What is the strongest character build?

[Sims]

Is there an absolute best route to take in terms of character class?

First: Just one class at a time sort of build.
Second: Strongest Gestalt Route you think
Third: Strongest "Triple" Gestalt Route you think there is. (Then again, in Triple Gestalt, no matter what you are, you're pretty much unbeatable.)

Go easy on the monster classes though.

[NNescio]

Is there an absolute best route to take in terms of character class?

First: Just one class at a time sort of build.
Second: Strongest Gestalt Route you think
Third: Strongest "Triple" Gestalt Route you think there is. (Then again, in Triple Gestalt, no matter what you are, you're pretty much unbeatable.)

Go easy on the monster classes though.

First: Spell to Power Erudite.

[Worira]

Kobold Psion (Egoist) 7.


And don't give me any Paladin 1 guff, that's just silly.

[Lateral]

If you don't include the Pazuzu trick, it could be done with Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3.

@V: You already said that.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, Artificer 4 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer&post_num=4) is more powerful than StP Erudite, and if Pazuzu is off the table, more powerful than any Pun-Puns.

[Worira]

Technically, it's not that he's more powerful, it's that he obtains his power faster and would thus be able to prevent the formation of Pun-Pun, assuming a level playing field with regards to starting time.

[Lateral]

Especially since Pun-Pun can do the same thing as the Omniscificer, although one level later, plus a millon other things. While Omniscificer is slightly faster, Pun-Pun can retroactively murder the Omni before he attains power. The Omni can't do the same. :smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

This "triple gestalt" thing you keep bringing up is ridiculous. There's no appreciable power difference between three classes smashed together and two classes that synergize well.

[Flickerdart]

Especially since Pun-Pun can do the same thing as the Omniscificer, although one level later, plus a millon other things. While Omniscificer is slightly faster, Pun-Pun can retroactively murder the Omni before he attains power. The Omni can't do the same. :smalltongue:
Except that the Omniscificer stops Pun-Pun before Pun-Pun becomes Pun-Pun, so that Pun-Pun can't travel back in time due to being dead. Confused yet? :smalltongue:

[Lateral]

You should be. :smalltongue:

[Urpriest]

Actually, Artificer 4 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer&post_num=4) is more powerful than StP Erudite, and if Pazuzu is off the table, more powerful than any Pun-Puns.

Isn't Pun-Pun possible at 1st without Pazuzu, though, with Precocious Apprentice: Summon Mephit?

[The Rabbler]

This "triple gestalt" thing you keep bringing up is ridiculous. There's no appreciable power difference between three classes smashed together and two classes that synergize well.

Sure there is. you can always add factotum to a build.

[Keld Denar]

Mirror Mephit, yes.

[Lateral]

Yeah, if you do it fast. The Mirror Mephit does control the Simulacrum, so you'd better finish before the spell ends.

[molten_dragon]

Especially since Pun-Pun can do the same thing as the Omniscificer, although one level later, plus a millon other things.

Well, actually, the Omni is better at its schtick than pun-pun is. The Omni actually has infinite bonuses to his knowledge checks. Pun-pun's bonus is indefinitely large, but finite. Pun-Pun does pretty much everything else better though.

[dextercorvia]

Isn't Pun-Pun possible at 1st without Pazuzu, though, with Precocious Apprentice: Summon Mephit?

But either way it takes actions.

The most powerful 1st level character at creation is an Elven Domain Generalist with Versatile Spellcaster. Some folks frown on combining that variant with the racial substitution level though.

[Lateral]

Nobody said that it had to not take actions.

[dextercorvia]

What I mean is that if you put the two in an arena at creation, the domain generalist could wipe the floor with the Punitiate before the Mephit would even arrive. The Versatile Domain Generalist begins play with 0-9th level spells.

[Sims]

{{scrubbed}}

[dextercorvia]

{{scrubbed}}

What sort of people might that be? People that point out that the thing you think is so awesome is actually kind of meh?

Edit: Because I'm kind of hung up on the fact that there is no Triple Gestalt. If we are just making crap up, then I win, because I said so first. No take backs. I have immunity to anything you say, and I'm always taller and better looking, too.

[Lateral]

...You're a halfling with one eye. How could you be-

[LOTRfan]

...You're a halfling with one eye. How could you be-

I dunno. He mentioned he was making stuff up. :smalltongue:

[Lhurgyof]

Actually, Artificer 4 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer&post_num=4) is more powerful than StP Erudite, and if Pazuzu is off the table, more powerful than any Pun-Puns.

[Premise 1] Once a character becomes nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipotent such as Pun-Pun is, circumstances make it impossible for new threats to arise. This is because said nigh-omniscient/omnipotent character would know about any new potential threats and have the capability to quash them before they have a chance to mature.

Is the only issue I see with builds like these.

There are already nigh-omniscient and omnipotent beings and THEY would have something to say.

(Edit): And by that, I mean since both these builds use gods, I'm SURE the gods would have something to say before they even take their first class level.

[Sacrieur]

[Premise 1] Once a character becomes nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipotent such as Pun-Pun is, circumstances make it impossible for new threats to arise. This is because said nigh-omniscient/omnipotent character would know about any new potential threats and have the capability to quash them before they have a chance to mature.

Is the only issue I see with builds like these.

There are already nigh-omniscient and omnipotent beings and THEY would have something to say.

Introducing the problem of pun-pun. But pun-pun is the strongest character build nonetheless.

[Kylarra]

I, as well as a few others that I know of, like to play with the idea that Pun-pun already ascended and actively works to prevent other acts of cheesiness.

[gomipile]

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation...

oh, am I in the wrong thread?

Nevermind.


Anyway, to your questions:

First: I'd go with a maxed-out spell to power erudite. Use all the tricks of a batman wizard, all the non-sorcerer-only tricks of the mailman, and with the survivability and action-boosting tricks of using psicrystals and schism, etc. The simple build would be Erudite 5/Anarchic Initiate 10/Erudite 5 (to max out AI class features and get an extra bonus feat from Erudite 10)

Second: I'd go with the above gestalted with Wilder 1/Factotum 8/Chameleon 2/Wilder 9 for extra wild surge and power points, along with the factotum's extra actions and the chameleon's mutable bonus feat.

Third: The above gestalt gestalted with either Warblade 20 or Archivist and a prestige class like Geomancer or Dweomerkeeper. I'd lean towards the latter, since the ability to make ressurections, miracles, and whatnot cost nothing as Su abilities is too good to pass up. Alternatively, if you have the stats for it, you could go cleric+dweomerkeeper and use divine metamagic as well. This way, you have lots of buffs and out of combat free ressurections and miracles from the divine side, and combat actions from erudite and factotum.

[gomipile]

This "triple gestalt" thing you keep bringing up is ridiculous. There's no appreciable power difference between three classes smashed together and two classes that synergize well.

Eh, I think that's true as far as in-combat goes, but if you have one caster side devoted to out of combat persisted buffs and the other caster devoted to in combat actions to use up the third's factotum action economy, it could work well. That way you can optimize the buffing caster and the combat caster's spell selections with more focus.

[erikun]

Well, there's Pun-Pun, who can directly give himself everything. And the Omniscificer, who can convince the gods to give himself everything. Or you could just stop beating around the bush and directly say a character with maximum divine ranks.

Beyond that, I believe the Psionic Artificer is the highest ranked class. It has the ability to craft literally anything, along with the ability to use Persisted Time Stop. The ability of a crafting class to spend a full day's work within one round? To complete a week's worth of work in under a minute?

After that, Spell-to-Power Erudite is certainly close, what with basically memorizing nearly all spells and powers. Archivist would probably be next (ability to learn all divine spells, which can translate into all spells) and the other tier 1 classes after that.

A Tainted Scholar, specifically a Necropolitan Tainted Scholar, would also be rediculously high. They wouldn't have the variety of spells that the tier 1 classes do, but they do have virtually infinite spell slots and spell DCs.

For prestige classes, the Beholder Mage prestige class grants you up to 10 spellcasting actions a round (as I understand it). I believe that Dweomerkeeper allows you to give up any one spell slot other than your highest level as a 1/day SLA, so it would be simple to wait until 21st level and give up a 9th level spell slot for Wish or Miracle without a casting cost.

As for gestalt? Most of these classes are INT-based, so Factorium for multiple actions is useful. Psion for multiple-action psionic trickery will work as well, except for the Erudite (who is already a Psion). Most of the options work well together, although the Tainted Scholar's bonuses probably wouldn't work with psionics or crafting - so the Psionic Artificer//Tainted Scholar or StP Erudite//Tainted Scholer wouldn't be as useful as, say, Archivist//Tainted Scholar. Triple gestalt would be the same, just with more options available.

[Sacrieur]

Well, there's Pun-Pun, who can directly give himself everything. And the Omniscificer, who can convince the gods to give himself everything. Or you could just stop beating around the bush and directly say a character with maximum divine ranks.

Beyond that, I believe the Psionic Artificer is the highest ranked class. It has the ability to craft literally anything, along with the ability to use Persisted Time Stop. The ability of a crafting class to spend a full day's work within one round? To complete a week's worth of work in under a minute?

After that, Spell-to-Power Erudite is certainly close, what with basically memorizing nearly all spells and powers. Archivist would probably be next (ability to learn all divine spells, which can translate into all spells) and the other tier 1 classes after that.

A Tainted Scholar, specifically a Necropolitan Tainted Scholar, would also be rediculously high. They wouldn't have the variety of spells that the tier 1 classes do, but they do have virtually infinite spell slots and spell DCs.

For prestige classes, the Beholder Mage prestige class grants you up to 10 spellcasting actions a round (as I understand it). I believe that Dweomerkeeper allows you to give up any one spell slot other than your highest level as a 1/day SLA, so it would be simple to wait until 21st level and give up a 9th level spell slot for Wish or Miracle without a casting cost.

As for gestalt? Most of these classes are INT-based, so Factorium for multiple actions is useful. Psion for multiple-action psionic trickery will work as well, except for the Erudite (who is already a Psion). Most of the options work well together, although the Tainted Scholar's bonuses probably wouldn't work with psionics or crafting - so the Psionic Artificer//Tainted Scholar or StP Erudite//Tainted Scholer wouldn't be as useful as, say, Archivist//Tainted Scholar. Triple gestalt would be the same, just with more options available.

I disagree. By using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10678468&postcount=10) method a Red Wizard is more powerful than that. Every prepared spell he has is fully metamagic'd, and has impossible bonus CL and spell level.

It's cheese, but who doesn't like cheese?

[tyckspoon]

What I mean is that if you put the two in an arena at creation, the domain generalist could wipe the floor with the Punitiate before the Mephit would even arrive. The Versatile Domain Generalist begins play with 0-9th level spells.

How do you figure? Versatile Spellcaster won't let you get more than one level up, and I don't see where that character is getting spontaneous casting to even use Versatile Spellcaster to start..

[dextercorvia]

Alacritous Cogitation is standard entry. Uncanny Forethought works as well, but requires Spell Mastery doesn't explicitly use the word spontaneous.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) is my original post. Note, it can be done with only one flaw. I actually don't know what I was thinking when I said it needed two, unless I was adding in a Bloodline for a few extra spells known.

[Aspenor]

Isn't Pun-Pun possible at 1st without Pazuzu, though, with Precocious Apprentice: Summon Mephit?


Yeah, if you do it fast. The Mirror Mephit does control the Simulacrum, so you'd better finish before the spell ends.

That trick doesn't work. The Mirror Mephit refuses to cast Simulacrum, since it is a spell that would require XP if it were a normal spell rather than an SLA. Summoned monsters never cast SLA's that require XP if they were spells.



Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.


Alacritous Cogitation is standard entry. Uncanny Forethought works as well, but requires Spell Mastery doesn't explicitly use the word spontaneous.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) is my original post. Note, it can be done with only one flaw. I actually don't know what I was thinking when I said it needed two, unless I was adding in a Bloodline for a few extra spells known.

I am also unsure where you got the idea you can only scribe spells of 1st level into a spellbook at level 1. AFAIK there is no rule stopping you from scribing a 9th level spell if you have successfully deciphered it and have the cash.

[dextercorvia]

I am also unsure where you got the idea you can only scribe spells of 1st level into a spellbook at level 1. AFAIK there is no rule stopping you from scribing a 9th level spell if you have successfully deciphered it and have the cash.

I don't mean can't at all at first level. I mean you don't receive them as free spells in your book. The point was to get nines at first without relying on being able to find or purchase access to the spell or purchase scribing supplies. Even with a generous DM, that would cost 1350gp for a single ninth level spell. That is what I consider cost prohibitive for a 1st level character. Also, as I mentioned earlier, he doesn't ascend as far, but the ascension is automatic and requires no actions.


A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice.

At later levels your free spells can all be of your highest spell level.
At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

[Aspenor]

Oh, okay, I misunderstood your meaning.

[gomipile]

I thought you couldn't chain Versatile Spellcaster, since it only allows you to use two open slots to immediately cast a spell. At no point does the feat grant you a new slot one level higher.

Edit: nevermind, I think you're using the bonus domain slot and the bonus Elven Generalist slot. Oops, that is really cheesy, and would get a book thrown at me.

Edit: so, is the idea being able to cast a level 9 domain spell immediately, and then using that fact to let you learn two free level 9 wizard spells for free the next time you level up?

[dextercorvia]

I thought you couldn't chain Versatile Spellcaster, since it only allows you to use two open slots to immediately cast a spell. At no point does the feat grant you a new slot one level higher.

Edit: nevermind, I think you're using the bonus domain slot and the bonus Elven Generalist slot. Oops, that is really cheesy, and would get a book thrown at me.

And since the slot comes from Generalist, it indicates that you have a high enough class level to cast X level spells, so you get bonus spells from your int if applicable.

Did you think that there was a way to get ninth level spells at first level that wouldn't be cheesy?

Edit: Re: your second Edit; Yeppers.

[gomipile]

And since the slot comes from Generalist, it indicates that you have a high enough class level to cast X level spells, so you get bonus spells from your int if applicable.

Did you think that there was a way to get ninth level spells at first level that wouldn't be cheesy?

Edit: Re: your second Edit; Yeppers.

Okay, but one thing I don't get is that both of those wizard ACFs replace the same thing: namely, the ability to specialize in a school. The only reason that one might not think that is that the Domain Wizard ACF was written a bit lazily. However, if you rewrite the Domain Wizard to not change anything at all, but only to put it in the same format as a standard ACF, the only thing to put after Replaces: would be "ability to specialize in a school of magic."

[erikun]

I disagree. By using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10678468&postcount=10) method a Red Wizard is more powerful than that. Every prepared spell he has is fully metamagic'd, and has impossible bonus CL and spell level.

It's cheese, but who doesn't like cheese?
Doesn't the Tainted Scholar use the taint bonus in place of an ability score for both bonus spells and spell DC? And for all spells, at that - an Archivist//Tainted Scholar with 5000 taint would have around 1250 9th level Archivist spells and the same number of Tainted Scholar 9th level spells, all at DC 1269. An Archivist//Tainted Scholar/Beholder Mage would have all that, and the ability to cast 10 spells each round.

Although perhaps I'm misunderstanding parts of it. It's been awhile since I reviewed all the broken options available.

[dextercorvia]

Okay, but one thing I don't get is that both of those wizard ACFs replace the same thing: namely, the ability to specialize in a school. The only reason that one might not think that is that the Domain Wizard ACF was written a bit lazily. However, if you rewrite the Domain Wizard to not change anything at all, but only to put it in the same format as a standard ACF, the only thing to put after Replaces: would be "ability to specialize in a school of magic."

It is a class variant, which is not the same as an ACF. The Generalist requires you to give up the ability to specialize, but the Domain Wizard simply says you must not be a specialist also. Yeah, it could have been worded to prevent that, but it isn't. Pun-Pun isn't RAI either.


Doesn't the Tainted Scholar use the taint bonus in place of an ability score for both bonus spells and spell DC? And for all spells, at that - an Archivist//Tainted Scholar with 5000 taint would have around 1250 9th level Archivist spells and the same number of Tainted Scholar 9th level spells, all at DC 1269. An Archivist//Tainted Scholar/Beholder Mage would have all that, and the ability to cast 10 spells each round.

Although perhaps I'm misunderstanding parts of it. It's been awhile since I reviewed all the broken options available.

Mostly. Taint was divided into Corruption and Depravity. Depravity governs bonus spells, and Corruption governs DC's. It is actually easier to boost Depravity (by casting spells as a TS) than Corruption.

[gomipile]

Ok, a question about dextercorvia's level 1 elf wizard build. Why do the slots at level 1 look like:

>You end up with:
>level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
>slots 4 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 2

Wouldn't it actually be:

You end up with:
level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
slots 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1

This, since you have at least 1 domain slot and one universal slot at each level up to 9, and the elf substitution gives you a level 10 slot, since you can versatile spellcaster up a level 10 spell.

Also, this suggests to me the build:

Elf Factotum 1/Wizard 1/Factotum 18 picking up Alacritous Cogitation at 3 and Versatile Spellcaster at 6. Then just use no-save spells that work well with a low caster level in every slot.

Or, if you want CL19 spellcasting and Cunning Surge at level 20:
Factotum 1/Wizard 2/Factotum 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Factotum 5

This can be rearranged a bit to get Cunning Surge earlier and caster levels later:
Factotum 1/Wizard 1/Factotum 7/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 1

In that case the Wizard 1 at the end can be replaced with a level of some prestige class or other.

You could also sacrifice some caster levels to get Chameleon 2 so that you can use the bonus feat to get Extra Spell, scribe that spell as a scroll, and get a different Extra Spell the next day, rinse and repeat.

[dextercorvia]

You don't have a high enough Int for a bonus spell at levels 6-9. So, 6-8 only get the domain slot. You don't know any 10th level spells, so you can't versatile up to 10th. Therefore the Generalist slot is at 9th.

Edit: The extra spell thing isn't a bad idea, but you don't want to drop many casting levels. Sure this guy rocks out at levels 1-3 no matter what, but if you don't keep getting Wizard levels, he is going to look pretty paltry by 13 or so. Don't forget, as a generalist you are learning 3 spell per level plus the given one from your domain. If you have the chance at second flaw, you could do worse than Collegiate Wizard.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Is there an absolute best route to take in terms of character class?

First: Just one class at a time sort of build.
Second: Strongest Gestalt Route you think
Third: Strongest "Triple" Gestalt Route you think there is. (Then again, in Triple Gestalt, no matter what you are, you're pretty much unbeatable.)

Go easy on the monster classes though.

Single class: maybe swordsage/wizard.
Gestalt: factotum/warblade.
Triple gestalt: factotum/fighter/warblade.

[Sacrieur]

Doesn't the Tainted Scholar use the taint bonus in place of an ability score for both bonus spells and spell DC? And for all spells, at that - an Archivist//Tainted Scholar with 5000 taint would have around 1250 9th level Archivist spells and the same number of Tainted Scholar 9th level spells, all at DC 1269. An Archivist//Tainted Scholar/Beholder Mage would have all that, and the ability to cast 10 spells each round.

Although perhaps I'm misunderstanding parts of it. It's been awhile since I reviewed all the broken options available.

Well, actually any wizard could use the Circle Magic + Earth Spell cheese. So technically your Archivist/Tainted Scholar/Beholder Mage be extremely powerful.

[NNescio]

Single class: maybe swordsage/wizard.
Gestalt: factotum/warblade.
Triple gestalt: factotum/fighter/warblade.

Swordsage/wizard is strictly weaker than a straight wizard. JPM evens it out somewhat, but the wizard with some choice PrCs will still blow the former out of the water.

Triple gestalt: A full caster would offer far more benefits than fighter bonus feats, which is pretty much the only thing granted by fighter levels with that gestalt setup.