Spontaneous class for Ultimate Magus

[Larpus]

Hey everyone, some of you have answered quite an amount of questions that I had concerning Sorcerers in another thread, and I am very thankful for that.

However, I still have more things to consider and such things deviate away from Sorcerers, so I decided to make it a new thread instead.

As some of you might've got from my last thread, currently I'm playing as a Wizard (level 5 so far) and I plan on becoming an Ultimate Magus. My DM suggested me to go Sorcerer as they fit better with the world and story (since they don't need a bazillion years of training and all that), however I still feel like taking a look at my other options and, not having any actual experience on spontaneous casters, my considerations for each class might be off, so I thought it would be nice to ask other people on their inputs.

Now, my character's base concept is thirst for knowledge, especially arcane knowledge and, as a side-effect, power, which is why I'm going UM. Also, for the spontaneous spells, I'm thinking of leaving them as a mix of blasting and some utility spells (that need to be cast on the spot, such as Web, Color Spray or Grease).

For the build is going to be Wizard-focused, pumping everything so I can get as high as I can for Wizard levels, with the spontaneous levels being secondary. Also, I guess it's a good idea to post my numbers, which are:
STR 08
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 19
WIS 13
CHA 17

Don't worry about my low Con, it's mainly for flavor (my character is very, very skinny and physically weak) and my DM allowed me to apply Mind Over Body at every level as opposed of just the first one (so, HP-wise it's as if I had 18 Con).

Now for the possibilities:

Bard
Pros:
- Slightly better HD
- More skills
- Different and very nice spell list
- Many known spells
- Bardic Music is nice
- Makes my Reflex save a bit better
- Armor and Shield proficiencies
- Weapon proficiencies

Cons:
- Makes me waste a level to get the spells
- Worst spells per day progression
- Cha based
- Makes almost no sense RP-wise
- Penalty to casting to apply metamagic

Beguiler
Pros:
- Slightly better HD
- More skills
- Int based
- Many known spells
- Armor and Shield proficiencies
- Weapon proficiencies

Cons:
- Armored Mage is useless as they don't apply to Wizard spells
- Spell list is not exactly a prime for what I had in mind, but is far from the worst
- Doesn't make much sense RP-wise, but not as bad as Bard
- Penalty to casting to apply metamagic

Duskblade
Pros:
- Considerably better HD
- Arcane Attunement is nice
- Makes my Fort save a bit better
- Int based
- Slight bonus for my BAB
- Armor and Shield proficiencies
- Weapon proficiencies
- Other than the needed training time, makes perfect sense RP-wise

Cons:
- Armored Mage is still useless
- Worst spell list of all (doesn't seem to work well without Arcane Channeling or decent BAB)
- Second worst amount of spells per day
- Penalty to casting to apply metamagic

Sorcerer
Pros:
- Potentially, the second best spell list (loses to the Bard)
- I'll trade the Familiar so I can metamagic without increasing the casting
- Out of the options, makes the most sense RP-wise

Cons:
- Few known spells
- Cha based

Warmage
Pros:
- Slightly better HD
- Warmage Edge is pretty nice
- Amor and Shield proficiencies
- As with Duskblade, other than needed training time, makes sense RP-wise

Cons:
- Armored Mage still doesn't really work
- Second worst spell list of all, after Duskblade (way too blasty)
- Cha based
- Very few known spells, almost to Sorcerer levels
- Penalty to casting to apply metamagic

This is what I've managed to gather and consider on my own, if anyone has any correction or consideration, please to so.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Tvtyrant]

I would suggest Beguiler myself for its greater flexibility in spell selection and because as a Wizard you already get most of the spells a Sorc does. Warmage is just blasting, so I suggest if you want to go that way just pick Sorc. Bard spells are good but already covered by the Wizard and they don't know enough to really add a whole lot, especially as you don't get their class abilities.

[Keld Denar]

Beguiler is about the strongest choice, in most cases, simply due to the fact that it is SAD. Then again, you have the Cha score to keep Sorcerer relevant, especially if you pack most of your spells with relevant saves on the Wizard side. You're probably only taking one level, so Bard isn't gonna be really useful. Warmage, well, unless you are utilizing it primarily for flinging Magic Missile and Lesser Orbs, you're save DCs are again gonna be pretty tragic.

Question...are you doing the Practiced Spellcaster shananigans to put most of your levels on your Wizard side? Its highly recommended.

[erikun]

Beguiler (for Intelligence synergy) or Bard (for fun stuff like Disguise Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#disguiseSpell)) would be my top recommendations.

Duskblade seems like the worst choice, especially as you'd need to be in melee to use it. You might want to ask your DM if you can use Duskblade spells through a longbow, if that's your choice. On the plus side, you could get some 0% Arcane Spell Failure armor and a nice shield without any problems.

Warmage is... a bad Sorcerer. The biggest benefit is that the Warmage knows the entire spell list, which isn't that helpful for the Ultimate Magus's abilities.

Most UMs I've used take Wizard 4/X 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5 or something similar, with the Archmage levels increasing Wizard spellcasting. If you apply the Practiced Manifester to your X class, then you could (by interpretation) pull off the build with only three Wizard casting levels lost. The lost levels are spread out as well, so you're not going 3 levels without any new spells.

[Keld Denar]

A not-so-optimial option could actually be Spellthief. It looks kinda bulky, given the fact that you need 4 levels of ST just to qualify for UM (since they don't get casting for a LONG time), but then you sit down and take a look at the Master Spellthief feat, and how it interacts with the two classes, and how they interact with Ultimate Magus.

You could probably build something like Spellthief4/Wizard1/UM10, using Sanctum Spell to cheat into UM with only 1 Wizard level. Put 10/10 levels in Wizard and 7/10 levels in ST...

If I did the math right, by level 15, when you finish UM, you'd have a Wizard CL of 25, and a Spellthief CL of 25, including the bonuses you get from UM. You'll be 4 levels behind on actual spellcasting, but you'll be really hard to dispel and you'll have NO problem with SR. Plus, 4 levels of ST allow you to convert stolen spell energy into your own spells, giving you MUCH more oomph per day.

[Psyren]

Note that lorewise, Beguilers ARE sorcerers, at least in Faerun:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070214

So you really lose nothing by making one a UM RP-wise - all the fluff can still fit perfectly.

[Thurbane]

If you want go Beguiler/Wizard, and get to make the most of Armored Mage, you can take a dip in the Urban Savant PrC (Cityscpe), that allows any arcane caster to cast in light armor with no ASF. The reqs require Bardic Knowledge or Lore, but offer the option of substituting ranks in Kowledge (history).

[Kaeso]

If I were you, I'd make a specialised wizard, either a conjuror or transmuter, that bans illusion and enchantment, and then take beguiler when you go Ultimate Magus.

;) The beguiler's spell list is almost completely illusion and enchantment based, so you don't really lose anything while still getting the benefits of specializing as a wizard.

[elonin]

This is exactly what I recommend. (previous post)

[Thefurmonger]

If I were you, I'd make a specialised wizard, either a conjuror or transmuter, that bans illusion and enchantment, and then take beguiler when you go Ultimate Magus.

;) The beguiler's spell list is almost completely illusion and enchantment based, so you don't really lose anything while still getting the benefits of specializing as a wizard.

^This^

I wish I had more to add, but really just do this.

[Amoren]

Spell Thief actually makes a strong case. There's an alternate class feature for it from... I can't remember where (a dragon magazine, maybe?) but it gives your spell thief the casting of a bard in exchange for a lower skill point list and I think your first sneak attack die. However, I think you still keep Spell Steal (technically) so you can take Master Spellthief.

The result? You have a one level spontaneous caster class which has the same level as your wizard spell casting + spell thief casting level, and the same in reverse. Every level you apply spellcasting to your lowest spellcasting class, you can apply it to your wizard one since they're always even in spellcasting level. This makes Ultimate Magus a 10/10 spellcasting progression for your Wizard Casting, and 7/10 for your spellthief casting.

I did the calculations once, and I had a level 20 wizard/spellthief/UM/something else that advances wizard levels to get over 30 spell casting level without items, and you'd have all the spells known and per day as a level 19 wizard and level 8 bard.

[Psyren]

If I were you, I'd make a specialised wizard, either a conjuror or transmuter, that bans illusion and enchantment, and then take beguiler when you go Ultimate Magus.

;) The beguiler's spell list is almost completely illusion and enchantment based, so you don't really lose anything while still getting the benefits of specializing as a wizard.

Indeed - and you will feel like a true "Ultimate Magus!"

[Keld Denar]

Spell Thief actually makes a strong case. There's an alternate class feature for it from... I can't remember where (a dragon magazine, maybe?) but it gives your spell thief the casting of a bard in exchange for a lower skill point list and I think your first sneak attack die. However, I think you still keep Spell Steal (technically) so you can take Master Spellthief.

WHERE IS THIS!?!?!?!?!? I have to know. That is a pretty freakin awesome ACF!

[dextercorvia]

Dragon 353 apparently. Discussed here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9244.25;wap2)

[gorfnab]

Another option would be to use a prestige class that has its own casting in conjunction with Ultimate Magus. One build I've seen work is Spellthief 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination - CC) 5/ Knight of the Weave 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ X 3 (Incantatrix, Archmage, Unseen Seer, or something full casting). With the Master Spellthief feat this can lead to a very interesting CL. Another build that would work in this case is Wizard (Spontaneous Divination - CC) 5/ Master Specialist 2/ Nar Demonbinder 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Master Specialist 2. And then there is the CL monstrosity of Bard 1/ Spellthief (with Master Spellthief feat) 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination - CC) 5/ Knight of the Weave 1/ Ultimate Magus 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Ultimate Magus 8.

[Uncle Casw]

why dread necromancer (heroes of horror) is not an option?

[dextercorvia]

why dread necromancer (heroes of horror) is not an option?

It's not bad if you are playing as a Naenhoon Illumian, but other than that, it is MAD. Beguiler offers the same sort of casting with Int sadness.

[Malbordeus]

its not too much of a stretch to hit assasin for Ultimate Magus, some pretty good sneaky spells.

[Eldariel]

Nar Demonbinder [Unapproachable East] is the best option for UM far as maximizing the progression of both sides goes; you get 8th level spells from Nar Demonbinder and 9ths from Wizard that way. Other than that, yeah, Beguiler is good. But with that Charisma? SAD isn't that big a deal; go Nar Demonbinder.

[Darth Stabber]

Are you a specialist? If so look at what you've banned. If you've banned illusion and enchantment beguiler is fantastic. If you banned necromancy than dread necromancer is good. If you banned evocation, still don't take warmage. Duskblade is okay if you are going to get arcane channeling, but that is a much better trick in gestalt (too many lost wiz caster levels). Nar Demonbinder is kinda cheesy for UM. Sorcerer is the most friendly option, unless you have enchantment, illusion, or necromancy on your banned list, then beguiler or DN gets a much higher rating. DN requires you to pay attention to your charisma, since necromancy has lots of save or X type effects, but your charisma is already good so it's not a big deal (if you can squeeze tomb-tainted soul into your build you need never worry about healing again).

[Larpus]

If you want go Beguiler/Wizard, and get to make the most of Armored Mage, you can take a dip in the Urban Savant PrC (Cityscpe), that allows any arcane caster to cast in light armor with no ASF. The reqs require Bardic Knowledge or Lore, but offer the option of substituting ranks in Kowledge (history).
That sure is nice to know, as a matter of fact, we are playing in Faêrun! I'll talk to my DM and see what he says.


Well, thanks for all the answers so far, quite a few tings to consider and think about.

Did not know about that alternative feature about Spell Thief, it doesn't make sense for this character, but I'll be sure to keep it in mind for future builds.

About specialization, I'm a Divination specialist, reason being that in this particular campaign Necromancy as a whole is a huge taboo, to the point that doing it might anger the gods and all that, so I saw little point in not dropping it but, since I did not plan for UM, I got Divination since it's the only school that only asks for a single prohibited one. Not optimal, but it's not so bad, no complaints about that.

For that reason and the fact that the character is LN (leaning towards good), Dread Necromancer and Nar Demonbringer aren't options at all, though they both sound quite delicious and I'll certainly revisit in an evil campaign.

So, I guess it gutters my choices down to Beguiler or Sorcerer...speaking of which, am I the only one to find funny that the Beguiler does not have Prestidigitation (and couple others, but this one caught my eye) on the spell list?

Also, yes, I'll be using the Practiced Spellcaster trick to achieve the spell level of either a lvl17 or 18 Wizard, probably 17 so I can access lvl5 spells of the spontaneous caster class. Also, I'm planning the build mainly for mid levels (as in, up to 15 or so), but if I do go beyond that, I plan on getting levels on Inchantrix, as it sounds like it has a nice synergy with UM, is there another full caster PrC that goes well with that to finish up those 4 final levels?

[Darth Stabber]

Dread necromancer is any non-good, and if you are LN that's perfect, the last time I played DN my char was LN (and a devote priestess of we jas, but that's greyhawk).

[gorfnab]

About specialization, I'm a Divination specialist, reason being that in this particular campaign Necromancy as a whole is a huge taboo, to the point that doing it might anger the gods and all that, so I saw little point in not dropping it but, since I did not plan for UM, I got Divination since it's the only school that only asks for a single prohibited one. Not optimal, but it's not so bad, no complaints about that.

Definitely consider the Spontaneous Divination ACF (Complete Champion). It is awesome for Divination users. Another option would be to go with the Focused Specialist ACF (Complete Mage) and just ban another school. Actually combine these two ACFs and have Evocation and Necromancy as your banned schools and you should be set.



So, I guess it gutters my choices down to Beguiler or Sorcerer...speaking of which, am I the only one to find funny that the Beguiler does not have Prestidigitation (and couple others, but this one caught my eye) on the spell list?

Beguiler would be the easier way to go since it will keep everything Int based and also get you some nicer class skills. However you Cha is pretty decent so Sorcerer would be okay. You could keep you Wizard side utility based and the Sorcerer side more combat based. Beguiler gets the same number of spells as a Sorcerer however their list is already chosen. Tough call.

I once played a build that was going to be Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 2/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Unseen Seer 1 - with the Master Spellthief and Craven feats and the Spontaneous Divination and Focused Specialist ACFs. Too bad that campaign only lasted until level 5 because I was already starting to become fairly sneaky in a covert ops kind of way.



Also, yes, I'll be using the Practiced Spellcaster trick to achieve the spell level of either a lvl17 or 18 Wizard, probably 17 so I can access lvl5 spells of the spontaneous caster class. Also, I'm planning the build mainly for mid levels (as in, up to 15 or so), but if I do go beyond that, I plan on getting levels on Inchantrix, as it sounds like it has a nice synergy with UM, is there another full caster PrC that goes well with that to finish up those 4 final levels?

Incantatrix is a great option however its prereqs are steep. Divine Oracle (Complete Divine) might be an option to consider especially since you're a Divination specialist.