Best Cleric PrC's?

[TechnOkami]

I'm making a cleric PrC myself right now, and want to see the best of the best, wether it be about optimized builds or just the PrC itself, I want to see what makes them so successful and popular.

Thank you Playgrounders.

[Urpriest]

Ruby Knight VinWINdicator and Ordained Champion are well-loved for melee, as is Bone Knight. Dweomerkeeper is on the same tier as Planar Shepherd in potential brokenness.

[TechnOkami]

Ruby Knight VinWINdictator and Ordained Champion are well-loved for melee, as is Bone Knight. Dweomerkeeper is on the same tier as Planar Shepherd in potential brokenness.

Thanks, um, where are they book-wise?

[Urpriest]

Thanks, um, where are they book-wise?

Tome of Battle, Complete Champion, Faiths of Eberron, and the Complete Divine Web Enhancement, respectively.

[Alleran]

Dweomerkeeper is in Complete Divine (the web enhancement), Bone Knight is IIRC in Faiths of Eberron (or one of the Eberron books), Planar Shepherd is in Faiths of Eberron, and the Ruby Knight Vindicator is in the Book of Nine Swords. I don't know about the Ordained Champion.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Elric VIII]

I'm not sure if Bone Knight is in Faiths of Eberron, too, but I know it is in Five Nations.

[Urpriest]

I'm not sure if Bone Knight is in Faiths of Eberron, too, but I know it is in Five Nations.

Ah yes that's right. Ignore the previous Faiths of Eberron mention. They're associated with the nation of Karrnath, so they're in Five Nations.

[Optimator]

Contemplative is pretty good. Divine Oracle is fun as well. Radiant Servant is popular, but not exactly "the best".

[TroubleBrewing]

I personally enjoy Sacred Exorcist and Church Inquisitor.

[herrhauptmann]

Ur-priest is powerful. Particularly if you go wizard9/urpriest 1/mystic theurge 10.

Radiant servant of Favorite sun god is THE PrC for an undead campaign. Often stacked with contemplative and sacred exorcist. Also, bonus domains.

[Urpriest]

Speaking of Domains, Sovereign Speaker (which actually is from Faiths of Eberron) gets nine over nine levels or something like that, making it pretty cool.

[sreservoir]

Speaking of Domains, Sovereign Speaker (which actually is from Faiths of Eberron) gets nine over nine levels or something like that, making it pretty cool.

7/9 spellcasting, though, which is bearable, but suboptimal. taking just the first five levels isn't too bad of an idea either, if you're set on losing caster levels.

[Leon]

I like Sacred Fist , Bone Knight, Ordained Champion*,




*Ordained Champion is in Complete Champion

[Coidzor]

PrC Paladin is nice for a basically no-cost, only benefit dip. Well, it costs a feat... :/

Church Inquisitor isn't one of the best for what it gives you(gives you nice stuff though), but it is one of the easiest to enter early on in one's career, so that counts for something.

Contemplative is one of the best dips due to any domain being offered for free.

Divine Oracle is a good two level or a bit more but not much more than that for what is effectively evasion in any armor.

herrhauptmann: One problem, Ur-Priest is decidedly not a cleric PrC.

[Dr.Epic]

Stormlord. You can fly and I love the Special requirement.:smallbiggrin:

[herrhauptmann]

PrC Paladin is nice for a basically no-cost, only benefit dip. Well, it costs a feat... :/

Church Inquisitor isn't one of the best for what it gives you(gives you nice stuff though), but it is one of the easiest to enter early on in one's career, so that counts for something.

Contemplative is one of the best dips due to any domain being offered for free.

Divine Oracle is a good two level or a bit more but not much more than that for what is effectively evasion in any armor.

herrhauptmann: One problem, Ur-Priest is decidedly not a cleric PrC.

It gives cleric casting, doesn't it? :smallbiggrin:
Besides, the adaptation does say you can refluff it for priests of Dead Gods, not just someone who hates the gods so much he steals their power. And I believe Lost Empires of Faerun even gives a small list of dead/ancient gods which can be accessed via Ur-priest.

[Felyndiira]

It gives cleric casting, doesn't it? :smallbiggrin:
Besides, the adaptation does say you can refluff it for priests of Dead Gods, not just someone who hates the gods so much he steals their power. And I believe Lost Empires of Faerun even gives a small list of dead/ancient gods which can be accessed via Ur-priest.

Ur-Priest is great for getting cleric casting on classes that doesn't have it already. For clerics, though (who has all levels of cleric casting by just taking full casting PrCs), it means that you lose Caster Levels on your spells, lose domain progression, lose spontaneous conversions of spells for your Ur-Priest levels, and offers no benefits other than more 1-5 level slots. Plus, you don't really get meaningful class abilities with the class.

It's a good PrC if you're a cleric of a dead god that can't go and follow another deity to regain your cleric-ness. For an actual cleric, though, it really doesn't offer anything good for its trade-offs.

[herrhauptmann]

Well, since the OP is only making a character now, it was fully valid advice. But yes, the Urpriest is not the standard cleric character.
Better than if he started with "My cleric character just got finished playing through a dungeon, we're now level 4, how can I make him better."

[Telonius]

Within Core, Loremaster is probably the best. Most people think of it as a Wizard PrC, but the requirements don't exclude Clerics. It costs four feats, but three of them are Metamagic or Item Creation (which you might have taken in any case), and you get one of them back from Applicable Knowledge.

Radiant Servant is generally given as a possibility because the entrance is so ridiculously easy. If you worship Pelor, the only reason you wouldn't want to take it is if you have some other, better PrC in mind. On the other hand, the Completes series are typically allowed by DMs without too much hassle. Those other PrC's tend to be from sources that are more often banned (ToB, Eberron stuff, and the known overpowered-ness that is Dweomerkeeper) for various reasons.

[Lhurgyof]

Walker in the Waste?

[Keld Denar]

Divine Oracle is a good two level or a bit more but not much more than that for what is effectively evasion in any armor.

Divine Oracle10 gives what amounts to be Persistant Foresight at level 15. Thats...pretty dang good, if you ask me...

[Felyndiira]

One of my favorite PrCs for cleric is Sentinel of Bharrai. Unlike the BoVD prestige classes (which are terrible for casters and often extremely stupid), BoED has some really nicely fluffed AND actually good classes, and Sentinel of Bharrai fits very neatly into most parties with their respect for nature and their generally friendly attitude. Full casting, workable entry (two exalted feats + cloistered cleric/knowledge devotion/domain for knowledge (nature)); they have really good fluff and excellent class features without being seven ways to ridiculous like the dweomerkeeper.

[Firechanter]

I like the Radiant Servant (CD).

[Goonthegoof]

They're all lying to try to get you to not take dweomerkeeper.
Don't fall for it, dweomerkeeper is the best thing ever.

[Alleran]

They're all lying to try to get you to not take dweomerkeeper.
Don't fall for it, dweomerkeeper is the best thing ever.
It's not as good as (if you can) mashing together Dweomerkeeper and Rainbow Servant, though. Ten levels of RS, four of Dweomerkeeper (to give you Supernatural Spell). Add more levels in Dweomerkeeper if you feel the need, though you've probably already got pretty much every spell you'll ever need forever.

[Goonthegoof]

Why would you want rainbow servant as a cleric?

[Tokuhara]

I say Walker of the Wastes, since it basically GIVES you a good template (correction: GREAT), Radiant Servant (my preference is Re) for Greater Turning cheese, and the under-appreciated Knight of the Raven are my favorites. I especially adore Cloistered Cleric w/ Dynamic Priest 6/Prestige Paladin 2/Knight of the Raven 10/Contemplative 2 and the ever-popular Cloistered Cleric w/ Dynamic Priest 6/Walker in the Waste 10/Conemplative 1/Divine Oracle 2/Dracolyte 1

[Optimator]

One of my favorite PrCs for cleric is Sentinel of Bharrai. Unlike the BoVD prestige classes (which are terrible for casters and often extremely stupid), BoED has some really nicely fluffed AND actually good classes, and Sentinel of Bharrai fits very neatly into most parties with their respect for nature and their generally friendly attitude. Full casting, workable entry (two exalted feats + cloistered cleric/knowledge devotion/domain for knowledge (nature)); they have really good fluff and excellent class features without being seven ways to ridiculous like the dweomerkeeper.

Yeah, the BoED has surprisingly good PrCs.

[Thurbane]

Fairly obscure source, but Knight of The Raven is pretty nice - very easy reqs, 9/10 casting, full BAB, Sun Domain, raven companion and various goodies when fighting undead. It can be found in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft adventure...

[TechnOkami]

Well, with all the ridiculous buffs given from the Bone Knight, i've got an idea for my own Cleric PrC's capstone. :xykon:

[Alleran]

Why would you want rainbow servant as a cleric?
In my defense, I was very tired when I made that post, and my brain wasn't working properly. :smallannoyed:

[Kaeso]

Why does everybody here love ordained champion so much? It gives some nice benefits but it still loses 2 caster levels!

[Leon]

Why does everybody here love ordained champion so much? It gives some nice benefits but it still loses 2 caster levels!

Because lost Caster levels are not the end of a Character and it has some very nice abilities and flavor (although i like to re-flavor it to other gods not so much for the 2 that it is intended for - Fits very well into IK for a Menite Character)

[Kaeso]

Because lost Caster levels are not the end of a Character and it has some very nice abilities and flavor (although i like to re-flavor it to other gods not so much for the 2 that it is intended for - Fits very well into IK for a Menite Character)

But isn't one of the optimization commandments 'thou shalt not lose caster levels'? I think two caster levels are way more useful than whatever the ordained champion has to offer.
EDIT: You actually lose the ability to convert your spells to cure spells when taking the first level! That's one of the most useful things a cleric has, and this PrC robs you of this valuable asset.

[Coidzor]

But isn't one of the optimization commandments 'thou shalt not lose caster levels'? I think two caster levels are way more useful than whatever the ordained champion has to offer.
EDIT: You actually lose the ability to convert your spells to cure spells when taking the first level! That's one of the most useful things a cleric has, and this PrC robs you of this valuable asset.

Well, if you're healing with that kind of mentality it's generally not going to be in combat and it's going to be with a wand most likely.

[Leon]

But isn't one of the optimization commandments 'thou shalt not lose caster levels'?


Doesn't apply to me or to anything i suggest - indeed i rally against the over saturation of optimization that occurs here.

The ability to drop spells into Cure spells is a neat ability but not even close to the most useful thing they can do - heck it only works for 1.5 members of the clerical brethren (good and the Fence sitters who leaned toward good).

Most healing is best done out of combat with the In combat in two ways - from stopping party members from dieing and the use of Heal to bring someone fully or almost fully back and remove various status conditions.

Its better to lay the Buffs onto a group to reduce the amount of damage a group may take and to increase its Combat potential - that is the major strength of a Cleric.

[Coidzor]

He was asking the question based upon its recommendation against the same optimization context you rail against even as you discuss optimized healing strategy.

The first conclusion from there is that the abilities must be considered worth it or very close to worth it for making a more combat-oriented character on the cleric chassis without having to dedicate quite so many spell-resources to the job or DMMing it up, which just isn't considered all that sporting outside of games where everyone is setting out to play at that power level.

What the abilities are or why they're worth it, I couldn't speculate upon without thinking about it more than casually and re-reading the class... mostly the re-reading the class bit. Fairly easy to speculate on why it would violate that one commandment about lost caster levels though, since Clerics and Wizards can afford to lose 3, though they shouldn't lose them lightly, which is the more general interpretation of that rule that I've run into around here at least.

[Zaq]

Dweomerkeeper has the scariest options overall, I think. I forget what the standard trick for getting both arcane and divine spells without losing a caster level is, though.

[Curmudgeon]

The best PrCs would depend on what you're trying to accomplish. If you're trying to make a Cleric who can enter Arcane Archer, for instance, Seeker of the Misty Isle could be good for you.

Sample build here:
I made this build to address a feat issue for an archer, picking up useful feats from a variety of sources. Note the cheesy option is listed for completeness; I don't actually recommend that approach.


Here's a way to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody.

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 6 for Dead Eye, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 1 (Complete Divine, page 61). Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.

There are a bunch of good Cleric area spells that work well with the Arcane Archer Imbue Arrow ability, such as Bane, Circle of Nausea, Anarchic Storm/Axiomatic Storm/Holy Storm/Unholy Storm, and Wave of Grief. Getting to where you can combine those is the hard part.

[Thurbane]

But isn't one of the optimization commandments 'thou shalt not lose caster levels'?
Here's my thoughts on that topic from a recent post:

I'm going to go against the grain here...if losing caster levels helps better realize a character concept, then I say go for it.

This holy taboo of never losing caster levels is only really applicable in fairly high-op games. In regular-op or low-op, a caster can afford to lose quite a few levels before he drops in usefulness below a non-caster.

We constantly see threads about how uber full casters are...surely losing some caster levels will only hurt them in relation to other full casters?

[Leon]

He was asking the question based upon its recommendation against the same optimization context you rail against even as you discuss optimized healing strategy.

Its not optimized - its sensible resource management.
There is a difference. Spellslots are a limited resource and using them willy nilly in combat for healing that may be removed in the next hit is a waste.

If you do still want/need to heal in combat its better to use a item rather than your spell slots. A couple of assorted wands with Curative spells and maybe even some Eternal Wands if you can get them.



As to Why i suggest the 3 PrC that i did.

Sacred Fist - Lovely combination of Monk Combat Ability with Cleric Usefulness in one neat package.

Bone Knight - Has some great flavor and abilities that tie in with it. Particularly if you have a Necromancer type in the group as well.

Ordained Champion - makes a great Menite PrC with a lil tweaking and has plenty of goodies packed in a nice small package.

[olentu]

Its not optimized - its sensible resource management.
There is a difference. Spellslots are a limited resource and using them willy nilly in combat for healing that may be removed in the next hit is a waste.

If you do still want/need to heal in combat its better to use a item rather than your spell slots. A couple of assorted wands with Curative spells and maybe even some Eternal Wands if you can get them.


While it may not be optimized in that there is possibly a better way to deal with healing that exists for the parameters of the discussion it is is I would say certainly in the same vein as what can be considered optimization. I.e. to make the best or most effective use of (a situation or resource). Though I will admit it is acting on a slightly different resource (character resources vs. character building resources) but I will also say that it might also be unclear that you are so specifically hostile towards some optimization.

[Grendus]

Malconvoker has it's uses. Most notably, if you can get the Summoning domain and take the Spontaneous Domains ACF, you can dedicate all your spell slots to the utility spells you need and dynamically swap them in for summon spells, which is nice. 9/10 progression, which is a fair trade for the free Extend Spell, Twin Spell, and the demonic frenzy (plus the ability to summon the much more powerful evil subtype creatures without having to be an evil/neutral cleric).

Arguably, Wizards make better Malconvokers due to their Rapid Summoning ACF (they can also get Augment Summoning as an ACF, which lets them save their feats), but Clerics can hold their own.

Malconvoker is in Complete Scoundrel.

[Coidzor]

Its not optimized - its sensible resource management.

Optimized resource management, sensible resource management. You may say tomayto, but those same optimizers you seem to object to being so numerous about the place have been saying it tomahto for quite the while.

[Tvtyrant]

I like Radiant Servant of Pelor myself; it grants you lots of healing boosts and anti-undead boosts for free. Also, it grants you an extra domain which is always useful.

[herrhauptmann]

If you're going RSoP for the turning, check out the undead items here. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x
Specifically the ring of desecrate. Guess what, a ring of consecrate should be the exact same price.