Arcane swordsage build.

[Vuann]

Ok so I know all the controversy surrounding the arcane swordsage "variant" so let me first explain. We're playing a new campaign and most of us are pretty new to the game. 5 players, and to my knowledge the only one that has any interest in optimization at this point is me. Some of the others barely know the rules as is(however one is cleric and one is wizard so no optimization needed). I'm playing a Rogue and really wanted to play with some swordsage levels as well. DM doesn't really want to bring in maneuvers and stances this early due to making it even more difficult with the group and their lack of rules knowledge. I totally understand and agree so asked if we could work something out in regards to stances and maneuvers. He read about the swordsage from ToB and saw the arcane variant, and also knows it's considered totally borked as written. We're both working on some ideas and nothing is ironed out completely yet, but I think we're going to simply treat spells as maneuvers and pick out a pool of spells as appropriate. This way I get the utility I want and all the spells should be familiar to the group as we already have a wizard.

If all goes as planned the problem will be my lack of armor. If all my spells are maneuvers then I can't truly buff myself more than a single round. So I'm looking for options to be able to cast some lower level spells to help out until I'm higher level and can get some magic items. As a side note I'm doing the unarmed swordsage variant as well to fit my fighting style. No TWF with this guy, it's 2h sword and snap kick(thus my interest in upping my unarmed strike damage). As part of the deal for losing maneuvers/stances I'm asking for Elven Courtblade to be added to his weapon focus list so I can use shadow blade with it along with unarmed strike.

So the problem is what class can I add that will benefit me the best in the situation? I have 15 int, 9 cha and 7 wis.. Meaning most spontaneous casters are out. No sorcerer(would have been first choice) or hexblade, warmage, etc.. I've come down to these options; Wizard, duskblade, beguiler and archivist.

Each have their own strengths and I was leaning heavily towards Duskblade until I realized mage armor wasn't a spell he can cast. Wizard would give me the best spellcasting, especially if I go focus specialist and can even get the fighter bonus feat ACF, though I lose a BAB and get the low HD. Beguiler would be perfect, except if I'm going to lose a BAB I'd rather get more useful spells like true strike, alter self(troglodyte for natural AC), etc... Then there's archivist which would let me heal and cast divine buffs, though the problem would be actually finding scrolls to scribe into my book.

Are there any other ideas that I'm missing? I'm willing to take a few levels of something if it benefits me enough. 3 levels of wizard gives me alter self and a ton of utility. Duskblade I could have taken 5 or 6 levels of and not lost any BAB and gained some really cool benefits like channeling my spells into sword and such, just the mage armor is the problem. Beguiler seems a good trade between giving me mage armor, a good amount of spells in general, though I'm not sure how useful they'd be with my build. However it also lets me keep up my rogue skills for those levels...

I'm mainly concerned about AC at this point but if I'm going to take a few spellcasting levels why not take full advantage and get all the rest of the utility I can put to good use? I'll have +2 AC from swordsage(Int instead of Wis), but not much else going for me. I could possibly ask to add Mage Armor to a duskblades spell list seeing as I won't have any armor on, and the assumption of a duskblade is that he IS wearing armor and doesn't need the spell. Hence it wasn't included.

[MammonAzrael]

First off, how experienced is your DM? Its good that you both recognize that the arcane variant of swordsage is broken, but I'm worried that you don't realize just how much it is broken, especially considering the other players are new.

Cleric and Wizard are both tier one classes, but both require at least a decent knowledge of the rules and basic optimization to even come close to those levels. Both are good, but neither is terribly overwhelming "out of the box." It takes some serious trawling and understanding of spells to make them truly shine.

Frankly, ToB should outshine the other players, as it is powerful "out of the box," and the arcane variant is just more so.

That said, I just saw your stats, and I am very confused as to why you're going swordsage at all. With a notable penalty to Wisdom it is just not very good. But it sounds like you and your DM are just rewriting swordsage to function of of Int because...why, exactly? What is the extent of the homebrewing and changes you are making?

As for other spell casting classes...why? What do you want this character to do? We can't recommend anything without knowing your end goal. Why isn't Rogue 5 into a PrC like Assassin for casting enough? What is your vision for the character?

Finally...what level are we talking about here, and what are the other players playing?

[Vuann]

Basically I want the character to be a swordsman instead of a the typical "TWF" rogue. When searching around for possibilities I found swordsage to be perfect as it blends so well with Rogue, but has far more utility than a standard Rogue. When DM decided that maneuvers and stances might be a bit much I still thought the base swordsage class was worthwhile as he has lots of sklll points, similar skills to a Rogue, weapon focus, bonus AC and access to shadow blade feat. I originally just thought to keep the base class and supplement the missing maneuvers and stances with pure combat ability via feats and such. Probably not the best idea but his response was to allow an arcane swordsage variant to give me the utility that I'd have normally lost.

Yes I know the low wis seems to go against a standard swordsage, but before I had known about the arcane idea from DM I was considering a level or two of monk to pick up the monks fists and boost damage via superior unarmed strike/aescetic rogue/improved natural attack, or some combination thereof. Seeing as there are feats that grant monks standard wis bonuses into Int based I figured it'd be an easy sell to do so for swordsage as well.

What I'd like for my character is to be a swordsman that uses unarmed strikes as a secondary attack. I like the idea of using an Elven Courtblade as my main weapon, then following up with a snap kick of increased damage via unarmed progression.

Anyways I know it's probably a bit complicated to try and homebrew the swordsage but since he offered I thought I'd go with it. The thing is from what little info was given in ToB, is that the basic arcane swordsage variant was more of a swordsage/sorceror. He would get full spells in place of maneuvers and that was the entire point of it becoming overpowered. By simply changing arcane spells to function like a maneuver it seemed an easier task of balancing. Strikes could function just like arcane channeling, buffs could be boosts and defensive spells could be counters or boosts depending. Point being they last only the one round and would be hard to overpower them with judicious choice of spells.

Ie; the problem I see with it is I can't cast any regular spells, and by losing armor my AC will be low. I'd argue that with this method I shouldn't lose my armor at all but by combining the unarmed swordsage varant I lose armor anyways so I was looking for a way to have a few caster levels to get mage armor, shielding and a few other spells. The other thing was that instead of stances I was going to get bonus feats at each level I'd normally gain a stance. However not the fighter bonus feats, but stronger feats that could better make up for loss of stances like snap kick, shadow blade, evasive reflexes, etc...

Anyways I guess it's a bit complicated but I was figuring this version of swordsage would be a better build than something like a pure rogue/fighter or something. I'm fairly new to D&D myself but I'm far more OCD than the rest and have been researching and reading about everything I can find for the last couple months. Which I guess is part of the problem... after knowing as much as I do know about power levels it's hard for me to want to stick to something so unoptimized when there are classes out there that do exactly what I want without having to multiclass into 5 different things. Swordsage/rogue just seemed a perfect fit so I figured I'd take it as I could get it. Had I knew then what I know now(when we first rolled), I'd have just rolled up a core only Druid and went to town.

I guess theoretically I could have just taken one level of Rogue and went into something like Duskblade, I do kind of have the stats for it though he might still have to be dex based. I have 14 str, 15 int, 17 dex, 15 con and you know the rest. I'm just trying to be as strong a class as I can given the choices I made. Cha and Wis seemed the best dump stats at the time and we rolled legitimately so I couldn't change what I rolled. I mean I guess if I stuck to the basics I could either stay pure rogue with TWF short swords which honestly kind of bores me. Or I could build a rogue/fighter spiked chain tripper. I even considered rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw but I found swordsage and it had all that I wanted in one nice little package.

My other option would be to stick to Rogue for awhile and perhaps down the line be able to play a real swordsage when everyone is more experienced, but by then it's not like I'll have all the feats needed to get adaptive style, shadow blade and the like.

Damn my OCD! I could have just not found this forum and all the other info and been blindly ignorant of the possibilities hehe.

[Douglas]

You could try out my Arcane Swordsage rules (see sig). With those, you could take Mage Armor as a level 1 stance.

[MammonAzrael]

Well then...Why are you playing a rogue? What is the attraction to that class? You could play a fighter, a duskblade, a swashbuckler, or many other classes and be considered a "swordsman." TWF is a prime rogue tactic because sneak attack is stronger with multiple attacks. So f you don't want multiple attacks, then rogue isn't your best option. Heck, if you really need the skills for trapfinding and such, you can take this rogue variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) that swaps out sneak attack for bonus fighter feats.

Just by picking up a class, monk/swordsage does not offer an AC bonus. And spending a feat only gains you a conditional +2 bonus, which is rather uninspiring.

Why are you so focused on Dexterity and an Elven Courtblade? Since your character isn't made yet, you can easily move that to Strength if you wish.

Questions:


What level are you?
What race are you?
Aside from being a "swordsman," what do you want your character to do? Cast spells? Be versatile? Skill monkey? Party Face? I can't recommend things without knowing your goal.
What are all six of your attributes?


Finally I'd advise avoiding Druid or otherwise trying to break the game, as it is generally a lot more fun to be at the same power level of the rest of the group. Outshining everyone can make you have fun for a session or two, but it will generally get dull for everyone else very fast, and potentially turn them off of playing D&D altogether.

[Vuann]

Ok...


1. I'm playing a rogue because when we rolled our guys, we were using only the PHB and it seemed like the best option. I don't like the heavy armored, all out fighter types with zero utility. I prefer light armored guys that rely on wits instead of pure strength to succeed. From PHB it seemed Rogue was the only real option. Keep in mind this was before I understand the game as I do now.

2. As explained above, I just want a guy that doesn't lose his mobility due to heavy armor, and has tricks up his sleeve for different situations. I like the light armored fighter skills like tumble and the ability to cast in light armor. So my "swordsman" idea meant someone who doesn't rely on heavy plate to stand there and take hits, but lighter armor to dodge and dance around.

3. Swashbuckler was one of the classes that really interested me after I searched around a bit. And the ACF arcane stunt is really what turned me onto the possibilities of having that kind of ace up your sleeve. Then I found the Bo9S and here we are.

4. My guy is level 1, but has the exp for level 2 we just haven't played yet to level him up.

Human Rogue, Level 1

Str 14
Con 15
Dex 17
Int 15
Wis 7
Cha 9

I took point blank shot and TWF as feats, and my DM gave me a free combat reflexes based on my background. So again he's built with my knowledge of how a Rogue was supposed to fight, but now I want to build him as a better fighter than a pure Rogue at the cost of some of the Rogue's skills. I like to be able to move silenty, perhaps still find some traps here and there, etc.... Though I don't have to keep those skills totally maxed as I don't think the DM will just throw a ton of traps and locks at us if I don't play a pure Rogue.

We're new to 3.5, but the wizard and cleric both have played 2.0 and so they won't have any trouble growing into their power. We also have a Ranger (archery style) and a Half-Orc fighter. So my goal is to remain part skill monkey, part swordsman. I want to be able to mix it up in combat a bit by being more mobile than the fighter, but can also do some of the skill monkey tasks. The ranger has a high spot/listen so he can scout better than even I can right now.

With all that said, it seemed swordsage was my choice. Better fighter than a rogue by default, more hps, similar skills (ie;tumble, move silently, hide), etc.. With shadow blade and assassin stance he just seemed the perfect multiclass for ANY rogue. Not to mention he fit my concept perfectly as he had gobs of utility with teleporting, turning invisible, etc..

At any rate I don't think our casters are going to be dumb when they level. I'm quite sure the wizard especially knows what he's doing. He won't be breaking the game or anything, but he won't be wasting his spells and feats on worthless things. Cleric is already sort of a monster with the best rolls out of the group. We already have the big dumb half orc fighter that rips through enemies. I just want something like a half Rogue, half Fighter that has mobility, more hps than a Rogue, and has options. I love to play tactically so I just want a guy that has more options than charging and swinging at anything that moves (ala our fighter). I don't expect to be as good at pure fighting as the fighter, nor do I expect to be a full fledged skill monkey. Something in between with as much utility as I can get is what I'm looking for. I talked to DM about fractional BAB, but if he doesn't go for it then I don't want to multiclass a bunch of medium/low bab guys and lose my ability to hit anything.

Hopefully that gives you more of an idea what I'm looking for.

[Last Laugh]

Have you considered Factotum? It can be found in dungeonscape and it has so much versatility it's powerful!

Take a peek at it, it can easily make a light-armored int-based casty/stabby/sneaky/tactically minded character instead of SMASH.

Look for the online factotum support, has a feat called font of Inspiration. Very good for them.

Keep in mind they have 6+int from all skill lists, this gets them goodies such as Autohypnosis, or speak language as a class skill!

You can alter self, mage armor, you add int-->dexterity, and even Bull-Rush attempts! as well as just about all skills, can be added as a dodge bonus to AC.

Dunno, I think factotum is a great tier 3 class, and is useful in nearly every situation.

[Elric VIII]

Have you considered Factotum? It can be found in dungeonscape and it has so much versatility it's powerful!

Take a peek at it, it can easily make a light-armored int-based casty/stabby/sneaky/tactically minded character instead of SMASH.

Look for the online factotum support, has a feat called font of Inspiration. Very good for them.

Keep in mind they have 6+int from all skill lists, this gets them goodies such as Autohypnosis, or speak language as a class skill!

You can alter self, mage armor, you add int-->dexterity, and even Bull-Rush attempts! as well as just about all skills, can be added as a dodge bonus to AC.

Dunno, I think factotum is a great tier 3 class, and is useful in nearly every situation.

Factotum is a nice idea. I really like the idea of Arcane Swordsage, but I agree it can be OP. Although I never got to try it, I thought it might be a good idea to give it a version of Arcane Dilettant and 1 less maneuver/level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Adaptive Style + Heroics as a maneuver:

Ready Heroics, initiate Heroics to gain Martial Study for a long duration (hour/level or 24 hour, often even 10 min/level) spell buff. Use Adaptive Style to ready that and recover Heroics. Initiate the long duration buff. Dismiss the Heroics buff. Repeat.

This gets you buffs like Heart of X, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Protection from Energy/Energy Immunity, Greater/Superior Resistance, etc. by spending one maneuver known on Heroics. You can have any arcane Abjuration, Evocation, or Transmutation spell you need at the ready within two rounds for ultimate versatility.

Other than that, be sure to pick Ruby Ray of Reversal as one of your maneuvers.

[Diarmuid]

It sounds to me like you want a little bit of everything and that's just really all that doable, especially at your level.

From what you've posted, I keep seeing the following theme: "Swordsman in lighter armor with some tricks up your sleeve"

This is a very easy thing to do, and a lot of it simply has to do with how you play your character.

A Rogue with some Fighter levels, dont wear heavy armor. You get the better BAB/HP/Combat Feats from Fighter, and can build up all of those skills you want.

Your character is not wholly defined by the class, abilities, stats, etc on his/her sheet. How you play the character, the tactics you take, the choice of weapons and bearing mean a lot more...especially at the level you're at.

[Douglas]

Have you looked at my Arcane Swordsage homebrew (link's in my sig) yet?


Adaptive Style + Heroics as a maneuver:

Ready Heroics, initiate Heroics to gain Martial Study for a long duration (hour/level or 24 hour, often even 10 min/level) spell buff. Use Adaptive Style to ready that and recover Heroics. Initiate the long duration buff. Dismiss the Heroics buff. Repeat.

This gets you buffs like Heart of X, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Protection from Energy/Energy Immunity, Greater/Superior Resistance, etc. by spending one maneuver known on Heroics. You can have any arcane Abjuration, Evocation, or Transmutation spell you need at the ready within two rounds for ultimate versatility.

Other than that, be sure to pick Ruby Ray of Reversal as one of your maneuvers.
That's why you house rule spells-as-maneuvers to only last one round.

[Vuann]

I realize it seems as if I'm trying to do everything, though that is not my intention. I guess I'm more worried about doing only one thing. I want a character that is able to adapt somewhat to any given situation instead of just relying on one tactic. I must also say that our Half Orc fighter isn't very tactical and doesn't always leave me in a situation to take advantage of flanking. He often moves to the front of the creature we're fighting without thought to leave an opening for me to take advantage of. Hopefully in time we can sort of work this out, though he's roleplaying stupid somewhat purposefully so it may never be an easy thing to rely on that.

Douglas, I have looked at your arcane swordsage idea and it's pretty much what I'm looking to do if given the opportunity. I don't care about casting full spells, I rather like the idea of having one round only spell like effects that can be chosen based on the situation. To me it seems the simplest way to make the swordsage be arcane in nature and keep him from being overpowered, but not a simple dex version of a Duskblade. For stances I was considering as you mentioned a simple spell that was on full time in that stance, or forgoing them altogether and just getting free feats in their place. That will be up to the DM.

I'd have been happy to play a regular swordsage, but given the situation it's either this method or skip it altogether. Without arcane swordsage option, I'm not sure what else I can go with that is similar in nature. Factotum seems pretty cool actually and it does fit with my background. My guy is intelligent due to spending a ton of his youth in the library of a Noble estate. Thus my concept was to be a very tactical and agile fighter instead of a lumbering brute.

[Endarire]

Clerics and Wizards still require rules knowledge to work well.

A Cleric is expected to focus on casting as well as melee, archery, or an Undead horde. I learned this the hard way. Have the Cleric read The 3.5 Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0).

A Wizard has a large range for optimization. Blasting is sometimes fun, but the non-damaging spells are usually the best. Emphasize this before he snuggles up with Treantmonk (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0).

[Vuann]

Wizard is focusing on transmutation and banned evocation so I think he's already on the right path.

[MammonAzrael]

Wizard is focusing on transmutation and banned evocation so I think he's already on the right path.

As long as Conjuration isn't his other banned school, I agree! :smallamused:

As for the extra info you so kindly provided...

So you're already locked into your first level of rogue, so that level and your stats and such are unchangeable. This is good to know.

I'd talk to you DM and see if he'd be ok with you retraining your TWF feat for Weapon Finesse or Power Attack.

From everything that I've read, it sounds like you really like ToB, but your DM is worried about it, and rightly so. I think you'd be best off just waiting on your ToB desires until you can get into another game (maybe a PbP game on these boards?) so you won't be prevented from exploring the Sublime Way, and you won't have to deal with a lot of house rules on top of a pre-existing character. I think you'd be ultimately happier that way. Swordsage can be a respectable dip for rogues, but ones that haven't dumped Wisdom are much better situated to take advantage of it. (Additionally, the way that initiator level works, I'd hold off on taking levels in swordsage until 3rd or even 5th level.)

As for your current rogue, I think 3 levels in Swashbuckler could be just what you're looking for. You'll be wearing light armor (and eventually a mithril breastplate), have a respectable BAB, better HD, and still a decent selection of skills. You will be a solid combatant, but you won't be limited.

One of your most versatile abilities is your access to the Use Magic Device skill. As you continue to play, pick up various wands. If your DM is open to letting you change your rogue level and to homebrew, I have to recommend the Fencer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100936).

Remember, you are very low level right now, so a certain amount of repetition is to be expected. Your option will open up as you keep playing and gaining access to more magic. Even your casters are quite limited at the moment. And a huge part of your versatility comes not from your character sheet, but from your own inventiveness. Do things out of the box, set up traps, roleplay, use items like Alchemist's Fire and Tanglefoot Bags.

[Vuann]

Well depending on how the swordsage arcane idea goes, I may just stick to a simpler build for now. He told me he may be open to allowing me to play a regular swordsage once we get a few more levels, so I could just progress my guy with that in mind so if I get the chance I can take it.

I also see a lot of potential with a factotum.. seems with the brains over brawn at level 3 I could even do a tripping build by combining my INT bonus with strength. Or I've also seen iajutsu focus being thrown around to add extra damage on the first attack of the round. Even without optimizing it seems I could easily have two short swords and as a move action on the first round get the bonus, then if I were to tumble into position or something on the next round I could pull my 2nd one out during my move action and get another bonus. Quick draw makes this even easier but it burns an extra feat.

Easiest method seems to be either rogue 3/swash 3 to pick up free weapon finesse and insightful strike, then go from there. Or do Rogue 3/Hit and Run Fighter 2 and hopefully be able to take a real swordsage at level 6. Then I could instantly pick up shadowblade or adaptive style and just go full swordsage from there if I'm allowed.

Thing about swash is while they get a few nice things and with daring outlaw you can progress SA damage, but they don't seem to get much else. A fighter will give me a ton more feats and swordsage later would give me assassin stance for extra SA damage putting me at +4d6.

Any other options based on this build you guys can suggest?