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View Full Version : [3.5] Is this balanced (against the Incantatrix) ?



Amiria
2011-03-31, 03:28 PM
Basically, Amiria's (the PC, which is me ... it is complicated :smalltongue:) personal prestige class; a modification of the 3.5 Incantatrix (PGtF). The result is the Metamuter (or Metransmuter ?) Inspired by the fact that in AD&D the Extension spell (something like early Metamagic) was in the Alteration / Transmutation school.

Entry requirements

Skills: As Incantatrix, + Knowledge (History) 4 ranks
Feats: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Transmutation), any one metamagic feat
Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level Transmutation spells of the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list

Basic Class Features

Hit Die: As Incantatrix
Base Attack Bonus: As Incantatrix
Saving Throws: As Incantatrix
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As Incantatrix
Spells per day/Spells known: As Incantatrix
Skill Points: As Incantatrix
Class Skills: As Wizard

Unique Class Features

01st: Bonus Metamagic Feat
02nd: Cooperative Metamagic (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
03rd: -
04th: Bonus Metamagic Feat
------Metamagic Effect (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
05th: Metamagic Spell Trigger (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
06th: Instant Metamagic 1/day (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
07th: Bonus Metamagic Feat
08th: -
09th: Instant Metamagic 2/day (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
10th: Bonus Metamagic Feat
------Improved Metamagic

Quick Overview of changes

Not: Focused Study, Seize Concentration, Snatch Spell
Restricted: Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, Metamagic Spell Trigger, Instant Metamagic
Other differences: different entry requirements (mainly pertaining feats); keeps the Wizard spell list; Metamagic Effect 1 level later; Instant Metamagic 1/day 1 level earlier

[hr]
The gist is that I don't have to take the Iron Will feat, that I don't have to give up a(nother) school of magic and that I keep the Wizard skill list.

For that I give up 2 class features completely and (severely) restrict 4 others to Transmutation spells.

Balanced (against the RAW Incantatrix) or not ?

erikun
2011-03-31, 04:50 PM
This might be better in the homebrew section.

The brokenness of the 3.5e Incantatrix lies in its Improved Metamagic ability. At the least, being able to stack any number of +1 metamagic feats onto every spell without restriction is impressive. Some interpret the ability as reducing +0 metamagic to -1 metamagic, which means you can put high-cost metamagic on the spell effectively for free. An Incantatrix who has all of his spells Quickened at the same level is obviously rediculously powerful.

In that sense, your class is about as powerful as the Incantatrix. You don't seem to have limited Improved Metamagic to just Transmutation, and even if you did, there wouldn't be anything stopping a Wizard from just applying it to Baleful Polymorph or something similar and tossing them out repeatedly.

As for other abilities, I am not sure what Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, or Metamagic Spell Trigger is supposed to do, as you didn't explain them and they aren't part of the Incantatrix class. Your class takes 3 feats to enter and gives 4 free feats, which is on par with the Incantatrix (which takes 2 and gives 3). You've taken away a few of the odd Incantatrix powers, and while they are handy, they probably don't apply most of the time anyways.

Amiria
2011-03-31, 05:19 PM
Not sure if it should really be homebrew, it is just some simple modifications done to a well-known (infamous) prestige class.

I know that Improved Metamagic is very powerful. I don't interpret the ability as reducing +0 metamagic to -1 metamagic, not sure if that was in the erata anyway. However, the Arcane Thesis feat (PHB2) allows that as far a I'm aware.

From what I've read, Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect are also "brokenly" good and restricting them to just Transmutation spells reduces quite a few options there.



As for other abilities, I am not sure what Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, or Metamagic Spell Trigger is supposed to do, as you didn't explain them and they aren't part of the Incantatrix class.

:smallconfused: They are part of the Incantatrix class. I'm talking about the 3.5 Incantatrix which is in Player's Guide to Faerūn (PGtF), not the 3.0 version from Magic of Faerūn (MoF) which you can find at the online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803).

erikun
2011-03-31, 06:48 PM
They are part of the Incantatrix class. I'm talking about the 3.5 Incantatrix which is in Player's Guide to Faerūn (PGtF), not the 3.0 version from Magic of Faerūn (MoF) which you can find at the online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803).
Ah, I was looking at the online version, so that would be my mistake. That said, I did point out that limiting the abilities to only Transmutation spells wouldn't weaking the class very much. They would have some trouble using save-or-lose against shapeshifters, but otherwise have no problem turning opponents into guppies or allies into dragons.

sreservoir
2011-03-31, 07:38 PM
I do believe Improved Metamagic limits to +1; mostly, only alternate payment and Arcane Thesis, and either Easy or Practical allow reduction to 0 that I know of.

this is certainly weaker than the standard Incantatrix, though limiting to transmutation doesn't really reduce the power of persisting buffs (which are mostly transmutation, and are basically the only things worth affecting with metamagic after they're cast) much.

however, it is possibly even worse-balanced; it is basically no-brainer after Master Specialist 1, which grants SF (Spellcraft), and Master Specialist is already almost no-brainer for anyone with Spell Focus. bonus feats and familiar progression are the only reasons to stay in wizard, and this grants bonus feats, and faster, with basically no drawbacks. the only cost is SF (Transmutation).

Amiria
2011-04-01, 05:05 AM
I'm not sure if Transmutation is really "The" buff school to go with Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect. Abjuration and to a slightly lesser extent Divination also have many buffs.

"Certainly weaker" and "possibly even worse-balanced" seem to clash somehow.


bonus feats and familiar progression are the only reasons to stay in wizard, and this grants bonus feats, and faster, with basically no drawbacks. the only cost is SF (Transmutation).

I see that as a Specialist Wizard (Transmuter) going into Master Specialist there is no significant feat tax. About the other stuff, you can say the same thing about Incantatrix then. :smallcool:

Aspenor
2011-04-01, 07:36 AM
Improved Metamagic has a lower limit of +1 level. You can't use it to stack +1s on for +0, nor can you use it to use +0 to get -1.

The brokenness of Incantrix lies in Metamagic Effect.

sreservoir
2011-04-01, 03:18 PM
I'm not sure if Transmutation is really "The" buff school to go with Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect. Abjuration and to a slightly lesser extent Divination also have many buffs.

"Certainly weaker" and "possibly even worse-balanced" seem to clash somehow.


incantatrix at least has some sort of lasting cost (focused study), even if you can mostly work around it. this is outright better than straight wizard with a feat tax that you basically get back at 1, and accelerated feat progression.


I see that as a Specialist Wizard (Transmuter) going into Master Specialist there is no significant feat tax. About the other stuff, you can say the same thing about Incantatrix then. :smallcool:

and if you're going into this anyway, there is no point in not going master specialist, since master specialist is also outright better than straight wizard if you need skill focus (spellcraft) anyway.

incantatrix, at least, has a negligible cost.