Awakened Undead, How Do They Work?

[Elric VIII]

I am currently a level 15 Cleric/Bone Knight with the Deathbound domain. I have recently awakened my Purple Worm zombie and I'm not exactly sure what to do with it now. It has 32HD, was created in a desecrated altar, and is subject to Corpsecrafter (so it has 32d12+128 hp).

I have a few questions about it:

Now that it is intelligent, assuming it follows me, does it take up space in my controlled undead HD?


Can it level up its HD?


Can it gain class levels?


How is its exp calculated (is it like a cohort)?


How are feats allocated to it, based on it's RHD (does it retroactively gain feats)?

[Coidzor]

Way I've usually seen people seem to deal with that bit was that it's still controlled via the animate dead mechanic, it's just sapient now.

Mostly because there's nothing in either about them actually interacting whatsoever that I can recall, so without something canceling the control mechanic, the control is still in effect.


Now that it is intelligent, assuming it follows me, does it take up space in my controlled undead HD? -> Yes, though you can also release it from compelled service if you wanna risk having it serve you willingly.


Can it level up its HD?

Not sure what you mean here... What are you asking specifically? Are you asking if it can trade in HD for class levels?


Can it gain class levels?

As much as an awakened animal is capable, it should be, yes. Most threads that have dealt with them at all that I've seen do treat them as capable of doing so if the DM allows them to count as something that can gain XP instead of counting them as followers/animal companion types, which if going that way, makes it pointless for a fair number of undead to awaken them....

On the other hand, leveling up, say, humanoid/giant awakened undead into backup party members is both a bit OP since it's like something better than undead leadership and a bit of a pain due to losing out XP to get them up to speed and keeping them alive through fights that can get them XP at alll.


How is its exp calculated (is it like a cohort)?

As far as I know, that's the only way to calculate experience for something that isn't a full party member that also fights with the party.

You could use a non-WOTC method but I can't recall any notable homebrew/house rules for it.


How are feats allocated to it, based on it's RHD (does it retroactively gain feats)?

It should, but as feats that it could get based upon its HD at the time (1st, 3rd, and so on).

[Curmudgeon]

How are feats allocated to it, based on it's RHD (does it retroactively gain feats)?
No, nothing gains feats retroactively unless there's an explicit exception saying so. From page 6 of the Monster Manual:
WHY A REVISION?
... and we’ve reworked all monsters so that they gain feats and skills the same way that player characters do. If you check pages 58-59 of the Player's Handbook you'll see the LEVEL ADVANCEMENT steps. Here's the relevant part:
7. Feats: Upon attaining 3rd level and at every third level thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level), the character gains one feat of your choice You can only gain one feat at level advancement, and only when that's a multiple of 3 HD.

[Elric VIII]

Way I've usually seen people seem to deal with that bit was that it's still controlled via the animate dead mechanic, it's just sapient now.

Mostly because there's nothing in either about them actually interacting whatsoever that I can recall, so without something canceling the control mechanic, the control is still in effect.

Yes, though you can also release it from compelled service if you wanna risk having it serve you willingly.

That all seems reasonable.


Not sure what you mean here... What are you asking specifically? Are you asking if it can trade in HD for class levels?

What I meant to ask was can I advance its monster HD as it levels up (since that would be less bookkeeping than giving it a class?




As far as I know, that's the only way to calculate experience for something that isn't a full party member that also fights with the party.

You could use a non-WOTC method but I can't recall any notable homebrew/house rules for it.

Here's the thing, AFAIK cohorts gain exp by the equation: (exp I get)*(its ECL)/(my ECL). For most cohorts it's not a problem, since this ends up being less than 100% of the exp I receive. However, the worm has a higher ECL, so that was the source of my confusion.


No, nothing gains feats retroactively unless there's an explicit exception saying so. From page 6 of the Monster Manual: If you check pages 58-59 of the Player's Handbook you'll see the LEVEL ADVANCEMENT steps. Here's the relevant part: You can only gain one feat at level advancement, and only when that's a multiple of 3 HD.

That's a shame, but makes sense.

[Coidzor]

Here's the thing, AFAIK cohorts gain exp by the equation: (exp I get)*(its ECL)/(my ECL). For most cohorts it's not a problem, since this ends up being less than 100% of the exp I receive. However, the worm has a higher ECL, so that was the source of my confusion.

Yeah, there's a bit of stuff here that falls outside of what the written rules cover or cover well. My advice to you, look around for alternative XP.


What I meant to ask was can I advance its monster HD as it levels up (since that would be less bookkeeping than giving it a class?

DM's going to have to play ball with you anyway, given the whole cohort XP thing if you have multiple awakened undead. So, yeah, you could investigate this, but there's nothing in the RAW about it.

In answer to the title question, well, "nebulously" is the best way to sum it up. Just look at all the perennial questions about LA for awakened animals.


That's a shame, but makes sense.

Really now, I recall reading that things that were mindless but no longer are gain feats and skillpoints for their HD that they are entitled to. But that bit of RAW does not actually preclude them having empty feat slots due to the fact that they are sapient and have X multiples of 3 HD. So, no, I'm going to have to disagree and contend that it doesn't make sense.

[Elric VIII]

Yeah, there's a bit of stuff here that falls outside of what the written rules cover or cover well. My advice to you, look around for alternative XP.
Good idea. Mostly I don't want to take exp away from my party.




Really now, I recall reading that things that were mindless but no longer are gain feats and skillpoints for their HD that they are entitled to. But that bit of RAW does not actually preclude them having empty feat slots due to the fact that they are sapient and have X multiples of 3 HD. So, no, I'm going to have to disagree and contend that it doesn't make sense.

I assumed that becoming undead was like breaking one of your sacred vows (with regards to your feats), where you lose them and don't get a refund because your VoP means that you can't keep the receipt.

Although, if you have an explaination for the contrary, I would be very happy to hear it. I don't have the benefit of an actual undead army (by my DM's request) so I need to have a nice, powerful, single undead companion.

One thing to consider, however, is that by becoming a zombie its HD are doubled. I'm not sure what this does to anything.

[Coidzor]

Good idea. Mostly I don't want to take exp away from my party. Eh? I thought Cohorts just diminished your own share of XP. I'd better go double check that.


I assumed that becoming undead was like breaking one of your sacred vows (with regards to your feats), where you lose them and don't get a refund because your VoP means that you can't keep the receipt.

Except they're not the feats of the creature that was dead, they're the feats of the newly awakened undead, so that point you just made is irrelevant. Also, undead that have minds have feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm), so you're doubly out on that count. Add in the bit where Sacred Vows are a horrible mechanic and shouldn't be extrapolated from in order to be used to justify gimping others....

Mindless undead don't have feats because they're mindless. Once they have a mind, they're entitled to having feat slots per 3/HD, and it's however the DM wants to adjudicate filling them with either time or some basic stuff off the bat or having to shuffle the dark chaos for them.


One thing to consider, however, is that by becoming a zombie its HD are doubled. I'm not sure what this does to anything.

Well, if it was a 3 HD creature in life, it'd now have 6 HD, so that'd have the effect of it having an extra feat slot by virtue of its HD.

[Elric VIII]

Eh? I thought Cohorts just diminished your own share of XP. I'd better go double check that.

From what I gathered, cohorts received separate exp based on your share of exp.




Except they're not the feats of the creature that was dead, they're the feats of the newly awakened undead, so that point you just made is irrelevant. Also, undead that have minds have feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm), so you're doubly out on that count. Add in the bit where Sacred Vows are a horrible mechanic and shouldn't be extrapolated from in order to be used to justify gimping others....

Mindless undead don't have feats because they're mindless. Once they have a mind, they're entitled to having feat slots per 3/HD, and it's however the DM wants to adjudicate filling them with either time or some basic stuff off the bat or having to shuffle the dark chaos for them.



Well, if it was a 3 HD creature in life, it'd now have 6 HD, so that'd have the effect of it having an extra feat slot by virtue of its HD.

This resoning works for me, I'll run it by my DM.

[Elric VIII]

So, my DM seems to be ok with letting it gain feats. But I have another question.

Is there anything to support the fact that an awakened undead gains it previous consciousness or does the animating spirit simply become a new consciousness?

[WinWin]

A new consciousness/intelligence. Keep in mind it's intelligence is limited by the intelligence of the living creature type. It will be no more intelligent than your average Purple Worm. The MM should contain the rules for undead skills, feats, saving throws and BAB.

[Claudius Maximus]

How do you have a 32 HD non-dragon zombie?

[Coidzor]

How do you have a 32 HD non-dragon zombie?

I remember seeing it proposed that create undead could do it, but I'm guessing DM approval of extending the cap myself with create undead as my second guess.

[Elric VIII]

A new consciousness/intelligence. Keep in mind it's intelligence is limited by the intelligence of the living creature type. It will be no more intelligent than your average Purple Worm. The MM should contain the rules for undead skills, feats, saving throws and BAB.

Good, so things won't rememebr that I killed them.


I remember seeing it proposed that create undead could do it, but I'm guessing DM approval of extending the cap myself with create undead as my second guess.

Huh, I thought it only counted initial HD. It's not much of a problem because I was capable of casting Create Undead, but I should run that by my DM.

[Coidzor]

Good, so things won't rememebr that I killed them.



Huh, I thought it only counted initial HD. It's not much of a problem because I was capable of casting Create Undead, but I should run that by my DM.

Well, it does, but it's 20 for things to be made into skeletons and 10 for things to be made into zombies without going into the special rules for making draconic undead.

I believe Frank and/or K put forth or inspired it being put forth in a necromancy handbook that the cap on HD for creating skellies and zombies was just on the animate dead spell rather than the template itself, so using a more powerful undead-making spell would appear to be reasonable.

But I might have been confusing a reference to them in the necromancy handbook I was reading... Either way, something to look into clarifying, especially if it's already been ok'd.