Incarnate/Totemist Gestalt - Any synergy?

[Kittenwolf]

Hey all.
Looking at playing an Incarnate in a lowish (1-10) level Evil Gestalt campaign where Arcane (and possibly Divine) magic doesn't work due to a magical bomb.
I was originally going to go Incarnate/Soulknife, but since Incarnate gets the Incarnate weapon thing anyway I figured there wasn't a lot of point (not interested in dual-wielding), and Totemist/Soulknife would likewise be silly since one concentrates on the mind blade and the other on natural weapons.

Then I thought hey, why not just be a font of massive amounts of Incarnum?
Now this may be an utterly stupid idea, can someone with more Incarnum knowledge than me advise if this could actually work? I'm wanting a tank/melee style build.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If anything, there is negative synergy as you only have so many chakra binds between your Totemist and Incarnate binds and then your magic items after that.

For similar feel, I would recommend going either Totemist or Incarnate and then use Binder on the opposite side of the gestalt.

[Darth Stabber]

If you wanted to go incarnate//soulknife you could use necrocarnum weapon to get a combo that actually works, and is pretty decent. I really like this idea. That being said, despite being totemist's official gestalt spokesman, I have no clue how that would actually work. You would have a metric ton of essentia, melds and a big batch of binds. You could do a lot of things, but tanking seems a bit out of your depth.

But I second the idea of incarnate or totemist//binder as better alternative.

[MeeposFire]

You will have a ton of essentia.

Unfortunately you will need to spend a lot of feats just to be able to put multiple soulmelds on the same places. On the plus side you will have some time since you will have room for all the binds and soulmelds for a little while. Eventually though you will need to use feets for multplie melds, binds, and items in the same spots.

[Kittenwolf]

I did briefly consider Binder, I may have a closer look at it, but I don't remember being really interested in it for this character.

How nasty would the # of soulbinds vs being able to completely fill them all work out? The campaign isn't designed to be high-powered (in spite of being Gestalt) and we'll likely be using the "If you're a T1/T2 character, no Gestalt for you" balancing equation.

Otherwise, can anyone suggest a good base-class to gestalt with that isn't Binder and isn't based around limited-use-per-day resources (like spells). For flavour reasons I want this guy to be able to just keep going all day (or longer) without losing power :D

[MeeposFire]

Any TOB class would work wonders but I would agree binder works on many levels and are awesome.

[candycorn]

I'd prefer Swordsage, myself. Decent Wisdom synergy, nice pseudo-arcane maneuvers.

[Zaq]

I'd prefer Swordsage, myself. Decent Wisdom synergy, nice pseudo-arcane maneuvers.

The Incarnate isn't WIS-based. OK, they have two or three effects that are based on WIS, but honestly, if your soulmelds are giving your enemies saving throws, you probably need new soulmelds.

Anyway, I've played a multiclass Binder/Incarnate, and he was my favorite character I've ever played. I can only imagine how much more awesome he'd be in Gestalt. The ability to truly reinvent yourself every day . . . it's glorious.

[Kittenwolf]

Hrm. Just had a chance to have a quick read over the Incarnum book.. and honestly I can't see where the issue is with # of soulmelds from doubling the classes (though admittedly it may just be lack of knowledge about Incarnum). Near as I can see I'd have enough space for all the Soulmelds, at least in the 1-10 campaign that would be involved, and the Essential to pretty much max out everything.

What am I missing?

[Darth Stabber]

After going over a lot of things, I can say you would be better off with a fighter//totemist than an incarnate//totemist. The double dose of incarnum is just not that good. Incarnum is great for 1 side of a gestalt build, but both sides, not as good. You need the opposite side to use actions, since incarnum doesn't. Incarnate//Crusader sounds like you could actually pull off your goal of tanking. Warblade//totemist is less tanky, more killy.

[mootoall]

I second (third? Fourth, even?) ToB and Totemist. Crusader might be your best choice, to use all of your maneuvers up on a huge natural attack routine and get them all back next turn.

[Darth Stabber]

The key to D&D is action economy. Gestalt doubly so. The key to a good gestalt character is having one side with abilities that use your standard action, and another side that does not (ie passive abilities). Monk//cleric works because you are under no illusions about flurrying, you go into monk for passive abilities, speed saves armor, ect. The cleric side is where your standard actions are being spent. A fighter//swordsage is using his swordsage manuevers as his primary combat actions, the fighter side is for 4 things: bab, fort save hit die and bonus feats. Classes with abilities on actions other than standard, or no action what so ever are gold in gestalt. Totemist and incarnate are both passive classes, therby taking away spells/manuevers/ect that your build would otherwise have that would generally be better than a standard attack.

Also the "added utility" of 2 meldshaping classes would not add up as fast as you would think. You may have 5 soulmelds at level 1, but you are still working under the same essentia cap. You may have a ton of essentia, but given that your cap is unchanged and you don't need full essentia in most of your melds the vast majority of the time, and its are split between 2 sets of melds, you are not getting the efficiencies you tink you are. Finally the totemist meldlist is good enough for totemist and there are very few things on the incarnate list it would need, and vice versa.

Other good incarnum combos
Incarnate//rogue - skill monkey extrodinaire
Totemist//barbarian - the only way to be illiterate in gestalt.
Incarnate//cleric - great combo, only way the azurin substitution levels are ever worth it.
Totemist//druid - turning into monster while still having you melds up is just wonderful.

[Keld Denar]

Soulknife//Totemist actually isn't that bad. I'm pretty sure you can get the ability to manifest and dismiss your mindblade as a free action, right? The way the rules for natural attacks work, you could actually make a full attack with your mindblade, dismiss it, make all of your natural attacks as secondary natural attacks, and then remanifest your mindblade so you have it available to make AoOs and whatnots. Holding a real weapon in your hands prevents you from making attacks with that natural weapon, but if your mindblade isn't in your hands when its claw time, it doesn't inhibit them.

Plus, I have these cool images of a rather feral looking dude, whirling, spinning, clawing, and slashing, an ephemeral looking blade springing from his grasp and then melting away intermittenly. Watching him battle someone in a mostly dark room would be like watching someone dancing in a strobe light.

[Quietus]

Plus, I have these cool images of a rather feral looking dude, whirling, spinning, clawing, and slashing, an ephemeral looking blade springing from his grasp and then melting away intermittenly. Watching him battle someone in a mostly dark room would be like watching someone dancing in a strobe light.

I approve heartily. Come to my neck of the woods and play this character. :smalltongue:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Soulknife//Totemist actually isn't that bad. I'm pretty sure you can get the ability to manifest and dismiss your mindblade as a free action, right? The way the rules for natural attacks work, you could actually make a full attack with your mindblade, dismiss it, make all of your natural attacks as secondary natural attacks, and then remanifest your mindblade so you have it available to make AoOs and whatnots. Holding a real weapon in your hands prevents you from making attacks with that natural weapon, but if your mindblade isn't in your hands when its claw time, it doesn't inhibit them.

Plus, I have these cool images of a rather feral looking dude, whirling, spinning, clawing, and slashing, an ephemeral looking blade springing from his grasp and then melting away intermittenly. Watching him battle someone in a mostly dark room would be like watching someone dancing in a strobe light.

Keld, I keep looking at your posts and can only imagine who you really are. From Fax's remarks in your signature to your spot-on reimagining of the Old Spice guy as a wizard to this crazy rave-going soulknife//totemist. Truly, you are the USSR of these boards: a riddle inside of an enigma inside of a walnut inside of a ... wait.:smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

Man, you guys flatter me too much. I'm just a normal guy who haunts these boards more often than I probably should. Sometimes people laugh, more often than not, I put my foot in my mouth...

[Lans]

Their is synergy in an Incanate/Totemist gestalt.
1 You get a damage/hit boost to your claws/tailspikes/ or what ever.
2 Skills- A totemist has like a gazillion binds that give a boost to hide/move silenntly. How ever they all give competence bonuses so it caps out at 16ish .Incarnate mostly gives insight bonuses that can stack for another another 14pts Mixing a scout class with this would work pretty decently. Rogue1/Incarnate9//Totemist10

3 Various abilities-Mantle of Flame, Pet Zombie, DR, SR.

[VirOath]

Well, if Incarnate is the path you're going then I'm going to toss out my standard answer to Gestalt, Factotum it up. Int to -everything- as class features and all skills, even if the false-spellcasting doesn't work it's still a good class.

Incarnate/Warblade would also be good.

[Kittenwolf]

While Crusader does match the thematic idea quite well, I'm unsure if the GM will allow it, since that GM's opinion of ToB is rather tainted by my "WTF??" opinion of them (gained after having a high level swordsage in my last campaign rip the living daylights out of everything that wasn't a very highly optimised and specialised spellcaster, and then me making a Warblade boss that dropped at least one PC a round).

We're also planning to do the "Gestalt Balancing" equation, ie:
Tier 1-2 don't get to Gestalt (but Divine & Arcane magic doesn't work anyway in this area, so it's more "Psions don't get to Gestalt")
Tier 3 can gestalt with Tier 6
Tier 4-5 can gestalt with Tier 4-6

Since the Incnarnum classes (that aren't Soulborn) are generally considered high end 4/low end 3, and ToB classes are a solid T3, it'd probably be a bit strong.

Oh, and the strobe light raver Totemist/Soulknife does sound hilarious (need to find monsters that give off black light ;) ) we're going to be running with a very strong Cheese-filter and that would definitely trigger it :D

[Darth Stabber]

Soulknife//Totemist actually isn't that bad. I'm pretty sure you can get the ability to manifest and dismiss your mindblade as a free action, right? The way the rules for natural attacks work, you could actually make a full attack with your mindblade, dismiss it, make all of your natural attacks as secondary natural attacks, and then remanifest your mindblade so you have it available to make AoOs and whatnots. Holding a real weapon in your hands prevents you from making attacks with that natural weapon, but if your mindblade isn't in your hands when its claw time, it doesn't inhibit them.

Plus, I have these cool images of a rather feral looking dude, whirling, spinning, clawing, and slashing, an ephemeral looking blade springing from his grasp and then melting away intermittenly. Watching him battle someone in a mostly dark room would be like watching someone dancing in a strobe light.

Makes me think of Necrid from soul calibur 2. He had all those weird mismatched body parts and generated a blade of pure energy that winked into existance only while being used.

[Kittenwolf]

Have just clarified things with my GM. We're going to modify the Gestalting rules so it's basically "Tier 1 & 2 can't Gestalt with Tier 1-3".

Crusader/Incarnate is in :D