoO. Trips, disarm, grapples, and sunders.

Lyndworm

2011-04-03, 02:32 PM

There aren't regular attacks or items or anything that can re-render a target flat-footed?
Pretty much just Feinting and some spell or another for the Spell Compendium. They bot state a specific duration, though.

I'ma need a good constitution score, and maybe a way to heal myself, considering that my Amor Check is going to -always- be negative.... although 2 attacks every time someone hits me, in addition to moves I use on them? Sounds cool.... heck, if I get all these extra attacks of opportunity, maybe I should take another look at Storm Guard Warrior...
So long as you're bombing your AC, you should definitely pick up Shock Trooper. It requires an extremely mediocre feat as a prerequisite, but it lets you subtract from your AC instead of your BAB when Power Attacking. It's a Tactical feat, so it has two other, lesser, benefits as well. They're actually pretty good if you Bull Rush a lot.

I don't think you stated your race... Do you have a cemented choice? The +2 LA Dragonborn Crucian has a +10 Con. The +0 LA Dragonborn Mongrelfolk has +6 Con. The +0 LA Dragonborn Water Orc is +4 Str, +4 Con, and they can take the Headlong Rush (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Headlong_Rush) feat. Just some suggestions.

herrhauptmann

2011-04-03, 03:00 PM

There aren't regular attacks or items or anything that can re-render a target flat-footed?

There's a skill trick in cmplete scoundrel that render your next attack a touch attack. Find the gap or something. Requires 12 ranks (not points, ranks) in spot though.
The spell has a similar name, so I always get them confused.

balistafreak

2011-04-03, 07:23 PM

I wonder if there's a guide for Incarnum lurking around somewhere....

Your Google-fu is weak. :smallwink:

"incarnum handbook":

Exactly what the prompt was. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0)

Incarnates in particular. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920.0)

The Totemist, if Incarnates aren't your thing. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0)

And then there's the Soulborn... we don't talk about the Soulborn. :smallannoyed:

Lyndworm

2011-04-04, 04:59 PM

There's a skill trick in cmplete scoundrel that render your next attack a touch attack. Find the gap or something. Requires 12 ranks (not points, ranks) in spot though.
The spell has a similar name, so I always get them confused.
The spell is called Wraithstrike, isn't it? Also, you can only use Skill Tricks 1/encounter. They're not quite as useful as they look.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-04, 10:57 PM

Nah, just only read through it once or twice. That's enough to make a basic character, not enough to give advice regarding legality.
I'm still curious about whether a non "Magic of Incarnum" class character can take Feats from it... any chance you know anything about that?

Now that I think about it, I think they might stack. Certainly the Jack B Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick?pg=1) build uses both feats.
I have 2 feat slots left, not counting my last Warblade bonus feat slot. And while Karmic Strike would have been awesome enough for me to consider droping my 1 character flavor feat, I am -not- picking up -Dodge- and -Combat Expertise- for it. 1 Flavorish Feat, or 1 Good Feat costing 3 slots. Personally, I feel it's a no brainer for the sake of the Flavorish Feat.

In the footnote to the "Actions in Combat" table, Player's Handbook page 141:
10gp says that I'm missing something in the Tome of Battle that rules whether or not Maneuvers can be used in such a way... although a Full Attack of 4 Standard Maneuvers seems sorta rigged (as far as non-gods are concerned), so I probably can't. I'd like some confirmation on that, just to make sure. On this and possible "Maneuvers of Opportunity".

They do stack, one triggers on the attack, the other triggers on the hit.
If only I had extra feat slots to -waste-.... ah well. 1 retaliating strike per every time they swing at me is good enough. Hm.... if I haven't used my Swift action, could I Wall of Blades against the hit, and then use Robilar's Gambit to strike back? Also, can I use Robilar's Gambit on an Attack of Opportunity?

I'll go over the Incarnum stuff when I get back from hiking. Try googling the wizards site for Sinfire_Titan's Incarnum handbook.
From what I have read and understood, assuming I haven't been misunderstanding, I'm looking to see if I can apply Cobalt Power, and maybe Cobalt Precision.

And you can make any attack that requires an attack action with an AoO. Trips, disarm, grapples, and sunders.
Even Maneuvers? Or just the basic types of different melee attacks?

Pretty much just Feinting and some spell or another for the Spell Compendium. They bot state a specific duration, though.
Meh. Probably shouldn't worry about it. There's only like 1-2 moves I have that would cause it anyway, and they'll be passed over by awesomeness with enough levels.

So long as you're bombing your AC, you should definitely pick up Shock Trooper. It requires an extremely mediocre feat as a prerequisite, but it lets you subtract from your AC instead of your BAB when Power Attacking. It's a Tactical feat, so it has two other, lesser, benefits as well. They're actually pretty good if you Bull Rush a lot.
Shock Trooper would be awesome, but I'm using my Human Bonus Feat at first level to pick up another sweet edition from Ultimate Feats: Reckless Attack. It's like Shock Trooper, but I can combine it and Power Attack, and use it at will instead of only when charging. Not to mention no Improved Bull Rush.

I don't think you stated your race... Do you have a cemented choice? The +2 LA Dragonborn Crucian has a +10 Con. The +0 LA Dragonborn Mongrelfolk has +6 Con. The +0 LA Dragonborn Water Orc is +4 Str, +4 Con, and they can take the Headlong Rush (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Headlong_Rush) feat. Just some suggestions.
Someone earlier tried to ask me that too. Wanted me to be a Cat-Folk so I could get that Cat Pounce thing. But I's a human. Be me a God, a Beatstick, or Worm Food, I's a Humans.

There's a skill trick in cmplete scoundrel that render your next attack a touch attack. Find the gap or something. Requires 12 ranks (not points, ranks) in spot though.
Spots not an issue. Neither is Listen or Search. I have Eyes. I have Ears. So the DM rules that all 3 skills are automatically class skills.

The spell has a similar name, so I always get them confused.
A spell named Find the Gap? Seriously, wizards have -way- too much time on their hands.

Your Google-fu is weak. :smallwink:
"incarnum handbook":
Exactly what the prompt was. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0)
Incarnates in particular. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920.0)
The Totemist, if Incarnates aren't your thing. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0)
And then there's the Soulborn... we don't talk about the Soulborn. :smallannoyed:
What's wrong with the Soulborn? And also, it's not specifically any one class of Incarnum (unless I -really don't understand what I'm reading and the answer over it I seeked was within your submited threads), it's more non-Magic of Incarnum Classes taking Magic of Incarnum Feats. Cobalt Power sounds cool.

The spell is called Wraithstrike, isn't it? Also, you can only use Skill Tricks 1/encounter. They're not quite as useful as they look.
Oh... so when an attack renders a target flat footed, it means that, like for that round, they just lose a bit of dex bonus to dodging attacks.... at least I think...

I'ma start spoilering anything that I haven't figured out that I've already asked about at the end of my latest post. You guys care if I do that? And if I do it, will you see it?

Also, I haven't said it in a while, so I'll say it now: Thank you guys for all your help and tips.

Keld Denar

2011-04-05, 12:34 AM

You can't initiate a martial strike as an AoO. Its not a basic attack. Most of them are standard actions.

But yes, if someone attacked you and you had Robilar's Gambit, you could deflect the attack with Wall of Blades and still claim your AoO. RG only cares if your foe attacks you, not whether they hit you or not. Do note that RG gives your foe a +4 to hit you, which means you have to roll 4 points higher on Wall of Blades to deflect attacks. Wall is almost better for things like rays and other ranged touch attacks, and with bad guys spend too much attack bonus on Power Attack. Otherwise it's hard to get your AB high enough to really block any attacks that really want to hit you.

Incarnum feats are decent for non-incarum folks, and Shape Soulmeld is great for anyone. One thing to note, is that you won't have very much Essentia, the juice that powers most of your abilities. Not all melds are very Essentia dependant though. Some of them, like Planar Ward, are great even with 0 Essentia invested. Planar Ward is basically Protection from Evil, all day, for a feat. Not too shabby, eh?

What other questions do you have? Try to number them, it'll make it easier to respond.

The Cat Goddess

2011-04-05, 11:36 AM

You can initiate a Boost with an AoO.

Darrin

2011-04-05, 11:43 AM

You can initiate a Boost with an AoO.

Not unless it's an immediate action or a counter. Swift actions can only be used on your turn.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-07, 01:22 AM

Been busy for a bit, and I'm not sure if I can remember everything.

1)This probably isn't the place to ask such a question, but where would I go, thread wise, to ask about NPC Creation? Should the case of the feats/build being used for the Wizard and Fighter creating items and such ever become an issue, having something to back it up would be cool. And while I was there, I might ask about help in creating an Animal Template. Story Lines and all. While I think about it, since I did do a little looking, some Magic Items will require a Cleric to construct them, too...

2)Just to banish the thought and any other thoughts from my head once-and-for-all, I can only use a Standard Attack or Full Attack based Maneuver when it's my turn, during what would be my attack, and can only use Counters / Boosts when I haven't already wasted the Swift / Immediate Action they'd use, right?

3)I'm still looking for some concrete material that says whether or not 2 Handed Power Attack + Monster Slayer + Leap Attack = x8 or x6 Damage, based on whether or not Leap Attack just adds a multiplier or outright doubles all damage. I'm still uncertain of it, and that exponential a multiplier seems odd through such a simple feat....

4)My standard action involves a Powerfully Reckless Attack, trained for even more damage against Larger or bigger creatures. That's an x3 Multiplier to damage. I shouldn't be asking for -more- math issues, but how does Ruby / Diamond Nightmare Blade factor into damage? Heh, thank goodness we can't combine Diamond Nightmare Blade and Leap Attack.....

5)Randomish question... a maneuver that simply adds extra damage dice to my attack and makes it do something special (like Finishing Move doing more damage against a weakened enemy, or Lightning Throw being one of my only ways to do ranged damage). Can such moves have basic amounts of power attack added to them? (I suppose I should also include Strike of Perfect Clarity as well, since I'm unsure of whether or not it is multiplied by Power Attack or just a completely seperate set of additional damage added to the attack, and I assume it to be the latter).

6)I wonder about Robilar's Gambit + Karmic Strike vs someone else with Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. Would they just be hitting eachother back and forth until someone runs out of Dex before the other? Can't add in Karmic Strike, unfortunately, but still sounds like an interesting scenario.

7)Checked out Protection from Evil.... Pierce Magical Concealment + Ring of Blinking sounds Cheesy, but awesome none the less. Not too sure about investing in Displacer Mantle.... I still could have sworn there were a few Magic of Incarnum Feats that would work very well with me, either by increasing the number of points I could dip into Power Attack, or by increasing my Accuracy....

8)I saw a thread asking about ways to permanently increase an ability score. Gloves of Dexterity, Belt of Ogre Power, Amulet of Health, good stat rolls, and Tomes / Manuals of Upgraded Statage (not including Periapt of Wisdom, Cloak of Charisma, or Headband of Intellect because, let's face it, Warriors have better items that could go in those slots). That's pretty much all I can do / get, right? No Reincarnation Cheese, and No Random Template Buy-Off.

9)Haste. I could get a Weapon of Speed Upgrade (despite it costing an -ass- load), and maybe the Boot of Springing and Striding (despite it giving only a 10+ speed that I'm not sure stacks with the stance that grants a similar bonus I'd get through a stance). Any other way for me to simulate Haste without needing to go to the party Sorceror (or Cleric if she takes the right domain)?

10)Can my Armor Check be Negative, and if so, do I recieve any other penalties at that point? Or does a 0/- Armor check mean the target always hits me unless there's a miss-chance or critical fail roll involved?

11)Assuming I -had- to fight something I could not reach, an 18 in Strength at character creation would allow me to use a Composite Longbow without issue, even without proficiency, right? You know what, just brief me on how a Composite Bow works, because I still probably don't have it right. And if I'm -not- capable of using a Bow at all, can I use -anything- else, preferably capable of being easily replinished (arrows aren't usually worried about, ammunition wise, which was why I suggested it)? I saw in another thread about a recommendation of a Holy Frost Flaming Thunder Bow. You can't tell me that wouldn't make an interesting item. How would that even -appear-?

12)Can a Magic Item be upgraded after creation? Or must something be remade multiple times to get better versions of it? I've been wondering about this one for a while, but remembered it as I turned my browser off after copying/pastying. Funny how that works.

13)In lame-man's terms, what items and spells and stuff do stack and don't stack? My eyes haven't been working right since playing with the 3D of the 3DS, and I may be inventing words.

ffone

2011-04-07, 01:39 AM

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-07, 01:50 AM

9) Boots of Speed will likely be a much better deal than a Speed weapon, unless you need the boot slot for something better and the DM doesn't let you combine items.

They in effect cost 1,200 gp per round of haste per day (a Speed weapon adds at least 30,000 gp to its price), you get the other bonuses of haste (+1 attack, AC, reflex) in addition to the extra attack like Speed, and can use it with any weapon.

Can you believe I'm too much of a "Manly Man" to reconsider clacking my heels together, even if it saves me possibly 30-50,000 gp? If it can be refluffed to something else, like shifting the weight of my feet onto the front of the boots, or something else that doesn't have similar conitation to "There's no place like home! There's no place like home!", then I'll leap dirrectly into it. Other wise, I'm actually still considering being opposed to it. It's stupid to dislike something that does exactly what you want just because it's somewhat girly... I'll leave it as my final possibility; if no other option that is both as convenient and manlier shows up, then I'll use them. But clicking your heals....... I'm not sure I want much of that....

I think I've been playing too much Gears of War, sawing things in half. But the Lancer is so much fun...

Lyndworm

2011-04-07, 02:34 AM

1)This probably isn't the place to ask such a question, but where would I go, thread wise, to ask about NPC Creation? Should the case of the feats/build being used for the Wizard and Fighter creating items and such ever become an issue, having something to back it up would be cool. And while I was there, I might ask about help in creating an Animal Template. Story Lines and all. While I think about it, since I did do a little looking, some Magic Items will require a Cleric to construct them, too...
I'm not sure about the NPC thing, but you should probably just make a separate thread for that. I have no idea what you mean by an "Animal Template." Would you mind elaborating a bit?

2)Just to banish the thought and any other thoughts from my head once-and-for-all, I can only use a Standard Attack or Full Attack based Maneuver when it's my turn, during what would be my attack, and can only use Counters / Boosts when I haven't already wasted the Swift / Immediate Action they'd use, right?
Correct.

3)I'm still looking for some concrete material that says whether or not 2 Handed Power Attack + Monster Slayer + Leap Attack = x8 or x6 Damage, based on whether or not Leap Attack just adds a multiplier or outright doubles all damage. I'm still uncertain of it, and that exponential a multiplier seems odd through such a simple feat....
Well, it is definitely not a multiplier; it specifically states "+100%." The question comes when you try to define "normal damage." It's either Power Attack + Monster Slayer +100% or Power Attack + 100% + Monster Slayer.

4)My standard action involves a Powerfully Reckless Attack, trained for even more damage against Larger or bigger creatures. That's an x3 Multiplier to damage. I shouldn't be asking for -more- math issues, but how does Ruby / Diamond Nightmare Blade factor into damage? Heh, thank goodness we can't combine Diamond Nightmare Blade and Leap Attack.....
I don't have access to third party material, and I'm not very familiar with Tome of Battle. I'm going to leave this alone.

5)Randomish question... a maneuver that simply adds extra damage dice to my attack and makes it do something special (like Finishing Move doing more damage against a weakened enemy, or Lightning Throw being one of my only ways to do ranged damage). Can such moves have basic amounts of power attack added to them? (I suppose I should also include Strike of Perfect Clarity as well, since I'm unsure of whether or not it is multiplied by Power Attack or just a completely seperate set of additional damage added to the attack, and I assume it to be the latter).
Again, I'm not very familiar with Tome of Battle. You should be able to add Power Attack to any melee attack made during your turn, however.

6)I wonder about Robilar's Gambit + Karmic Strike vs someone else with Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. Would they just be hitting eachother back and forth until someone runs out of Dex before the other? Can't add in Karmic Strike, unfortunately, but still sounds like an interesting scenario.
Pretty much, yeah.

7)Checked out Protection from Evil.... Pierce Magical Concealment + Ring of Blinking sounds Cheesy, but awesome none the less. Not too sure about investing in Displacer Mantle.... I still could have sworn there were a few Magic of Incarnum Feats that would work very well with me, either by increasing the number of points I could dip into Power Attack, or by increasing my Accuracy....
I'm not familiar enough with Incarnum to confirm or deny your suspicions.

8)I saw a thread asking about ways to permanently increase an ability score. Gloves of Dexterity, Belt of Ogre Power, Amulet of Health, good stat rolls, and Tomes / Manuals of Upgraded Statage (not including Periapt of Wisdom, Cloak of Charisma, or Headband of Intellect because, let's face it, Warriors have better items that could go in those slots). That's pretty much all I can do / get, right? No Reincarnation Cheese, and No Random Template Buy-Off.
There are some spells that add Morale or Divine bonuses, but they might be Personal range only... Also, the Gloves, Belt, and Amulet are not technically permanent. If you remove them or walk into an AMF they stop giving you the boost.

9)Haste. I could get a Weapon of Speed Upgrade (despite it costing an -ass- load), and maybe the Boot of Springing and Striding (despite it giving only a 10+ speed that I'm not sure stacks with the stance that grants a similar bonus I'd get through a stance). Any other way for me to simulate Haste without needing to go to the party Sorceror (or Cleric if she takes the right domain)?
As mentioned, Boots of Speed are probably your best bet. If your DM is anywhere near reasonable he shouldn't have a problem with refluffing them.

10)Can my Armor Check be Negative, and if so, do I recieve any other penalties at that point? Or does a 0/- Armor check mean the target always hits me unless there's a miss-chance or critical fail roll involved?
I don't believe your Armor Class can be negative, but it wouldn't really matter if it were. Whether your AC was 0 or -46 the bad guys could still hit you on anything but a 1 (assuming it has a positive attack modifier, of course).

11)Assuming I -had- to fight something I could not reach, an 18 in Strength at character creation would allow me to use a Composite Longbow without issue, even without proficiency, right? You know what, just brief me on how a Composite Bow works, because I still probably don't have it right.
Any character proficient with the longbow is proficient with the composite longbow, though they take a -2 penalty to attack rolls if it's designed for a stronger wielder. A composite bow is built with a minimum Strength rating, such as +1 or +19. It allows you to add your Strength to damage rolls, but only up to a maximum of the rating. So, if you have an 18 Strength you can use a composite bow of up to a +4 Strength rating without additional penalties. You still take non-proficiency penalties (-4) if you're not proficient with bows.

And if I'm -not- capable of using a Bow at all, can I use -anything- else, preferably capable of being easily replinished (arrows aren't usually worried about, ammunition wise, which was why I suggested it)?
Crossbows are Simple weapons, so you're almost certainly proficient with them (since you're a combat character). They have a higher base damage and higher range, too. They do have the reload-time drawback, however. If you're willing to spend the money, there are the Gloves of Endless Javelins (7,000gp) from the Magic Item Compendium. They do pretty much what you'd think they'd do.

I saw in another thread about a recommendation of a Holy Frost Flaming Thunder Bow. You can't tell me that wouldn't make an interesting item. How would that even -appear-?
Appear as in "where can I find it" or appear is in "what would it look like?" The answer to the first is entirely up to your DM, the answer to the second is pretty much the same. By "Thunder" do you mean Shocking or Thundering? One adds electricity damage, the other adds sonic damage (but only on a Critical hit). The only thing I can say for certain is that 50% of all magic weapons emit light equivalent to that of a torch.

12)Can a Magic Item be upgraded after creation? Or must something be remade multiple times to get better versions of it? I've been wondering about this one for a while, but remembered it as I turned my browser off after copying/pastying. Funny how that works.
Magic items that add to your AC, stats, energy resistance, or Saving Throw bonuses can be upgraded after creation, according to the MIC. I don't believe that there are rules for upgrading weapons, so technically you cannot upgrade them (assuming that I'm not forgetting anything, of course). However, it would make sense to let you do it the same way as the other items.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-08, 12:14 AM

I'm not sure about the NPC thing, but you should probably just make a separate thread for that. I have no idea what you mean by an "Animal Template." Would you mind elaborating a bit?
I suppose I was a bit vauge with it. The Template would be designed for Animals / Magical Beasts, for the sake of creating enemies / providing the back ground for the existance of an animal for the sake of story lines. I'd go into more detail, but it probably is better for another thread. I'm warry about an NPC Creation Thread, though, if only because I make too many threads. And the last one, over creating a rival group for a party to face, based on Dethklok, bombed. Then again, it probably wouldn't hurt to do so....

Well, it is definitely not a multiplier; it specifically states "+100%." The question comes when you try to define "normal damage." It's either Power Attack + Monster Slayer +100% or Power Attack + 100% + Monster Slayer.
At this point in time, it's probably impossible to get an -official- ruling... wonder what the players think... maybe I should just ask the DM how it'd work. Although she'd probably just say she doesn't mind how I use it, considering both ways can be seen and understood... I feel like it would be the first way, if only because Monster Slayer automatically acts so long as the enemy is of the right size (which seems like it would be apart of what could be considered Normal Damage. I've seen people dispute Frenzied Berzerker in such a way as well), and Leap Attack requires what seems like slightly more situational set up.

Pretty much, yeah.
An interesting way for 2 people to kill each other, that's for sure. I wonder how epic a fight could be that involved 2 warriors not even dirrectly targeting each other, but simply attacking whenever the enemy loses focus or does something weird.

There are some spells that add Morale or Divine bonuses, but they might be Personal range only... Also, the Gloves, Belt, and Amulet are not technically permanent. If you remove them or walk into an AMF they stop giving you the boost.
Well, the spells would require me to get buffed by an ally... I'm focused more on things I could do myself, whether or not an ally was there to help me. Stinks that an Anti Magic Field messes up a good 1/3rd of my possible statage, but otherwise, sounds like the best I can do on my own, right?

As mentioned, Boots of Speed are probably your best bet. If your DM is anywhere near reasonable he shouldn't have a problem with refluffing them.
Hopefully. I shall stomp my Feet, then I shall dash and produce the Omnislash! Just in case, I'm still open to other options.... although now that I think about it, what other kind of boots do I really need?

I don't believe your Armor Class can be negative, but it wouldn't really matter if it were. Whether your AC was 0 or -46 the bad guys could still hit you on anything but a 1 (assuming it has a positive attack modifier, of course).
A Negative Bonus seems like it would be funny. Like if someone high-fived me and did 3 damage to me because my defenses are so bad. XD
I'll just leave my Armor Check at 0.

Any character proficient with the longbow is proficient with the composite longbow, though they take a -2 penalty to attack rolls if it's designed for a stronger wielder. A composite bow is built with a minimum Strength rating, such as +1 or +19. It allows you to add your Strength to damage rolls, but only up to a maximum of the rating. So, if you have an 18 Strength you can use a composite bow of up to a +4 Strength rating without additional penalties. You still take non-proficiency penalties (-4) if you're not proficient with bows.
My 18 Strength negates the non-proficiency penalty, doesn't it? I don't gain the bonus, but I'm not screwed using the thing either....

Crossbows are Simple weapons, so you're almost certainly proficient with them (since you're a combat character). They have a higher base damage and higher range, too. They do have the reload-time drawback, however. If you're willing to spend the money, there are the Gloves of Endless Javelins (7,000gp) from the Magic Item Compendium. They do pretty much what you'd think they'd do.
Warblades are only proficient with Melee Weapons (although we're proficient with all but Exotic, so that's kinda cool). I think I wanna go with a Composite Bow, if only for the little extra damage until I can get into Melee Range. Then it's Wombo Combo time. Not sure about Javelins. Part of me is attached to +6 Dex (+3 Attacks of Opportunity sounds -nice-), but I'm willing to change for the sake of infinite throwy things.... I should think it over.

Appear as in "where can I find it" or appear is in "what would it look like?" The answer to the first is entirely up to your DM, the answer to the second is pretty much the same. By "Thunder" do you mean Shocking or Thundering? One adds electricity damage, the other adds sonic damage (but only on a Critical hit). The only thing I can say for certain is that 50% of all magic weapons emit light equivalent to that of a torch.
I ment Shocking. Too many freaking Pikachus. The afforementioned NPC Wizard and Cleric would probably be my character's go-to for creating such a Bow (maybe after looking at him like he was mental...). The second is what I meant to ask. How do you have a weapon that's on Fire, Frozen, and Electrified all at once, in addition to Holy Energy? That's just ridiculous. Beaten in ridiculousness only by the fact that (if my knowledge is right) a Neutral Character could use a Holy Unholy Fire Frozen Electric Anarchic Axiomatic Bow (although I'm not sure how such a thing could even be created...). And I think I'll request my Sword be a Night Light.

Magic items that add to your AC, stats, energy resistance, or Saving Throw bonuses can be upgraded after creation, according to the MIC. I don't believe that there are rules for upgrading weapons, so technically you cannot upgrade them (assuming that I'm not forgetting anything, of course). However, it would make sense to let you do it the same way as the other items.
Does it simply say you can't upgrade them? Or is doing so simply not spoken of? I remeber Roy getting his sword reforged... shouldn't be too hard for a weapon to be remade by a sufficiently capable character..

Unanswered Questions:
4)My standard action involves a Powerfully Reckless Attack, trained for even more damage against Larger or bigger creatures. That's an x3 Multiplier to damage. I shouldn't be asking for -more- math issues, but how does Ruby / Diamond Nightmare Blade factor into damage? Heh, thank goodness we can't combine Diamond Nightmare Blade and Leap Attack.....

5)Randomish question... a maneuver that simply adds extra damage dice to my attack and makes it do something special (like Finishing Move doing more damage against a weakened enemy, or Lightning Throw being one of my only ways to do ranged damage). Can such moves have basic amounts of power attack added to them? (I suppose I should also include Strike of Perfect Clarity as well, since I'm unsure of whether or not it is multiplied by Power Attack or just a completely seperate set of additional damage added to the attack, and I assume it to be the latter).

7)Checked out Protection from Evil.... Pierce Magical Concealment + Ring of Blinking sounds Cheesy, but awesome none the less. Not too sure about investing in Displacer Mantle.... I still could have sworn there were a few Magic of Incarnum Feats that would work very well with me, either by increasing the number of points I could dip into Power Attack, or by increasing my Accuracy....

8)I saw a thread asking about ways to permanently increase an ability score. Gloves of Dexterity, Belt of Ogre Power, Amulet of Health, good stat rolls, and Tomes / Manuals of Upgraded Statage (not including Periapt of Wisdom, Cloak of Charisma, or Headband of Intellect because, let's face it, Warriors have better items that could go in those slots). That's pretty much all I can do / get, right? No Reincarnation Cheese, and No Random Template Buy-Off.

9)Haste. I could get a Weapon of Speed Upgrade (despite it costing an -ass- load), and maybe the Boot of Springing and Striding (despite it giving only a 10+ speed that I'm not sure stacks with the stance that grants a similar bonus I'd get through a stance). Any other way for me to simulate Haste without needing to go to the party Sorceror (or Cleric if she takes the right domain)?

11)Assuming I -had- to fight something I could not reach, an 18 in Strength at character creation would allow me to use a Composite Longbow without issue, even without proficiency, right? You know what, just brief me on how a Composite Bow works, because I still probably don't have it right. And if I'm -not- capable of using a Bow at all, can I use -anything- else, preferably capable of being easily replinished (arrows aren't usually worried about, ammunition wise, which was why I suggested it)? I saw in another thread about a recommendation of a Holy Frost Flaming Thunder Bow. You can't tell me that wouldn't make an interesting item. How would that even -appear-?

12)Can a Magic Item be upgraded after creation? Or must something be remade multiple times to get better versions of it? I've been wondering about this one for a while, but remembered it as I turned my browser off after copying/pastying. Funny how that works.

13)In lame-man's terms, what items and spells and stuff do stack and don't stack? My eyes haven't been working right since playing with the 3D of the 3DS, and I may be inventing words.

And yes, I did just quote the questions I had and deleted them, although I probably should edit each question if I've figured something out or become more confused...

Keld Denar

2011-04-08, 12:32 AM

Unless you are fighting a foe that refuses to come into melee range, at high levels you are often better off just sitting there next to your caster with your melee weapon ready. That saves you from either the action of drawing the weapon, or the cost of spending a feat on Quickdraw or a weapon crystal slot on Lesser Returning. Just sit tight and your caster should either deliver your foe to you, or enable you to reach your foe. The 1d8+4 damage you deal with the bow is nothing compared to the damage you'll do with your primary melee weapon and all of it's enchants doing a full attack or a big high level strike. At high levels, actions become more precious than a couple points of damage.

There is a Holy Unholy Axiomatic Anarchic greatsword. Its wielded by a Concordent Killer in IIRC, the MM IV. A true neutral character could wield one without eating the negative levels, as could any Horizon Walker with the Aligned Planar Terrain Mastery trait. Not a whole lot of point to it though, as you'd only apply at most 2 of the traits against any given foe. A +9 weapon (minimum to get all 4 enchants) is FREAKIN EXPENSIVE! and you'd have better results with other enchants.

And you CAN upgrade weapons/armor in a manner similar to wonderous items, assuming you have access to a crafter. Simply pay him the difference between your weapon costs and if he's able to, he should (DM willing, but the rules allow it).

EDIT:

4)My standard action involves a Powerfully Reckless Attack, trained for even more damage against Larger or bigger creatures. That's an x3 Multiplier to damage. I shouldn't be asking for -more- math issues, but how does Ruby / Diamond Nightmare Blade factor into damage? Heh, thank goodness we can't combine Diamond Nightmare Blade and Leap Attack.....

You use standard D&D math. x3 + x2 = x4. x3 + x4 = x6, for Ruby and Diamond Nightmare Strikes respectively.

5)Randomish question... a maneuver that simply adds extra damage dice to my attack and makes it do something special (like Finishing Move doing more damage against a weakened enemy, or Lightning Throw being one of my only ways to do ranged damage). Can such moves have basic amounts of power attack added to them? (I suppose I should also include Strike of Perfect Clarity as well, since I'm unsure of whether or not it is multiplied by Power Attack or just a completely seperate set of additional damage added to the attack, and I assume it to be the latter).
Strikes that deal +damage like Finishing Move or Strike of Perfect Clarity also deal weapon damage and include things like +Str, +Enhancement, and PA damage normally. The only strikes you CAN'T Power Attack on, IIRC, are Insightful and Greater Insightful Strikes.

7)Checked out Protection from Evil.... Pierce Magical Concealment + Ring of Blinking sounds Cheesy, but awesome none the less. Not too sure about investing in Displacer Mantle.... I still could have sworn there were a few Magic of Incarnum Feats that would work very well with me, either by increasing the number of points I could dip into Power Attack, or by increasing my Accuracy....
Cobalt Power will increase your PA damage by...1 as long as you PA for at least 1 point, unless you have another source of essentia. Thats the only incarnum feat that affects non-special melee attacks. Not worth it.

8)I saw a thread asking about ways to permanently increase an ability score. Gloves of Dexterity, Belt of Ogre Power, Amulet of Health, good stat rolls, and Tomes / Manuals of Upgraded Statage (not including Periapt of Wisdom, Cloak of Charisma, or Headband of Intellect because, let's face it, Warriors have better items that could go in those slots). That's pretty much all I can do / get, right? No Reincarnation Cheese, and No Random Template Buy-Off.
Um, there are a few spells, namedly Valiant Fury (CWarrior/SpC) that grant non-enhancement bonuses. They are very rare and often very limited.

9)Haste. I could get a Weapon of Speed Upgrade (despite it costing an -ass- load), and maybe the Boot of Springing and Striding (despite it giving only a 10+ speed that I'm not sure stacks with the stance that grants a similar bonus I'd get through a stance). Any other way for me to simulate Haste without needing to go to the party Sorceror (or Cleric if she takes the right domain)?
Boots of Speed give Haste for 10 rounds per day. Armor of Speed gives 3 rounds each, costs slightly more than the boost, but is essentially unslotted. You could put it on your armor and shield, if you had one, for 6 rounds per day. I wouldn't get a weapon of speed, especially since it does NOTHING for you when you use a standard action strike.

11)Assuming I -had- to fight something I could not reach, an 18 in Strength at character creation would allow me to use a Composite Longbow without issue, even without proficiency, right? You know what, just brief me on how a Composite Bow works, because I still probably don't have it right. And if I'm -not- capable of using a Bow at all, can I use -anything- else, preferably capable of being easily replinished (arrows aren't usually worried about, ammunition wise, which was why I suggested it)? I saw in another thread about a recommendation of a Holy Frost Flaming Thunder Bow. You can't tell me that wouldn't make an interesting item. How would that even -appear-?
I think I answered this above. As far as how it would look, well, thats up to you. Maybe the fire crackles with an electric charge and gives off frost crystals instead of smoke, or maybe it cycles quickly between blue, yellow, and red, or whatever. Its a legal weapon, since there is no rule that says you CAN'T have a +1 Flaming Frost Shock whatever.

12)Can a Magic Item be upgraded after creation? Or must something be remade multiple times to get better versions of it? I've been wondering about this one for a while, but remembered it as I turned my browser off after copying/pastying. Funny how that works.
Again, answered above.

13)In lame-man's terms, what items and spells and stuff do stack and don't stack? My eyes haven't been working right since playing with the 3D of the 3DS, and I may be inventing words.
In general, things with different named bonuses always stack. If you had an enhancement bonus, a moral bonus, an insight bonus, and a sacred bonus to one stat or roll, you'd get to apply them all. If you had 3 different enhancement bonuses applying to the same thing, you'd only get whichever one is strongest as it would "overwrite" the others. Example, Bless gives a +1 moral bonus to hit. Inspire Courage (Bard ability) at 8th level gives a +2 moral bonus to hit and damage. If you were affected by both, you'd only have the +2 to hit (as its bigger than the +1 from Bless), and then you'd get the +2 to damage (as its the only one).

Lyndworm

2011-04-08, 01:04 AM

My 18 Strength negates the non-proficiency penalty, doesn't it? I don't gain the bonus, but I'm not screwed using the thing either....
No, it doesn't. You still use Dex to attack, so your Str has no bearing on the matter. If you had a +40 Str modifier, you'd still take a -4 to-hit penalty, and you'd still use Dex. Composite bows allow you to add a certain amount of Str to the damage, but the attack goes unaffected.

Warblades are only proficient with Melee Weapons (although we're proficient with all but Exotic, so that's kinda cool). I think I wanna go with a Composite Bow, if only for the little extra damage until I can get into Melee Range. Then it's Wombo Combo time. Not sure about Javelins. Part of me is attached to +6 Dex (+3 Attacks of Opportunity sounds -nice-), but I'm willing to change for the sake of infinite throwy things.... I should think it over.
The MiC also has rules for combining items like that (super cheaply, I might add), but you're still not proficient as javelins are ranged-only.

I ment Shocking. Too many freaking Pikachus. The afforementioned NPC Wizard and Cleric would probably be my character's go-to for creating such a Bow (maybe after looking at him like he was mental...). The second is what I meant to ask. How do you have a weapon that's on Fire, Frozen, and Electrified all at once, in addition to Holy Energy? That's just ridiculous. Beaten in ridiculousness only by the fact that (if my knowledge is right) a Neutral Character could use a Holy Unholy Fire Frozen Electric Anarchic Axiomatic Bow (although I'm not sure how such a thing could even be created...). And I think I'll request my Sword be a Night Light.
Other than the fact that you can't afford that weapon, there's nothing wrong with it. I've used Flaming, Corrosive, Shocking Weapons of Frost in the past. It's really not that hard to imagine.

Does it simply say you can't upgrade them? Or is doing so simply not spoken of? I remeber Roy getting his sword reforged... shouldn't be too hard for a weapon to be remade by a sufficiently capable character..
Well, I would have just told you that there are no rules for it, which means that any rules you use to do so are technically Homebrew no matter how similar they are to other rules and no matter how much sense they make...but apparently I would've been wrong.

And you CAN upgrade weapons/armor in a manner similar to wonderous items, assuming you have access to a crafter. Simply pay him the difference between your weapon costs and if he's able to, he should (DM willing, but the rules allow it).
This wouldn't be the first time that I've missed something, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen that rule in a book (or the SRD). Would you mind dropping a reference?

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-12, 04:51 PM

My, how time sure flys...

Unless you are fighting a foe that refuses to come into melee range, at high levels you are often better off just sitting there next to your caster with your melee weapon ready. That saves you from either the action of drawing the weapon, or the cost of spending a feat on Quickdraw or a weapon crystal slot on Lesser Returning. Just sit tight and your caster should either deliver your foe to you, or enable you to reach your foe. The 1d8+4 damage you deal with the bow is nothing compared to the damage you'll do with your primary melee weapon and all of it's enchants doing a full attack or a big high level strike. At high levels, actions become more precious than a couple points of damage.
I forget that Clerics can grant flying abilities.... I also feel slightly retarded that I forgot about Lightning Throw (despite it being in one of my previous questions). Meh. Either way, I suppose I shouldn't worry about ranged combat too much past the first couple of levels, just for safety. Although I -will- keep a Dagger with me. I've Swallowed Whole plenty of unprepared villagers. I don't intend to be eaten alive.

There is a Holy Unholy Axiomatic Anarchic greatsword. Its wielded by a Concordent Killer in IIRC, the MM IV. A true neutral character could wield one without eating the negative levels, as could any Horizon Walker with the Aligned Planar Terrain Mastery trait. Not a whole lot of point to it though, as you'd only apply at most 2 of the traits against any given foe. A +9 weapon (minimum to get all 4 enchants) is FREAKIN EXPENSIVE! and you'd have better results with other enchants.
It's pure novelty. Sounds -cool- -as- -hell-, though. Something a King would use, just 'cause it's so cool.

And you CAN upgrade weapons/armor in a manner similar to wonderous items, assuming you have access to a crafter. Simply pay him the difference between your weapon costs and if he's able to, he should (DM willing, but the rules allow it).
I feel like I had a mental brain fart, but is this in responce to "Upgrading a Weapon after its initial magical construction? If so, where does it say that you can? I suck at finding things, but I've been going through the Player's Manual and the Dungeon Master's Guide and can't find presidence. Then again, I couldn't find the Exp per Level Chart. XD
Also, what do you mean when you mention wonderous items? Which reminds me of another question: ffone mentioned something about combining items unless the DM says you can't. What does he/she mean by that?

You use standard D&D math. x3 + x2 = x4. x3 + x4 = x6, for Ruby and Diamond Nightmare Strikes respectively.
Doesn't sound quite as cool when it's just being added to damage rather than outright multiplied. Then again, x4 and x6 Damage during 1 standard action sounds freaking awesome, so math nitpicking and dreams of rigged damage can go screw themselves.

Strikes that deal +damage like Finishing Move or Strike of Perfect Clarity also deal weapon damage and include things like +Str, +Enhancement, and PA damage normally. The only strikes you CAN'T Power Attack on, IIRC, are Insightful and Greater Insightful Strikes.
Damn.... not only can I do awesome fighter damage, but every time I would be doing that damage, I can do a maneuver and add a bunch of d6s or outright +100 damage. Although now I wanna reconsider the Insightful Line, since I don't see myself doing as much damage with them...

Cobalt Power will increase your PA damage by...1 as long as you PA for at least 1 point, unless you have another source of essentia. Thats the only incarnum feat that affects non-special melee attacks. Not worth it.
Thanks, Admiral! Heh. To think that they recommended that Feat for the Fighter Class. Now, to decide if I want to take Planar Ward, or go into Anti Magic Fighting.... Is their anyway to combine an Incarnum Feat with the Pierce Magical Concealment without needing the Ring of Blinking?

Um, there are a few spells, namedly Valiant Fury (CWarrior/SpC) that grant non-enhancement bonuses. They are very rare and often very limited.
I'm not looking for Spells with which to upgrade my stats, unless I can have easy access to them and they can be made permanentish. I'm thinking more permanentish ways to obtain greater power, which is why I mentioned the 3 things (base stats +1 upgrade per 4 levels, Tombs of Upgraded Stats, and Magic Items of Upgraded Stats{so long as the dm doesn't try to rob me of said items}) that I remember being able to work together. Anything else that's easy to apply and capable of stacking with what's already in place is okay.

Boots of Speed give Haste for 10 rounds per day. Armor of Speed gives 3 rounds each, costs slightly more than the boost, but is essentially unslotted. You could put it on your armor and shield, if you had one, for 6 rounds per day. I wouldn't get a weapon of speed, especially since it does NOTHING for you when you use a standard action strike.
Where do you get Armor of Haste? Also, I don't think I want a Shield anymore. Considering my AC will be forever reduced by an amount equal to my Base Attack Bonus (last time I checked, it'll pretty much always be at 0), the few points a shield provides, even as an Animated Shield, seems like it would be a water-balloon in a volcano.

I think I answered this above. As far as how it would look, well, thats up to you. Maybe the fire crackles with an electric charge and gives off frost crystals instead of smoke, or maybe it cycles quickly between blue, yellow, and red, or whatever. Its a legal weapon, since there is no rule that says you CAN'T have a +1 Flaming Frost Shock whatever.
Where did you get that idea? That description sounds like someone's been on meth! XD

In general, things with different named bonuses always stack. If you had an enhancement bonus, a moral bonus, an insight bonus, and a sacred bonus to one stat or roll, you'd get to apply them all. If you had 3 different enhancement bonuses applying to the same thing, you'd only get whichever one is strongest as it would "overwrite" the others. Example, Bless gives a +1 moral bonus to hit. Inspire Courage (Bard ability) at 8th level gives a +2 moral bonus to hit and damage. If you were affected by both, you'd only have the +2 to hit (as its bigger than the +1 from Bless), and then you'd get the +2 to damage (as its the only one).
What type of bonus is the +1 point you recieve every 4 levels to 1 stat of your choice? I wanna make all my stats good if I have the resources for it, and then make my strength as strong as possible. Just for being able to roleplay throat-lifting an Ogre or two. That, and the general perks that comes with having all sorts of awe-inspiring bonuses pumping you up and making you strong.

No, it doesn't. You still use Dex to attack, so your Str has no bearing on the matter. If you had a +40 Str modifier, you'd still take a -4 to-hit penalty, and you'd still use Dex. Composite bows allow you to add a certain amount of Str to the damage, but the attack goes unaffected.
Oh. I see. I came over a case of the retarded when I was thinking about that. Dex for the chance to hit, and Str for the damage upon hitting. Still might keep a crossbow with me at lower levels, since my Dex Score isn't all that bad.

The MiC also has rules for combining items like that (super cheaply, I might add), but you're still not proficient as javelins are ranged-only.
Is that the thing that ffone tried to mention? The combination rule, anyway. Also, damn... think there's any way for me to get Gloves of Infinite Great-Swords, and just chuck them at people? .... 'cause that would be pimping.

Other than the fact that you can't afford that weapon, there's nothing wrong with it. I've used Flaming, Corrosive, Shocking Weapons of Frost in the past. It's really not that hard to imagine.
Then you sir, have a -very- good imagination. Or a nice deposit of crack-cocain.

Well, I would have just told you that there are no rules for it, which means that any rules you use to do so are technically Homebrew no matter how similar they are to other rules and no matter how much sense they make...but apparently I would've been wrong.
I now have the confusions.

This wouldn't be the first time that I've missed something, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen that rule in a book (or the SRD). Would you mind dropping a reference?
I second this request.

I'm getting too old.... where's my Mental Stat Boost!?! All I've got are Constitution Penalties! XD

Keld Denar

2011-04-12, 07:03 PM

Rules for upgrading magic items are in the MIC, page 233. It specifically gives the case of upgrading a +1 longsword to a +2 Vorpal longsword, stating that you simply subtract the two and pay the difference. Thats assuming you can find a person to craft it for you.

In addition to a dagger (which you have to draw), I'd suggest you get armor spikes. d6 vs d4 is a slight upgrade, plus you always have them available to you always threaten (and thus give flank) even if you are disarmed.

Level stat upgrades (the one every 4 levels) are untyped and stack with everything. The books (which are based on Wish) are an inherant bonus, and thus don't stack with other inherant bonuses. The boost you get from a Belt of Giant Str +6 is an enhancement bonus. It stacks with all of the above, but not with other enhancement bonuses (such as the Bull Str spell).

I think thats it for this round of questions...

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-13, 06:22 PM

Well Fudge... We aren't allowed to use Incarnum at all..... Someone has repressed memmories.

1)Where is the info for Armor Spikes as a Weapon? I know it's something I can add to Armor as a quality, but I can't seem to find where I use it to kill people.

2)Feat Questions: Can I make use of Storm Guard Warrior? "Fight the Hoard" sounds relatively useless, "Combat Rhythm" sounds like an interesting source of bonus damage (though less effective at higher levels when my devistating attacks are more likely to down foes quickly the first chance I get), and (assuming I'm reading it right) Channel the Storm is -freaking- -amazing-. Every Attack of Opportunity I -don't- take, I get +4 to my Attack Roll and Damage Roll against that target? More room for Power Attacking (with a little extra damage on the side)! Nice!

If that -doesn't- work (or that my understanding of it is wrong), I need to pick a 4th Warblade Bonus Feat still... and I need to use some of my spare main feat slots. I've got a total of 2 regular feats and 1 bonus feat. From where I remember, my following options are...

Improved Sunder + Combat Brute (+ Best-Remaining-Warblade-Bonus-Feat beside Quick Draw, Combat Reflexes, and Blind Fight), or [Insert Regular Feat Here] + Storm Guard Warrior (+ Iron Heart Aura). And then there's that Pierce Magical Protection / Concealment thing combo...

Are there any Maneuvers or Stances that could make Power Attacking easier, and that could be gained through Martial Study / Martial Stance? I pretty much go through all of the Diamond Mind an Iron Heart Line, yet I have no other style experience... Also, how would the Maneuver gained through Martial Study be refreshed as a Warblade?

3) Also, I have a weird idea in my head now.... Can Wonderous Items be upgraded to add the effects of another Wonderous Item / Special Effect? The Magic Item Compendium is where I need to look, right?

4) And since I -do- have proficiency with thrown melee weapons (it specifically says so), the Gloves of Infinite Javelins idea is back on the table. But what all can I apply to damage with Javelins? Magic Item Effects? Power Attack and Strength? Possibly even Maneuvers? Heh.. Power Attacked Diamond Nightmare Blade Javeline... that totally needs a better name.

5) I know I don't need to worry about fighting in long range, since the second I get into close range I win, but I got bored and ended up randomly googling things. Amoung the things I found was "Hank's Energy Bow". Is it even worth thinking about this Bow anymore? I wonder about Damage Feats and Maneuvers that might work with the Bow... Sounds like it would be cool...

6) The Insightful Line. Is it -just- a Concentration Check (d20 + Constitution Bonus + Concentration Ranks)? I suppose it allows me to fight somewhat defensively since it doesn't get stronger if I Power Attack myself to death.

7) Concentration is awesome because several strikes require good Concentration. I have to take enough ranks in Jump so I can Leap Attack and slaughter people, and then I could go around Leaping on People (maybe there's another Feat beyond Leap Attack for the purpose of damage?). High enough Tumble lets me freaking Teleport around people. But for some reason, I -wanted- to learn Balance. What use does Balance have? It's a key skill for the Iron Heart style, but what does that do? The Warblade Handbook says it's not useful after 5 ranks in it. If that's the case, then what would I use with that spare set of skill points I wouldn't need to use?

8) I was on an Animal Companion kick for a while.... think it's possible for me to make proper use out of Wild Cohort for it, even though (and it's this that made me stop considering it) both Ride and Handle Animal are Cross Class skills?

9) Still never answered me about making my Armor on Speed... heh. My Armor is on Speed. XD

10) And are you sure I can add the damage of my sword + Power Attack to Maneuvers that do additional Dice of Damage (or +100 points of damage, Strike of Perfect Clarity)? 6d6 + 60 + 100... Massive Damage is at 50 damage, isn't it? XD

11) While I'm thinking about Massive Damage, how does taking Constitution Damage from Mountain Tombstone Strike work? I do damage to the target, and I reduce it's max hp by a certain amount? Sounds painful.

12) I can't think of anything more off of the top of my head, so I should ask one last thing. I tried to make a thread about making some npcs... but it got no commenting.... What do I do? ;.;

13 *edit*) If I succeed on my Concentration Check for a strike using it (Gemerald Nightmare Blade Line, Specifically), but miss the Attack Roll, does the attack fail? Or does the Success of the Concentration Check make it an automatic hit?

14 *edit edit*) I was checking Unearthed Arcana's Variant Rules for Massive Damage, and I realised that something didn't make sense. Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blade -can't- simply increase the Power Attack Multiplier... it doesn't even mention Power Attack. It just says the melee attack does double / quadruple damage.... actually, it says "normal melee damage". Gosh Darn it.... -another- Leap Attack...

15 *edit edit edit*) I spent like 3 hours staring at this screen, trying to remember my question. I know that Master Work is the first step to an item gaining bonuses. It also makes the item a +1 item. Making an item +2; how does that work out without making it say a +2 Flaming Sword?

16) Are there any Feats or Weapon Upgrades that would increase the power of a Full Attack beyond Boots of Speed? I'm suddenly curious about how much damage I could choose to inflict to the BBEG with my Time Stands Still (although if I want to upgrade my damage, I'ma need to find another boost beyond the awesomeness of Quick Silver Motion).

Keld Denar

2011-04-14, 08:02 AM

You know, if you looked, you could probably answer most of these questions yourself...

1) Armor Spikes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm). Check the weapons table for all the associated info.

2) Stormguard is pretty good. The thing most people use it for is to Combat Rhythm away their lowest 1-2 iterative attacks, allowing them to PA for more on their primary and secondary attacks. Depending on how high the foe's AC is, this may result in more damage on a case-by-case basis. The other thing is Channeling The Storm, which is nearly always useful, especially with something like Robilar's Gambit to trigger more AoOs per round. Its better vs big single foes, something you can't drop in a round, than it is for something you can cleave through relatively easily. Then again, those generally aren't the foes you want to stand toe-to-toe and trade full attacks with.

As far as maneuvers that make PAing easier, other than Emerald Razor and a couple of Tiger Claw maneuvers that grant a bonus to hit, not really. And in reality, PAing with a strike is slightly dangerous, as a single miss results in the loss of all the other damage or status effects the strike would carry with it. If you have decent +hit, it can be worthwhile, though.

3) There are two ways to combine magic items. The DMG allows you to combine two items by paying 1.5x the cheaper to add it to the more expensive. MIC adjusted this rule, allowing you to add various basic stats to existing items with corresponding body slot affinity for just the additional cost without the multiplier. Example: You want to make a pair of Boots of Speed (12000g) that also have the ability of Anklets of Translocation (1400g). You'd pay 1.5x the cost of the Anklets (1400*1.5=2100) and add it to the cost of the Boots of Speed (12000+2100=14100g). A +enhancement bonus to Dex has a foot slot affinity (as well as a hand slot affinity), so you could make Boots of Speed of +2 Dex for 16000g (12000g boots + 4000g dex). You could even combine them all together for Boots of Speed and Translocation and +2 Dex for 18100g. Consult the DMG and the back of the MIC for more details.

4) Eh, by the level you can afford the Gloves of Infinite Javelins, their damage is going to be pretty crappy, and you also don't have THAT amazing of a range. Plus, then you still have the action cost of having to draw your primary melee weapon when your foes do actually get into melee range. You're better off probably spending cross-class ranks in UMD, getting a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) in your primary melee weapon, and using a Wand of Whirling Blade for ranged combat. And no, you can't execute any strikes published in the ToB with a ranged weapon (except Time Stands Still, the DM9 maneuver), and only 2 boosts (Dancing and Raging Mongoose). There are some homebrew ranged disciplines on this website, though, if you are interested in them. I wouldn't divide your character's focus that much though.

5) The Energy Bow is decent, but really expensive. The built in PA feature is pretty handy. Unfortunately, you'll still have to spend a feat on proficiency, and you'll still run into action economy issues swapping back and forth to the bow. I'd suggest skipping it.

6) Its just the Concentration check. You couldn't initiate Insightful Strike defensively since fighting defensively is a full round action and Insightful Strike is a standard action. Two different actions. The best way to get mileage out of Insightful Strike is to get a +Concentration item, like a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting or a Crystal Mask of Concentration (MIC). You could also take Skill Focus Concentration or get the Psicrystal that gives you a +3 to Concentration, assuming you can qualify for it (which you probably can't).

7) Balance has a few uses. You ALWAYS want at least 5 ranks in Balance. Go read the Grease spell. Its nasty. If you don't have at least 5 ranks in balance and you are "balancing", you lose your Dex bonus to AC. Uncanny Dodge won't help you here, and rogues will turn your kidneys into swiss cheese. I'd put in exactly as many ranks into it as you need to reach DC10 on a roll of 1 (so, a +9 mod). That makes you pretty much immune to Grease and similar effects. You won't automake the higher DC checks, but hopefully by then you'll be flying and it won't matter.

8) If you do take Wild Cohort, I'd probably focus on trying to get a riding mount, preferably a flying one. It'll probably be too far behind you in power to really be effective in combat, so stick to utility. You shouldn't need many ranks in Handle Animal to make your cohort do basic things like convey you. I'd honestly skip it, as its kinda a liability past about level 5, but its your character.

9) Armor of Speed is in the MIC. Google is your friend...

10) I wouldn't have told you so if I wasn't sure. If you'd like a second opinion, you are welcome to ask...and yes, if you use the massive damage rules, its at 50. That rule favors monsters though, as any rule that makes combat more deadly will eventually screw the player. Even if you kill 100 foes on a massive damage fort save, if you fail it even once, its not worth it. I'd recommend you ask your DM not to play with it, or make sure you take Steadfast Determination so you don't autofail the check on a 1.

11) HPs are adjusted in real time according to Con gain or loss. If you gain 2 points of Con, you gain 1x HD in additional HP. If you lose 2 points of Con, you lose 1x HD in HP. This isn't considered part of your "damage" though, WRT triggering a massive damage save. Its simply lost HP. DR doesn't negate it, though, because its not damage. The HP simply aren't there anymore. Check out the rules for Barbarian Rage for examples of how Con gain and loss is handled.

12) People don't mind helping some, but some people are lazy. If you say "I don't feel like doing X, can someone else do it for me?", you probably won't get much input. If you make a couple of skeleton builds and ask someone to critique them, you'll probably get a better response. Its YOUR project, YOU should do most of the work for it.

13) Read the maneuver. It says you need to make both the Concentration check AND the attack roll. If you fail the check for Ruby Nightmare, for example, then your attack is made at -4 and you don't get double damage. Its really as simple as reading comprehension...

14) Power Attack is part of normal melee damage, just like the damage you get from Str is, and the enhancement bonus on your weapon. Things that AREN'T normal melee damage are bonus dice like Sneak Attack, or the fire damage from your +1 Flaming sword. If you PA for 2, you'd get +4 damage, or +8 damage with Ruby Nightmare Strike.

15) Masterwork is required to enchant a weapon, yes, but a MW weapon only gives a +1 enhancement bonus to HIT. It doesn't actually make the weapon a +1 weapon. A MW weapon costs (base + 300g). A +1 weapon costs (base + 300g + 2000g), with the 2000g being the cost of a +1 enhancement. Since like bonuses don't stack, the +1 enhancement bonus to hit from a magic weapon doesn't stack with the +1 enhancement bonus to hit from a MW weapon. They overlap. What a +1 weapon DOES give you is a +1 to damage, and the weapon is considered magic for overcoming DR X/Magic and striking incorporial. You also need at least a +1 bonus on the weapon in order to add +equivalent bonuses. Thus, the minimum cost of a +1 flaming sword is at LEAST 8300g. The enhancement bonus to hit from MW will generally never come into play once a weapon is enchanted unless the weapon is Disjoined or you find yourself in a dead magic area.

16) I guess I don't know what you are refering to here. Anything that gives you more damage per hit will boost your full attack damage by X * Y, where X is the damage increase and Y is the number of attacks you have. Anything that gives you more attacks per round will increase your damage by X. Example, increasing your weapon from a +1 to a +2 gives you 1 extra damage per hit. So if you have 3 attacks per round, you'll get 3 extra damage per round (assuming all attacks hit). You can increase damage per hit directly with things like +Str, +damage, and similar, and you can increase it indirectly by boosting +hit to allow you to safely PA for more, or changing the attack type (like, targetting touch AC) which will also allow you to PA for more. Keep in mind, MOST increases to attacks/round do NOT stack. Haste does not stack with another Haste, Valiant Fury, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Snakes Swiftness, or a weapon of Speed. Things like Flurry of Strikes, Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, or such will work though. I guess it would help if you were clear here. Also, its generally wise to have a goal for how much damage you'd like to deal at any given ECL. "as much as possible" is generally NOT a good number to optimize for, as your DM will probably just counter with "it has more HP". To a certain degree, your DM knows the minimum number of rounds it will take to drop his BBEG, and trying to short-cut this number is kinda fruitless, and might earn you sanctions against the use of ToB or other source material. You can't win an arms race vs a DM, because while you are bound by the rules, he is not.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-14, 01:56 PM

You know, if you looked, you could probably answer most of these questions yourself...

I'm sorry for troubling so much. That -should- be the last set of questions, baring random responces, since most other issues are going to be things I should simply take up with my Dungeon Master.

1) Armor Spikes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm). Check the weapons table for all the associated info.

A) Would you believe me if I told you that I couldn't see Armor Spikes until I did a Control-F search for the word "Spike", and saw "-d Armor" added to it? ^_^;

2) Stormguard is pretty good. The thing most people use it for is to Combat Rhythm away their lowest 1-2 iterative attacks, allowing them to PA for more on their primary and secondary attacks. Depending on how high the foe's AC is, this may result in more damage on a case-by-case basis. The other thing is Channeling The Storm, which is nearly always useful, especially with something like Robilar's Gambit to trigger more AoOs per round. Its better vs big single foes, something you can't drop in a round, than it is for something you can cleave through relatively easily. Then again, those generally aren't the foes you want to stand toe-to-toe and trade full attacks with.

B) This is one of those stupid responce questions. If I had enough Dexterity, would I be able to use Robilar's Gambit to gain Attacks of Opportunity on every single hit of an enemy's full attack? As for putting myself in the line of fire with things I shouldn't, I'm really the only person in our party with the hit dice for it. "IF I DON'T, WHO WILL?

As far as maneuvers that make PAing easier, other than Emerald Razor and a couple of Tiger Claw maneuvers that grant a bonus to hit, not really. And in reality, PAing with a strike is slightly dangerous, as a single miss results in the loss of all the other damage or status effects the strike would carry with it. If you have decent +hit, it can be worthwhile, though.

Dangerous, but oh-so-satisfying when you've turned people into red mist. I suppose it's just a matter of being responcible with the damage I'm cranking out, vs the chance of the enemy hitting me for it.

3) There are two ways to combine magic items. The DMG allows you to combine two items by paying 1.5x the cheaper to add it to the more expensive. MIC adjusted this rule, allowing you to add various basic stats to existing items with corresponding body slot affinity for just the additional cost without the multiplier. Example: You want to make a pair of Boots of Speed (12000g) that also have the ability of Anklets of Translocation (1400g). You'd pay 1.5x the cost of the Anklets (1400*1.5=2100) and add it to the cost of the Boots of Speed (12000+2100=14100g). A +enhancement bonus to Dex has a foot slot affinity (as well as a hand slot affinity), so you could make Boots of Speed of +2 Dex for 16000g (12000g boots + 4000g dex). You could even combine them all together for Boots of Speed and Translocation and +2 Dex for 18100g. Consult the DMG and the back of the MIC for more details.

If only enhancement bonuses stacked.... ah well. I'll be sure to spend a couple of days reading the Magic Item Compendium properly. The Item Sets look interesting, to say the least.

4) Eh, by the level you can afford the Gloves of Infinite Javelins, their damage is going to be pretty crappy, and you also don't have THAT amazing of a range. Plus, then you still have the action cost of having to draw your primary melee weapon when your foes do actually get into melee range. You're better off probably spending cross-class ranks in UMD, getting a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) in your primary melee weapon, and using a Wand of Whirling Blade for ranged combat. And no, you can't execute any strikes published in the ToB with a ranged weapon (except Time Stands Still, the DM9 maneuver), and only 2 boosts (Dancing and Raging Mongoose). There are some homebrew ranged disciplines on this website, though, if you are interested in them. I wouldn't divide your character's focus that much though.

5) The Energy Bow is decent, but really expensive. The built in PA feature is pretty handy. Unfortunately, you'll still have to spend a feat on proficiency, and you'll still run into action economy issues swapping back and forth to the bow. I'd suggest skipping it.

Fine, fine. I'll stick to just slashing things to death. If a Force Bow requires too much work to use, then I don't see too much more helping me. Although a Bow of Force does sound cool....

6) Its just the Concentration check. You couldn't initiate Insightful Strike defensively since fighting defensively is a full round action and Insightful Strike is a standard action. Two different actions. The best way to get mileage out of Insightful Strike is to get a +Concentration item, like a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting or a Crystal Mask of Concentration (MIC). You could also take Skill Focus Concentration or get the Psicrystal that gives you a +3 to Concentration, assuming you can qualify for it (which you probably can't).

I didn't mean the fighting definsively action. I ment that, since the damage was independent of anything but my Concentration Check, I could have that turn be a turn that I'm not Power Attacking with an Armor Check of 0, allowing me to actually dodge attacks instead of simply tanking every hit while turning whatever's infront of me into sliced cheese.

7) Balance has a few uses. You ALWAYS want at least 5 ranks in Balance. Go read the Grease spell. Its nasty. If you don't have at least 5 ranks in balance and you are "balancing", you lose your Dex bonus to AC. Uncanny Dodge won't help you here, and rogues will turn your kidneys into swiss cheese. I'd put in exactly as many ranks into it as you need to reach DC10 on a roll of 1 (so, a +9 mod). That makes you pretty much immune to Grease and similar effects. You won't automake the higher DC checks, but hopefully by then you'll be flying and it won't matter.

8) If you do take Wild Cohort, I'd probably focus on trying to get a riding mount, preferably a flying one. It'll probably be too far behind you in power to really be effective in combat, so stick to utility. You shouldn't need many ranks in Handle Animal to make your cohort do basic things like convey you. I'd honestly skip it, as its kinda a liability past about level 5, but its your character.

C) How is it a liabilty for me past level 5? I've got the spare feat for it, and I indeed did intend to get something that could help fly me and the non-magic-types.... Need to get it magic items too, just to give it the strength to be able to ferry us. Although I have no intention to use it in a fight... baring picking up random mooks and droping them on eachother, I intend to do most of the killing.

9) Armor of Speed is in the MIC. Google is your friend...

Google is my friend, he says. Heh heh heh... (http://www.cracked.com/article_18540_5-reasons-you-should-be-scared-google.html) In all seriousness, I honestly tried to google D&D 3.5 Armor of Speed/Speed Upgrade to Armor, and several other variants. It did not want to give it to me. At all. I apparently epically fail.

10) I wouldn't have told you so if I wasn't sure. If you'd like a second opinion, you are welcome to ask...and yes, if you use the massive damage rules, its at 50. That rule favors monsters though, as any rule that makes combat more deadly will eventually screw the player. Even if you kill 100 foes on a massive damage fort save, if you fail it even once, its not worth it. I'd recommend you ask your DM not to play with it, or make sure you take Steadfast Determination so you don't autofail the check on a 1.

I didn't mean to sound like I was second guessing you. You don't second guess the people that know what they're doing. And you my friend, definitely know what you're doing. I'm just sorta shocked about the potential murder power I have. And I don't think we're doing Massive Damage. It's too much of a kill steal for targets to go into shock and die because they lost a limb and the rest of them is still perfectly functioning and capable of being cut apart. I personally vetoed Massive Damage.

11) HPs are adjusted in real time according to Con gain or loss. If you gain 2 points of Con, you gain 1x HD in additional HP. If you lose 2 points of Con, you lose 1x HD in HP. This isn't considered part of your "damage" though, WRT triggering a massive damage save. Its simply lost HP. DR doesn't negate it, though, because its not damage. The HP simply aren't there anymore. Check out the rules for Barbarian Rage for examples of how Con gain and loss is handled.

D) So, to clerify, at least about Constitution loss... say I rolled max on my Mountain Tombstone Strike, and knocked away 12 Constitution. The target would have his max hp reduced by 6 for every level / hit-dice? And that reduction is completely independent of the hp lost by the target getting a limb chopped off. While I'm looking at this comment, what's WRT?

12) People don't mind helping some, but some people are lazy. If you say "I don't feel like doing X, can someone else do it for me?", you probably won't get much input. If you make a couple of skeleton builds and ask someone to critique them, you'll probably get a better response. Its YOUR project, YOU should do most of the work for it.

Ah. I suppose I should change the post a bit then. ^_^;

I don't wanna sound like I'm being lazy. I've no problem putting the work into something I'm interested in. It's simply that I don't know where to begin.

13) Read the maneuver. It says you need to make both the Concentration check AND the attack roll. If you fail the check for Ruby Nightmare, for example, then your attack is made at -4 and you don't get double damage. Its really as simple as reading comprehension...

That's just me making absolutely sure I know what I'm working with. Although my reading comprehension -does- need a bit of work....

14) Power Attack is part of normal melee damage, just like the damage you get from Str is, and the enhancement bonus on your weapon. Things that AREN'T normal melee damage are bonus dice like Sneak Attack, or the fire damage from your +1 Flaming sword. If you PA for 2, you'd get +4 damage, or +8 damage with Ruby Nightmare Strike.

Heh. I suddenly feel -much- more vicious. And I think that solved another question I had, too.

15) Masterwork is required to enchant a weapon, yes, but a MW weapon only gives a +1 enhancement bonus to HIT. It doesn't actually make the weapon a +1 weapon. A MW weapon costs (base + 300g). A +1 weapon costs (base + 300g + 2000g), with the 2000g being the cost of a +1 enhancement. Since like bonuses don't stack, the +1 enhancement bonus to hit from a magic weapon doesn't stack with the +1 enhancement bonus to hit from a MW weapon. They overlap. What a +1 weapon DOES give you is a +1 to damage, and the weapon is considered magic for overcoming DR X/Magic and striking incorporial. You also need at least a +1 bonus on the weapon in order to add +equivalent bonuses. Thus, the minimum cost of a +1 flaming sword is at LEAST 8300g. The enhancement bonus to hit from MW will generally never come into play once a weapon is enchanted unless the weapon is Disjoined or you find yourself in a dead magic area.

E) So, for the earlier Transmuting Weapon I wanted to make, I have to have it crafted as a Master Work Weapon, then Enchanted to be a +3 Weapon, and then have the Transmuting Quality Applied... or have the spell caster apply all of that at once for a pretty penny.

16) I guess I don't know what you are refering to here. Anything that gives you more damage per hit will boost your full attack damage by X * Y, where X is the damage increase and Y is the number of attacks you have. Anything that gives you more attacks per round will increase your damage by X. Example, increasing your weapon from a +1 to a +2 gives you 1 extra damage per hit. So if you have 3 attacks per round, you'll get 3 extra damage per round (assuming all attacks hit). You can increase damage per hit directly with things like +Str, +damage, and similar, and you can increase it indirectly by boosting +hit to allow you to safely PA for more, or changing the attack type (like, targetting touch AC) which will also allow you to PA for more. Keep in mind, MOST increases to attacks/round do NOT stack. Haste does not stack with another Haste, Valiant Fury, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Snakes Swiftness, or a weapon of Speed. Things like Flurry of Strikes, Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, or such will work though. I guess it would help if you were clear here. Also, its generally wise to have a goal for how much damage you'd like to deal at any given ECL. "as much as possible" is generally NOT a good number to optimize for, as your DM will probably just counter with "it has more HP". To a certain degree, your DM knows the minimum number of rounds it will take to drop his BBEG, and trying to short-cut this number is kinda fruitless, and might earn you sanctions against the use of ToB or other source material. You can't win an arms race vs a DM, because while you are bound by the rules, he is not.

I'm pretty sure a lot of issues with my posting come about because I post way too late at night for my own good. I was looking for more hits. Increasing the number of attacks I could perform during a full attack. Mainly to pretend to Omnislash. But I suppose 8 is enough, and I don't need to make the attacks any stronger than I've already made them, less I get the book thrown at me for it.

I suppose I think I've got almost everything (baring the things that I've lettered, rather than numbered this post) figured out. Plenty strong, maneuverable, and with a better knowledge of my own abilities. Just gotta work on my other thread (preferably with a little rest and planning to enable it to be done properly), and my current set of D&D games with my groups of friends will be all but set (probably would help a bit for me to not try to be both a DM in one circle of friends and a Player within another, with only a couple of games of experience between the two).

herrhauptmann

2011-04-14, 09:40 PM

WRT should be White Raven Tactics. And yes, you reduce your enemies Con by 12, he's going to lose 6HP per level or racial HD. You'll also reduce his con score and concentration skill. Plus a few other minor things. (Avoid doing it to a spellfire channeler)

Mounts can be liabilities past level 5 because they become so fragile compared to the attack bonus and damage potential of the monsters. Beefing up their armor, or giving them magic items just sucks away your character wealth shoring up a weakness you gave yourself, rather than going to make your character actually better. The best mounts are those that improve themselves as you level. But even then, it usually takes a specialized build to find enough stacking things to make your mount good.
Picking things up and dropping them, that'd be a grapple check. If your mount doesn't have improved grapple/grab, or something similar, he's going to take an AOO for attempting it. Nevermind the question of him being able to fly while holding a monster in his claws.

Builds for editing.
Generally you start with saying I'm level X, and what to do Y. Show the list of allowed books, and any houserules.
Now, you list your basic build. For yours, perhaps half giant fighter 2, warblade 10, for a level 13 character.
List the feats you need (prereqs), and the ones you want, and the ones you're curious about.
List items you'd like, things you're thinking of buying.

List your questions. How feats/abilites/items interact. A common one is the interaction between Steadfast boots, a reach weapon, and a person with combat reflexes.
Here's an example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132050)

Lyndworm

2011-04-14, 09:52 PM

WRT should be White Raven Tactics.
I'm pretty sure that Keld meant "With Regards To." I could be wrong, but given the context that makes much more sense to me.

Keld Denar

2011-04-14, 10:03 PM

Yea, I ment with regards to. White Raven Tactics would not have made sense in that context...

herrhauptmann

2011-04-14, 10:23 PM

Yea, I ment with regards to. White Raven Tactics would not have made sense in that context...

Made sense to me (sorta), you were discussing ToB strikes that reduce Con. I know W.R.Tactics doesn't do that, but it might've been part of a combination I don't know. (Very limited knowledge of ToB.)

Still, it's better than my first calc class. Teacher wrote "s.t." regularly, and even said "S-T" during his lectures. Took us a month to realize he meant "Such that." And yes, we asked regularly.:smallmad:

Keld Denar

2011-04-15, 12:00 AM

Well, C was pretty much answered, and A isn't really a questions, so...

B) Yes. If you have enough Dex, you can forgo that many AoOs plus 1, and get the huge bonus on your next round. Hopefully the extra 20 or so damage you take from Robilar's Gambit doesn't kill you before you can counter attack...

E) You're still missing it a little. +equivalents are added INSTEAD of enhancement bonuses. So a +1 Transmuting weapon costs the exact same as a +3 weapon, since Transmuting is a +2 equiv. You don't need to have the +2 enhancement bonus on the weapon in order to add Transmuting, just the +1 minimum. You could have a +1 Holy Transmuting Wounding Collision Viscious (+10 total, +1 base with +9 worth of equivalents). A +3 Transmuting weapon costs the same as a +5 weapon, or 50,000g (plus base and masterwork costs). You ONLY need one single +1 on the weapon before you start stacking other enchants on, regardless of how much those bonuses are worth. If you have a caster in your party who will lend you a Greater Magic Weapon spell, it's generally best to focus on getting +equivalent effects rather than basic +enhancement bonuses, since the GMW spell will overlap and supercede the bonus, assuming its higher. That means that if you get a +1 weapon with +9 worth of other crap, and THEN the caster gives you a CL20 GMW, you are wielding the equivalent of a +14 weapon, which is kinda fun. Its not REALLY a +14 weapon, but it behaves like one.

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-17, 11:43 PM

Keld Denar

2011-04-18, 12:11 AM

Like...the rules for Crafting Magic Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons)?

And no, you can't. Adamantine Hurricane (and Mithril Tornado, but not Steel Wind) explicitly states adjacent foes only. Either the devs had a brain fart and forget that people can have reach weapons (not to mention reach increases due to size increase!), or it was done this way as a balance reason. Given that attacking multiple foes a little vs attacking one foe to death is a poor tactic, it wouldn't be a bad houserule to allow Adamantine Hurricane to function vs all foes you can reach.

herrhauptmann

2011-04-18, 01:13 AM

I can't seem to find any single solitary feat, or any one feat that combos with what I've got so far, that would make me any stronger than I already am. And since we lack a teleporter in our group, a Giant Bird might be what the group needs, and I'm willing to make the sacrifice for it. Even if it does nothing else other than fly us places. I'll just have to kill more, and call for it only when the Battle is over. Although it's still not a finality.

I also -think- I finally get the Magic Enhancement stuff, but just to be certain, where would I need to go to read up on it? I've spent a few days trying to look for it, but can't find it. ;.;

Just keep rereading the DMG section of the magic items. It'll eventually make sense. The MiC, has an updated method of item pricing, but I'm not sure if it explains the rules for items any better than the DMG.

How about at this point, you post what your build is? Though there is Shadow Jaunt from Shadowhand discipline. Gives you a 50ft teleport though it requires line of sight and effect. With ingenuity you can use it to help the party out of combat.

ubergeek63

2011-04-18, 05:53 AM

I can't seem to find any single solitary feat, or any one feat that combos with what I've got so far, that would make me any stronger than I already am. And since we lack a teleporter in our group, a Giant Bird might be what the group needs, and I'm willing to make the sacrifice for it. Even if it does nothing else other than fly us places. I'll just have to kill more, and call for it only when the Battle is over. Although it's still not a finality.

I also -think- I finally get the Magic Enhancement stuff, but just to be certain, where would I need to go to read up on it? I've spent a few days trying to look for it, but can't find it. ;.;

I've also spent a few more days reading in general. I might make a few more threads, and update the one about the bonus boss in one of the games I'm in, but I think I've got a finalized idea of what and how I'm going to be fighting with my Warblade. I only have -1- more new question:

Can I use Adamantine Hurricane + Dancing Blade Form?

If you have the money for a +4 weapon get a +1 resounding vampiric sword.

if you have a caster to enlarge you, you gain reach and can potentially do +10d6 to their two front lines while healing 10d6 and giving your party +10 to hit for the round. :smallsmile:

or as in the case of my party, my character is sacrificing attack feats for creation feats, so when we are done with our current dungeon, i expect our mithril monkey to ask for just that!

AnonymousD&Der

2011-04-22, 12:10 AM

Been a while since I had posted. Life sure is fun, isn't it?

Like...the rules for Crafting Magic Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons)?
You're either enjoying this -far- more than you should, or you're probably very annoyed with me. Either way, I'm glad I checked that link. Took a bit of work, but I found where it lies in the DMG (which I should really read more), and I really do finally think I understand it now. Thanks.

And no, you can't. Adamantine Hurricane (and Mithril Tornado, but not Steel Wind) explicitly states adjacent foes only. Either the devs had a brain fart and forget that people can have reach weapons (not to mention reach increases due to size increase!), or it was done this way as a balance reason. Given that attacking multiple foes a little vs attacking one foe to death is a poor tactic, it wouldn't be a bad houserule to allow Adamantine Hurricane to function vs all foes you can reach.
Something in the wording for Mithral Tornado / Adamantine Hurricane states that you make melee attacks at adjacent opponents you threaten. The threaten part is the key word that the DM notes for it, not the adjacent part, despite the emphasis placed on adjacent. In otherwords, Cleave can go suck it: I'm a Whirlpool of Blades! Sucks that I can't use a Swift Action to refresh Adamantine Hurricane on the same turn that I use it. I'd be a walking blender... :smallamused:

Just keep rereading the DMG section of the magic items. It'll eventually make sense. The MiC, has an updated method of item pricing, but I'm not sure if it explains the rules for items any better than the DMG.
Gotta refind my copy of the MIC. Everything got shifted around in the move....

How about at this point, you post what your build is? Though there is Shadow Jaunt from Shadowhand discipline. Gives you a 50ft teleport though it requires line of sight and effect. With ingenuity you can use it to help the party out of combat.
I'll post my build at the end of this quote. I don't think Warblades get easy access to Shadow Jaunt, and I'm forbidden from Multiclassing...

If you have the money for a +4 weapon get a +1 resounding vampiric sword.
if you have a caster to enlarge you, you gain reach and can potentially do +10d6 to their two front lines while healing 10d6 and giving your party +10 to hit for the round. :smallsmile:
or as in the case of my party, my character is sacrificing attack feats for creation feats, so when we are done with our current dungeon, i expect our mithril monkey to ask for just that!
Meh. I don't see myself having the mental fortitude for creating things. We'll just put our requests into the gm's item construction npc, and I'll kill him if he doesn't give me what I want.
And a vampiric sword sounds nice, but I don't see where you get +10d6 damage and healing, and +10 to hit. Probably something stupid I'm forgetting...
Without further to do, factoring that I'm a Chaotic Good/Neutral Full Human Warblade,
Level|Move Level|Gain|Lose|Stance|Feats (Bonus)
1|1st|Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind|-|Punishing Stance|Power Attack, (Reckless Attack)
2|1st|Steely Strike|-|-|-
3|2nd|Emerald Razor|-|-|Exotic Weapon Proficiency
4|2nd|Wall of Blades|Steely Strike|-|-
5|3rd|Iron Heart Surge|-|-|(Combat Reflexes)
6|3rd|Insightful Strike|Sapphire Nightmare Blade|Absolute Steel|Monster Slayer
7|4th|Bounding Assault|-|-|-
8|4th|Mithral Tornado|Steel Wind|-|-
9|5th|Rapid Counter|-|-|Leap Attack, (Blind Fight)
10|5th|Ruby Nightmare Blade|Emerald Razor|-|-
11|6th|Moment of Alacrity|-|Dancing Blade Form|-
12|6th|Greater Insightful Strike|Insightful Strike|-|Robilar's Gambit
13|7th|Finishing Move|-|-|(Iron Heart Aura)
14|7th|Quicksilver Motion|Bounding Assault|-|-
15|8th|Lightning Throw|-|-|Either Wild Cohort or Stormguard Warrior
16|8th|Adamantine Hurricane|Mithral Tornado|Stance of Alacrity|-
17|9th|Time Stands Still (or Strike of Perfect Clarity. Depends on how well the rest of my team is doing)|-|-|(Quick Draw)
18|9th|Diamond Nightmare Blade|Ruby Nightmare Blade|-|Which ever wasn't taken at level 15.
19|9th|Mountain Tombstone Strike|-|-|-
20|9th|Strike of Perfect Clarity (or Time Stands Still. Again, depends on how good my allies are)|Finishing Move|-|-