Warmage??

[Half-orc Bard]

What do you think of Warmages they seem kick ass to me. There needs to be a wizard of course, but they could take the place of like a ranger because their spells do do a lot of damage

[Thurbane]

The general concensus is that they pretty much the worst spontaneous full caster, due to a very narrow spell selection and lack of decent class features. Also, Wizards and Sorcerers can usually out-blast the Warmage, which is his niche.

IMHO, they are not as bad as all that, and with a few op tricks they can be a solid class. Magic items that allow you to cast spells you wouldn't otherwise have access to do a lot to help the class (Raiment of the Four, Cloak of Mysterious Conjuration, Eternal Wands etc.). The Apprentice (spellcaster) feat lets you pick up UMD, which is great for any CHA based character, and also opens up the use of things like Runestaves and Knowstones, to expand your spell repertoir.

PrCs like Sand Shaper and Fiend Blooded also help to expand your spell list, as does the ACF for Warmages in PHB II.

[tuesdayscoming]

They're pretty underwhelming, honestly. The extraordinarily limited spell list is a real detriment, and War Mage Edge or whatever its called is not quite the boost it might at first seem to be. Keep in mind that it only applies to any given spell once (I got excited about magic missile the first time I read the ability description, but alas!).

On the other hand, it makes an absolutely splendid entry into the Rainbow Servant (though I still prefer Beguiler).

[Zonugal]

What do you think of Warmages they seem kick ass to me. There needs to be a wizard of course, but they could take the place of like a ranger because their spells do do a lot of damage

Any mystic ranger with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat and the Shooting Star alternate class feature will typically be better than any warmage (exceptions be made to those who follow the rainbow snake). This tends to be because rangers have an incredibly amount of versatility (even more when opening sources outside of core) to a party, while the warmage is pretty locked into their position.

[Thefurmonger]

And really the Rainbow WARsnake could easily be the Rainbow Dreadsnake or the Rainbow Buigsnake.

Saying rainbow servant makes it good is ignoring the other 2 (Dread nec and Beguiler) that make use of the same trick AND are actually good on their own.

[tuesdayscoming]

And really the Rainbow WARsnake could easily be the Rainbow Dreadsnake or the Rainbow Buigsnake.

Saying rainbow servant makes it good is ignoring the other 2 (Dread nec and Beguiler) that make use of the same trick AND are actually good on their own.

Fair point, though I did mention that I prefer the Beguiler in my post.

Anyways, as you can probably see, you're not going to hear too much War Mage love in the Playground

[Amphetryon]

Anyways, as you can probably see, you're not going to hear too much War Mage love in the PlaygroundYep. It's decent at its job, but its job scope is narrow enough that it's best used in circumstances where the party has no other major damage dealer but has filled all but the Arcanist role, and believes the roles of major damage dealer and Arcanist are needed. This is possible, but seems a corner case to me.

[TurtleKing]

I like the Warmage though that just might be the ex-military in me talking.

Plus throw in a Reserve feat or two and the options become even larger.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Warmages aren't powerful. But if you want to hit it with high damage, warmages are fun with that.l

[Keld Denar]

See, the thing is, with a little preperation, you don't need 15 different ways to say "CLd6". You need about 3. So, a Sorcerer picks 3 different versatile blasts, spices them up with a little metamagic, milks action economy with Arcane Fusion or Arcane Spellsurge, and outblasts the poor Warmage. Oh, and he still has his other 40something spells known to pick up defenses and utility.

You don't need 15 different screwdrivers, you need 3 really big hammers.

[Half-orc Bard]

What's a good arcane caster who isn't wizardy like no Wu Jen or sorcerers who still have a moderately good damage output?

[Thefurmonger]

What's a good arcane caster who isn't wizardy like no Wu Jen or sorcerers who still have a moderately good damage output?

Dread Necro actually does some really good damage.

[Noneoyabizzness]

See, the thing is, with a little preperation, you don't need 15 different ways to say "CLd6". You need about 3. So, a Sorcerer picks 3 different versatile blasts, spices them up with a little metamagic, milks action economy with Arcane Fusion or Arcane Spellsurge, and outblasts the poor Warmage. Oh, and he still has his other 40something spells known to pick up defenses and utility.

You don't need 15 different screwdrivers, you need 3 really big hammers.

Sometimes, its fun to say "how will I blow crap up today?"

[sonofzeal]

Warmage is fine.

They get scorn because it's tempting to compare them against Wizards or Sorcerers, and they lose to both. But they're good at what they do, as long as you understand that you're narrowing your focus tremendously.

Another alternative is Wilder. They're very similar to the Warmage, but Psionic and a bit more flexible. Fewer powers known, but off a better list. Warmages likely win in endurance for blasting. But Wilders can do other things besides blast, especially with Expanded Knowledge, which is absolutely fantastic for them.

[Shpadoinkle]

If you're looking for a class to do nothing but cast spells that do damage, warmage is fine. You might take a look at the dragonfire adept or warlock classes, who both get some powers that let them blow stuff up all day.

The reason people consider the warmage a mediocre class is because there are spells that disable enemies long enough for you and the rest of the party to finish off its buddies then coup de grace it (sleep, color spray, hold person, etc.) or just kill monsters outright (finger of death, wail of the banshee, etc.) There are enough ways to boost your caster level that such spells are pretty reliable against monsters appropriate to your level.

Meanwhile, spells that do nothing but damage don't disable, slow down, or hinder the enemy in any way unless they happen to die from it- spells like Hold Person are both offense and defense in one. Spells like Fireball are pure offense. Casters dealing HP damage is generally the least efficient thing they could do with their spells.

[gbprime]

A Warmage is a cannon. if you use it as a cannon, you will be happy. If you want something else out of it, you will not be happy.

Warmage works great if you add to it's strengths. Some PrC's add versatility (like Wild Mage), some add power. You want the ones that add power, or that add both.

- Sanctified One of Kord - 1 level is enough to turn all your fire spells into untyped damage. And you have a LOT of fire spells. The qualifications are kinda steep though.

- War Mage - From Dragonlance: Age of Mortals, so most DM's consider it 3rd party and you need approval first. But this 5 level class comes with 2 metamagic feats and a total of +3 PER DIE OF DAMAGE for any spell you cast. Free Empowers anyone?

- Dracolexi - it costs you 1 caster level and you have to use your 3rd level spell lore to pick up the 0 level spell Message, but it adds both power and versatility. Power Word spells (like power word pain plus warmage edge...), Suggestion, Geas, free Extend Spell, Free Empower Spell (for fire spells at 10th level in the PrC... mix with Sanctified one and have fun!), and combat boosts to your allies.

I am notably not adding Rainbow Servant. That doesn't add power, it adds only versatility. if you wanted cleric spells, you'd have played a cleric with War and Fire domains, right?

[sonofzeal]

Counter-argument: In your average group of Mage/Warrior/Support/Specialist, the other three characters are generally doing HP damage. If what you're doing is binary win/lose stuff, it completely ignores the contribution of the rest of the team, and doesn't synergize at all. A monster has the same chance of passing the Phantasmal Killer save whether it has 100% hp or 1% hp.

But if you're dealing damage, especially Ref Half damage, you're contributing to what the rest of the team is laying down, and even a passed save means you're making a significant contribution. It synergies.

More importantly, it means that you're being a team player. You don't control victory or loss by yourself, you're working with the team rather than doing your own thing and hoping it works. Your existence doesn't define the encounter, but it does contribute to it.

You may not be objectively as strong, but in many cases you're winning at the social game more than a SoD Batman Wizard would be.

[The Glyphstone]

Or losing it, depending on how jealous the fighter or rogue is at your massive AoE damage.


Really, the OP's comparison to rangers is very accurate. Warmages aren't casters the way a wizard or sorcerer or even Mystic Ranger/SotAO Paladin are. They're archers that do energy damage, and lots of it.

[Hida Reju]

Really I think that people do not look at the warmage right. It's not a Wizard/Sorcerer it's an archer with blast damage.

If you considered it to be an archer that doubles as artillery then you see it right. If you try to make it into a Wizard/Sorcerer then you should have just played a Wizard/Sorcerer in the first place.

You are right a Wizard/Sorcerer only needs about 3 big hammers to do the damage thing and get big numbers. But having all energy types at your finger tips is nice. Having access to all of your spells at once without having to spend massive amounts of gold or depend on a sympathetic GM is awesome.

[Thurbane]

They're archers that do energy damage, and lots of it.
Are they as good at it as, say, Warlocks? I guess Warmage has the advantage of better AoE; while a Warlock never runs out of juice, and gets some utiility/defensive invocations on the side.

[faceroll]

Keep in mind that it only applies to any given spell once (I got excited about magic missile the first time I read the ability description, but alas!).

Actually, it only applies to barrage type spells once; fireball gets it vs. all targets and DOTs, like acid arrow, get it every round.


And really the Rainbow WARsnake could easily be the Rainbow Dreadsnake or the Rainbow Buigsnake.

Saying rainbow servant makes it good is ignoring the other 2 (Dread nec and Beguiler) that make use of the same trick AND are actually good on their own.

Opportunity class, and by RAW, dread necro can't qualify for Rainbow Servant.


Warmage is fine.

"A warmage is fine too" :smallbiggrin:
The warmage has a pretty high optimization threshold. Pick a deity with neat domains and grab Arcane Disciple and a Bloodline. Versatile Spellcaster + Sanctum Spell is a neat trick, gets you some pretty god stuff earlier than you should. Get +1d6 caster levels on all your spells by taking Practiced Spell Caster and Wild Mage.

It's like a low-op Mailman.

'Course, you could get the same results out of a beguiler who picked up the Cold domain or something with Arcane Disciple....

[TurtleKing]

I'm suprised no one as commented on how the Warmage is less likely to break the campaign. To DMs that is a plus.

[gomipile]

At higher levels, if you can convince your DM to allow the Extra Spell feat to work for the Warmage, you can pick up Assay Spell Resistance. That, or Arcane Fusion.

There are good arguments that Extra Spell does nothing at all for a Warmage by RAW, but they can use the help. Just like many DMs will let players add a few spells to the Healer's spell list.

[LordBlades]

Warmage isn't that good of a blaster. An optimized Sorcerer blasts better, an optimzied Psion blasts better too. usually by several orders of magnitude.

What Warmage offers is a decent blaster for a Tier 3 and below game, that has very few game breaking tools at his disposal.

[Zaq]

Warmages make good NPCs, since it's relatively easy to slap one together in about ten minutes. They're a good option if you want the party to face arcane enemies who aren't necessarily Wizards or Sorcerers (both of whom take a lot of work for the GM to build and have to be actively restrained from not demolishing the party).

They're really weak and boring as a PC class, though. You can do much better.

[Marnath]

I'm suprised no one as commented on how the Warmage is less likely to break the campaign. To DMs that is a plus.

Yes, I think it's hilarious how often some form of "warmage/battle sorceror sucks because it can't do X like a wizard" is within half a page of "how do I stop tier 1 casters from raping my campaign?" in these forums. The irony just gets me every time.:smallbiggrin:

[Corlindale]

I've played a pure Warmage for a year and a half now, he is currently level 14. While I agree with the general sentiment that he is much less powerful than a straight Sorceror, I have had great fun playing him.

I always feel like I am contributing in encounters. Of course our group is not the most optimized, with everyone swimming around Tier 3-4, but still I have certainly been able to face CR-appropriate challenges effectively.

I sometimes do wish that I had chosen a sorceror instead, though. As stated, you don't really need a zillion ways to do damage, even if the spell list at first sight seems really impressive. But still, it's nice to know that no matter what kind of enemies we face, and what kind of formation they appear in, it is almost certain that I have a way to hurt them. Hit point damage may be inferior to SoD, but as was also mentioned it sometimes feels more like a satisfying team effort when everyone is "attacking the same thing".

And one should not forget that the Warmage also gets some very nice CC and SoD/SoL spells, like Sleet Storm, Black Tentacles and the Prismatic spells.

The Eclectic Learning variant from PHB II is also a tremendeous help, even if it only gets you 3-4 bonus spells - and with late entry at that (I picked Mirror Image and Dimension Door, and either one of them has saved my life more times than I can count).

The Sudden metamagic feats are pretty meh, though - a bad excuse for lack of proper class features - and Maximize arrives way too late to be useful. I would have preferred it if the class simply got bonus metamagic feats instead, or if it had at least gotten access to Sudden Quicken w/o prereqs at some point - that certainly wouldn't have been broken in any way.

[ubergeek63]

I am playing one and going into dracolexi. I think my GM will let me take all draconic meta-magic words since extend spell is there ... and enlarge/widen are buried in burn...

the thing i have yet to see mentioned is that the Draconic meta-magic effects do not effect the spell level! a widened fire ball would normally be lvl6 spell but is still only lvl3 when effected by burn, and you can use it like sudden as often as you like!

[Runestar]

I'm suprised no one as commented on how the Warmage is less likely to break the campaign. To DMs that is a plus.

The problem is that they also lack the utility or versatility of a wizard. Many games pretty much assume you are able to access X ability by virtue of spellcaster-buffing, such as flight or dispel.

I would compare a warmage more to an archer (like a swift hunter), in that they both serve similar roles by standing far away and smacking a foe for tons of damage, but possess little utility outside of this rather specialised role.

Thus, you should have the warmage replace the party ranger, rather than the wizard.

[Amphetryon]

Thus, you should have the warmage replace the party ranger, rather than the wizard.Or, if your party's ranger has taken the TWF/Animal Handling route of ranger creation, leaving you without an effective tactical sniper.

[sonofzeal]

Or, if your party's ranger has taken the TWF/Animal Handling route of ranger creation, leaving you without an effective tactical sniper.
Since when were Rangers "effective tactical snipers"?

[McSmack]

I've personally always liked the warmage. It's a simple fun class for people who like blowing things up. From an optimization standpoint, their not as good as a lot of other classes. But they're a good solid class and a lot of fun.

Most campaigns that I run/play stay in the tier 3-4 range, those who play tier 5 classes don't bother breaking the game and everyone has a good time because of that. For campaigns like that, warmage is gold. They have quite a bit of power, and it's easy to come by, so you aren't stuck picking feats/PrCs from dozens of different sources just to be awesome.

[Amphetryon]

Since when were Rangers "effective tactical snipers"?

When they were being touted as the effective slot which a Warmage filled. Here, let me fetch runestar's quote from the previous page:


I would compare a warmage more to an archer (like a swift hunter), in that they both serve similar roles by standing far away and smacking a foe for tons of damage, but possess little utility outside of this rather specialised role.

[pilvento]

In my gaming table when we play warmage we have 2 house rules cause we really like the class.

Change the BaB to the Rouge BaB, and u can use Int for the casting instead of Cha to avoid MAD due to his warmage edge int dmg, you can also change warmage edge to cha dmg instead.

This way warmage can have a decent attack rol for his ranged spells, avoid MAD an exelent option for a gish build

[FMArthur]

Any mystic ranger with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat and the Shooting Star alternate class feature will typically be better than any warmage (exceptions be made to those who follow the rainbow snake). This tends to be because rangers have an incredibly amount of versatility (even more when opening sources outside of core) to a party, while the warmage is pretty locked into their position.

That is a pretty rigged combination, though. It also doesn't really step on the Warmage's toes as a blaster that much because of the halved caster level you have as a Ranger and the investment you need to offset it. Further, most of the Shooting Star features are not obtainable to Mystic Rangers because they replace certain levels where you do not yet have access to the abilities they replace, and you don't have an Animal Companion to trade away at all.

So while they are more powerful overall, it costs them a lot to actually outdo featless Warmages at their own game, and with feats a Warmage can probably pull ahead. There is also the matter of not advancing past fifth level spells, despite having a wider list up until then.

And honestly I don't know why you bring it up for comparison instead of a Wizard, Sorceror or Psion. Warmages aren't gishes or anything. They're just blaster mages. :smallconfused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't own CA, but someone I know does. I took one look at the warmage class and I thought "it's decent, but how are you gonna be expected to use those weapons you're proficient with if you have a 1/2 BAB progression? And how are you expected to hold up in melee with d6 hit die."

However, in a gestalt campaign it can be good when paired up with a class that has better BAB, wears armor, and a d8 or d10 hit die.

[Tyndmyr]

What do you think of Warmages they seem kick ass to me. There needs to be a wizard of course, but they could take the place of like a ranger because their spells do do a lot of damage

They're a solid pick for the new player that wants to play a blasty caster. They fill that role excellently, the warmage edge helps a little bit during the squishy levels(though it quickly becomes irrelevant), the metamagic feats introduce them to the fun of being even MORE blasty, and the expanded learning can be used to get the essential non blasty things.

In higher optimization builds, they can be used in a similar fashion to the sorc, only taking advantage of actually having class features. They make a pretty solid orb wizard, for instance.

You will never actually use normal weapons past the low levels. The extra point of hp is nice, and light armor can be aright, but actually hitting things is almost never the best choice for this class.

[FMArthur]

I don't own CA, but someone I know does. I took one look at the warmage class and I thought "it's decent, but how are you gonna be expected to use those weapons you're proficient with if you have a 1/2 BAB progression? And how are you expected to hold up in melee with d6 hit die."

However, in a gestalt campaign it can be good when paired up with a class that has better BAB, wears armor, and a d8 or d10 hit die.

Pray tell, what does a Warmage add to that? BAB: garbage is a pretty good sign that it's not a melee class. The weapon proficiencies are more for military flavour and are quite obviously the last thing a Warmage should be using in battle. Really, there are tons of better melee/caster hybrids, and somewhere near the bottom of the list is the Duskblade, which does everything you seem to think Warmages should do and does it better.

[Cerlis]

sounds like alot of people are comparing an unoptimized Warmage to an optimized...anything.

and also sounds like alot of people are saying 'A wizard is a better wizard than a warmage is" in the same context of "A wizard is a better wizard than a fighter is"

Warmage is as great at being a warmage as a wizard is a wizard as a fighter is a fighter as a potatoe is a potatoe.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Pray tell, what does a Warmage add to that? BAB: garbage is a pretty good sign that it's not a melee class. The weapon proficiencies are more for military flavour and are quite obviously the last thing a Warmage should be using in battle. Really, there are tons of better melee/caster hybrids, and somewhere near the bottom of the list is the Duskblade, which does everything you seem to think Warmages should do and does it better.

I don't own PHB 2 either. :smallannoyed:

[tuesdayscoming]

Warmage is as great at being a warmage as a wizard is a wizard as a fighter is a fighter as a CW Samurai is a potatoe.

Fixed that for you :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, the Warmage is not supposed to be a wizard. But even looking just at what it is supposed to be able to do well there's no real incentive to stick with the class. The only moderately interesting feature is Edge, which is terrifically underwhelming. It's a highly specialized class – a fact that I like quite well. It's just also one that I feel was executed quite poorly.

[Thurbane]

Yes, I think it's hilarious how often some form of "warmage/battle sorceror sucks because it can't do X like a wizard" is within half a page of "how do I stop tier 1 casters from raping my campaign?" in these forums. The irony just gets me every time.:smallbiggrin:
So very true...

As much as I like the Warmage, though, I do think his main Achilles heel is his lack of defensive spells, especially at low levels. Light armor (eventually he gets medium) and a light shield is no real substitute for Mirror Image and similar spells. With a d6 HD, he's not quite as squishy as a Wizard or Sorcerer, but not far off it either. The Beguiler and even Dread Necromancer has much more solid defensive options.

True, a Rogue has to make do with d6 HD and light armor, but he has his stealth to help protect him, and a rogue does not generally draw enemy attacks the way a caster does. Most intelligent opponents will start targeting the guy flinging spells at them ASAP.

The Warmage spells list is sorely lacking in anything defensive - Fire Shield and Ring of Blades don't kick in until you get 3rd level spells. That's why I think something like an Eternal Wand of Mirror Image is a priority item as soon as you can afford it.

Another thing that irks me is no Read Magic on his spell list. That's just stupid. Sure, you can max out Spellcraft for any scrolls you find, or buy a Read Magic item, but having a full caster without Read Magic just seems plain wrong to me.

[stainboy]

Warmages are pretty decent when they're the only full caster in the party, which is my only experience with them.

I wish they got more freedom with Expanded Knowledge though, so you could try to push them into Tier 3 if you needed to. (Off the top of my head I'd do Expanded Knowledge every odd level after 1st, and extend it to Transmutation spells and Conjuration spells with no subschool.)

[Zonugal]

So while they are more powerful overall, it costs them a lot to actually outdo featless Warmages at their own game, and with feats a Warmage can probably pull ahead. There is also the matter of not advancing past fifth level spells, despite having a wider list up until then.

You cite that it costs Rangers a lot to do this but all I see is needing one feat and a collection of alternate class features/class substitutions (which being free are rather inexpensive). So one feat and the ranger (who already is pretty versatile) brings more utility than expected from a warmage. This gets even crazier if you simply dip a single level of wizard. Regarding the fifth level spells ceiling that the ranger will hit, it isn't actually that big of a problem. This is only a problem if you play in games featuring levels 12 & beyond (which we know is past the 'sweet spot' that most people have mentioned playing).


And honestly I don't know why you bring it up for comparison instead of a Wizard, Sorceror or Psion. Warmages aren't gishes or anything. They're just blaster mages. :smallconfused:

The initial poster made the comparison towards warmages and rangers first, so I was merely replying to such a comparison.

[The Glyphstone]

see, that's the problem. You're trying (and succeeding) to make Rangers outdo Warmages, but you're doing so by turning the Rangers into pseudoWizards. A Warmage isn't a wizard, and doesn't try to pretend to me one, he just blows stuff up in large quantities, and barring large amounts of optimization, he will always be superior at his job - blowing stuff up in large quantities - than a Ranger will be. Towards that end, they are not arcanists in the traditional sense of a wizard, sorcerer, or even Mystic Ranger - they are elemental archers, pure DPR machines.

[Thurbane]

I wish they got more freedom with Expanded Knowledge though, so you needed to try to push them into Tier 3 if you needed to.
There is an ACF in PHB II that lets you swap Advanced Learning for Eclectic Learning. Functionally, this lets you add ANY Sor/Wiz spell to your list, but the downside is the spell is treated as one level higher (i.e. Mirror Image would be a 3rd level spell for you).

It says you must be able to cast spells of the spells (new) level, but you might be able to cheese your way past that with Versatile Spellcaster (and possibly Heighten Spell).

[Zonugal]

see, that's the problem. You're trying (and succeeding) to make Rangers outdo Warmages, but you're doing so by turning the Rangers into pseudoWizards. A Warmage isn't a wizard, and doesn't try to pretend to me one, he just blows stuff up in large quantities, and barring large amounts of optimization, he will always be superior at his job - blowing stuff up in large quantities - than a Ranger will be. Towards that end, they are not arcanists in the traditional sense of a wizard, sorcerer, or even Mystic Ranger - they are elemental archers, pure DPR machines.

Hey, I was just responding to the initial comparison of warmages being akin to rangers.

I love me my rangers.

Nobody puts rangers in the corner.

[Runestar]

And honestly I don't know why you bring it up for comparison instead of a Wizard, Sorceror or Psion. Warmages aren't gishes or anything. They're just blaster mages.

Blaster mages aren't expected to just blast all day and not anything else. Being a wizard, and thanks to new feats today such as alacritous cogitation, uncanny forethought, spontaneous spell and features like spontaneous divination, they can still access useful non-blasting spells in a hurry if the situation ever calls for it.

The warlock is similar to a warmage in this aspect, in that their invocations don't even come close to replicating the role of a traditional spellcaster. They simply blast all day, and have a few tricks up their sleeve to build upon this, and that's pretty much it.

I feel that you need a very clear idea of what your character will be able to do and contribute to the party. If you go in expecting them to be able to replace a wizard or sorc, you will be sorely disappointed.

[FMArthur]

You cite that it costs Rangers a lot to do this but all I see is needing one feat and a collection of alternate class features/class substitutions (which being free are rather inexpensive). So one feat and the ranger (who already is pretty versatile) brings more utility than expected from a warmage. This gets even crazier if you simply dip a single level of wizard. Regarding the fifth level spells ceiling that the ranger will hit, it isn't actually that big of a problem. This is only a problem if you play in games featuring levels 12 & beyond (which we know is past the 'sweet spot' that most people have mentioned playing).



The initial poster made the comparison towards warmages and rangers first, so I was merely replying to such a comparison.

One feat? No, at the minimum you're spending two to not have a horrible caster level that prevents you from blasting, the only thing a Warmage is designed to ever do. The OP was thinking of the Ranger as a ranged damage dealer via archery, not as a competing spellcaster.

[Zonugal]

One feat? No, at the minimum you're spending two to not have a horrible caster level that prevents you from blasting, the only thing a Warmage is designed to ever do. The OP was thinking of the Ranger as a ranged damage dealer via archery, not as a competing spellcaster.

No, you are spending one feat and dipping a single level of wizard. Nobody is going to use up one of their valuable seven (or eight) feats when an investment into one of your 20 class slots can provide something monumentally better.

[No brains]

I hate this. Here I am finding another class I like sucks because wizards are both batman and Batman.:smallfrown:

Just tell me they work fine as T3 characters. Wizards are vomitingly OP anyway, so just tell me I can maintain my fantasy that warmages and fighters can get along as viable teammates in my fantasy world. Ugh...:smallannoyed:

I had this idea once for a swashbuckler//Warmage Gestalt. It wouldn't be Mecha-Christ, but it played well into the idea for a character and I also thought it could use a spell-storing rapier to ruin someone's day with rapier+meteor swarm+(intX2) damage, which would at least be fun if not practical.:smallsmile:

[Zonugal]

I hate this. Here I am finding another class I like sucks because wizards are both batman and Batman.:smallfrown:

Just tell me they work fine as T3 characters. Wizards are vomitingly OP anyway, so just tell me I can maintain my fantasy that warmages and fighters can get along as viable teammates in my fantasy world. Ugh...:smallannoyed

According to the tier system they actually fall under tier four but that shouldn't discount your efforts. The warmage can be a completely acceptable character and I see few situations where the fighter would suffer much hostility towards one. If anything you are the heavy artillery to his infantry.

But if I can offer an optimization suggestion, look into picking up the apprentice (spellcaster) feat from the Dungeon Master's Guide 2. This will grant you Use Magical Device as a skill throughout your career (and even gives you a free skill point to always go into it). This is so you can gain access to runestaffs which open up a wide collection of versatility & utility. You can one for stealth, one for conjuring, one for summoning. They bring a lot to any arcane caster.

[Runestar]

Just tell me they work fine as T3 characters. Wizards are vomitingly OP anyway, so just tell me I can maintain my fantasy that warmages and fighters can get along as viable teammates in my fantasy world. Ugh...

They wouldn't be T3. Warblades are T3 because they have options that let them remain useful both inside and outside of combat, nor will these abilities upset the game.

Warmages just blast. They would be tier4? Or maybe 3.5.


I had this idea once for a swashbuckler//Warmage Gestalt. It wouldn't be Mecha-Christ, but it played well into the idea for a character and I also thought it could use a spell-storing rapier to ruin someone's day with rapier+meteor swarm+(intX2) damage, which would at least be fun if not practical.

Then you may want to consider duskblade.

[Thefurmonger]

My big issue with Warmage is that they should be the BEST at what they do (Blow crap up)

But sadly it just isn't the case. Sorc is just as good as they are with a crapload more options to boot.

there is a good reason The Mailman ("http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) is a Sorc and not a Warmage.

The Warmage has GREAT fluff, seriously I really do love it. But it fell down on actual mechanics.

[FMArthur]

No, you are spending one feat and dipping a single level of wizard. Nobody is going to use up one of their valuable seven (or eight) feats when an investment into one of your 20 class slots can provide something monumentally better.

So how is a Mystic Ranger down one level and a feat still a better blaster than a Warmage?

[LordBlades]

and also sounds like alot of people are saying 'A wizard is a better wizard than a warmage is" in the same context of "A wizard is a better wizard than a fighter is"

Warmage is as great at being a warmage as a wizard is a wizard as a fighter is a fighter as a potatoe is a potatoe.

That's not the problem; the problem is that wizard (and sorc especially) are better warmages than the warmage.

What the idea behind a warmage? Be reasonably non-squishy and blast. Sorcerers and wizards are way less squishy than a warmage and blast better.

[The Glyphstone]

That's not the problem; the problem is that wizard (and sorc especially) are better warmages than the warmage.

What the idea behind a warmage? Be reasonably non-squishy and blast. Sorcerers and wizards are way less squishy than a warmage and blast better.

That requires optimization though. Metamagics, metamagic reducers, etc. Warmages require absolutely zero optimization to do their role, and they do it fairly well. Yes, Wizards and Sorcerers are better warmages than the warmage...they're also better meleers than the fighter/barbarian, better sneaks than the rogue or ranger, and sometimes better healers than the cleric. That's why they're T1 classes, because it's trivial for them to outclass a lower-tier class within their own specialty.

[LordBlades]

Yes, Wizards and Sorcerers are better warmages than the warmage...they're also better meleers than the fighter/barbarian, better sneaks than the rogue or ranger, and sometimes better healers than the cleric. That's why they're T1 classes, because it's trivial for them to outclass a lower-tier class within their own specialty.

Exactly, and that IMHO is a flaw in the system. If it is a flaw in the design of T1 classes that can do anything, a flaw in the design of low tier classes that aren't good enough at what they specialize in or something in between, it's fairly subjective.

[Thefurmonger]

For how to do it right I look to the Beguiler. (PHBII)

This is a lot like the Warmage but where the Warmage is "Let's blow it to hell Skeeter!!" the Beguiler is a Illusion/Enchantment spec.

The Beguiler is simply amazing at what he does. lets look at why.

Skill points 6+, with casting based off of Int he has Way more then the Wizard.

Suprise casting, This is like SA but raises the spell DC. As we all know more DC=Good.

Free Metamagics, Ok they are not great but you get them at 5th and 10th so thats good.

This all adds up to actually be GOOD at what they are ment to be. the Warmage just is not.

[Tyndmyr]

That's not the problem; the problem is that wizard (and sorc especially) are better warmages than the warmage.

What the idea behind a warmage? Be reasonably non-squishy and blast. Sorcerers and wizards are way less squishy than a warmage and blast better.

People underestimate the d6 hit die. Its roughly equiv to 2 more con, so it helps balance out the mad. Sorcs have a great lack of class features, and about the same prc options as wasrmage. Sand shaper can get you a solid spell list with a 1 lvl dip, and knowstones/rainment of four are standard sorc optimization anyhow. Works the same for warmage.

So, for a blasty sorc, your main advantage are the sorc only spells. That's really it. Warmage gets metamagic and some fun toys. Both are viable blasters.

[The Glyphstone]

Why is the Warmage not good at what it does, as opposed to 'not as good as the Wizard'?

-It's not a skill monkey, it doesn't need skill points.
-Int for Edge is a nice secondary stat, but doesn't add much in the long run.
-It also gets free metamagics, though limited use/day.
-the Eclectic Learning ACF (by RAW, Warmage only) adds valuable flexibility for low-level defenses.
-It gets far more blasting power than it needs across all elements, and does have some crowd control ability with Stinking Cloud, Wall of Fire, and Cloudkill.

The warmage's job is elemental damage, which it delivers in spades. I don't understand how you can say it's "not good at what it does". It's a T4 class, compared to the Beguiler's T3, but that doesn't make the Warmage Bad like a monk or samurai, just worse.

[LordBlades]

People underestimate the d6 hit die. Its roughly equiv to 2 more con, so it helps balance out the mad. Sorcs have a great lack of class features, and about the same prc options as wasrmage. Sand shaper can get you a solid spell list with a 1 lvl dip, and knowstones/rainment of four are standard sorc optimization anyhow. Works the same for warmage.

So, for a blasty sorc, your main advantage are the sorc only spells. That's really it. Warmage gets metamagic and some fun toys. Both are viable blasters.

Past a certain level HD doesn't matter. Sorc has d4 HD, warmage has d6; that 1 hp/level doesn't even begin to make up for the number of defensive spells a sorc/wizard can have.

[Noneoyabizzness]

People keep bringing up the sudden metamagics.

When the mini handbook and ca were written sponts didn't have many options to get metas without full round actions or preping. This was the first attempts to balance that.

Change that to just bonus feat, it expands its power significantly

[Runestar]

The only time I would recommend a warmage over a wizard or sorc is to a new player who is still learning the game. The warmage is fairly simple to play as you already get access to all spells on his list. In combat, just choose any spell you fancy and fire away. No need to agonise over which spells to prepare, or if you have selected the "best" spell at each level up only to regret it later.

So fewer build choices to make (and so fewer chances to screw up).


Why is the Warmage not good at what it does, as opposed to 'not as good as the Wizard'?

I think the point is more along the lines of "Yeah, so it can blast decently, but who the heck cares?" It's like a person bragging that he can memorise PI to 100 digits, but anyone with a handphone can just google up that figure in a second.

Blasting is generally quite inefficient, since damage tends to scale much more slowly than a foe's hp. Casters are better off disabling foes outright with battlefield control spells (warmages get a few, but not varied enough). The warmage is specialising in an area which casters shun because it is too resource intensive, and because the fighter also excels in this area....for free (his attacks don't expend slots).

[Tyndmyr]

Past a certain level HD doesn't matter. Sorc has d4 HD, warmage has d6; that 1 hp/level doesn't even begin to make up for the number of defensive spells a sorc/wizard can have.

Its not supposed to be a wizard.

Not tier 1 /= bad.

[LordBlades]

Its not supposed to be a wizard.

Not tier 1 /= bad.

I never said that. What I meant is that IMHO 1 HP/hd is too little to make up for the array of other most d4 classes (usually full casters) have.

[McSmack]

However, in a gestalt campaign it can be good when paired up with a class that has better BAB, wears armor, and a d8 or d10 hit die.

I ran a Xeph warmage/scout in a gestalt game once. It was funny being able to deal upwards of 30 damage with a Ray of Frost.

My houserules were always that the casting/warmage edge stat was either Int or Cha, players choice.

[Hiro Protagonest]

My houserules were always that the casting/warmage edge stat was either Int or Cha, players choice.

Yeah, as is, it's MAD.

[Zaq]

It still cracks me up how the Warmage is totally the 4e Sorcerer.

3.5 Warmage: Arcane, but has very few spells that do anything other than raw damage
4e Sorcerer: Arcane, but has very few spells that do anything other than raw damage

3.5 Warmage: Spells do extra damage equal to a secondary stat
4e Sorcerer: Spells do extra damage equal to a secondary stat

3.5 Warmage: Heavily outclassed at their own specialty by a Wizard who knows what they're doing
4e Sorcerer: Arguably equaled or outclassed at their own specialty by a Wizard who knows what they're doing

Yeah.

[Thurbane]

The warmage's job is elemental damage, which it delivers in spades. I don't understand how you can say it's "not good at what it does". It's a T4 class, compared to the Beguiler's T3, but that doesn't make the Warmage Bad like a monk or samurai, just worse.
See, this is one of the problems I have with the tier system. No matter how many learned gamers contribute to the rankings, there's alway a large element of opinion and personal experience involved...some classes are going to vary by up to 2 tiers depending who is doing the ranking.

P.S. For the love of all that's good, people, don't let what characters you play be blindly controlled by the tier system! Play classes that interest you and/or that you enjoy!

[stainboy]

You have to take the tier system with a grain of salt but I think it got warmage right. I'm comfortable saying that warmages are about as powerful and about as versatile as rogues or barbarians.

[Grendus]

I agree about not following tiers blindly (paladins, for example, got so much splat love that they hit low T4 with ease), but Warmage is about right. It's not T5, it is very good at what it does. The problem is, if you don't want something charred to a crisp as a standard action, he's pretty much useless. That's pretty much the definition of T4.

It's a fun class, and it has some save-or-dies at high levels, which increases it's efficiency. In a campaign like Red Hand of Doom where there are plenty of mooks to slaughter, it'll do good. In a boss heavy campaign, it'll do ok. In an intrigue campaign... bring along a factotem.

[Tyndmyr]

I never said that. What I meant is that IMHO 1 HP/hd is too little to make up for the array of other most d4 classes (usually full casters) have.

Nobody is really contending that the warmage is, on the whole, on par with the tier 1 types. It's clearly a tier 3-4 class(and yes, some optimization is required to get to tier 3). But...it does it's role well. It's a worthwhile class to take if that role interests you, and in that niche, it's competitive with the top classes.

They're certainly not bad, or weak. Just less flexible. The comparison to a barbarian is apt. A well built barbarian is a very competent team member, but he isn't intended to fill every niche.

Warmage really isn't that MAD, compared to say...a sorc. Ok, sure...you have warmage edge based off int. Feh. A sorc doesn't even get it in the first place. It's not THAT fantastic. Int can always be left at the same level as for a sorc. When you factor in that con is less directly important to get the same amount of hp...you're no worse off than a sorc stat-wise. Spells known-wise, you're not actually bad off compared to a sorc in total, and there are some solid spells on your list. If you're going blasty, sorc vs warmage is mostly a question of style. Both can do it quite well.

Also, Warmage makes a solid spont side for Ultimate Magus, if your other side is Wizard. You've already got flexibility from wiz, and you probably banned evocation from wizard anyway. Plus, you happen to have int. It just kinda works out.

[Grendus]

Rainbow Warsnake is pretty T1 imo, but that's the extreme end of optimization. It only gets 8th level spells pre-epic, but casting from the entire cleric spell list at will is... well, that's the definition of T1. No more worrying about having the right spell prepared, if the spell exists, you have it. Pretty T1, especially if you then take other PrC's that give you even more spells known (Sandshaper springs to mind).

As one person put it, the Warmage's biggest advantage is that he's a spontaneous spellcaster who's class features suck, so he has no qualms whatsoever about PrCing around to power himself up.

[Veyr]

It only gets 8th level spells pre-epic
No, it doesn't. A Warmage 10/Rainbow Servant 10 gets 9th level spells at 17th. 18th, if you take that Sandshaper dip.

[Kylarra]

Depends on whether you interpret it as 6/10 or 10/10. 6/10 would indeed cap at 8ths.

[Veyr]

Depends on whether you interpret it as 6/10 or 10/10. 6/10 would indeed cap at 8ths.
There is absolutely no interpretation involved; RAW is very clear that the class is full-casting. Anything else is a house-rule. Possibly a good houserule, but that shouldn't be assumed.

Actually, for non-full-list casters (i.e. anyone but Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage), Rainbow Servant is not worth four spellcasting levels by any stretch of the imagination. For other spontaneous casters, I'm not sure it's worth even one. For Wizard, it's probably worth one or two. For Warmages... it's a massive improvement, no doubt about it, and obviously T1 is not a great balance point, but I'm not convinced that a Rainbow Warsnake is that much better than a simple Wizard.

[sonofzeal]

There is absolutely no interpretation involved; RAW is very clear that the class is full-casting. Anything else is a house-rule. Possibly a good houserule, but that shouldn't be assumed.
RAW is also very clear that a 10th lvl Vigilante has 33 third level spells and no fourth level spells. Yet nobody it runs that way.

Sometimes RAW is objectively wrong. There are occasional typos, formatting mistakes, and obvious oversights. Monks are proficient with unarmed strike, Vigilantes have 3 third lvl spells and 3 fourth lvl spells, and the Rainbow Servant is a 6/10 casting PrC.

[gomipile]

RAW is also very clear that a 10th lvl Vigilante has 33 third level spells and no fourth level spells. Yet nobody it runs that way.

Sometimes RAW is objectively wrong. There are occasional typos, formatting mistakes, and obvious oversights. Monks are proficient with unarmed strike, Vigilantes have 3 third lvl spells and 3 fourth lvl spells, and the Rainbow Servant is a 6/10 casting PrC.

Actually, the 6/10 is an obvious typo. It is supposed to be 10/10. First, the text says it is 10/10. Second, when the book was reprinted in other languages, the tables for Rainbow Servant were corrected to a 10/10 casting progression.

Since text trumps table, it is already a 10/10 by RAW, and since the table was brought in line with the text (and not the other way around) in later editions, the text was obviously typed correctly, and the table was a typo.

[gbprime]

Text trumps table. Period. So regardless of what the chart under Rainbow Servant says, it is described as 10/10 spellcasting, text wins.

Now there's no text that contradicts that 33 spells per day entry for Vigilante, so if you can find a DM willing to let you USE 33 spells per day instead of 3 thrid and 3 fouth, go for it. Of course, if you can find a DM like that, why wouldn't you be playing Pun-Pun ?

Oh, and don't forget your Ring of Wizardry (3rd).

[sonofzeal]

Actually, the 6/10 is an obvious typo. It is supposed to be 10/10. First, the text says it is 10/10. Second, when the book was reprinted in other languages, the tables for Rainbow Servant were corrected to a 10/10 casting progression.

Since text trumps table, it is already a 10/10 by RAW, and since the table was brought in line with the text (and not the other way around) in later editions, the text was obviously typed correctly, and the table was a typo.
I believe you are in error there. My understanding is that all but one foreign language printing has it as 6/10. The Portugese is the only exception, and it stands alone there. If you're going by foreign language printings as evidence, 6/10 wins by a landslide.

Also, on Complete Divine pg 20, it's very specifically in the list for partial casters, not full casters. It's also not the only one in the same book with the same mistake (Sacred Fist comes to mind), where the text doesn't reflect the non-standard progression.

And my whole point was that sometimes RAW is objectively wrong. This is pretty obviously one of those cases.

[gbprime]

Also, on Complete Divine pg 20, it's very specifically in the list for partial casters, not full casters.

And that list on page 20... is a table. Still trumped by text.

Ultimately, its up to your DM to decide.

[MeeposFire]

I don't think you can make a statement that RAW is objectively wrong in this case. You can say that you believe it is wrong but to say it is objectively wrong would require you to prove that it is wrong. Can you do that?

[gbprime]

I don't think you can make a statement that RAW is objectively wrong in this case. You can say that you believe it is wrong but to say it is objectively wrong would require you to prove that it is wrong. Can you do that?

Personally, I wouldn't accept any argument that contains the phrase "but the Portugese printing of the book says otherwise." :smallconfused: Unless your group is bilingual and has copies of each, that's not an issue. (And if it is, I hope you have a firm DM.)

[MeeposFire]

No that is a evidence you would use to rationalize a decision. Text trumps table is standard RAW. If you are going to make a statement that RAW is objectively wrong then you need to prove that text is actually the incorrect part not the table and since we are not the people who wrote it I do not see how you can do that.

[sonofzeal]

No that is a evidence you would use to rationalize a decision. Text trumps table is standard RAW. If you are going to make a statement that RAW is objectively wrong then you need to prove that text is actually the incorrect part not the table and since we are not the people who wrote it I do not see how you can do that.
Not proof, but warrant.

1) It's easier to miss the text than the table in this case. Text is where you always immediately look to verify what an ability does, but if one was intending to make it a 6/10 class it would be easy to forget to add that caveat to the text. Conversely, if one were intending to make it a 10/10 class, it would be very difficult to miss the blatant, obvious errors in the table.

2) The vast preponderance of foreign language printings support the 6/10 rule, again making it more plausible it was intended.

3) As a 10/10 class, it's simply not balanced. In later books they got a bit more generous with casting PrCs, but in Complete Divine era the Rainbow Servant is out of line with what a 10/10 casting PrC generally adds (IotSV aside), and very much resembles the type of partial casting PrCs favoured in the era. Granted it's underpowered as a 6/10, but that's again common for the era. It fits better as a partial caster rather than a full caster.

4) Corroborating evidence, such as pg 20, supports it being intended as a partial caster, and further suggests that the text in this case is a mere copy-paste error. It's also not the only one with the exact same copy-paste error.


Against that... you have RAW, which does admittedly tell you to follow the Text over the Table. Yes, RAW for the English (and Portuguese) printing sides with the 10/10, we all know that.

But I don't think that's enough in this case. The text-over-table rule doesn't seem to be intended for this type of obvious mistake. And it is an obvious mistake, one way or the other. It's not that one's clarifying the other in some way, they flat out contradict; for 4/10 levels, they say the exact opposite things. Often a spell description might give you an inaccurate picture of what the spell does, and the text will clarify that. But in this case it's not about clarifying. And fanatical adherance to the RAW beside, I see no reason to believe the 10/10 was what's intended, and every reason to believe it was a simple copy-paste error.

Again, I'll point back up at Vigilante. RAW clearly gives it 33 third lvl spells. Nobody in their right mind would treat that as anything other than a formatting mistake. RAW is clearly wrong in that case. And it's clearly wrong in this case too.

It's still RAW. If you can convince your DM to let you have it, more power to you. But if you walk into a normal game and just assume that 10/10 Rainbow Warsnakes are cool, I think you've got another thing coming.

[true_shinken]

About the whole "Raibow Servant is 10/10 casting in Portuguese", there is some hstory behind that. The brazilian version was the last of the foreign versions to be published, AFAIK. The translator (a fine guy I met a few times) noticed the disparity between text and table, e-mailed WotC and they told him "tex trumps table".
Of course, they also said it was 6/10 on CustServ many times, so whatever. It's anyone's guess. I'd go with 6/10 if you are trying to milk cheese out of it and 10/10 otherwise. Even limited to 8th level spells at 20, Rainbow Warsnake kicks ass.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this at 339 befoe, I thought sonofzeal would remember it. :smallsmile:

[Thurbane]

FWIW, I'm firmly on the 6/10 side of the debate. RAW aside, RAI would seem obvious to me...

[MeeposFire]

Did they change the text in the other language versions? If not your point is moot since they did not change the text either. If the text was the same that means that each of those versions are equal to the original and thus does not support your cause. The fact that they changed it ever would be a point for RAI since it otherwise has equal support for both views in every previous book. You are trying to show that the table is subjectively wrong, not objectively.

[sonofzeal]

Did they change the text in the other language versions? If not your point is moot since they did not change the text either. If the text was the same that means that each of those versions are equal to the original and thus does not support your cause. The fact that they changed it ever would be a point for RAI since it otherwise has equal support for both views in every previous book. You are trying to show that the table is subjectively wrong, not objectively.
In all but English and Portugese, they changed the text so that both say 6/10.

[MeeposFire]

Oh did the well that certainly helps then. I had not heard that piece of information before so I was under the impression it was still the same.

[gbprime]

FWIW, I'm firmly on the 6/10 side of the debate. RAW aside, RAI would seem obvious to me...

Agreed. Its just usually that RAI is a clarification to RAW, not a contradiction.

Not a big worry for Warmage, anyway. If you wanted versatility, you'd have played a different class. :smallwink:

[Noneoyabizzness]

Ok. Quick shenanigans q

Could a warmage with versatile spellcaster pull off warmage 1/ rs 10/ mage of arcane order 9?

[The Glyphstone]

Ok. Quick shenanigans q

Could a warmage with versatile spellcaster pull off warmage 1/ rs 10/ mage of arcane order 9?

No - even with VS, the warmage can only cast 2nd level spells. RS requires 3rd level spells, and VS explicitly can't be used to 'fuel' itself. You'd need at least Warmage 4.

[sreservoir]

humans can do it with earth spell and versatile spellcaster, two flaws; illumians can do it with improved krau and versatile spellcaster, one flaw.

anyway, since almost all rainbow warsnakes want to qualify with versatile spellcaster, and qualify for it later in any case, the "only up to 8ths" doesn't even matter that much. sure, you're three levels behind prepared casters, but you do get 9ths, just fewer.

[dextercorvia]

Human can do it with Versatile and Sanctum, no flaws.

[UnholyPenance]

What do you think of Warmages they seem kick ass to me. There needs to be a wizard of course, but they could take the place of like a ranger because their spells do do a lot of damage

From my playthrough experience (i'm playing a campaign as a Warmage with three other caster-types) and he seems overpowered, borderline broken. As i have him built now, a minimum damage cantrip does ten damage. Plus, the area that he's in (a demon heavy dungeon level) is, essentially, a cakewalk. The majority of his spells do not offer SR and do not offer a saving throw. Combined that with a mageblade, magister (wizard pretty much) and a bard/rouge/druid (don't ask) and we steamroll through everything. The other guys say the Warmage is broken.

[Prime32]

From my playthrough experience (i'm playing a campaign as a Warmage with three other caster-types) and he seems overpowered, borderline broken. As i have him built now, a minimum damage cantrip does ten damage. Plus, the area that he's in (a demon heavy dungeon level) is, essentially, a cakewalk. The majority of his spells do not offer SR and do not offer a saving throw. Combined that with a mageblade, magister (wizard pretty much) and a bard/rouge/druid (don't ask) and we steamroll through everything. The other guys say the Warmage is broken.What level are you? Because an orc barbarian with a greatsword deals an average of 13 damage with each swing at lv1, before taking rage or Power Attack into account. A warmage can't do that all day.

Before you say "he can't do that at range", a cantrip at lv1 has a max range of 30ft. A composite longbow has a max range of 1100ft and deals 10.5 damage on each shot for the above character. This ranged barbarian can't Power Attack, but he can use Whirling Frenzy to make two attacks as a standard action; his average damage per round while frenzied is 25.

[Veyr]

From my playthrough experience (i'm playing a campaign as a Warmage with three other caster-types) and he seems overpowered, borderline broken. As i have him built now, a minimum damage cantrip does ten damage. Plus, the area that he's in (a demon heavy dungeon level) is, essentially, a cakewalk. The majority of his spells do not offer SR and do not offer a saving throw. Combined that with a mageblade, magister (wizard pretty much) and a bard/rouge/druid (don't ask) and we steamroll through everything. The other guys say the Warmage is broken.
Your group's power level and opposition seem to be very much below average. 10 damage on a limited-use-per-day ability, even if it is a Cantrip, is simply not impressive at all.

[Amphetryon]

Where's Mageblade from in 3.5, please?

[gbprime]

Where's Mageblade from in 3.5, please?

3rd party. Arcana Evolved. Ditto with Magister.

[UnholyPenance]

What level are you? Because an orc barbarian with a greatsword deals an average of 13 damage with each swing at lv1, before taking rage or Power Attack into account. A warmage can't do that all day.

Before you say "he can't do that at range", a cantrip at lv1 has a max range of 30ft. A composite longbow has a max range of 1100ft and deals 10.5 damage on each shot for the above character. This ranged barbarian can't Power Attack, but he can use Whirling Frenzy to make two attacks as a standard action; his average damage per round while frenzied is 25.

We're ninth level, close to tenth level. Personally, i don't think that the Warmage is broken because all the spells that make him 'broken' are available to the Sorcerer as well. The group i'm with believes that it is, so i'm soft of passing along their mindset.

[gomipile]

Human can do it with Versatile and Sanctum, no flaws.

There are two problems with that.

First, it is argued that you still need Heighten Spell, since it can be interpreted that the warmage does not gain access to a new level of spells until their spells per day chart says they do. The interpretation you are using is based on the fluff of the class, not the crunch.

Second, at least one DM I have talked to says that he would rule that the character loses all benefit of being a Rainbow Servant while out of his sanctum, even at high levels. His reasoning is that the character has to at all times be legal at every level of the build. Basically, he is using the same reasoning that is presented in RAW for retraining. So, if you are out of your sanctum, your "level 1 self" cannot cast 3rd level arcane spells, and thus does not qualify for Rainbow Servant.

[Keld Denar]

The problem with that restiction on Sanctum Spell, is that it opens up whole new levels of game brokeness.

So, Skittle Servant requires 3rd level spells to enter. You go completely traditional and take 6 levels of Warmage (or whatever) to get in. You take your 1st level, of it, and you have what, 5 3rd level spells per day. You cast the first one, then the second, then the 3rd, then the 4th, and finally the 5th. You've cast all of your 3rd level spells for the day, so you can no longer cast 3rd level spells. Thus, you no longer qualify for the PrC, and loses all of the features.

But this doesn't happen, because the game doesn't care that at any given time, you don't fulfil the casting requirements, only that you COULD fulfil the casting requirements at a given time in a given condition. Being or not being in your sanctum is a condition that does or doesn't allow you to cast 3rd level spells, just like spells/day remaining is a condition that does or doesn't allow you to cast 3rd level spells. If one condition disqualifies the PrC, then both conditions disqualify the PrC and the game breaks WIDE open at that point.

So...yea...

[Tyndmyr]

Second, at least one DM I have talked to says that he would rule that the character loses all benefit of being a Rainbow Servant while out of his sanctum, even at high levels. His reasoning is that the character has to at all times be legal at every level of the build. Basically, he is using the same reasoning that is presented in RAW for retraining. So, if you are out of your sanctum, your "level 1 self" cannot cast 3rd level arcane spells, and thus does not qualify for Rainbow Servant.

This DM does not understand how prereqs work. That pretty much makes PrCs just fail to work, ridiculously often.

See also, Dragon Disciple.

[dextercorvia]

There are two problems with that.

First, it is argued that you still need Heighten Spell, since it can be interpreted that the warmage does not gain access to a new level of spells until their spells per day chart says they do. The interpretation you are using is based on the fluff of the class, not the crunch.

Second, at least one DM I have talked to says that he would rule that the character loses all benefit of being a Rainbow Servant while out of his sanctum, even at high levels. His reasoning is that the character has to at all times be legal at every level of the build. Basically, he is using the same reasoning that is presented in RAW for retraining. So, if you are out of your sanctum, your "level 1 self" cannot cast 3rd level arcane spells, and thus does not qualify for Rainbow Servant.

Second paragraph first. Just because one DM would rule that way does not make it RAW.

Your first argument is interesting and contradicts itself. You seem to be saying that they don't gain spells until it says so on their chart, unless you have Heighten? We are using the same statement:


When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list.

Either that means only when he gains them through class level advancement (not explicitly spelled out, unlike bonus spells from high ability scores), or he gains spells known whenever he would have the ability to cast that level spell except for not knowing them. The first reading would preclude the use of Heighten. The second reading would obviate its use. It is also RAW.

[gomipile]

No, I'm saying that some have said that they do not gain new levels of spells at all until their table sys they do. Heighten would then be required to cast a level 1 spell as a level 2 spell with Versatile Spellcaster, which then gets bumped up to a 3rd with Sanctum Spell.

I don't particularly agree with this reasoning either, and I think that the warmage should be able to get by with just Versatile Spellcaster and Sanctum Spell.

[dextercorvia]

I prefer a Bloodline feat to Heighten, if it is deemed necessary. That grants an honest spell known at every level from first. Also, they can provide some utility.

[gomipile]

I prefer a Bloodline feat to Heighten, if it is deemed necessary. That grants an honest spell known at every level from first. Also, they can provide some utility.

I'm not sure what you mean. The only spell related feat that has to do with bloodlines that I could find only gives +2 caster level for some spells.

[Tvtyrant]

This DM does not understand how prereqs work. That pretty much makes PrCs just fail to work, ridiculously often.

See also, Dragon Disciple.

Actually I believe Curmudgeon recently pointed out a rule where if you lose the pre-reqs for a Prc you lose the Prc levels until the prereqs are restored. He used it as an argument for using items to match Prc reqs, but I don't know which thread it was in.

[gbprime]

I'm not sure what you mean. The only spell related feat that has to do with bloodlines that I could find only gives +2 caster level for some spells.

Try Dragon Magazine Compendium.

[Veyr]

Actually I believe Curmudgeon recently pointed out a rule where if you lose the pre-reqs for a Prc you lose the Prc levels until the prereqs are restored. He used it as an argument for using items to match Prc reqs, but I don't know which thread it was in.
Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane both contained the same side-bar. Unfortunately, it's not included in any of the other books, including (most importantly), the DMG. That means that technically, those rules only affect the PrCs from those books (even though the side-bars themselves do not specify such, but rather seem to want to apply themselves to all PrCs; WotC's Errata/primary source rules don't let them do that. Also note that many PrCs, most notoriously the Dragon Disciple, do not work with those rules).

However, the rules do indicate that items can be used to qualify for things, and they don't appear to be (that is, to the best of my knowledge) contradicting any prior books, which would imply that this has always been the rule (and that even in Core before those books were printed, a Ring of Evasion could have qualified a character for a PrC requiring Evasion).

[sreservoir]

sanctum spell has a metamagic feat as a prereq, so unless you want to do self-dependent retraining cheese, you still need flaws.

[dextercorvia]

sanctum spell has a metamagic feat as a prereq, so unless you want to do self-dependent retraining cheese, you still need flaws.

I often forget that. Yep, still need flaws.

[Jerthanis]

Warmages get a good variety of offensive spells that make them fully acceptable characters, and their versatility in choosing whichever one they want is actually a concrete advantage that a lot of people seem to gloss over. It's not simply a variety of shapes and elements of raw damage, they get surprising Save or Loses, almost every Save or Die, and a pretty diverse selection of Saving throws they can target spontaneously. When a Sorcerer hits a new Spell level, he gets 1 spell he can cast 3 times, always targeting the same save. When a Warmage hits a new Spell level, he gets about 9 spells he can cast 3 spells from, each of which can hit a different guy's weak point.

They get some surprising tricks that you wouldn't think were all that, but end up being pretty sweet in the right situations. Hail of Stone, Pyrotechnics, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Phantasmal Killer, Acid Fog, the Prismatics, Finger of Death, Scintilating Pattern...

I'm not saying they're the bee's knees, but I'd say that if you play one and take full advantage of your class (rather than mindlessly spamming Fireball every round) you'll make a good account of yourself in anything other than a party of Wizard, Cleric, Beguiler.

[gomipile]

Warmages get a good variety of offensive spells that make them fully acceptable characters, and their versatility in choosing whichever one they want is actually a concrete advantage that a lot of people seem to gloss over. It's not simply a variety of shapes and elements of raw damage, they get surprising Save or Loses, almost every Save or Die, and a pretty diverse selection of Saving throws they can target spontaneously. When a Sorcerer hits a new Spell level, he gets 1 spell he can cast 3 times, always targeting the same save. When a Warmage hits a new Spell level, he gets about 9 spells he can cast 3 spells from, each of which can hit a different guy's weak point.

They get some surprising tricks that you wouldn't think were all that, but end up being pretty sweet in the right situations. Hail of Stone, Pyrotechnics, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Phantasmal Killer, Acid Fog, the Prismatics, Finger of Death, Scintilating Pattern...

I'm not saying they're the bee's knees, but I'd say that if you play one and take full advantage of your class (rather than mindlessly spamming Fireball every round) you'll make a good account of yourself in anything other than a party of Wizard, Cleric, Beguiler.

Yeah, I'd have to say that the Warmage is well designed for its tier, if a bit MAD.

[darkdragoon]

It's overspecialized to the point where it even ignores things you would expect a blaster to be able to do. Like getting more "boom" out of wands.

[Tyndmyr]

It's overspecialized to the point where it even ignores things you would expect a blaster to be able to do. Like getting more "boom" out of wands.

That's not something I expect every blaster to be able to do.

And they generally have enough oomph through sheer spell slots that this is not a serious lack.

[sonofzeal]

Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane both contained the same side-bar. Unfortunately, it's not included in any of the other books, including (most importantly), the DMG. That means that technically, those rules only affect the PrCs from those books (even though the side-bars themselves do not specify such, but rather seem to want to apply themselves to all PrCs; WotC's Errata/primary source rules don't let them do that. Also note that many PrCs, most notoriously the Dragon Disciple, do not work with those rules).
Curmudgeon and I have a long-running disagreement on that. I firmly believe the "primary source" rules don't work like he seems to think they work. They only resolve contradictions; what CWar/CArc add isn't a contradiction, it's a resolution to an otherwise unspecified case. As such, they are the primary source on that rule and the rule is hence valid outside those two books.

And Curmudgeon's interpretation of "primary source" is also quite problematic, literal reading asside. It would render the entire Rules Compendium utterly moot, for one. It would also invalidate all those extra uses of skill in various books, like Intimidate in ToB, because apparently the PHB is the "primary source" on what Intimidate does and it allows for no such option. Balderdash.

Dragon Disciple and Survivor are awkward, but both are easily resolved with special DM dispensation.

[dextercorvia]

Primary source rule, or no, I find it more likely that those passages were copied from 3.0 without realizing that it had [intentionally] been left out of 3.5's DMG. Remember every splat has to behave as though you are playing with core and that book alone. If those passages had been intended to apply, they would have been reprinted in every one of the books that offers PrC's. For a witness, consider the swift/immediate action rules.

[darkdragoon]

That's not something I expect every blaster to be able to do.

And they generally have enough oomph through sheer spell slots that this is not a serious lack.

Not "every" perhaps, but the one who has it as their calling call?

I'd agree that Edge is an afterthought after a few spell levels, but that just highlights the problem. Early on, when they don't have as many ways to blow things up, and when carrying a simple, arguably standard issue if you have the resources to train armies Wand of Fireballs and such, they can't use their feature. Not do they gain "do I want to shoot more? of course" stuff like Metamagic Spell Trigger.

[The Glyphstone]

That'd be counterintuitive though. Wands/scrolls are blasting tools for non-blaster mages; they're always weaker/lower-level than the same spell cast out of a spell slot. Why would a dedicated blaster mage have tools or abilities related to bringing the substandard effects of consumable items (which also cost money) up to the level of the attacks he already has?

[Keld Denar]

Eh, if you spend a feat on Residual Magic (CMage), you can buy all of your wands at minimum level. Then, you cast a Magic Missile at CL 9, and when you activate your CL1 Wand of Magic Missile the next round, it'll also be CL 9.

Decent if your DM is notorious for marathon encounters. A min CL Wand of Fireball will double your Fireballs/day for about a week and a half of straight encounters before you burn through the whole thing.

[TurtleKing]

Or just grab a reserve feat or two. It raises your CL on some of your spells, and you can blast all day long as long as you don't cast certain spells too much.

[Tyndmyr]

Curmudgeon and I have a long-running disagreement on that. I firmly believe the "primary source" rules don't work like he seems to think they work. They only resolve contradictions; what CWar/CArc add isn't a contradiction, it's a resolution to an otherwise unspecified case. As such, they are the primary source on that rule and the rule is hence valid outside those two books.

And Curmudgeon's interpretation of "primary source" is also quite problematic, literal reading asside. It would render the entire Rules Compendium utterly moot, for one. It would also invalidate all those extra uses of skill in various books, like Intimidate in ToB, because apparently the PHB is the "primary source" on what Intimidate does and it allows for no such option. Balderdash.

His interpretation is a bit silly. Rules compendium is the primary source on rules, and should be used where there is confusion. That's why it exists.


Dragon Disciple and Survivor are awkward, but both are easily resolved with special DM dispensation.

See, there's your contradiction. In short, those rules cause other rules to basically cover themselves in feces and run through the street screaming "look at me!".

So, you do the normal thing in case of contradiction and revert to the primary source. I can think of no reason why Complete warrior, etc would be the primary source for all prestige classes.

[Veyr]

Doesn't Rules Compendium officially state in its intro that it is revising some things and therefore acts as Errata, and thus gets around the primary source thing?

[Vinyadan]

I just checked the Italian version of CD (Perfetto Sacerdote), the text explicitly says that there are 4 levels of Rainbow Servant in which you don't gain spells known or spells per day. So, in Italy, RAW is that of 6/10.

[dextercorvia]

The trouble with Warmage is that it doesn't have a niche. In a High-Op group, if you chose to play one straight (no Rainbow), you will be laughed at for choosing a class that is inferior in every way to several other classes at its intended function. In a Low-Op group, you will be looked upon as a powergamer. "You can cast in armor, know tons of DD spells, get a d6 HD, and +Int to damage -- so Broken!!"

[sonofzeal]

See, there's your contradiction. In short, those rules cause other rules to basically cover themselves in feces and run through the street screaming "look at me!".

So, you do the normal thing in case of contradiction and revert to the primary source. I can think of no reason why Complete warrior, etc would be the primary source for all prestige classes.
There's a number of cases that leave the rules drooling onto their straightjacket, either way. The "normal" thing, then, is to use discretion if and when it actually comes up in a game. I don't think any reasonable DM would cause the game to grind to a halt if a Dragon Disciple maxed out. RAW might be awkward there, but RAI is completely clear. Same for Survivor. And those are the only two cases I know of where the class itself can cause you to lose the prereq's.

And either way, that Shrodinger's DD doesn't matter if you're adhering strictly to the RAW. Either the RAW says you lose it or the RAW doesn't. If the RAW says you lose it, then yes DD become a danger to game integrity. But even if it resurrected Hitler and caused WWIII, it'd still be RAW.

Personally, I'm not fanatical about RAW, as you may have guessed from my "creative builds" thread. I tend to use convenient houserules all the time. And for me, it makes more sense to lose it if you cease to qualify. You can't exactly be a Bloodhound if you lose the Track feat. You can't be a Blackguard if you become Good. You can't be a Seeker of the Song if you lose Bardic Music. From a narrative, verisimilitude standpoint if nothing else, it makes much more sense to lose it. I'd allow easy retraining of course, I see no reason to screw players over what was probably an RP decision, but they'd have to head in a different direction.

So - strictest RAW supports losing it (and DD is an unfortunate side effect), and even without RAW I'd still generally rule you lose it. DD and Survivor can be granted special dispensation if/when they come up, or in a more postmodern campaign might lead to humorous plothooks of their own.

[subject42]

Has anyone ever done a solid, well made homebrew version of the Warmage?

[Tyndmyr]

Has anyone ever done a solid, well made homebrew version of the Warmage?

Yes. It is called the Warmage. They then printed it in a book, making it no longer homebrew.

[subject42]

Yes. It is called the Warmage. They then printed it in a book, making it no longer homebrew.

Sir or Madam, I am truly amused. To clarify, I am asking if anyone has put together a nicely homebrewed Warmage that would solve some of the complaints that people have posted.

These include, but are not limited to, the following:


Spell List is Large, but Largely Redundant
Slight MAD issues
Class features such as weapon proficiencies are largely unused.

[TurtleKing]

So basically just like the original?

Edit: Oh.:smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

So basically just like the original?

...he's saying those are things to be fixed, not features to include.

[sonofzeal]

Sir or Madam, I am truly amused. To clarify, I am asking if anyone has put together a nicely homebrewed Warmage that would solve some of the complaints that people have posted.

These include, but are not limited to, the following:


Spell List is Large, but Largely Redundant
Slight MAD issues
Class features such as weapon proficiencies are largely unused.

Warmage isn't weak. It isn't unplayable. It's not as good as a Wizard or Sorc, but it's an entirely functional class, able to hold its own in your average party. It's a far cry better than the Healer and Truenamer, and perhaps on par with Shadowcaster if less flexible. It might be somewhere around the Warlock in power, depending on who you ask and your starting assumptions.

I don't see why it needs a fix.


(But if you need one - open up all Evocation spells automatically, and replace "Advanced Learning" with "Eclectic Learning" as the default assumption. Maybe add 3/4 BAB, it won't make a big difference either way.)

[Thurbane]

Not "every" perhaps, but the one who has it as their calling call?

I'd agree that Edge is an afterthought after a few spell levels, but that just highlights the problem. Early on, when they don't have as many ways to blow things up, and when carrying a simple, arguably standard issue if you have the resources to train armies Wand of Fireballs and such, they can't use their feature. Not do they gain "do I want to shoot more? of course" stuff like Metamagic Spell Trigger.
I'm pretty sure there was a RAW discussion recently that argued spell completion and spell trigger items do count as casting, for things like Waramage Edge.

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10363021&postcount=429)

Never mind, I just re-read Warmage Edge, and it specifically says it does not apply to magic items other than staves.

[Prime32]

Sir or Madam, I am truly amused. To clarify, I am asking if anyone has put together a nicely homebrewed Warmage that would solve some of the complaints that people have posted.

These include, but are not limited to, the following:


Spell List is Large, but Largely Redundant
Slight MAD issues
Class features such as weapon proficiencies are largely unused.

Already posted my homebrew warmage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3053.msg94900#msg94900).

[subject42]

Thanks Prime and Zeal. I'll ruminate on those ideas for the future.