Alchemy: The Sacrifice

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So, there was an idea that I had a while ago, primarily inspired by the series Fullmetal Alchemist. In fact, it was sparked by a discussion that I had with a friend regarding the series: what if alchemy along those lines worked in our world? I immediately recognized the underpinnings of the World of Darkness lines, and wondered if such a thing could be done.

Problem is, I don't know a whole lot about alchemy. With that said, I figured there would be a few different things involved...

How Alchemy Works: alchemy requires one's anima force. More complex transmutations require a higher starting anima; all expended anima is always returned to its source some time after the transmutation completes. Alchemy is able to transmute substances from one form to another, but a price must be payed for each transformation. The base price for alchemy can be paid through collecting loose anima in the nearby world, through a transmutation array. Some transmutations require more energy, so a larger draining of anima, either from oneself or from surrounding life, is necessary.

Anima, in other words, is the power stat of characters (like Wyrd, Essence, or Gnosis), and is the driving world concept behind alchemists.

This is the thread which binds together all life, which gives energy and movement to mere matter. It is anima which energizes creatures, and it is anima which binds the body and soul together. Anima is everywhere, but it does not feel, does not see, does not know, because it is not alive. It is a force, a collection of forces, which has existed from the beginning. Some even believe it to be prime energy. The term “anima” was used, despite its unfortunate confusion with the idea of the soul.

The Morality stat is renamed Innocence. Level 8: tapping anima beyond a transmutation array. Level 6: tapping a sentient creature's anima. Level 5: Killing a sentient creature by tapping its anima. Level 4: tapping a person's anima. Level 1: human transmutation. (this isn't technically worldbuilding information, but it plays heavily into the theme of the setting)

Alchemical Operations: with anima as a basis for alchemy, much can be done

Elemental transmutation: one pure substance to another, even gases or liquids
Elemental mutation: changing the shape of a substance/arrangement of molecules, and spacing
Decomposition: breaking an impure inorganic substance down into elements (intermediary step)
Reconstruction: finishing step after Decomposition and Transmutation
Biological transmutation: applying elemental transmutation to organic matter, without disturbing the flow of anima; Decomposition and Reconstruction are also needed. VERY hard
Biological mutation: as elemental mutation, but on organic matter, without disturbing anima flow
Energy distribution: change placement of a source of energy; requires anima expenditure
Energy amplification: feed anima into an existing source of energy
Mortal Alchemy: the alchemies of life and death, direct manipulation of anima, forbidden to research (human transmutation falls under here)
[**]Binding Alchemy: spending anima, using it to bind together substances (Reconstruction)...more seriously, some have used it to bind a soul to a body
[**]Loosing Alchemy: releasing anima, used to gain energy, kill things


I figured that Greek, Roman, Arabic, Medieval/Catholic, Renaissance, and Modern Scientific cultures would all have their own traditions of alchemy, not unlike the Conspiracies of Hunter: the Vigil. Heck, some of the Conspiracies might even be involved with alchemists.

So, anyone got tips on this? Research to lend?

[EdroGrimshell]

although i've never actually played World of Darkness (new or old) i'm always up to see anime aspects incorporated into games i can get into. If you need any help with specific aspects of alchemy you can PM me at any time and i'll get back to you ASAP.

[Pokonic]

Two questions. How would alchemests deal with mages, and vice versia? Allso, would there be any of the traditanal creatuers associated with alchemy? (Ex gnomes,salmanders,ex)

[EdroGrimshell]

Two questions. How would alchemests deal with mages, and vice versia? Allso, would there be any of the traditanal creatuers associated with alchemy? (Ex gnomes,salmanders,ex)

Wrong kind of alchemy.

[druid91]

Two questions. How would alchemests deal with mages, and vice versia? Allso, would there be any of the traditanal creatuers associated with alchemy? (Ex gnomes,salmanders,ex)

I don't know much about WoD, But As for creatures, there is always Chimeras and Homunculi.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Two questions. How would alchemests deal with mages, and vice versia? Allso, would there be any of the traditanal creatuers associated with alchemy? (Ex gnomes,salmanders,ex)
Very interesting question, and I hadn't actually hatched an answer for it as of yet. It's entirely possible that either the mages tolerate alchemists as a sort of "pretender caste", or also that the alchemists' use of anima taps into a power that acts in an entirely different vein than the mages' perception of reality, a power that might even challenge or threaten mages if it got big enough. Heck, maybe they're big enough to be a challenge group to the mages...or else some mages are trying to hunt them down, because they pose a threat due to this incomprehensible power.

I think that imagery of some creatures like salamanders would likely pop up, I didn't know that gnomes were associated with alchemy. Some disciplines would definitely use that imagery and those motifs, though.

And I know the FMA alchemy pretty decently, but I'm also trying to get a handle on real-world alchemic history. World of Darkness likes to use actual myths and legends, and incorporate them into the "hidden history" of the world. A sort of "these legends about alchemy have been accurate, sort of".

[Knaight]

Mechanically, take a look at Nemesis. It seems a good engine for this.

Regarding alchemy, I've been working on something similar (a setting where attempts to utilize much more limited alchemy have been changing the structure, with conflicts due to government struggle for control over the organizations they have to create as well as governments having at each other, blah blah blah) and you can PM me if you ever have questions, or need something setting specific analyzed.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

NEMESIS...there's a thought. I hadn't studied it in depth, but I'm familiar with the ORE from A Dirty World. Regardless, that's more mechanics than anything.

I'll let you know about that, should I get to some more in-depth analyzing. The mythology of alchemy is where I'd love the most input.

[Pokonic]

I can help you with the creatures. Creatures asociated with alchemy are called elementals, because they are embodyments of the four elements that make up the world.The four are
The sylph is associated with air and is vain.
The gnome is the earth elemental and is regarded as the most aprochable of the four.
Salimanders are reptilien fire elementals.
And undines are humanlike embodyments of water.

[Knaight]

NEMESIS...there's a thought. I hadn't studied it in depth, but I'm familiar with the ORE from A Dirty World. Regardless, that's more mechanics than anything.

I'll let you know about that, should I get to some more in-depth analyzing. The mythology of alchemy is where I'd love the most input.

Nemesis seems better for this than A Dirty World, largely because of its madness meters.

As far as alchemy goes, one source of mythology behind it is simple exaggeration of ability. Even if it is highly scientific it won't be understood by everyone, and you get the Hollywood chemistry effect. As such, you can get speculation as seen below:
{table] What Happened|What people now know
Someone started a grease fire| Alchemists create a living flame that eats water.
Someone managed to make pepper spray| Alchemists have poison gas that hunts down their enemies and suffocates them.
Ionized stream of air (a la Chernobyl)| Alchemists are so powerful that they can shoot god back if he tries to smite them.
An alchemist found a fire resistant fabric| Alchemists speak with the spirits of fire and hold them at bay.

[/table]

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I can help you with the creatures. Creatures asociated with alchemy are called elementals, because they are embodyments of the four elements that make up the world.The four are
The sylph is associated with air and is vain.
The gnome is the earth elemental and is regarded as the most aprochable of the four.
Salimanders are reptilien fire elementals.
And undines are humanlike embodyments of water.
That sounds cool. I'm even envisioning an alchemic society which uses these creatures as "totems" for its initiates. That would be a society heavily steeped in mythology and symbols.

Alchemic symbolism: that's definitely something I'm lacking in knowledge of.


As far as alchemy goes, one source of mythology behind it is simple exaggeration of ability. Even if it is highly scientific it won't be understood by everyone, and you get the Hollywood chemistry effect. As such, you can get speculation as seen below:
{table] What Happened|What people now know
Someone started a grease fire| Alchemists create a living flame that eats water.
Someone managed to make pepper spray| Alchemists have poison gas that hunts down their enemies and suffocates them.
Ionized stream of air (a la Chernobyl)| Alchemists are so powerful that they can shoot god back if he tries to smite them.
An alchemist found a fire resistant fabric| Alchemists speak with the spirits of fire and hold them at bay.

[/table]
Ah, interesting dualities there. I'm seeing something akin to Nulla Mysterius vs., say, Aegis Kai Doru?

[Eldan]

On the symbolism part:

It's important to understand that medieval alchemy wasn't just about metals and chemicals. Much of what was described was also a metaphor for divine energy and the soul. So creating gold, alchemic mercury etc. was just as much a metaphor for purifying one's soul.

See, as an example, the four stages of transmutation, Nigredo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigredo) (Blackness), Albedo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo_(alchemy)) (Whiteness), Citrinitas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citrinitas) (Yellowness) and Rubedo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubedo) (Redness).
These can either be seen as chemical processes (burning, washing, transmutation to gold and finally the creation of the philosopher's stone) or spiritual concepts (Death, Purification of the Soul, Awakening, Enlightenment).

[The Watchman]

How Alchemy Works: alchemy requires one's anima force. More complex transmutations require a higher starting anima; all expended anima is always returned to its source some time after the transmutation completes. Alchemy is able to transmute substances from one form to another, but a price must be payed for each transformation. The base price for alchemy can be paid through collecting loose anima in the nearby world, through a transmutation array. Some transmutations require more energy, so a larger draining of anima, either from oneself or from surrounding life, is necessary.

Anima, in other words, is the power stat of characters (like Wyrd, Essence, or Gnosis), and is the driving world concept behind alchemists.

This needs to be altered slightly.

Wyrd, Gnosis, Psyche, and the like are never actually spent. They don't go up and down (at least, not often). They're each tied to another attribute, one which acts as a kind of pool, and that gets spent.

Like in Changeling: The Lost. A changeling's Wyrd rating is a measure of how mystically-empowered they are, but they never actually spend Wyrd to activate their abilities. They spend Glamour instead.

So if Anima functions like Wyrd, then it needs an associated "pool" stat. If it functions like Glamour, it needs an associated power stat.


The Morality stat is renamed Innocence. Level 8: tapping anima beyond a transmutation array. Level 6: tapping a sentient creature's anima. Level 5: Killing a sentient creature by tapping its anima. Level 4: tapping a person's anima. Level 1: human transmutation. (this isn't technically worldbuilding information, but it plays heavily into the theme of the setting)

Six and four seem slightly redundant, unless you plan to have lots of non-human sentient creatures around. This doesn't appear to have a built-in "monster" species, like the True Fae and hobgoblins from Changeling, so I would ditch one of the two. In addition, 5 seems like it's in the wrong place; if merely tapping a person's Anima is a worse sin than killing someone by doing so, there had better be some brilliantly-thought-out in-game reason for it. Otherwise it's just weird.

How are you planning to handle the different alchemical abilities? Presumably you aren't just going to give every character with a knowledge of alchemy access to all of the powers, unless you want every alchemist to be God on steroids.

Are they going to work like Changeling's Contracts? Geist's Manifestations? Something else entirely?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

On the symbolism part:

It's important to understand that medieval alchemy wasn't just about metals and chemicals. Much of what was described was also a metaphor for divine energy and the soul. So creating gold, alchemic mercury etc. was just as much a metaphor for purifying one's soul.

See, as an example, the four stages of transmutation, Nigredo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigredo) (Blackness), Albedo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo_(alchemy)) (Whiteness), Citrinitas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citrinitas) (Yellowness) and Rubedo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubedo) (Redness).
These can either be seen as chemical processes (burning, washing, transmutation to gold and finally the creation of the philosopher's stone) or spiritual concepts (Death, Purification of the Soul, Awakening, Enlightenment).
Cool, thanks! This could actually probably be a really good central path for the system itself. I like the four stages. Purifying the soul also matches pretty well with the themes I want to touch on, the idea of balancing a loss of innocence against the purification of experience.

This needs to be altered slightly.

Wyrd, Gnosis, Psyche, and the like are never actually spent. They don't go up and down (at least, not often). They're each tied to another attribute, one which acts as a kind of pool, and that gets spent.

Like in Changeling: The Lost. A changeling's Wyrd rating is a measure of how mystically-empowered they are, but they never actually spend Wyrd to activate their abilities. They spend Glamour instead.

So if Anima functions like Wyrd, then it needs an associated "pool" stat. If it functions like Glamour, it needs an associated power stat.
Good catch. That's something I'll be wanting to flesh out more. Anima will probably be the pool stat. The power stat, then, is simply some sort of innate understanding in an alchemist that allows them to bind and work with anima.

Six and four seem slightly redundant, unless you plan to have lots of non-human sentient creatures around. This doesn't appear to have a built-in "monster" species, like the True Fae and hobgoblins from Changeling, so I would ditch one of the two. In addition, 5 seems like it's in the wrong place; if merely tapping a person's Anima is a worse sin than killing someone by doing so, there had better be some brilliantly-thought-out in-game reason for it. Otherwise it's just weird.
By sentient, I was thinking of animals and the like...so, tapping a cow's life force is not incredibly bad, though tapping that animal's life force and killing it in such a manner goes a bit farther down the line. After those comes direct draining of a person's anima. I believe that this was the logic behind it.

Sentient doesn't mean intelligent, just capable of perception and feeling. I'll probably define that bit better.

How are you planning to handle the different alchemical abilities? Presumably you aren't just going to give every character with a knowledge of alchemy access to all of the powers, unless you want every alchemist to be God on steroids.

Are they going to work like Changeling's Contracts? Geist's Manifestations? Something else entirely?
Contracts was one idea of a model I had. Essentially, not unlike the Mantles, you have Traditions of alchemy, different schools of thought on that. Study in specific traditions grants you access to Techniques of alchemy, which provide specific abilities. I could also likewise see remaking Seemings into focuses of alchemy, such as Flame Alchemy or Destruction Alchemy, or something like that, providing their own focuses of raw ability.

Traditions would likely work with the alchemic focuses, providing perhaps elements of them in combined form.

[The Watchman]

By sentient, I was thinking of animals and the like...so, tapping a cow's life force is not incredibly bad, though tapping that animal's life force and killing it in such a manner goes a bit farther down the line. After those comes direct draining of a person's anima. I believe that this was the logic behind it.

Sentient doesn't mean intelligent, just capable of perception and feeling. I'll probably define that bit better.

Hey! Someone else who knows the difference between "sentient" and "sapient"! Awesome!

Anyway, I would still argue that it doesn't make much sense to say that killing a sentient being by draining their anima isn't as bad as merely tapping another human's. Humans are sentient, too, after all, so you're essentially saying that killing a human via Anima drain is worse than merely draining a little.


Contracts was one idea of a model I had. Essentially, not unlike the Mantles, you have Traditions of alchemy, different schools of thought on that. Study in specific traditions grants you access to Techniques of alchemy, which provide specific abilities. I could also likewise see remaking Seemings into focuses of alchemy, such as Flame Alchemy or Destruction Alchemy, or something like that, providing their own focuses of raw ability.

Traditions would likely work with the alchemic focuses, providing perhaps elements of them in combined form.

This is actually pretty much what I was thinking.

Rather than Court Mantles, alchemists would take Expertise in Nigredo, Albedo, Citrinitas, or Rubedo. This would allow them access to Expertise-specific Transmutations, like the Court Contracts in Changeling. There would also be universal Transmutations, accessible to everyone.

Nigredo, with its theme of destruction and decay, would form the basis of most attack spells, and the "destruction" alchemy (like Scar's hand in FMA). While it can break things down, it can't alter their shapes or anything like that.

Albedo is the opposite; it specializes in reconstruction. It takes pieces and fuses them into a whole, but cannot alter what they were. An albedo alchemist could take two hunks of wood and fuse them together to make a sword, but couldn't make the sword steel.

Citrinitas would be capable of altering the composition of objects, turning said wooden sword into steel, or lead into gold. It also has a limited ability to alter the shape and structural integrity of an object by changing certain areas, but not others.

Rubedo would focus on biological alchemy - transmutations which directly affect living things. Curing (or inflicting) poison, for example, or healing wounds.

Of course, this is a rough outline, and you don't have to stick with it if you don't want to. Just my thoughts.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hey! Someone else who knows the difference between "sentient" and "sapient"! Awesome!

Anyway, I would still argue that it doesn't make much sense to say that killing a sentient being by draining their anima isn't as bad as merely tapping another human's. Humans are sentient, too, after all, so you're essentially saying that killing a human via Anima drain is worse than merely draining a little.
I think that when I wrote it, that an analogy to personal harm was on the mind. In this scheme, it's somewhat akin to saying that hurting a mere animal is not quite as "damaging" as killing that animal, but that killing the animal doesn't produce the same effects as intentional harm to a human. I agree that it's a bit fuzzy, though.

This is actually pretty much what I was thinking.

Rather than Court Mantles, alchemists would take Expertise in Nigredo, Albedo, Citrinitas, or Rubedo. This would allow them access to Expertise-specific Transmutations, like the Court Contracts in Changeling. There would also be universal Transmutations, accessible to everyone.

Nigredo, with its theme of destruction and decay, would form the basis of most attack spells, and the "destruction" alchemy (like Scar's hand in FMA). While it can break things down, it can't alter their shapes or anything like that.

Albedo is the opposite; it specializes in reconstruction. It takes pieces and fuses them into a whole, but cannot alter what they were. An albedo alchemist could take two hunks of wood and fuse them together to make a sword, but couldn't make the sword steel.

Citrinitas would be capable of altering the composition of objects, turning said wooden sword into steel, or lead into gold. It also has a limited ability to alter the shape and structural integrity of an object by changing certain areas, but not others.

Rubedo would focus on biological alchemy - transmutations which directly affect living things. Curing (or inflicting) poison, for example, or healing wounds.

Of course, this is a rough outline, and you don't have to stick with it if you don't want to. Just my thoughts.
That's cool. I like the idea of working through the four stages of alchemy. I'll research through them, but they probably provide a good framework.

[Eldan]

It's important to note, however, that as defined in classical alchemy, these four form a progression. You can't get to Rubedo without attaining the other three first.

[The Watchman]

It's important to note, however, that as defined in classical alchemy, these four form a progression. You can't get to Rubedo without attaining the other three first.

Yes, but you can take some creative liberties. Not all the legends about vampires show up in Vampire. In flavor terms, there's as much misinformation about any given paranormal field as there is truth. Probably more.

Failing that, simply make Rubedo the most difficult to learn.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yes, but you can take some creative liberties. Not all the legends about vampires show up in Vampire. In flavor terms, there's as much misinformation about any given paranormal field as there is truth. Probably more.

Failing that, simply make Rubedo the most difficult to learn.
Hmm...what if those marked four levels of, say, an alchemic specialization? So that you learned the Negredo, Albedo, Citrinitas, and then Rubedo levels of a particular style or tradition of Alchemy. Each one adding a new layer to it.

[The Watchman]

Hmm...what if those marked four levels of, say, an alchemic specialization? So that you learned the Negredo, Albedo, Citrinitas, and then Rubedo levels of a particular style or tradition of Alchemy. Each one adding a new layer to it.

Could work. Like the "clauses" of the different Contracts in Changeling. This leaves you without a fifth level for your Transmutations, though, unless you want to simply make something up off the top of your head.

[EdroGrimshell]

Could work. Like the "clauses" of the different Contracts in Changeling. This leaves you without a fifth level for your Transmutations, though, unless you want to simply make something up off the top of your head.

Unequivalent exchange? Like Father from FMA: Brotherhood

[Eldan]

Well, Rubedo would already, in theory, give you godhood, omniscience, enlightenment and immortality. Do you need a fifth stage? :smalltongue:

But yeah. Creative liberties are the way to go.

As for other schools of alchemy... Mesopotamian, Greek, Arabian and European medieval to baroque alchemy all seem rather closely linked. The only other alchemical tradition I can think of is Chinese, and I don't know much about it, really. Probably has something to do with the Five Steps.

[The Watchman]

The only other alchemical tradition I can think of is Chinese, and I don't know much about it, really. Probably has something to do with the Five Steps.

Five Steps?

I can't find any reference to these (my Google-fu is weak), but depending on what they are, they might work as the five "clauses" for any given alchemical power.

[The Rose Dragon]

Five Steps?

I can't find any reference to these (my Google-fu is weak), but depending on what they are, they might work as the five "clauses" for any given alchemical power.

Wu Xing is a Chinese mnemomic based on the interactions of five phases: Tree, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water.

[The Watchman]

Wu Xing is a Chinese mnemomic based on the interactions of five phases: Tree, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water.

Ah. Never mind, then. Probably wouldn't work.

[Eldan]

The Wu Xing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_%28Chinese_philosophy%29). Five elements, or stages, or steps, whatever you want to call them. Fire, Earth, Metal, Water and Wood. They aren't really that, though. More five states something can be in. I can't really explain it, but air (as in, the thing around us) could just as well be in a fire state. Or metal (the thing you touch) could be in a water state. And so on. It's a bit complicated.
But it shows up nearly everywhere I've looked, in China. Astronomy, Martial Arts, Medicine, Feng Shui... I'd guess it would be in Alchemy as well.

If you read the sections on Medicine and Feng Shui, it should give you a basic idea.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That's really interesting...so there would actually be a legit reason to split up the alchemies into East and West, because the Eastern "Xingian" alchemy is literally so different. I must look into this...

[Tiniere]

You may also want to strongly consider that if you're basing it off the style of Alchemy in Amestris in FMA, there are still two schools of practice. The school of the four stages or four elements which hold closer to the idea of elementals and entities embodying form or shape. But there are also the three principles which are means of describing how things change. How one would integrate this mechanically I can't really be sure off but I figured I'd mention them so that they could be considered:

Salt: Contractive force, describes crystallisation, condensation, loss of entropy

Sulfur: expansive force, describes evaporation, sublimation, dissolution, gain of entropy

Mercury: Integrative force, describes balances such as states of equilibrium, circulation and closed systems

I hope this can serve as some extra information or maybe inspiration to be blended with the elements.

[Eldan]

Well, the Salt/Sulfur/Mercury classification also comes from European alchemy. It's not a new idea. I think some later alchemist expanded that to Salt, Sulfur, Mercury and Gold to once again represent the four elements.

Salt: Air
Sulfur: Fire
Mercury: Water
Gold: Earth

[Fortuna]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Promethean yet. Their powers rely on alchemy, so even if you want to remove them from your world you can look at them for ideas.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'll need to look at Promethean again...but from what I recall hearing, the use of "alchemy" for their powers didn't really delve much into alchemic lore.

Other question: I know that Albertus Magnus was one prominent real-life alchemist, and that Van Hohenheim was also a real-world figure, as well as Flamel. Anyone else I should probably include?

[Eldan]

Isaac Newton was, of course, famous. But not really for his Alchemy.

[Knaight]

Isaac Newton was, of course, famous. But not really for his Alchemy.

Nonetheless, he did spend a great deal of time on it.

[Eldan]

Sure. But the question is if you want "Famous Alchemists" or "Famous People Who Did Alchemy".

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Could probably be either, actually, seeing as the WoD trend is to take real-world references and wind them into the mythology.