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Sir_Chivalry
2011-03-31, 06:59 PM
OH NO, ANOTHER PALADIN THREAD!!

So, I'm looking for advice in the terms of in-game consequences and reactions to the direction the player of a paladin plans to take her character.

So I have a player, quite melodramatic at times, who has a grand plan for her character. She is an elf whose entire family and indeed country was slaughtered at the hands of a genocidal blackguard. At the time the blackguard spared her because he saw promise in her to become like him, as he was once a victim of similar circumstances many centuries ago.

Anyways, she's decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge, she's going to seduce him, sleep with him, and join him as both lover and lieutenant for his armies.

The player is fine with falling for this, but what would the fallout be from her Order (a particularly militant one) and from those around her who found out about this action?

Yukitsu
2011-03-31, 07:05 PM
Depends on the kind of game you're running, if the player wants to go full circle on this (kill him, but after rejection from the order takes up his helmet and leads the army as its new leader) or if she'd rather keep on being a paladin at heart. Everything that you plan for that character is going to ultimately stem from that, and really, you'll need to work together to make this kind of thing work. Trust me, been there done that.

Talakeal
2011-03-31, 07:07 PM
A person would definitely fall for this, and I would actually think they would have fallen long ago or likely never even become a paladin in the first place if they think like this.

That said, I think it is a fine character motivation. Her allies would probably deal with her like any other traitor, although I don't have enough information to say exactly how that is.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-03-31, 07:09 PM
A person would definitely fall for this, and I would actually think they would have fallen long ago or likely never even become a paladin in the first place if they think like this.

That said, I think it is a fine character motivation. Her allies would probably deal with her like any other traitor, although I don't have enough information to say exactly how that is.

Well she's sleeping with one of them, and will become pregnant with a child she will claim is the warlord's, so I'd say not well on that guy's part.

Coidzor
2011-03-31, 07:09 PM
^: In that case, do you really want to have jealousy-fueled infanticide of one's own child in your game? Because that's a very real possibility from the information you just put forward.



They'd obviously assume she had gone rogue and seek to eliminate her along with him.

Edit: It seems to me, however, that she's being needlessly disruptive by leaving the party and wanting to keep up with the character and just building up the opportunity to create more discord and chaos at the table.

WitchSlayer
2011-03-31, 07:59 PM
Why..

What

Who

SEND IN THE CHURCH ASSASSINS.

dsmiles
2011-03-31, 08:06 PM
OH NO, ANOTHER PALADIN THREAD!!

So, I'm looking for advice in the terms of in-game consequences and reactions to the direction the player of a paladin plans to take her character.

So I have a player, quite melodramatic at times, who has a grand plan for her character. She is an elf whose entire family and indeed country was slaughtered at the hands of a genocidal blackguard. At the time the blackguard spared her because he saw promise in her to become like him, as he was once a victim of similar circumstances many centuries ago.

Anyways, she's decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge, she's going to seduce him, sleep with him, and join him as both lover and lieutenant for his armies.

The player is fine with falling for this, but what would the fallout be from her Order (a particularly militant one) and from those around her who found out about this action?

You just wrote my next adventure. Find and recover a lost agent. Awesome. Thanks. :smallsmile:

On topic: I think her order would, at a minimum, expel her and banish her for life, and her allies (depending on alignment) would either reject her (Lawful Good), or embrace the opportunity to bring down the evil warlord (Neutral and Chaotic Good)

Yukitsu
2011-03-31, 08:06 PM
You know, it's perfectly acceptable for the guy doing the triple double X cross to you know, tell the people on their actual side what they're doing, and thus avoid some of the axing.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-03-31, 08:15 PM
You know, it's perfectly acceptable for the guy doing the triple double X cross to you know, tell the people on their actual side what they're doing, and thus avoid some of the axing.

Ya, this player wants to be secretive.

Talakeal
2011-03-31, 08:28 PM
Honestly the breach here is not so much one of good vs. evil or even law vs. chaos, it is a matter of honor. Twisting someone's emotions and using deception to hurt them is not heroic, and just because someone is non good or non lawful does not mean they will approve of or go along with these tactics. I would think it would be a very bad move to tell her allies (at least her npc allies) her plans lest they bring the conflict to the open, thereby exposing and ruining her plans.

Coidzor
2011-03-31, 08:45 PM
On topic: I think her order would, at a minimum, expel her and banish her for life, and her allies (depending on alignment) would either reject her (Lawful Good), or embrace the opportunity to bring down the evil warlord (Neutral and Chaotic Good)

Eh? Um, she already left the order to join Evil McGenocide(as a lover no less...when he deliberately was killing elves for being elves...ow my brain). Expelling her from the order and banishing her is basically what she did to herself already.


You know, it's perfectly acceptable for the guy doing the triple double X cross to you know, tell the people on their actual side what they're doing, and thus avoid some of the axing.

But then Evil McGenocide might find out and use poison on her when they sleep together.

Alas, I'll probably never get to use BoEF, probably for the best though...

Sir_Chivalry
2011-03-31, 08:47 PM
Eh? Um, she already left the order to join Evil McGenocide(as a lover no less...when he deliberately was killing elves for being elves...ow my brain). Expelling her from the order and banishing her is basically what she did to herself already.

Not yet, she's keeping it a secret at the moment. This won't end well.

Coidzor
2011-03-31, 08:48 PM
Not yet, she's keeping it a secret at the moment. This won't end well.

Ok, so once they find out they know she's left the order and has gone all cacklingly evil to sleep with the man who killed her people so there's again, no point in expelling or banishing her.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-03-31, 08:50 PM
Ok, so once they find out they know she's left the order and has gone all cacklingly evil to sleep with the man who killed her people so there's again, no point in expelling or banishing her.

True. Anyone familiar with the Order of Illumination from Comp Adventurer?

Ya, that order. For extra fun I smooshed it together with the Church of the Silver Flame from Eberron in my world. LE high cardinal ftw.

comicshorse
2011-04-01, 06:26 AM
She is going to fall so hard she'll leave a crater

Firemage
2011-04-01, 06:52 AM
Not really familiar with D&D, but I think she shouldn't have become a paladin in the first place, if she planned that even before she joined the order.


It sounds like she would become villain material.
Anyway I guess the order would send agents to either capture and try to redeem her or, if that fails, outright kill her. A more militant order would probably only do the latter.


She is going to fall so hard she'll leave a crater

What he said

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-01, 07:47 AM
Just a reminder, she's doing this in an attempt to kill him. Not that I think this voids any of your answers, but just saying there's a "kill the evil warlord" step in this list of goals.

hamishspence
2011-04-01, 08:02 AM
The Order of Illumination are, in Complete Adventurer, known for being willing to sacrifice the innocent in the fight against evil.

Though in these cases "sacrifice" might be more "take actions that you know will result in collateral damage" rather than outright murder.

Plus, the book mentions that the organization is prone to corruption anyway- with people who have fallen all the way to blackguard, yet still see their actions as necessary and themselves as good people.

So- if this character is on the path to evil- she might receive secret support from those within the order who have embraced "ends justify means" morality a bit too much.

(though she might be publically condemned by the "mainstream" members when they find out).

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-01, 08:22 AM
The Order of Illumination are, in Complete Adventurer, known for being willing to sacrifice the innocent in the fight against evil.

Though in these cases "sacrifice" might be more "take actions that you know will result in collateral damage" rather than outright murder.

Plus, the book mentions that the organization is prone to corruption anyway- with people who have fallen all the way to blackguard, yet still see their actions as necessary and themselves as good people.

So- if this character is on the path to evil- she might receive secret support from those within the order who have embraced "ends justify means" morality a bit too much.

(though she might be publically condemned by the "mainstream" members when they find out).

Actually, that brings up a good point. The Order is sort of a wild card here. On the one hand she's living the mantra of doing anything to save innocent people, but on the other hand she's clearly being corrupted, if not by the blackguard than by her own lust for revenge.

I was thinking when the party goes to meet the head of the Order of Illumination/Silver Flame mix, that he would be aware of these actions and react negativly towards the paladin, but considering his Lawful Evil nature (I'm using High Cardinal Krozen from Eberron, see Five Nations, who is a LE cleric 12) he might be more lenient towards her actions.

Any thoughts?

And on another note, is cleric 12 suitable for the head of the Order of Illumination, or do you guys have any better ideas?

hamishspence
2011-04-01, 09:07 AM
Maybe multiclass? Cleric/rogue/shadowbane Inquisitor?

Morghen
2011-04-01, 09:38 AM
And on another note, is cleric 12 suitable for the head of the Order of Illumination, or do you guys have any better ideas?Head of any religious organization should be quite a bit higher than 12. I'd prolly go as high as 16.

That said, my advice is general, not specific. I don't know anything about this Order of Illumination. But having some awesome prestige class could be cool.

hamishspence
2011-04-01, 09:42 AM
Eberron is famous for having low level characters in high positions of power.

That said, Players Guide To Eberron suggests bumping up the villains if the campaign finally gets to high level- for example, making Vol a demilich rather than a lich.

mangosta71
2011-04-01, 09:48 AM
She wants to keep it secret, and she's a member of a militant order? She has no reason to expect leniency. I would expect her Order to dispatch a champion specifically to seek her out and put her down.

Also, the head or her Order is LE? The god they serve has to be LN for that to work by the one-step rule. Is it St. Cuthbert? He seems like a reasonable fit for the character's initial motivation. But there's no way he'd be okay with this plan, even if the head of the order is.

hamishspence
2011-04-01, 09:51 AM
It's Eberron- clerics can be of any alignment, regardless of the alignment of the deity.

The silver flame is LG- Krozen is LE- but the Eberron-specific rules allow it.

EDIT: Apparently it's not Eberron- but a homebrew world that has drawn ideas from various places, including Eberron. Still- the same principle applies- to have a LE cleric of an LG deity, generally needs the same kind of modification as Eberron does.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-01, 02:48 PM
It's Eberron- clerics can be of any alignment, regardless of the alignment of the deity.

The silver flame is LG- Krozen is LE- but the Eberron-specific rules allow it.

EDIT: Apparently it's not Eberron- but a homebrew world that has drawn ideas from various places, including Eberron. Still- the same principle applies- to have a LE cleric of an LG deity, generally needs the same kind of modification as Eberron does.

That it is. Eberron just seemed like a good place to go for some interesting things, and the Order of Illumination proved to be playing quite an important part in the world, so to expand them I tacked te Silver Flame's details onto it.

The paladin worships Ehlonna, Krozen worships the "Light of Illumination" (The Silver Flame of my world)

I was wondering whether a sort of pugilist character might work. Does anyone know a good way (besides Swordsage, I know that one) to do the monk thing, preferably with the flurry intact? Either I'd use it for Krozen or his special assassin.

Asheram
2011-04-01, 03:08 PM
OH NO, ANOTHER PALADIN THREAD!!

So, I'm looking for advice in the terms of in-game consequences and reactions to the direction the player of a paladin plans to take her character.

So I have a player, quite melodramatic at times, who has a grand plan for her character. She is an elf whose entire family and indeed country was slaughtered at the hands of a genocidal blackguard. At the time the blackguard spared her because he saw promise in her to become like him, as he was once a victim of similar circumstances many centuries ago.

Anyways, she's decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge, she's going to seduce him, sleep with him, and join him as both lover and lieutenant for his armies.

Personally? I'd make her fall just for even Consider this.
and
How'd this be a revenge?



The player is fine with falling for this, but what would the fallout be from her Order (a particularly militant one) and from those around her who found out about this action?

Well... The order Is militant, so... I wouldn't be surprised if they banished and sent the assassins (she has lots of little secrets of the order that they probably doesn't want her to expose).

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-01, 03:11 PM
Personally? I'd make her fall just for even Consider this.
and
How'd this be a revenge?

Clarification, I said, " . . . decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge . . .", that's not the revenge. That's to facilitate the revenge. The sword in his gut is her revenge.

Shyftir
2011-04-01, 03:42 PM
She falls, but after she takes down the bad guy, go take a look at the Grey Guard in Complete Scoundrel. She will need to atone though.

Asheram
2011-04-01, 03:45 PM
Clarification, I said, " . . . decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge . . .", that's not the revenge. That's to facilitate the revenge. The sword in his gut is her revenge.

Ah, yeah.. I just meant that, that was his plan all along, wasn't it? To make her the same as him.

This pretty little elven lass, growing up as a paladin, making her fall and betraying all she believed in just to murder him... Hah!
*dying words* "Heh... I love being right. And I even got you to shag me."

(How old is that blackguard by the way? And that elven girl?)

Surrealistik
2011-04-01, 03:48 PM
Why..

What

Who

SEND IN THE CHURCH ASSASSINS.

Someone call for an Oath of Enmity?

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-01, 03:56 PM
She falls, but after she takes down the bad guy, go take a look at the Grey Guard in Complete Scoundrel. She will need to atone though.

I'm aware of it, but after the bad guy is taken down, game's over anyway.


Ah, yeah.. I just meant that, that was his plan all along, wasn't it? To make her the same as him.

This pretty little elven lass, growing up as a paladin, making her fall and betraying all she believed in just to murder him... Hah!
*dying words* "Heh... I love being right. And I even got you to shag me."

(How old is that blackguard by the way? And that elven girl?)

It was his plan. My player is thinks she's being clever and tricking him. He did the whole "being secretive about being evil" thing when he was young too.

Oh, by the way, those are now his final words to her. Bless you laddie!

I'll start with the elf- winged elf of 114 years, roughly equivalent to a 16 year old human if starting ages follow a relation.

The blackguard? Was a human five hundred years ago, fighter protecting his king's daughter. He betrayed them all and died, going to Baator, where he repented and became a hellbred. The process was not exact though, timewise, and he came back 480 years after his kingdom had fallen. Began work as a paladin, worked really hard, but when the master of an assassin's guild killed some children in front of him, he lost it and started a downward spiral into evil, culminating into his decision to become a death knight. For the next twenty years he began his crusade to return the word back to the way it was, and he sees the demihumans as a threat to this new world. Was recently brought back into a young mortal body, but is 550 years old (in human years, with only 50 of those counting in the mortal realm, and only 30 as a non-undead) if all of his time counts linearly.

Asheram
2011-04-01, 04:17 PM
Oh, by the way, those are now his final words to her. Bless you laddie!


You're most welcome, Sir. :smallwink:



I'll start with the elf- winged elf of 114 years, roughly equivalent to a 16 year old human if starting ages follow a relation.


*shivers* Yeah... this does sound a bit like the plan a sixteen year old would come up with, and I'm seriously grossed out by the mental pictures it gives me.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-01, 09:05 PM
You're most welcome, Sir. :smallwink:



*shivers* Yeah... this does sound a bit like the plan a sixteen year old would come up with, and I'm seriously grossed out by the mental pictures it gives me.

Well the character's current lover is in his early twenties sooooo; less creepy?

wizuriel
2011-04-02, 09:57 AM
I was wondering whether a sort of pugilist character might work. Does anyone know a good way (besides Swordsage, I know that one) to do the monk thing, preferably with the flurry intact? Either I'd use it for Krozen or his special assassin.

Look at totemist from Magic of Incarnum. They can do some fun natural weapon fighting stuff.

Xuc Xac
2011-04-02, 10:46 AM
For a more dignified version of those final words, there are the final words of Konrad Curze from Warhammer 40K when he allowed an assassin to kill him to prove that he was justified in rebelling against their corrupt regime: "Death is nothing compared to vindication."

Asheram
2011-04-02, 02:08 PM
Well the character's current lover is in his early twenties sooooo; less creepy?

*chuckles* A little bit, but it's more the whole concept.

Bad Ash, no derailment.

Anyhow, had any more thoughts upon The Order that we can prod untill we achieve progress?

Starbuck_II
2011-04-02, 02:18 PM
OH NO, ANOTHER PALADIN THREAD!!

So, I'm looking for advice in the terms of in-game consequences and reactions to the direction the player of a paladin plans to take her character.

So I have a player, quite melodramatic at times, who has a grand plan for her character. She is an elf whose entire family and indeed country was slaughtered at the hands of a genocidal blackguard. At the time the blackguard spared her because he saw promise in her to become like him, as he was once a victim of similar circumstances many centuries ago.

Anyways, she's decided in order to get close enough to him to enact her revenge, she's going to seduce him, sleep with him, and join him as both lover and lieutenant for his armies.

The player is fine with falling for this, but what would the fallout be from her Order (a particularly militant one) and from those around her who found out about this action?

Wait, when she commit a evil act: why would she fall?
Is she planning on lying a gross amount of times (144 is a gross in numericals)?
When she slays good then I can se her falling (as lutentient), but if she can get close enough to slay him before that she can stay unfalling (possibly).

Yami
2011-04-02, 02:40 PM
Ya'll are too caught up on the Good/Evil angle.

That's obviously not important to the Order. Is what she is doing Lawful? keeping secrets from her Order? Prolly going to get her marked as a traitor. I'd say the girl would fall because she commited a choatic act, betraying a lover. Putting her vengance before the Orders commands. Whether her actions are evil or not is immaterial. Law hates Chaos more than Evil.

As for the Order, take her back in, accept her story, and then, when she sleeps... Irony, sweet sweet irony.

Now, about our big bad. Why would her killing him be the end of the campaign? does she have a plan to sever his soul completely? Why wouldn't he have a minion with strict ressurection orders. Sound to me the like kinda guy who would go around commiting near genocides to create heroes left and right would have some backup plans. Just hire a mage cast a a variety of spells. Perhaps, before setting out on his quest, he hired a mage to cast clone and sort the body safely somewhere?

Too exspensive? Contingency Teleport his corpse to an awaiting temple for ressurection. Worst case scenario? Have some minor kobold skulk geased into retreiving the corpse a couple of weeks after his death.

One minor slaying should not be the end of such an obviously long lived villain. Else how did he get where he is today?

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-02, 04:15 PM
*chuckles* A little bit, but it's more the whole concept.

Bad Ash, no derailment.

Anyhow, had any more thoughts upon The Order that we can prod untill we achieve progress?

None at the moment, though I might add that the Order has a little girl as its figurehead (similar, nay identical to Jaela in Eberron). She might be the only real way to provide an atonement for the paladin, what sort of quest would she demand?


Wait, when she commit a evil act: why would she fall?
Is she planning on lying a gross amount of times (144 is a gross in numericals)?
When she slays good then I can se her falling (as lutentient), but if she can get close enough to slay him before that she can stay unfalling (possibly).

It's going to be at least a year and a half before she would be strong enough to fight him or kill him.


Ya'll are too caught up on the Good/Evil angle.

That's obviously not important to the Order. Is what she is doing Lawful? keeping secrets from her Order? Prolly going to get her marked as a traitor. I'd say the girl would fall because she commited a choatic act, betraying a lover. Putting her vengance before the Orders commands. Whether her actions are evil or not is immaterial. Law hates Chaos more than Evil.

As for the Order, take her back in, accept her story, and then, when she sleeps... Irony, sweet sweet irony.

Now, about our big bad. Why would her killing him be the end of the campaign? does she have a plan to sever his soul completely? Why wouldn't he have a minion with strict ressurection orders. Sound to me the like kinda guy who would go around commiting near genocides to create heroes left and right would have some backup plans. Just hire a mage cast a a variety of spells. Perhaps, before setting out on his quest, he hired a mage to cast clone and sort the body safely somewhere?

Too exspensive? Contingency Teleport his corpse to an awaiting temple for ressurection. Worst case scenario? Have some minor kobold skulk geased into retreiving the corpse a couple of weeks after his death.

One minor slaying should not be the end of such an obviously long lived villain. Else how did he get where he is today?

The campaign ends when he dies because that's where it ends. Reviving him and allowing him to lead another crusade of terror and death would be story for another campaign, but all those suggestions still stand as quite good.

Toofey
2011-04-02, 11:30 PM
I... What... umm... Paladin!?

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-02, 11:30 PM
I... What... umm... Paladin!?

Indeed!!

Care to elaborate on your confusion?

Toofey
2011-04-02, 11:37 PM
I just don't get this whole non LG paladin thing. I don't like this whole LN LE paladin thing in 4th ed.

As for this question I don't understand how a paladin, or even a compulsively Lawful character could operate under such false pretenses.

Operating under false pretenses would to me be a fundamental of chaotic.

WitchSlayer
2011-04-03, 05:45 AM
I just don't get this whole non LG paladin thing. I don't like this whole LN LE paladin thing in 4th ed.

As for this question I don't understand how a paladin, or even a compulsively Lawful character could operate under such false pretenses.

Operating under false pretenses would to me be a fundamental of chaotic.

Paladins in 4e can be any alignment, not just lawful, but I digress.

Crossblade
2011-04-03, 05:51 AM
Yes, planning such non-Lawful Good things from the start; how would she even have gotten to Paladin 1, as opposed to whatever level of Paladin she is now?

And question: How do you plan on handling such a large, plot centered splitting the party? If it's a solo campaign, I can see this no problem, but multiple people? Unless they follow along, there's a good chance this will either cause:
OOC conflict
Her character will be PK'ed
Going back and forth during game time will lessen enjoyment from players not knowing her OOC character plans
Going back and forth may have other players figure out her OOC plans, and cause metagaming


or several other things...

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-03, 09:10 AM
Yes, planning such non-Lawful Good things from the start; how would she even have gotten to Paladin 1, as opposed to whatever level of Paladin she is now?

And question: How do you plan on handling such a large, plot centered splitting the party? If it's a solo campaign, I can see this no problem, but multiple people? Unless they follow along, there's a good chance this will either cause:
OOC conflict
Her character will be PK'ed
Going back and forth during game time will lessen enjoyment from players not knowing her OOC character plans
Going back and forth may have other players figure out her OOC plans, and cause metagaming


or several other things...

Well, it's a secret from everyone at the moment. It's the kind of game I run, with the secret motivations and such, and the player has just thought of this for her character. Paradoxic logic aside, I have had her fall immediately (in private) and she will continue to be a member of the party (there being periods of time where the party does not adventure, and she has a plausible excuse to leave the others*) All that to say I won't be going back and forth all the time, it's assumed to be happening behind the scenes.

*Rebuilding the elven nation with the help of the elves of the Misty Isle, an elven community spirited away by magic near the beginning of time

Fitz10019
2011-04-03, 10:36 AM
Well she's sleeping with one of them, and will become pregnant with a child she will claim is the warlord's, so I'd say not well on that guy's part.

When she eventually gives birth... may I suggest fraternal twins? The party member may have knocked her up, but a trickster god tickled another egg out for the BBEG to fertilize. They should be born with each other's umbilical cords around each other necks, as if they are already in a deathmatch.

Kish
2011-04-03, 11:11 AM
Paladins in 4e can be any alignment, not just lawful, but I digress.
And there's no such thing as Lawful Neutral in 4ed, and Lawful Evil exists only insofar as the description of Evil is pretty much the same as the 3.xed description of Lawful Evil.

Coidzor
2011-04-03, 04:11 PM
Ya'll are too caught up on the Good/Evil angle.

That's obviously not important to the Order. Is what she is doing Lawful? keeping secrets from her Order? Prolly going to get her marked as a traitor.

:smallconfused: I'd say actively betraying the order would be a bit higher up in the hierarchy of pertinent concerns there. And which lover being betrayed did you mean? :smalltongue:


Now, about our big bad. Why would her killing him be the end of the campaign?

The DM wants the curtain to fall there, obviously. :smallconfused: For now at least.


When she eventually gives birth... may I suggest fraternal twins? The party member may have knocked her up, but a trickster god tickled another egg out for the BBEG to fertilize. They should be born with each other's umbilical cords around each other necks, as if they are already in a deathmatch.

Who says the party-based father would let her live long enough to give birth? :smallwink:

Sir_Chivalry
2011-04-04, 07:45 AM
When she eventually gives birth... may I suggest fraternal twins? The party member may have knocked her up, but a trickster god tickled another egg out for the BBEG to fertilize. They should be born with each other's umbilical cords around each other necks, as if they are already in a deathmatch.

That's actually a rather evil idea, I applaud you sir. I'm totally doing that.


:smallconfused: I'd say actively betraying the order would be a bit higher up in the hierarchy of pertinent concerns there. And which lover being betrayed did you mean? :smalltongue:

I'd agree that betraying the order would be a concern.


The DM wants the curtain to fall there, obviously. :smallconfused: For now at least.

This, so very much this. There's little point to continuing the story once the story is over. Once Francis is dead, the only thing to do is rebuild and deal with fallout, both of which can be covered in simply talking at the table about it.


Who says the party-based father would let her live long enough to give birth? :smallwink:

Now that is a question. He loves her very much (I'd assume in RL too) but his order requires him to step up and put the knife to her. In fact, it might be more merciful for him to kill her rather than an assassin from the order, as that person would be just as likely to drag her back for a very long and slow "talk" with High Cardinal Krozen.:smallamused: