Intelligence Template

[Major]

I'm pretty sure there isn't since I've been digging through google, my books, the dragon magazines I have, etc., but I figured playgrounders would know for sure,

In case I've just missed one, is there any template that adds to intelligence without a level adjustment?

I know magic blooded adds charisma, but what about intelligence? Anything to help there?

[HunterOfJello]

None that I'm aware of. A common method I always forget about is to increase the age up to the Middle Aged to boost all mental stats by 1 and decrease all physical stats by 1.

[Talbot]

I dunno if there's a template (though I feel like there is), but there are a coupla elf variants that give a +2.

[Goonthegoof]

Dropping age is usually easiest. Just find a la+0 race with +2 int and start off middle aged.

[TroubleBrewing]

Grey elf is the usual choice. I prefer fire elf, myself.

[Goonthegoof]

With dragonborn to offset the con penalty if you can.

[TroubleBrewing]

Unless I'm feeling sadistic and evil, yes.

[Feytalist]

I was under the impression that Dragonborn wipes out all the base race's attributes, including ability modifiers. Wouldn't that nullify the +2 Int racial bonus?

The entry specifically states that it even wipes out a human's racial feat at lvl 1.

Unless I am very much mistaken, which has been known to happen.

[TroubleBrewing]

It most definitely does not wipe ability scores.

[Douglas]

Ability score modifiers is one of the few things from the base race that Dragonborn does not erase.

[Sacrieur]

There are no 0 LA templates that increase intelligence. Sorry mate D=

[Feytalist]

Ability score modifiers is one of the few things from the base race that Dragonborn does not erase.

I stand corrected.

This just makes Dragonborn slightly more awesome than they already are, so I don't mind :smallbiggrin:

[Amnestic]

Unless I'm feeling sadistic and evil, yes.

Might not be a universal houserule, but I know that at least some people allow there to be Dragonborn of Tiamat, or simply not have Dragonborn be alignment restricted.


I was under the impression that Dragonborn wipes out all the base race's attributes, including ability modifiers. Wouldn't that nullify the +2 Int racial bonus?

The Dragonborn template doesn't wipe out racial ability modifiers. Dragonborn keep: Type, subtype+race (adding Dragonblood subtype), RHD, ability modifiers, size, speed (though traits like the dwarf's move in armour thing is lost), languages, favoured class, LA.

'Other' racial traits - including the human's bonus feat+skills - are lost.

[Bibliomancer]

Interesting fact:

Depending on your reading of RAW, it is against the rules to start middle aged or older. The PHB specifies that all players start as 'adults'. 'Adult' is a defined term in core meaning older than a child but younger than middle aged, so it depends on if you interpret that to be above child or above child and below middle aged (also, those guidelines are specifically for first level characters).

[Amnestic]

Interesting fact:

Depending on your reading of RAW, it is against the rules to start middle aged or older. The PHB specifies that all players start as 'adults'. 'Adult' is a defined term in core meaning older than a child but younger than middle aged, so it depends on if you interpret that to be above child or above child and below middle aged (also, those guidelines are specifically for first level characters).

Considering how many people don't seem to start play at 1st level (from what I, personally, have observed) I can say that's probably not a big deal.

[TroubleBrewing]

True. Doesn't make much sense to have a 75-year old human as a 1st level adventurer. What, did he just all of a sudden develop homicidal urges and charge out into the wilderness with...

Actually, that's a brilliant idea. I'm so using this in my next campaign.

[Rebel7284]

Primordial Giant from Secrets of Sarlona adds +4 Int, +4 Cha, -2 Con, -4 Str (and a bunch of other goodies!) for 0 LA.

There is a catch, it can only be applied to giants and the lowest LA giants are +1 LA. As I recall, a primordial giant half giant has a total of -2 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Cha. Pretty good for 1 LA. Very sexy if LA buyoff is allowed.

--- Warning, everything below this line is cheese cheese cheese ---

Warforged + a way to grow in size + Incarnate Construct spell = -2 LA Giant.
Yes, that's negative LA.

If you can somehow get a normally inherited template after that... such as a wish spell + nice DM, you can get this template in addition to having those additional two levels of free LA. Only takes a few level 9 spells. :D

[manyslayer]

--- Warning, everything below this line is cheese cheese cheese ---

Warforged + a way to grow in size + Incarnate Construct spell = -2 LA Giant.
Yes, that's negative LA.

If you can somehow get a normally inherited template after that... such as a wish spell + nice DM, you can get this template in addition to having those additional two levels of free LA. Only takes a few level 9 spells. :D

But just because you grow in size, it does not change your type to giant. You would still be a living construct.

[Sacrieur]

Primordial Giant from Secrets of Sarlona adds +4 Int, +4 Cha, -2 Con, -4 Str (and a bunch of other goodies!) for 0 LA.

There is a catch, it can only be applied to giants and the lowest LA giants are +1 LA. As I recall, a primordial giant half giant has a total of -2 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Cha. Pretty good for 1 LA. Very sexy if LA buyoff is allowed.

--- Warning, everything below this line is cheese cheese cheese ---

Warforged + a way to grow in size + Incarnate Construct spell = -2 LA Giant.
Yes, that's negative LA.

If you can somehow get a normally inherited template after that... such as a wish spell + nice DM, you can get this template in addition to having those additional two levels of free LA. Only takes a few level 9 spells. :D

The catch is that there isn't a giant with a +0 LA

[Rebel7284]

But just because you grow in size, it does not change your type to giant. You would still be a living construct.

Please read the template before you comment:



Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to humanoid
if it is Medium-size or smaller, or giant if it is Large or
larger.

[Curmudgeon]

Warforged + a way to grow in size + Incarnate Construct spell = -2 LA Giant.
...
If you can somehow get a normally inherited template after that... such as a wish spell + nice DM
That's not a nice DM; that's a ply-you-with-free-pizza pushover DM. Incarnate Construct is an acquired (i.e., only after birth) template. You never, ever, get inherited (before birth) templates after that. :smallsigh:

[manyslayer]

Please read the template before you comment:

Sorry. My bad:smalleek:

Somehow completely missed that bit. Think it brought back arguments had once with someone that no, a dwarf's bonus against giants does not apply to anything bigger than him (thankfully not someone I game with, just someone at the local store).

[erikun]

The catch is that there isn't a giant with a +0 LA
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) is +1 LA though, which is close though.

A middle-aged Fire Grey Elf would be +6 Int at LA+0, if you could find a DM that would allow it.

[Sacrieur]

Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) is +1 LA though, which is close though.

A middle-aged Fire Grey Elf would be +6 Int at LA+0, if you could find a DM that would allow it.

Well naturally, there are plenty of giants that are +1 LA. This is because a size greater than medium is always a +1 LA, just as a size smaller than medium is a -1 LA.

[TroubleBrewing]

Fire Elf and Grey Elf are different subraces; you can't mix the two.

[Lateral]

Well naturally, there are plenty of giants that are +1 LA. This is because a size greater than medium is always a +1 LA, just as a size smaller than medium is a -1 LA.

That's not even remotely true. Below small size, decreasing size increases LA, and Large is usually worth +2. Half-Giant and Goliath are both LA +1 and they have powerful build, not Large size.

[erikun]

I've always found it odd that some people have no problem accepting a minotaur warhammer as a valid weapon, despite being listed in only one statblock and no base stats for the weapon existing, yet don't consider the Race of Fire ability modifiers to be applyable to anything but the two races presented in Unearthed Arcana. Maybe I'm just odd, but I don't see any difference between the two.

[TroubleBrewing]

Powerful Build allows qualification for things that require large size. A few examples: War Hulk. Hulking Hurler.

[Curmudgeon]

Powerful Build allows qualification for things that require large size. A few examples: War Hulk. Hulking Hurler.
Well, that's 100% wrong.

Powerful Build applies to

size modifiers for opposed checks;
whether a creature’s special attacks based on size can affect you; and
using weapons designed for a creature one size larger.
That's all of it, except where something specifically allows it as a qualification, and that's limited to a few feats in Races of Stone.

You've got to actually be of size Large+ for everything else.

[Sacrieur]

That's not even remotely true. Below small size, decreasing size increases LA, and Large is usually worth +2. Half-Giant and Goliath are both LA +1 and they have powerful build, not Large size.


Tiny and smaller monsters trade being harder to hit
for lower Strength scores and the need to enter another character's
space to engage in melee combat. Such a creature gets the same –1 level adjustment as a Small creature does.

And it is funny, because right above that it did prove one of my comments wrong:


A Large creature gets no level adjustment for size.
Its level adjustment is based on its reach instead.

[Rebel7284]

Powerful Build allows qualification for things that require large size. A few examples: War Hulk. Hulking Hurler.

Rules quote please. As far as I know, Goliaths usually qualify for War Hulk with mountain rage barbarian substitution levels that actually make them large when raging. They then lose all War Hulk class features when they go back to being medium (although losing "no time to think" is sometimes a good thing). Great way to make the marvel Hulk.

[Lateral]

@Sacrieur: See, the problem with that assumption is that you're referring to Savage Species.

Savage Species. I mean, come on, the rules in there aren't even close to balanced. Plus, that rule only refers to Small. Below Small, it requires increased LA because of the immense benefits for non-melee.

[Necroticplague]

But we're looking for an actual size increase (powerful build and jotunbrud won't work) for a living construct so that incarnate construct makes it a Giant, thus qualyfying for primordial giant. Also, being large is not worth any more LA than being small (however, being Huge or bigger is worth LA, just like being smaller than Small [Tiny, Diminuitive,Fine]). The reach that usually comes with it, however, is.


Sang, ninja'd

[Sacrieur]

@Sacrieur: See, the problem with that assumption is that you're referring to Savage Species.

Savage Species. I mean, come on, the rules in there aren't even close to balanced. Plus, that rule only refers to Small. Below Small, it requires increased LA because of the immense benefits for non-melee.

I changed it to the part where it mentions creatures smaller than small. They get the same -1 LA small creatures get. And whether or not the rules are balanced is irrelevant. You're welcome to homebrew differently, but for the purposes of this forum, we try to work best within the rules. I even agree that they're imbalanced, but it doesn't resolve any issues.

[Lateral]

The Savage Species rules aren't ever referred to when WotC publishes other monsters. The usual consensus, based on what the most balanced templates are, is that Large is usually worth +2 and that Tiny and below are worth more. Goliath and Half-Giant are well-balanced +1 LA races, and both of them have Powerful Build and not Large size.

Despite Savage Species' rulings, what matters is what most of the races are, as long as the majority are also balanced.

[Shapurnippal]

There is in fact a template to get a good intelligence bonus without either the +1 LA half-giant or Incarnate Phrenic Warforged oddities.

You can easily cheese out a Dragonwrought Kobold with Intelligence modifiers using the Dragon Psychoses article from Dragon #313. The 'Riddled' psychosis gives +6 Int, -4 Wis (with a Venerable Dragonwrought, this bumps up to +9 Int, -1 Wis). The Spellhoarding psychosis gives +2 Int, -4 Wis, but changes the Dragon's natural spellcasting to Wizard spellcasting (combine this with Loredrake for titanic cheese), gives it Eschew Materials as a bonus feat, and makes its skin into its spellbook.

None of them have LA modifiers.

[Sacrieur]

The Savage Species rules aren't ever referred to when WotC publishes other monsters. The usual consensus, based on what the most balanced templates are, is that Large is usually worth +2 and that Tiny and below are worth more. Goliath and Half-Giant are well-balanced +1 LA races, and both of them have Powerful Build and not Large size.

Despite Savage Species' rulings, what matters is what most of the races are, as long as the majority are also balanced.

Dear god why rule that way? Tiny and Small get slower movement speed and negatives to strength, you're penalizing them for playing something weaker.

[TroubleBrewing]

Dear god why rule that way? Tiny and Small get slower movement speed and negatives to strength, you're penalizing them for playing something weaker.

Not for casters. Or stealthy classes. Or casters.

Mostly, it's so casters don't get free size bonuses to AC/to-hit.

[Sacrieur]

Not for casters. Or stealthy classes. Or casters.

Mostly, it's so casters don't get free size bonuses to AC/to-hit.

Oh, but they can play a halfling without a LA penalty?

[Major]

On a side note race didn't work because I was playing a Changeling. I was just hoping for a way to get a bonus to my intelligence. I just settled for magic-blooded to help my party face features since I couldn't get any way to boost my intelligence.

[TroubleBrewing]

Oh, but they can play a halfling without a LA penalty?

Sure. It's only +1, which translates to a 5% bonus. Tiny bumps it up to a 10% bonus. That's not to say that there isn't a race with +0 LA that's Tiny-sized; there's always Germlaine. But that's MMII material, which has been long-established as mostly broken.

[Lateral]

The point is, at Tiny and below the disadvantages are all meaningless to casters. Most tiny creatures can fly anyway, and the AC and skill bonuses are immense.

Oh, and I know that having flying isn't inherent in Tiny races, but speed penalties aren't inherent past 20 feet at Small size. Even if they can't fly, they still move fast enough that it won't matter on a caster. Plus, they get spells like Fly or Levitate.