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BIGMamaSloth
2011-03-31, 09:21 AM
A little bird told me that privateer press is working on A whole new system for Iron Kingdoms instead of just using d20. Does anyone know if this is true? Have there been any official statements from privateer press or is this just a hopeful rumor?

Edit: Woops, I meant to put this in the 3.X subforum.

Kilbourne
2011-03-31, 10:36 AM
They've been hinting at this, mostly in the form of statements like, "oh, we're not changing to Pathfinder or 4E, we'd use our own system if we did... also, we're definitely not done doing Iron Kingdoms stuff."

So it's a little roundabout at this point, but you could safely assume they are working on their own IK system.

dsmiles
2011-03-31, 05:15 PM
Oooooohhhh, I sure hope they do come out with a new system!!!!! :smallbiggrin:

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-04, 08:47 PM
Oooooohhhh, I sure hope they do come out with a new system!!!!! :smallbiggrin:

Same. If only so that the Witchfire Trilogy (which I really want to play through) is re-written to include mechanika.

dsmiles
2011-04-04, 08:55 PM
Same. If only so that the Witchfire Trilogy (which I really want to play through) is re-written to include mechanika.Liber Mechanicka pretty much covers everything you need to know in order to add it in. I was about to run it with one of the characters being an Arcane Mechanick, and another being a Cleric of Cyriss. Mechanicka galore!! :smallbiggrin:

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-04, 09:38 PM
Liber Mechanicka pretty much covers everything you need to know in order to add it in. I was about to run it with one of the characters being an Arcane Mechanick, and another being a Cleric of Cyriss. Mechanicka galore!! :smallbiggrin:

I mean to reduce the load on the DM since every magical item in the module would have to be changed into a mechanikal item. I'm still newish to the IK setting, but I doubt Father Dumas would have those Cure X Wounds potions on him since the Character Guide mentions how divine spellcasters normally devote more time to their priestly duties than making and selling healing potions to adventurers.

dsmiles
2011-04-05, 04:31 AM
I mean to reduce the load on the DM since every magical item in the module would have to be changed into a mechanikal item. I'm still newish to the IK setting, but I doubt Father Dumas would have those Cure X Wounds potions on him since the Character Guide mentions how divine spellcasters normally devote more time to their priestly duties than making and selling healing potions to adventurers.
He might, then again, he might not. Throw in an alchemist's shop, there must be one or two in a city that size. Plus, alchemical healing is far more common than magical healing in IK anyways, so...it kind of makes sense to do it that way.

Ravens_cry
2011-04-05, 04:35 AM
I hope they make better gun rules. I mean, that's a huge appeal of the setting "We're Magitech Steampunk Fantasy, with Guns and Giant Robots!", but the gun rules make it so using a gun is probably more trouble then it is worth. This is admittedly second hand information based on description rather then perusing the actual rules, but it is a major complaint from what I have heard.

dsmiles
2011-04-05, 04:44 AM
I hope they make better gun rules. I mean, that's a huge appeal of the setting "We're Magitech Steampunk Fantasy, with Guns and Giant Robots!", but the gun rules make it so using a gun is probably more trouble then it is worth. This is admittedly second hand information based on description rather then perusing the actual rules, but it is a major complaint from what I have heard.The gun rules aren't that bad. A Craft: Firearms check to reload normally, and if in combat, a Concentration check as well (so as not to ruin the ammunition). Both with very low target DCs, low enough that a couple of ranks in each of those will usually mean you don't even need to roll. Most firearms are a standard action (per barrel) to reload. Some (I think the Clockwerk Arms Pepperbox, the Quad-Iron Pistol, and the Blunderbuss to be specific) require longer.

EDIT: They can be a little cumbersome, but they're actually pretty simple.

EDIT to the EDIT: I pretty much run a cross between IK and Slayers d20 as my homebrew campaign setting, so I'm fairly familiar with the IK rules.

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-05, 05:15 AM
What about costs? I seem to recall somewhere that guns and ammo were rather expensive compared to crossbows and such.

Ravens_cry
2011-04-05, 05:26 AM
And such a system is rather drastically more complex then archery, however 'simple' it may be. When your a Fighter type with probably only 2, or even less, skill points per level, having to make skill checks at all is pretty drastic. People talk about Feat taxes, well that's a Skill tax. Not to mention that reloading as a standard action by default means , barring rules I am not aware of, you can only shoot once every other turn. Realistic for muzzle loading powder muskets? Maybe. Fun? No.

dsmiles
2011-04-05, 05:52 AM
What about costs? I seem to recall somewhere that guns and ammo were rather expensive compared to crossbows and such.They are, but it's an expensive alchemical and magical process to make the red and black blasting powders. Firearms are still a pretty new concept to humanity at large. Elves and Rhulfolk have had them a little longer. Iosan Elves have it a little easier having only a single powder for their firearms. (Well, that's what it says in the WM fluff, it's not substantiated in the IK mechanics. Then again, Retribution of Scyrah didn't have an army when the IK sourcebooks were written, so...)


And such a system is rather drastically more complex then archery, however 'simple' it may be. When your a Fighter type with probably only 2, or even less, skill points per level, having to make skill checks at all is pretty drastic. People talk about Feat taxes, well that's a Skill tax. Not to mention that reloading as a standard action by default means , barring rules I am not aware of, you can only shoot once every other turn. Realistic for muzzle loading powder muskets? Maybe. Fun? No.Much like a heavy crossbow, eh? There's feats and PrC abilities that reduce loading time. And in actuality, a muzzle-loader would have to be really good to get off more than two shots in a minute, IRL. Many of the IK firearms are breach-loaders anyways, so a standard action is pretty good. Less than 6 seconds to crack it open, clear the chamber, and put in a bullet and the charge? That's still pretty quick. Pistoleers and Riflemen (PrCs) do it faster.

Also, I'm not one to talk about 'taxes.' Either skill or feat. I'm not an optimizer, and I play in a low-op group, so if I need a skill or feat to do something, I just put ranks in it or take it as needed. No biggie. It doesn't hurt my game any.

Ravens_cry
2011-04-05, 06:04 AM
And that is why using heavy crossbows past a certain level becomes, well terrible. I used a rifle in Pathfinder, used my DM wrangling skills so that rapid reload applied and made the move action to reload a cartridge was a free action and I still lagged behind a comparable bow user. I love thematics and role play, I too optimize fairly shallowly, but if you claim to be a great hunter and master rifle user, and you can't do significant damage, well, your crunch doesn't back up your fluff.

caden_varn
2011-04-05, 06:18 AM
The guns do a fair amount of damage per shot, and generally have good critical ranges and multipliers IIRC (AFB at the moment), so I have not seen a great issue with firearms being low on the damage front. As for skills, as previously mentioned you only need a couple of ranks, and if you don't want that, carry multiple guns and reload out of combat
The gunmage in my group does exactly that - 5 assorted pistols so far I think - so he gets a lot of shots before he runs out. Most combats are over before he needs to think about reloading.

I don't worry too much about weight though - so long as my group don't take the proverbial, I let it slide in the interests of enjoyment (my group are more roleplay than optimiser/rules lawyers types anyway so this isn't an issue).
Personally, I like to make the fun concepts playable enough to really be, well, fun, so I'm willing to be a bit flexible to help that along.

And tonight should be the last session for my group in the Witchfire modules. I'm going have to start writing my own stuff from now on :smalleek:

dsmiles
2011-04-05, 06:21 AM
And that is why using heavy crossbows past a certain level becomes, well terrible. I used a rifle in Pathfinder, used my DM wrangling skills so that rapid reload applied and made the move action to reload a cartridge was a free action and I still lagged behind a comparable bow user. I love thematics and role play, I too optimize fairly shallowly, but if you claim to be a great hunter and master rifle user, and you can't do significant damage, well, your crunch doesn't back up your fluff.
The damage output of most firearms is usually enough to make up the difference. Example: My last IK character was an unoptimized Gun Mage (medium BAB, casts like a bard with a different spell list). She was outpacing, in average damage per round, the mid-range-optimized barbarian, whose optimization was specifically for damage output. This makes me feel like guns are still a viable option.

EDIT: I never knew the UK had ninjas. :smalltongue:

Thinker
2011-04-05, 08:46 AM
Like crossbows, guns do well enough at low levels, but really lag behind as you go up a few levels.

caden_varn
2011-04-05, 09:50 AM
EDIT: I never knew the UK had ninjas. :smalltongue:

We get around... :smallbiggrin:

dsmiles
2011-04-05, 02:51 PM
Like crossbows, guns do well enough at low levels, but really lag behind as you go up a few levels.
I've never noticed that in IK. Carrying more guns helps tremendously, especially as a Pistoleer (PrC) or a Gun Mage (base class). Not so much with the Rifleman (PrC), but since I generally stay away from that PrC, I've never had a problem keeping up in average damage per round.

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-05, 10:04 PM
As long as you aren't using a stupidly-large brace of pistols, you could also add rune plates to your firearms (gun mages may not need to do this, I don't know) to give them magical properties (or just enchant them if you're using them in another setting). You'll still be spending a bit on accumulators to power them, but then so will the party beatstick unless he wants his sword to stop setting people on fire.

CotV
2011-04-05, 10:48 PM
This would be so cool! I'm such a fan of the PP stuff and have used monsters from Iron Kingdoms in my PF games.

dsmiles
2011-04-06, 05:04 AM
As long as you aren't using a stupidly-large brace of pistols, you could also add rune plates to your firearms (gun mages may not need to do this, I don't know) to give them magical properties (or just enchant them if you're using them in another setting). You'll still be spending a bit on accumulators to power them, but then so will the party beatstick unless he wants his sword to stop setting people on fire.
Gun Mages can, and they should, to get the enhancement bonuses. Magelocks aren't inherently enchanted to +whatever. But they don't suffer from the arcane erosion that a normal pistol does, when a Gun Mage starts shoving spell levels through it.

Also, the multiple barrel modification is AWESOME! My last Gun Mage's main bonded magelock was a twin barreled military pistol. She had several other bonded magelocks as backups. There were very few fights (after about 7th level) where she needed to reload. Before that, it was shoot & move followed by reload & move (sometimes followed by cast & move).

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-06, 08:02 AM
Ahk. My idea about gun mages not needing rune plates was from me thinking they were more on the caster side of a gish class. Stupid me - the 3/4 BAB should've clued me in otherwise.

Have the Iron Kingdoms gotten far enough to develop revolvers yet? Aside from Long Gunner rifles and those carbines that Trencher Commandos use? I remember near the end of the short-story in the front of the Mercenaries book, Caine's Spellstorm Pistols were described as revolvers but that might just be a mistake on the author's part since the models and artwork all make them look like normal magelock pistols (breach-loaded, single-round, etc).

I've been thinking the Rate of Fire: Infinite on eCaine's pistols was from him using a spell from No Quarter (since he's still paying Focus for each shot after the first), I remember reading about it somewhere; kind of a hands-free reloading spell. Still took just as long, but you could be firing a pistol in your other hand while the spell reloaded the first.

dsmiles
2011-04-06, 11:04 AM
Ahk. My idea about gun mages not needing rune plates was from me thinking they were more on the caster side of a gish class. Stupid me - the 3/4 BAB should've clued me in otherwise.

Have the Iron Kingdoms gotten far enough to develop revolvers yet? Aside from Long Gunner rifles and those carbines that Trencher Commandos use? I remember near the end of the short-story in the front of the Mercenaries book, Caine's Spellstorm Pistols were described as revolvers but that might just be a mistake on the author's part since the models and artwork all make them look like normal magelock pistols (breach-loaded, single-round, etc).

I've been thinking the Rate of Fire: Infinite on eCaine's pistols was from him using a spell from No Quarter (since he's still paying Focus for each shot after the first), I remember reading about it somewhere; kind of a hands-free reloading spell. Still took just as long, but you could be firing a pistol in your other hand while the spell reloaded the first.
Right on the first count. The only thing even resembling a revolver that I know of is the Clockwerk Arms Pepperbox, and that has it's own subset of rules.
As far as eCaine, I have no idea, I play Retribution. Their firearms are modeled with a revolver-like chambering mechanism, but it's not fluffed anywhere in the Retribution's Forces book.

Leon
2011-04-06, 11:14 AM
One was feature in one of the NQ articles - Firestorm i think it was called.

The New RP system will be along at some point - they have a lot more important stuff to get out first from what actually makes them a lot of money.

There is also talk of novels and such from Master Wordsmith Seacat.

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-06, 07:38 PM
Right on the first count. The only thing even resembling a revolver that I know of is the Clockwerk Arms Pepperbox, and that has it's own subset of rules.
As far as eCaine, I have no idea, I play Retribution. Their firearms are modeled with a revolver-like chambering mechanism, but it's not fluffed anywhere in the Retribution's Forces book.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Retribution have worked out a revolver mechanism, Cygnar's already done it with their Long Gunners and Trencher Commandos. Top image here (http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/058/7/9/Cygnar__Trenchers_by_Mr__Jack.jpg) is of the Commandos and I can't find artwork of the Long Gunners, but they've got a larger cylinder (probably due to higher calibre rounds). The fluff on them mentions that they need to pull a lever on top of the rifle to rotate the cylinder so I assume the Commandos' carbines have the same limitation.

dsmiles
2011-04-06, 07:46 PM
Yeah, that dude in the top pic and the left one in the center pic look like they have revolver-type rifles/carbines.

Here's the Dawnguard Invictor Leader:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_O-FYHeeq7A0/TCnpVj1GUtI/AAAAAAAAATw/Qu0SsgmoSLQ/s1600/invictor-leader.jpgYou may not be able to see it, but he's got the same type of chamber on his sword-gun.
And here's the Ghost Sniper, who appears to have a breach loader:
http://privateerpress.com/files/imagecache/1up/products/ghost-sniper.png

So, I'm guessing that the revolving chamber is a more recent development, and only a few people from a few factions have it.

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-06, 08:17 PM
Yeah, I've seen the artwork of the Dawnguard Invictors - flipped through a copy of the Retribution faction book a week or two ago - and I remember seeing that they had revolver mechanisms.

And now that I actually look at the artwork for pCaine again (that picture of him firing in all directions with the ghostly copies of his arms and pistols around him) they do look like they've got revolver cylinders on them. It's a little tricky to see here because of the watermark and the circle of runes, but here's the picture I'm talking about:

https://store.privateerpress.com/ProductImages/prints/andrea/MkII_Caine.jpg

Now I want to home-brew a revolver for IK. Either that or just steal the one Paizo came up with for their own setting.

dsmiles
2011-04-06, 08:22 PM
It's have to do less damage than (or have less range than) say, the military pistol. With primitive revolvers like that there's going to be a lot of gasses leaking out around the chamber. Which would give the bullet less velocity, since the compressed gasses are part of what really propels it out of the chamber.

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-06, 08:37 PM
Well the revolver in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting (this is from the version they published originally for 3.5, not the new one for their own system) does 1d6 damage, x2 crit, 60ft range increment, holds five shots, weighs five pounds and does both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage.

The pistol in the setting's identical, except for only being single-shot and being one pound lighter.

Don't have access to the IK firearms stats at the moment, so not sure how that shapes up to the military pistol.

dsmiles
2011-04-06, 08:42 PM
Well the revolver in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting (this is from the version they published originally for 3.5, not the new one for their own system) does 1d6 damage, x2 crit, 60ft range increment, holds five shots, weighs five pounds and does both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage.

The pistol in the setting's identical, except for only being single-shot and being one pound lighter.

Don't have access to the IK firearms stats at the moment, so not sure how that shapes up to the military pistol.I think the pathfinder pistol is acceptable as a revolver. Military pistol does 2d6 @ 80 ft and weighs in at like 5 or 6 pounds. I think it's 5 pounds, since my twin barreled military pistol weighed 7.5 pounds. The weight on the revolver sounds pretty good, different mechanisms and lighter metals might account for a weight equal to a breach loader.

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-06, 08:54 PM
Now to figure out where/how the hell a gun mage would get his hands on a magelock revolver. The only magelock weapons I know of aside from the normal ones used by Arcane Tempest Gun Mages and the Black 13th are Caine's Spellstorm Pistols and Kara Sloan's magelock sniper rifle and they both have excuses for their weapons.

dsmiles
2011-04-06, 08:58 PM
Now to figure out where/how the hell a gun mage would get his hands on a magelock revolver. The only magelock weapons I know of aside from the normal ones used by Arcane Tempest Gun Mages and the Black 13th are Caine's Spellstorm Pistols and Kara Sloan's magelock sniper rifle and they both have excuses for their weapons.

Black market? That's my best guess. (My Gun Mage got hers from the Iosan military. She did several missions for them, and they gave her the twin-barreled one. After she left their service, she got a wizard to examine it and copy the arcanicka used.)

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-07, 07:46 PM
The black market's a possibility. If he's in the military or ex-military he might have helped with field-testing such a complex device (assuming Cygnar was fielding gun mage squads in the era most IK campaigns start - the Warmachine books being set a few years after where the IK World Guide leaves off). Or maybe he just had an arcane mechanik friend who came up with a revolver (not a magelock one, just a normal one) and then... yeah, that one kind of falls over when I try to work out how he went from a normal revolver to a magelock one.

Anyone willing to run a PbP IK game? Either here or on Myth Weavers, though personally I'd prefer the latter since then the whole game's contained in its own sub-forum (and I don't know if these forums have gotten their own in-built dice roller yet).

dsmiles
2011-04-07, 07:53 PM
The black market's a possibility. If he's in the military or ex-military he might have helped with field-testing such a complex device (assuming Cygnar was fielding gun mage squads in the era most IK campaigns start - the Warmachine books being set a few years after where the IK World Guide leaves off). Or maybe he just had an arcane mechanik friend who came up with a revolver (not a magelock one, just a normal one) and then... yeah, that one kind of falls over when I try to work out how he went from a normal revolver to a magelock one.

Anyone willing to run a PbP IK game? Either here or on Myth Weavers, though personally I'd prefer the latter since then the whole game's contained in its own sub-forum (and I don't know if these forums have gotten their own in-built dice roller yet).
Hmm. An arcane mechanick should be able to make a magelock breach-loader, so why not a magelock revolver? After all, they get that invention thing at higher levels, right? (I forget what it's called.)

Sorry, I don't do PbP. I have too much other stuff going on between work, Warmachine, and my RL games. If one or two of my RL games quieted down for a while, PbP might be an option, but, as it stands now, I just can't. Sorry. :smallredface:

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-07, 08:07 PM
That's fine, I was just asking if anyone reading this thread was willing to run a game.

And I thought it was only the dwarves of a specific clan who knew how to make magelock weapons, or am I getting confused with some kind of unique steamjack components?

Leon
2011-04-07, 11:42 PM
I'd play - not really willing to DM a Online game when i have trouble keeping a real one stable

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-08, 04:12 AM
I've just been going over the Gun Mage class and while it's got Light Armour Proficiency, I'm not seeing any part of its rules that lets it ignore the ASF chance of light armour. Think this is an oversight?

dsmiles
2011-04-08, 04:55 AM
I've just been going over the Gun Mage class and while it's got Light Armour Proficiency, I'm not seeing any part of its rules that lets it ignore the ASF chance of light armour. Think this is an oversight?
I believe it was fixed either in Liber Mechanicka or in the errata. It should read the same as a bard's armored casting blurb. I've seen it, I just can't remember where.

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-08, 06:50 AM
From a quick google search, it looks like it used to be in an FAQ section of PP's website, which is now both missing the IKRPG section, but the errata that's posted in that section for Warmachine and Hordes is all for MK1.

I did find a thread on the PP forums saying that one piece of the errata was that gun mages could cast spells in light armour.

EDIT: Huh, just found this old thread (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=86087) with all of the errata stuff and a few other things.

dsmiles
2011-04-08, 07:03 AM
Yeah, my resources were pretty limited at the time of that posting. I was posting from my phone. :smallbiggrin:

ShadowFighter15
2011-04-08, 08:02 AM
Ahk, I thought you might've just had bad luck or something. Anyway, that thread doesn't cover everything, but probably enough to get DMs started. Any other stuff could just be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Cieyrin
2011-04-08, 10:33 AM
Hmm. An arcane mechanick should be able to make a magelock breach-loader, so why not a magelock revolver? After all, they get that invention thing at higher levels, right? (I forget what it's called.)

Mechanikal Innovation, available as a special ability at 16th for the LM Arcane Mechanik redux.


And I thought it was only the dwarves of a specific clan who knew how to make magelock weapons, or am I getting confused with some kind of unique steamjack components?

The Magelock metal alloy is a closely guarded Rhulic secret, though I'm sure the Iosans have perhaps found their own way of getting around that. As far as I've seen, the Magelock alloy has never been specified to belong to a specific Rhulic clan like the secret of Serricsteel belonging to Clan Serric. Though, I'm not up and up on recent developments in IK, as well as I'm not fiscally able to really play Warmachine, so there could have been a shift on that front.