[3.5] Going past Mysic Theurge 10 for good characters?

[gomipile]

Is there a decent dual progression class for a good aligned Archivist 1/Wizard2/Mystic Theurge 10 to progress in after ECL 13? The only decent arcane+divine dual progression classes I've seen other than MT require druid abilities or nongood alignment.

[Keld Denar]

Not really. You've discovered one of the major flaws of MT. There really aren't a whole lot of places to go after 10/10.

You can debatably kinda fake it with Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion, depending on how you read their abilities, but otherwise there really aren't any good options.

You pretty much are forced to go back into one or the other of the base classes, take a PrC that advances only one of the base classes, or...nope, thats about it.

[Thurbane]

Not exactly what you're after, but you could go Archivist 1/Wizard 2/MT 9/Anima Mage 8 (will require 2 binding feats). You'll get Wiz 19 casting, Archivist 10 casting, and 8th level Binding...basically, you'll be an almost full strength Wizard with some Divine casting and Binding to back it up.

Other than that, yeah, Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster are the only options I can think of...

[Goonthegoof]

Ask your DM to let you go past 10? I mean it's not that unreasonable.

[Curmudgeon]

Ask your DM to let you go past 10? I mean it's not that unreasonable.
You can go past 10 in Mystic Theurge, and you don't have to ask your DM; that's already provided for in the rules. You just have to be Epic, and you have to be completely nuts. Check out the Epic Mystic Theurge here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicMysticTheurge) and you'll see why that's probably weaker than anything you could pick by throwing darts at a list of D&D prestige classes.

[Leon]

Pick up a level or 2 of Druid and rock on with Arcane Hirophant

[Feytalist]

Pick up a level or 2 of Druid and rock on with Arcane Hirophant

That's technically doable, as the spells description just says "+1 level of divine spells" or similar. It doesn't explicitly say "nature-based divine casting class", unless I am mightily mistaken. The game just assumes that the caster class you have is natural spell based. It's a rule bend, but not an extreme one.

In fact, they talk about just this in some detail here. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868490/The_Arcane_Hierophant_Examined)

[Tyndmyr]

Epic mystic theurge is like alternating between taking levels in both base classes.

And not actually progressing anything else from those classes. Yeah, it's pretty terrible.

Pathfinder has another core arcane/divine theurge class. It's a solid choice. Alternatively, ask your DM if you can just keep taking MT levels beyond the limit. It's not a crazy extension.

But yeah, Legacy Champion would be my usual route by straight RAW.

[Telonius]

Well, you could go Bard1 (or Loremaster2), Rogue2 or Monk2, then Fochlucan Lyrist. You'd end up a couple caster levels down, and the skill requirements are pretty dire, but you can progress both your Archivist and Wizard levels. You can qualify with a NG alignment. The only snag would be Speak Language (Druidic), which your DM might not allow. (There are ways to get around this, fluff-wise; but they'd mainly involve doing things like using Dominate Person to force a Druid to teach it to you, or disguising yourself as a Druid initiate, that kind of thing).

[flabort]

How do you get archivist 1/wizard 2 as minimum requirements?
Unless having a level in archivist means you effectively have wizard 3, you'd still need another wizard level to make the "Cast 2nd-level arcane spells" requirement, far as I know. And I don't think... unless again, having both wizard and archivist means they already advance each other a little before hand, I doubt a single level in a class will give you 2nd level spells. If it does... :smalleek:

Sure, I'm a noob, but could somebody explain why the minimum isn't more along the lines of Archivist (3 or 4)/Wizard 3? because unless I miss my mark, you're missing prereqs into mystic theurge.

[dextercorvia]

The full list is fairly exhaustive, but it usually involves one or more of the following:

Sanctum Spell
Earth Spell
Verstatile Spellcaster+Heighten
Midnight Metamagic+Heighten
Improved Krau Sigil
Precocious Apprentice

[Flickerdart]

Sanctum Spell, probably. It makes your spells count as 1 level higher. The second Wizard level is presumably to fulfill the skill requirements.

[Telonius]

How do you get archivist 1/wizard 2 as minimum requirements?
Unless having a level in archivist means you effectively have wizard 3, you'd still need another wizard level to make the "Cast 2nd-level arcane spells" requirement, far as I know. And I don't think... unless again, having both wizard and archivist means they already advance each other a little before hand, I doubt a single level in a class will give you 2nd level spells. If it does... :smalleek:

Sure, I'm a noob, but could somebody explain why the minimum isn't more along the lines of Archivist (3 or 4)/Wizard 3? because unless I miss my mark, you're missing prereqs into mystic theurge.

It's a bit cheesy, but Wizard1 with Precocious Apprentice gains access to a second-level spell. Choose Air Walk (or some other similar domain-granted spell) as the spell. Air Walk is both a second-level Arcane spell and a second-level Divine spell. (Ninja'd).

[Flickerdart]

It's a bit cheesy, but Wizard1 with Precocious Apprentice gains access to a second-level spell. Choose Air Walk (or some other similar domain-granted spell) as the spell. Air Walk is both a second-level Arcane spell and a second-level Divine spell. (Ninja'd).
Nope. Wizards cast spells as Arcane spells - their Air Walk is only Arcane.

[Thefurmonger]

Nope. Wizards cast spells as Arcane spells - their Air Walk is only Arcane.

Ding, Ding, you win one free internet.

It's crazy how often I see this put up as a loophole.

[The Cat Goddess]

There are a couple of PrCs out there that advance "+1 level of existing spellcasting class"... Paragnostic Apostle is one, if I remember right. Geomancer also does this, and starts letting you do some tricks with spellcasting... while making you look like a beast-man.

Yeah, it won't advance both at the same time... but it will advance either one of them, as you choose.

Personally, I've always thought that MT should be a 15 level PrC and should be more like the Pathfinder version.

[Tvtyrant]

Go Wizard 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer10/MT 10 for 9s on both sides, though mysteries are weaker than spells and it doesn't get very many. On the otherhand with feat management you can get Time Stop as a Shadowcaster up to 8 times a day and for longer than a Wizard.

[SurlySeraph]

Arcane Hierophant is an excellent Wizard/ Druid dual progression class. By taking Bamboo Spirit Folk (which gets Trackless Step as a racial ability), Druid-less entry is possible. However, I don't know of any easy way to get Trackless Step other than race.

There's also Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2), which has full arcane and divine progression, full BAB, 6+Int skill points, and good Will and Reflex saves. Its entry requirements were carefully engineered to make optimizers cry.

[flabort]

Thanks!
Now that I know about precocious apprentice, I see it could be applied to other arcane casters as well. So it doesn't necessarily have to be wizard... :smallamused:
I know, wizard is usually best, but....

[dextercorvia]

Thanks!
Now that I know about precocious apprentice, I see it could be applied to other arcane casters as well. So it doesn't necessarily have to be wizard... :smallamused:
I know, wizard is usually best, but....

Precocious is one of the worst early entry tricks. It only works on one class (despite what the other poster claimed). It is a waste of a feat slot later on. Sanctum has so many other broken applications, like wands of 5th level spells, or NI spell slots, or metamagic reduction via Arcane Thesis.

[Cage89]

High Mage is usually a fun progression

[Flickerdart]

There's also Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2), which has full arcane and divine progression, full BAB, 6+Int skill points, and good Will and Reflex saves. Its entry requirements were carefully engineered to make optimizers cry.
Bard 2/Druid 1 with a Ring of Evasion gets you the class features you need, or Bard 1/Druid 1/Wizard 1 if you want to go for the gold. Use Human and Able Learner to take care of the skills. Then Sanctum Spell gets you into MT, and you go Bard 1/Druid 1/Wizard 1/MT 7/Fochluchan Lyrist 10, ending with 18th level casting in both classes. Staple Arcane Hierophant on as needed.

[Retech]

Take levels in Pathfinder's Mystic Theurge, so you can be...

Archivist 1/Wizard 2/3.5 Mystic Theurge 10/Pathfinder Mystic Theurge X

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What is this other duel progression Pathfinder class which you speak of?

[vampire2948]

Convince your DM to let you learn Druidic, take Cloistered Cleric as your divine side, and burn a feat on Shape Soulmeld for the boots that give you Evasion - Then go for Fochlucan Lyricist.

Progresses like Mystic Theurge, 'cept you get Bardic Music aswell.