Chameleon or Pure factotum

[Major]

Alright, alright, I KNOW we've had threads like this. And people have argued about it. And I've read both sides.

However I created this so I could actually comment, question, and discuss it myself.

Details first: I'm a Changeling factotum level 1 at the moment. The game hasn't started so it isn't too late to change my feat.

I was considering going Chameleon (the usual, level 8 factotum, 10 chameleon, etc)

However, I've heard arguments that a pure factotum is better. Now I want to get a few opinions.

Advantages to pure factotum
-Cunning Brilliance means more abilities to copy
-Improved Cunning Defense: More AC
-Arcane Dillettante: I can't reuse a spell, but I get MORE higher level spells (1 seventh and potential seven sixs or lower.) Plus they are SLA
-Better saves
-A useful level one feat
-More skills

Advantages to adding Chameleon
-Ability boon. A potential +6 intelligence or any stat of my choice
-floating feat: a new feat each day. Very useful.
-At level 15 cast as CL 20


Now, factotum gets more. But the question is do the floating feat and +6 to a stat outweigh the rest?

[TroubleBrewing]

Nope. Plain and simple. JaronK summed it up pretty well here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9869060&postcount=4)

[Major]

Yeah I saw that post and was leaning more towards pure factotum anyways. Maybe one level of master of masks.

Edit: On a side note what feats would you recommend for a factotum?

Other than font of inspiration (I'll take that eventually).

I picked my level 1 feat as "faerie mystery initiate."

[JaronK]

Some solid Factotum feats:

Knowledge Devotion (note: this will eat a LOT of your skillpoints, but is great with archery)
Craft Wonderous Item (you've got the CL and spells to do it)
Craft Scroll (to give you the utility spells on days you didn't memorize them)
Imperious Command (amazing against anyone who's not fear immune)
Darkstalker (otherwise hiding is useless at higher levels)
EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor (if you plan to use Iaijutsu Focus for damage... note that gnomes can get this for free via the Complete Warrior rules on racial exotic weapons)
Item Familiar (what it does for skills is incredible, in addition to other boosts)
Mindsight (if you took a Mindbender dip, which you easily qualify for)
Manyshot (it you wanted to focus more on archery)

JaronK

[Major]

Some solid Factotum feats:

Knowledge Devotion (note: this will eat a LOT of your skillpoints, but is great with archery)
Craft Wonderous Item (you've got the CL and spells to do it)
Craft Scroll (to give you the utility spells on days you didn't memorize them)
Imperious Command (amazing against anyone who's not fear immune)
Darkstalker (otherwise hiding is useless at higher levels)
EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor (if you plan to use Iaijutsu Focus for damage... note that gnomes can get this for free via the Complete Warrior rules on racial exotic weapons)
Item Familiar (what it does for skills is incredible, in addition to other boosts)
Mindsight (if you took a Mindbender dip, which you easily qualify for)
Manyshot (it you wanted to focus more on archery)

JaronK

I'm not sure how much knowledge I'll be using unless I can find a way to boost my skill points. We'll see. I'm not archery based cause I'm doing lots of tumble, iaijutsu focus, etc. Archery is back up.

Craft wondrous item isn't bad, but crafting takes a pretty long amount of time. Not sure there will be crafting time. I'll talk to the DM.

Imperious Command isn't fitting my character sadly. She has some nice intimidate boost and such, but she doesn't use it that much. I might set that as a backup.

Darkstalker: I don't have much hiding abilities, but I'll list that as a backup as well.

EWP: thinking of going one level of master of mask, so I won't need that unless I change my mind.

Item familiar: I'll have to look at that one. I'll admit I don't recall the item familiar rules very well. Plusing picking one item will be a pain since the character has 100 items >.> She started as a lone solo adventurer who packed lots of things in order to always be prepared.

Mindsight: I'll have to look at Mindbender and mindsight. I'm going almost pure factotum though. So unless a one level dip is ok, I probably won't do it (I want the 19 levels of factotum). Unless this game goes epic in which case sure.

Manyshot: Not as archery focused.

------------

Thanks for these suggestions. They let me consider future options.

Edit: Sheet at moment. I sent a message asking about flaws
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=287115

Opinions on how many fonts of inspiration?

[JaronK]

Mindbender is a one level long class, so that's not a huge issue. As for crafting, consider getting a Dedicated Wight, which uses your crafting ability but does the grunt work itself.

JaronK

[Optimator]

I always think about it like this: If you want skills, go Factotum. If you want abilities, go Chameleon.

[Major]

Mindbender is a one level long class, so that's not a huge issue. As for crafting, consider getting a Dedicated Wight, which uses your crafting ability but does the grunt work itself.

JaronK

Alright would you recommend Mindbender or Master of Mask?

Dedicated Wight? I'll have to look that one up. Not heard of that one.

If I use the dedicated wight it won't be usable for craft wonderous item or craft magic arms and armor will it? Since I need to cast the spells.

[Urpriest]

Alright would you recommend Mindbender or Master of Mask?

Dedicated Wight? I'll have to look that one up. Not heard of that one.

If I use the dedicated wight it won't be usable for craft wonderous item or craft magic arms and armor will it? Since I need to cast the spells.

Dedicated Wright actually. It's a type of Homunculus, from Eberron Campaign Setting I believe. And you don't need to stick around casting the spells, if you cast them once it can do the rest of the crafting.

[JaronK]

That's the whole thing... you provide the necessary spells and feats, and it does the work for you (allowing you to adventure while leaving it in your portable hole to craft stuff, or something similar). It's in one of the Eberron books.

As for which to take, I rarely find I need more than one exotic weapon, and it's usually the Quickrazor if I'm a melee focused Factotum. As such, I usually just go as a Whispergnome (for the free proficiency as well as great stealth boosts and decent stats) and get it that way... and I'd much prefer Mindsight. But if stealth isn't your game, maybe you should make a different choice.

JaronK

[Major]

I'll look up the mindbender. I just looked up the Dedicated Wright. Damn that could be nice.

I'd be very feat limited unless he adds flaws.

At 3 I'd need to take one of the craft wonderous items
At 6 I'd need craft magic arms and armor
At 9 I could take craft construct and make it.

That leaves me with my 12, 15, and 18 feats (most likely for font of inspiration)

[Major]

Just read mindsight and that could be useful...anything within 100 feet I am aware of...

Still I'm a Chameleon not a whisper gnome so I won't have an EWP if I take it (or I have to spend a feat)

If I spend a feat for EWP: Whisper gnome that leaves me with the following build.

1. faerie mysteries iniatiate
3. Craft wonderous items
6. Craft Arms and armor
9. Craft construct
12. Mindsight
15. EWP: Whisper gnome
18. ???

(not necessarily that order)

However it seems that if I don't take EWP early its wasted. If I take it early I delay crafting. If I get mindsight I NEED ewp.

[Engine]

@JaronK
No Font of Inspiration? I'm currently playing a Factotum and I chose that feat two times (my character is 4th level now). Do you think it's not a good investment for a pure Factotum?

[Major]

Honestly for various reasons I don't think I'll do the mindsight build.

I'll probably go...

1. faerie mysteries initiate (passion)
3. craft wonderous item
6. craft magic arms and armor (Master of Mask, Gladiator Mask and Angel Mask)
9. Craft construct

**At this point crafting finally starts**

12. font of inspiration
15. font of inspiration
18. font of inspiration

Using this build gives me not only the ability to craft most magic items for the party (and do it while adventuring and thus regaining lost exp) but a decent amount of inspiration. By the end I'd have 14 inspiration points which can be used quite nicely.

If the DM lets us take flaws I'll take quick draw and two-weapon fighting. Quick draw is only as a pre-req for skill tricks while two-weapon fighting gives an extra gnome quickrazor thus an extra Iaijutsu focus or an extra sneak attack damage depending on what I spend my points on.

By having two-weapon fighting it means each standard action would give two attacks and as such two iaijutsu focus (assuming I understand two-weapon fighting correctly I don't normally use it).

Thus a full attack would have 4 attacks, followed by up to four standard actions each with two attacks (12 attacks, all iaijutsu focus) or I can spend it all on sneak attack damage and get 4 attacks at 18d6.

In addition to gnomish quickrazor I was told there is a "craft your own weapon" options in one of the books (am looking for it). By having all exotic weapon proficiencies I can make my own overpowered exotic weapon.

So how does that build look?

[KitTheOdd]

If you go Chameleon you will probably almost always go Arcane and/or Divine. Factotum alone probably beats all other options. So, do you want to be a Mystic Theurge? I actually played one Fact8/Cham10 and he worked pretty well - the party is high powered (18th level), but not cheesy optimization level. Careful spell selection and Stat bonuses covered most of the weakness of topping out at 6th level spells. However, keep in mind that that can be very dependent on the party level of optimization.

To boost skill points, consider taking the Changeling Rogue 1 racial substitution level for 1st level. (10+Int)x4 Sp at 1st level. You lose trapfinding for some social skill benefits, but Factotum gives trapfinding, so you come out ahead on that. If you do that, keep in mind that Rogue 2 gives Evasion - that may or may not be worth it. A lot of it depends on when you get certain options. You can get Evasion through a ring - but not nearly as soon as 2nd level.

[MeeposFire]

Two weapon fighting does not allow for extra attacks on a standard action by itself. You only get the extra attack on a full attack action. It is an unfortunate limitation of two weapon fighting (though you do not take two weapon fighting penalties on standard action attacks since you are not using two weapon fighting at that time).

[Major]

Two weapon fighting does not allow for extra attacks on a standard action by itself. You only get the extra attack on a full attack action. It is an unfortunate limitation of two weapon fighting (though you do not take two weapon fighting penalties on standard action attacks since you are not using two weapon fighting at that time).

See this is what I thought, but I couldn't find a source for this. Could I get the source cause I thought that then someone told me otherwise.

[Bugbeartrap]

While crafting is super awesome for expanding WBL and customizing your gear, if you wont be able to craft until you get your dedicated wright (at level 9) due to time constraints, I would much rather pick feats that are fun and buy my gear. If crafting is necessary to get the specific items you want, take leadership for an artificer cohort who will get all that crafting stuff for free. For a factotum to spend 3 feats on crafting seems... confining.

Some fun feats for a factotum include Manticore Sting (like Many shot for handheld thrown items, without the lame pre reqs) from Players guide to Eberron(?).

[Major]

Well I'm trying to fill the party crafter slot. Cause we have a scout and a fighter so far.

So two crafting feats (wonderous and magic arms and armor) are for the party and money making.

The last one construct helps me speed up crafting and without wasting time. If I have time to craft normally cool, the construct can craft something else. If I don't have time then it fills the slot.

Plus factotum's mostly run around with font of inspiration and are broad enough that I can use these craft feats.

I don't know if I'd have time or not, but either way having constructs is useful.

[Particle_Man]

How is a pure Factotum able to craft anything? He doesn't have a caster level and his spell-like abilities can't be used to sub for spells in crafting items.

Anyhow, I would take Font of Inspiration as much as possible, before any other feat.

[Major]

Two weapon fighting does not allow for extra attacks on a standard action by itself. You only get the extra attack on a full attack action. It is an unfortunate limitation of two weapon fighting (though you do not take two weapon fighting penalties on standard action attacks since you are not using two weapon fighting at that time).

Nevermind my source request. I got it.


How is a pure Factotum able to craft anything? He doesn't have a caster level and his spell-like abilities can't be used to sub for spells in crafting items.

Anyhow, I would take Font of Inspiration as much as possible, before any other feat.

How do you figure? Your caster level is equal to your factotum level.

Source: Dungeonscape


At the start of each day, choose a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list based on your factotum level. You can choose one spell at 2nd level, and you gain additional spells as shown on Table 1–1. The maximum level of spell you can use, according to your class level, is also shown on the table. You can select any sorcerer/wizard spell up to that level, but you can prepare only one spell of your maximum level. Your caster level equals your level in this character class. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against your spell is 10 + the spell level + your Int modifier
See bold.

Which means you have a caster level for the sake of taking the feats.

Now, as for crafting I don't see why you can apply metamagic feats to it, but not use it for crafting.

(To prove you can apply metamagic)
Source: Dungeonscape

If you wish to enhance a spell with a metamagic feat, you must apply the feat when you prepare the spell. In addition, you must be capable of using a spell of the modified spell’s level.

Also, you can use other magic items. It doesn't have to be a spell you know. You just need a way to cast the spell.

Source: DMG

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

Now then, unless I'm missing something, nowhere in the crafting magic items section does it say you have to cast it as a spell. It merely says you would need *insert spell name here*. Never states "It must be a spell and not a SLA or Supernatural ability.

The closest thing is in the armor section which says

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spells.The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
All it says is you need to prepare them and they get cast. The factotum PREPARES spells, they just CAST them as spell like abilities. Reference back to Dungeonscape.


At the start of each day, choose a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list based on your factotum level. You can choose one spell at 2nd level, and you gain additional spells as shown on Table 1–1. The maximum level of spell you can use, according to your class level, is also shown on the table. You can select any sorcerer/wizard spell up to that level, but you can prepare only one spell of your maximum level.

Note that all the preparing is done as a spell. The only time it is a SLA is when you cast it and spend 1IP.

By spending 1 inspiration point, you can mimic a spell as a spell-like ability.

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In regards to only taking font of inspiration, having all of one feat is boring and the party needs a crafter...I'm capable of doing it so why not? ...That and future golem army :P

[NNescio]

Going into Chameleon is probably better if you intend to do a lot of crafting, since the free floating feat can be switched around for your crafting needs.

Still, as JaronK has mentioned, a pure factotum is generally better on most levels, especially in combat.

[JaronK]

@JaronK
No Font of Inspiration? I'm currently playing a Factotum and I chose that feat two times (my character is 4th level now). Do you think it's not a good investment for a pure Factotum?

I think he already knew about that feat. Though I do feel it's a bit of a crutch... the more I've played Factotums, the less I've wanted it. I may take it 3-4 times, or not at all, depending.

@Particle_Man: See Complete Arcane, which states that SLAs do work for crafting, as does your caster level for your SLAs. They're talking about Warlocks but it's intentionally generalized for future classes.

JaronK

[Major]

I think he already knew about that feat. Though I do feel it's a bit of a crutch... the more I've played Factotums, the less I've wanted it. I may take it 3-4 times, or not at all, depending.

@Particle_Man: See Complete Arcane, which states that SLAs do work for crafting, as does your caster level for your SLAs. They're talking about Warlocks but it's intentionally generalized for future classes.

JaronK

Yeah, I know font of inspiration and I've taken it a few times I've played factotum (usually when I multi-class out) and I'll probably take it at the end with my left-over feats. I like it, but it isn't always necessary. 3-4 times or not at all is about accurate to what I plan on doing.

And thanks for the better crafting source. Didn't realize complete arcane specifically said it could. I just had sources that never said it couldn't and figured it could.

[Particle_Man]

I stand corrected. :smallredface:

[Engine]

I think he already knew about that feat. Though I do feel it's a bit of a crutch... the more I've played Factotums, the less I've wanted it. I may take it 3-4 times, or not at all, depending.

Well, you could be right.=) Thanks for your advice, anyway.

[Daftendirekt]

I always think about it like this: If you want skills, go Factotum. If you want abilities, go Chameleon.

You know, I think this is the perfect way to sum it up.

[Laniius]

So the Chameleon may be more powerful around level 19 or so, but in the game I'm going to be playing in we are starting at level 12, and given the capriciousness of the DM it is uncertain whether we will be progressing to that level. So at level 12, how would a Factotum 8/Chameleon 4 stack up with a Factotum 12? My race is Tibbit for flavour reasons, and the DM has waived the race requirement for Able Learner.

[NNescio]

So the Chameleon may be more powerful around level 19 or so, but in the game I'm going to be playing in we are starting at level 12, and given the capriciousness of the DM it is uncertain whether we will be progressing to that level. So at level 12, how would a Factotum 8/Chameleon 4 stack up with a Factotum 12? My race is Tibbit for flavour reasons, and the DM has waived the race requirement for Able Learner.

A Chameleon still needs to be a human or a doppelganger (or a related race). Has your DM waived the race requirement for Chameleon yet?

[Laniius]

A Chameleon still needs to be a human or a doppelganger (or a related race). Has your DM waived the race requirement for Chameleon yet?

Balls. Oh well Changelings are cool too. For some reason I don't like playing humans.

[KitTheOdd]

The class description (under adaptation) specifically says that changelings should have access to the PrC. It is under adaptation and specifies Eberron because that is the only place that changelings "exist". Of course, if the DM allows Tibbits....

If you are looking at level 12 and thinking Chameleon then look at Chameleon 7 - maybe don't get so hung up on Factotum 8. You'll have +4 Int (and possibly +4 Wis depending on your DM), 5th level arcane and divine spells, and a caster level of 14. That's right, your caster level will be 2 higher than your character level. Enter as Factotum 5 or even Rog2/Fact3.

[Major]

Alright, so things changed due to the introduction of a binder robbing me of crafting.

Anyways, I'm now trying to pick new feats. Given my 3, 6, and 9th level feats are available again so I can't really complain.

So far
Level 1: faerie mysteries initiate
flaw 1: font of inspiration
flaw 2: nymph's kiss (DM removed the +1 vs saving throws, but I'm not good restricted so...)

level 3:
level 6:
level 9:
level 12:
level 15:
level 18:

Originally I turned down mindbender dip due to needing EWP: gnomish razor. However I'm considering taking it now since I got extra feats I can just get EWP at level 3.

I'd need to get EWP at 3 and Mindsight at 6, thus two feats going the mindbender route but it is useful.

On the other hand going MoM means fly as swift action, fake good alignment, featherfall infinite as well as all exotic weapon proficiencies.

Opinions?

Anyways, another note since said early, I don't do the bow so that's not as useful. I have a short bow but it isn't my focus. I'll be using gnomish quick razor and Iaijutsu focus (having sneak attack as a fall back due to factotum levels)

What other feats should I take (yes foi is good, yes I'll take it, no I'm not taking it every feat)

Most the suggested feats earlier were either best for bow users or best for crafting.

----

I've read a totemist with manticore belt can be a good level one dip, but not read it yet.

Edit: Reading it implies I need multiple levels, not just one to bind it. I need to bind to totem which isn't till level 2...thus robbing my of cunning brilliance.

Unless I'm wrong, pass.

Edit2: Marshal seems possible, helps ensure I get to be party face as well as minor auras can be pretty nice depending on which I pick.

Edit 3: Looking up intimidate and imperious command.

[JaronK]

If you do go for Chameleon (and it's indeed a fun class) then I strongly recommend entering it with a combination of Binder and ToB classes, possibly with a touch of Rogue. That works a lot better than a Factotum entry.

JaronK

[Veyr]

Binders can craft if you have access to Astaroth, the Unjustly Fallen (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a).

[Major]

That's why the party Binder took over crafting. However, I'm not gonna be touching binder. It's now a decision on what to fill in the slots with.

I could go the mindbender route now and use those extra feat slots for EWP and mindsight. Or I could dip marshal for the aura to add cha to skills and skill focus: Diplomacy.

Last I could go MoM for angel and gladiator mask.

Mindbender was especially tempting since I could use geas and such without people hearing my orders.

[Bugbeartrap]

Have you read PersonMan's Haberdash build? He dips MoM and really has some fun with exotic weapons.

Also, if you feel your damage is low, see if you can use your cunning strike to qualify for Craven (adds your level to damage). Add that to Manticore sting and iaijutsu, and you can be doing severe damage with a standard action.

[Major]

Yeah, I read the build. Currently while I ooc like MoM better, I'll probably go with Mindbender for in character reasons.

[Laniius]

My build is finalized at Factotum 8/Master of Masks 1/Chameleon 3 for level 12; I like the idea of being able to do almost anything and I also loaded myself up with a bunch of wands. If spellcasting was my focus I would have put in more Chameleon levels, and if skill stuff was my focus I would have just gone pure factotum, but I think this is a nice mixture. And I refuse to have my caster level higher than my character level as per the Chameleon's spell progression, in my head I add the words "up to your character level/hit die" when it says your caster level is 2x your chameleon level. Otherwise I feel skeevy. The Master of Masks level is to get the archmage mask and the gladiator mask, because I think it's funny to be proficient in every exotic weapon and I will be focussing more on my arcane side in terms of spellcasting. My DM allowed me to waive the race requirement for the class, and it's a toss-up between Hengeyokai (Sparrow) and Tibbit. Probably going to go Hengeyokai to get non-magical flight and really awesome hiding for scout-type roles.

As to the caster level thing, having a (potential) X Class 5/Chameleon 10 and having a 20 caster level at level 15 just seems... wrong to me somehow.

[Tytalus]

So the Chameleon may be more powerful around level 19 or so, but in the game I'm going to be playing in we are starting at level 12, and given the capriciousness of the DM it is uncertain whether we will be progressing to that level. So at level 12, how would a Factotum 8/Chameleon 4 stack up with a Factotum 12? My race is Tibbit for flavour reasons, and the DM has waived the race requirement for Able Learner.

As has been pointed out before, at ECL 12 you can be a X5/Chameleon7, which means that your magic abilities are excellent (caster level 14(*), +4 to both(*) casting stats, 5th level spells from *any* arcane and divine lists). If you like magic, Chameleon7+ blows anything the Factotum can do out of the water.

Cunning Surge is very nice, of course, but works best if you can actually do something powerful with those extra actions - such as casting powerful spells. You can combine that nicely with Chameleon spellcasting, but Double Aptitude should, IMHO, clearly be your first priority.

If you did like magic, and would like to emphasize it even further, you could boost your arcane caster level even further by entering Chameleon with something like Wizard1/Spellthief4 and the Precocious Apprentice [CArc] and Master Spellthief [CS] feats, for an arcane caster level of 18 before items etc., which is *very* nice at ECL 12. Of course, if you don't want a CL higher than 12, that's not an option for you.

Another entry that will utilize Chameleon spellcasting is anything that sets you up for Divine Metamagic: Persist [CD]. With your divine casting granting you access to *any* divine spell from any list, you'll have a lot more to choose from that your standard cleric. (It's even possible to reap turn attempts from multiple classes without negatively affecting your spellcasting ability, e.g. by choosing Cleric1/Paladin4 as an entry. It's pretty tough to meet the skill requirements that way, though.) Combined with your naturally high caster level, you are quite dispel-proof for the foreseeable future, too, given that you don't neglect to further boost CL with items etc.

Overall, IMHO the Chameleon is not only more powerful, its spellcasting also offers more flexibility. YMMV.

---

(*) Or 12, if you feel like limiting the CL by ECL.

(**) There's a bit of a debate about whether you get two ability boons when you can get Double Aptitude, so be sure to check with your DM. However, even a single boon is nice.

[Hallack]

So the Chameleon may be more powerful around level 19 or so, but in the game I'm going to be playing in we are starting at level 12, and given the capriciousness of the DM it is uncertain whether we will be progressing to that level. So at level 12, how would a Factotum 8/Chameleon 4 stack up with a Factotum 12? My race is Tibbit for flavour reasons, and the DM has waived the race requirement for Able Learner.

Yeah, as Tytalus touched on Chameleon is likely to be more powerful in breadth than pure Factotum.

A great deal of Chameleon's power though will be dependent upon what spell lists you are allowed to access. Nabbing spells from Paladins, Rangers, and such are pretty straight forward as is the Bard for the arcane side which can often get you spells that are higher on the Wizard/Sorcerer list.

Of course, then there things like Trapsmith spell list if it is allowed andyou are looking for cheesy power boosts.

Other considerations for the DM are things like are Divine Bards in the world?

Cheers.