Can you stack arcane strike with itself

[Laniius]

Can you stack arcane strike with itself? It's a free action to spend one spell. Does that mean that you can spend multiple spells to get a ginormous bonus to attack and damage on one attack? Or is it one spell spent per attack.

[Goonthegoof]

The damage stacks, the attack doesn't.

[Claudius Maximus]

The attack does not stack.

The damage does.

However, this is silly.

[Sacrieur]

Can you stack arcane strike with itself? It's a free action to spend one spell. Does that mean that you can spend multiple spells to get a ginormous bonus to attack and damage on one attack? Or is it one spell spent per attack.

No, bonuses that come from the same source do not stack, instead, only the highest bonus applies.

[Curmudgeon]

As Sacrieur said.
Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). Arcane Strike provides a bonus to your damage rolls, so that's not allowed to stack. You can roll your extra damage (1d4 points x the level of the spell sacrificed) for each use of Arcane Strike and add whichever single bonus is best.

[Tenebris]

Can you stack arcane strike with itself? It's a free action to spend one spell. Does that mean that you can spend multiple spells to get a ginormous bonus to attack and damage on one attack? Or is it one spell spent per attack.

It's an unnamed bonus, so it should stack. Note however, that this bonus cannot be greater than your BAB.

[Sacrieur]

It's an unnamed bonus, so it should stack. Note however, that this bonus cannot be greater than your BAB.

Not if they come from the same source (e.g., same spell or same feat).

[VirOath]

Actually, Arcane Strike doesn't provide a bonus to your damage rolls. How am I not crazy?

A bonus to your damage rolls is something akin to your Strength Bonus on melee attacks. A static number.

Arcane Strike provides damage dice, extra damage, not a damage bonus. With how the rules work, you have have a Flaming Weapon(1d6) used by a Pyromancer(2d6) enhanced by a Red DFI Bard (We'll say 4d6) for a total of 7d6 extra fire damage on each attack. If you claim that stacking rules apply to extra damage dice in any way, the entire paragraph has to be applied and since it is all the same type of extra damage dice (Fire) only the highest would apply.

If you stand on this argument and will tell me that multiple sources of fire damage do not stack, then my own points hold no water.

The feat itself makes no limitations to the extra damage dice given either, only the attack bonus is limited by BAB. And as far as I know, extra damage from an active source always stacks.

[Curmudgeon]

Arcane Strike doesn't provide a bonus to your damage rolls. How am I not crazy?

A bonus to your damage rolls is something akin to your Strength Bonus on melee attacks. A static number.
I'm afraid you're making up something not in the rules there.
bonus

A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don't have a specific type always stack with all bonuses. There's no "static number" requirement. Dice can't produce zero or negative numbers, so they always yield positive modifiers, which meets the D&D definition for "bonus".

So it seems that you may indeed be crazy ─ or at least wrong. :smallwink:

[Sacrieur]

I'm afraid you're making up something not in the rules there. There's no "static number" requirement. Dice can't produce zero or negative numbers, so they always yield positive modifiers, which meets the D&D definition for "bonus".

So it seems that you may indeed be crazy ─ or at least wrong. :smallwink:

Damage modifiers stack unless they come from the same source. Extra damage dice are not affected by modifer/penalty rules. read farther up, you'll see how there is a distinction between modifier and die roll. This is why a lot of spell put caps on how much extra damage die they add.

For example, the Paladin spell Sacrifice allows you to give 2 hp for 1d6, but it only allows you to sacrifice 10 hp, for a maximum of 5d6 extra damage.

[VirOath]

I'm afraid you're making up something not in the rules there. There's no "static number" requirement. Dice can't produce zero or negative numbers, so they always yield positive modifiers, which meets the D&D definition for "bonus".

So it seems that you may indeed be crazy ─ or at least wrong. :smallwink:

A modifier to a die roll is a static number, a number that is set before you roll the die. Extra damage dice are just that, dice and not subject to the modifier limitations.

Example, Weapon Spec adds +2 damage, meaning it's a modifier. Your Strength Bonus adds +X to your damage rolls, or +X*1.5 to your damage rolls. Power Attack adds +X to your damage rolls. All modifiers, all static numbers that are set by conditions before the dice are rolled. All of these are written as Damage Bonus.

Yet, Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Sudden Strike, Strike Maneuvers, etc all add Extra Dice to your damage, these are variable sources of damage in their own right. All of these are written as Extra Damage.

And for further distinction, reread Arcane Strike. The wording of it is Extra Damage, no were is it a Damage Bonus.

[Curmudgeon]

A modifier to a die roll is a static number, a number that is set before you roll the die.
Again, that's not what the D&D definition of the term (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_modifier&alpha=M) says:
modifier

Any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty. Modifiers from the same source do not stack, and modifiers with specific descriptors generally do not stack with others of the same type. If more than one modifier of a type is present, only the best bonus or worst penalty in that grouping applies. Bonuses or penalties that do not have descriptors stack with those that do. A die added to a roll is a bonus, because that's always a positive number. There is no "static number" requirement in the rules; that's a restriction that you've made up.

[Vladislav]

You must sacrifice one of your spells for the day (of 1st level or higher) to do this, but you gain a bonus on all your attack rolls for 1 round equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, as well as extra damage equal to ld4 points x the level of the spell sacrificed.
Note the difference. The attack roll has a "bonus" (untyped bonus, by the way), which doesn't stack with itself. The damage roll doesn't have a bonus. It's just "extra damage", which stacks ad infinitum.

So, by RAW, you can dump all your spells into one alpha-strike, for a near-unlimited damage. Possibly, some member of the editorial stuff wasn't thinking and dropped the ball on this one, but nonetheless, this is RAW. If you don't like it, houserule it away.

[VirOath]

Again, that's not what the D&D definition of the term (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_modifier&alpha=M) says: A die added to a roll is a bonus, because that's always a positive number. There is no "static number" requirement in the rules; that's a restriction that you've made up.

That's just it, it's not a restriction. By the very definition of math, the modifiers in DnD are static numbers. You always know what the modifier is before you roll, and the modifier cannot change during or after the roll. You can't pull back on Power Attack after you've rolled to make sure you hit, or because you could have put more in and still hit.

Extra Damage Dice aren't static, nor are they modifiers. This this game, all dice are variables. The two are completely separate.

[Curmudgeon]

By the very definition of math, the modifiers in DnD are static numbers.
We don't care about the "definition of math"; we care about the definitions of the game terms. You're violating the D&D definitions of "bonus" and "modifier". Any additional restrictions you impose are house rules.

[Laniius]

Damage modifiers stack unless they come from the same source. Extra damage dice are not affected by modifer/penalty rules. read farther up, you'll see how there is a distinction between modifier and die roll. This is why a lot of spell put caps on how much extra damage die they add.

For example, the Paladin spell Sacrifice allows you to give 2 hp for 1d6, but it only allows you to sacrifice 10 hp, for a maximum of 5d6 extra damage.

Ok so Arcane Strike is functioning like Sacrifice, only I'm giving up spells/spell slots instead of hp? So if I give up say one 1st level spell and one 2nd level spell to power this, I will do an extra +3d4 damage on the attack but will only have a +2 bonus to the attack roll (as that part does not stack)?

[pilvento]

Ok so Arcane Strike is functioning like Sacrifice, only I'm giving up spells/spell slots instead of hp? So if I give up say one 1st level spell and one 2nd level spell to power this, I will do an extra +3d4 damage on the attack but will only have a +2 bonus to the attack roll (as that part does not stack)?

It stack but as the feat said, the atack bonus is limited by your BaB

[Forged Fury]

<sigh>

Just to forestall a lot of waster posts, I wouldn't suggest continuing to debate the bonus vs. dice issue. Curmudgeon has a historically strong belief in his reading of RAW and doesn't waver.

For Instance
SA damage only stacks with other SA dice if it is specified in one of the class features granting SA dice (e.g. Assassin). Of course, reading it in this way makes several PRCs with SA pre-requisites that provide SA advancement somewhat pointless since the SA they gained from the precursor class doesn't stack with the SA gained from the PRC (see the Thief of Life from Faiths of Eberron for an example).
If that interpretation seems incongrous to you, you probably should just disregard the bonus vs. dice argument and roll on.

[KillianHawkeye]

Nobody plays 100% by RAW anyway, so I don't get the point of arguing about this. :smallsigh:

Ask your DM if he'll let you spend more than one spell a round on Arcane Strike. Or if you're the DM, make up your own mind about how it should work.

[Jack Zander]

Nobody plays 100% by RAW anyway, so I don't get the point of arguing about this. :smallsigh:

Some people like to hear both sides of the argument before they bring it up with their DM because then they are more prepared to receive a favorable ruling.

[KillianHawkeye]

Hearing both sides of the issue is fine. Arguing back and forth about it with people you'll never play with is pointless.

[Jack Zander]

Right, but then all disagreements tend to attract people with the mentality of: "I'm right about everything and it is my civic duty to correct all those horrible people who I think are wrong!"

[Z3ro]

Right, but then all disagreements tend to attract people with the mentality of: "I'm right about everything and it is my civic duty to correct all those horrible people who I think are wrong!"

This seems familiar.

http://xkcd.com/386/

[Claudius Maximus]

On the other hand, I have actually changed my mind on certain RAW issues after pages of quote-scalpel back and forth arguments. It's fine as long as you present your arguments logically and keep an open mind. How common that is is another story.

In this case though I simply don't care. Arcane Strike will never stack in any way in any of my games, so I could not care less what the RAW situation is. Ultimately though I agree with VirOath and disagree with Curmudgeon, and hold in all ways to my first post in this thread.

[Laniius]

Ok, the general consensus seems to be "Ask your DM" and I'm cool with that. The feat is definitely worth it if it stacks, but is it worth it if it doesn't? Is it worth burning a spell for a spell level * 1d4 damage bonus? Caveat: This guy is not a full caster, but a factotum/chameleon who currently has up to 3rd level chameleon spells. I assume factotum spells can't be burned this way as they are spell-like abilities.

[Jack Zander]

Ok, the general consensus seems to be "Ask your DM" and I'm cool with that. The feat is definitely worth it if it stacks, but is it worth it if it doesn't? Is it worth burning a spell for a spell level * 1d4 damage bonus? Caveat: This guy is not a full caster, but a factotum/chameleon who currently has up to 3rd level chameleon spells. I assume factotum spells can't be burned this way as they are spell-like abilities.

Without allowing it to stack I'd say no. Typically a spell's power will do much more for you then a few extra d4s. Maybe it could be worth it to use up those spells you prepared but were useless in the current dungeon (you prepared speak with dead, but none of the enemies are humanoids), but even then that's a highly situational circumstance for a subpar effect.

[candycorn]

I partially agree with Curmudgeon.

A modifier is anything which modifies the base roll. If you want to argue this, feel free to bring up any mathematics definition you like. When a word or phrase is a defined game term, the definition in the sourcebooks trumps everything else. That can be +6 (ex: power attack damage), +2d6 (ex: sneak attack damage), or a combination of the above. If you are arguing that dice don't modify the base roll, then you are essentially stating that 2d6+2 is exactly identical to 2d6+2 + 2d4 + 3d6 + 1d8. Because if those dice at the end aren't modifiers, then they do not modify the roll. Since there is an instruction to add the result of those die rolls to the base roll, it does modify, however.

In other words: A modifier may be unknown. There is no requirement for a roller to know the final result of a modifier prior to its application.

If it's positive, it's a bonus. He's right, it doesn't need to stack.

Arcane Strike is an untyped damage bonus. Multiple applications won't stack, RAW.

Most damage bonuses are untyped. Power attack isn't an enchancement bonus, or a competence bonus. Sneak attack isn't a profane bonus, or a circumstance bonus. It's an untyped bonus.

Now, take sneak attack granted by levels in the rogue class, and sneak attack granted by levels in the assassin class. Two untyped bonuses granted by different sources. They stack.

On a side note: Technically by the definition, the str increase from a belt of giant strength doesn't meet the D&D definition of bonus. It is a bonus only because the item explicitly say it is. But no, an increase to strength doesn't modify a die roll directly. It modifies your strength modifier, which then modifies rolls. Since the +6 to strength doesn't apply to a die roll (instead being derived to a +3 bonus to strength related checks and rolls), it wouldn't be a bonus, except for the fact that it explicitly states that it is a bonus.

[ffone]

As a DM, you can ask your players whether they would like Arcane Strike damage to stack - and before they answer, casually mention that if it does, NPC gishes, dragons, nagas, etc. may use it to dump every spell slot on a PC at once. A typical dragon is gish-like so it's a reasonable feat, and doesn't expect to fight more than one encounter a day; so in-character, it might well make sense for it to go nova?

IIRC the bonuses were for one round, not one attack? So a dragon would have 6 chances to deal the damage if it full attacks that round? Maybe 8, 10, or 12 if it has Improved Rapidstrike (claw) and (wing), 13 if it saves one 2nd level slot for Swift Haste? And if every melee PC ever takes the 1-level of Pouncebarian, why not any Chaotic dragon?

[Rebel7284]

Ok so Arcane Strike is functioning like Sacrifice, only I'm giving up spells/spell slots instead of hp? So if I give up say one 1st level spell and one 2nd level spell to power this, I will do an extra +3d4 damage on the attack but will only have a +2 bonus to the attack roll (as that part does not stack)?

This is exactly correct by RAW. The +2 to attack and +1 attack is coming from the same source and thus can't stack. The dice always stack.

Yes it's powerful (not broken, burning all your slots in one attack should sure as hell be powerful, and you can still miss!).

If it's too powerful for your game, houserule it.

[Newt]

This is exactly correct by RAW. The +2 to attack and +1 attack is coming from the same source and thus can't stack. The dice always stack.

Yes it's powerful (not broken, burning all your slots in one attack should sure as hell be powerful, and you can still miss!).

If it's too powerful for your game, houserule it.

Too powerful? Really?

Read the PHB level nine spells. Now read the definition of that feat and what you can do with it. You could sacrifice a level nine spell for a +9 to attack and +9d4 damage, or you could Timestop and cast as many quickened delayed fireballs as you could fit in. And that's one of the least cheesy things to do with that spell.

The feat as is, not powerful in the slightest. It is marginally useful to a wizard who wants to be in melee but that's about it. Even allowing someone to dump every spell they had into one attack wouldn't be broken. A 20th level Wizard who dumped every spell they had would get.. 4d4 + 8d4 + 12d4 + 16d4 + 20d4 + 24d4 + 28d4 + 32d4 + 36d4 which is.. 180-608hp damage with a +180 to attack.

For using every single spell they have.

Now, to put this in perspective, a Fireball, 3rd level spell, does 10d6 damage at 20. A 20th level Wizard has four 3rd level spells available to him. That's 40d6 which is 40-240hp damage. That's 1/3rd of the way to our first stat and only 4 spell slots down.

Meteor Swarm, a 9th level spell of which a 20th level Wizard has four of, does 6d6 fire damage when they explode. Oh, and there's four of these per casting, and an extra 2d6 if the sphere's hit someone on the way down. We'll ignore that and focus on the fire damage. 6d6 x 4 per casting x 4 for the amount of spells is 24 x 4 is 96d6 damage. That's 96-576hp damage.

If a Wizard chose to dump every spell they had because a feat didn't name a benefit type then do you really care? Their loss of a few thousand points of damage. In one attack which could conceivably be fumbled unless you're house ruling it to get rid of the 5% constant miss stupidity. Even then, the loss is greater than the gain. It would be useful though, if a Wizard was up against something with massive SR and armor, and chose to sacrifice their power to defeat the invincible monster that was hammering their team. You could throw the Wild Magic book at them given they've unleashed everything in a single minute burst and they save the day! And get irrevocably turned into a heightened frog. Story wise and mechanically, no reason not to let it stack.