Can you explain this cheesy mechanic to me?

[tuesdayscoming]

So I was reading through the Red Wizard handbook, and Amechra had the following to say:

"As I noted in my wall of text in my thread on this, Earth Spell is utterly broken with [circle magic]. Why?

When you raise a spell n levels [with circle magic], Earth Spell grants you a spell level increase of n+1 and a caster level increase of n!"

[Emphatic additions] mine

I just don't see the interaction that's getting you this boost. Could anyone explain?

Thankee, Playground!

edit: to clarify, I get the basic concept. Free heighten comes from circle magic, earth spell then boosts CL. What bothers me is that circle magic, if I'm reading it correctly, applies heighten spell without actually requiring a higher level slot. Earth spell specifically states that upping the slot is a prerequisite for the feat to fire. Am I missing something?

[Sacrieur]

I don't get it either. There's nothing that would generate n! spell caster levels. Circle magic even states you can only increase your CL to 40. And that said, Heighten Spell doesn't increase your CL, it increases the spell's level, with Earth Spell, it would increase your caster level n amount, not n!.

[Veyr]

I assume that's what Amechra meant: you get an increase of n "!" - the "!" is an exclamation point, not a factorial mark.

[tuesdayscoming]

I'm sure he meant it precisely the way that you're reading it, Veyr, but all the same I don't see it working at all. As I wrote in the edit of my OP, earth spell requires casting the spell from a higher level spell slot, which the heighten from circle magic doesn't do. So is the combo just 'broke' rather than broken?

[Sacrieur]

I assume that's what Amechra meant: you get an increase of n "!" - the "!" is an exclamation point, not a factorial mark.

Oh so he's saying that you can heighten the spell level to n, using Circle Magic. However, Earth Spell grants a bonus CL of n - 1. He denoted it as n + 1, becuase n is the number of spell slots, and the +1 is from Earth Spell. This makes the CL of the spell n.

This maxes at a bonus CL of 90 (91 spell level). The master of the Circle Magic may choose any spell he wants, and heighten it to a max of 10 (9th level spell slot + 1 from Earth Spell). Next, the 9 members around him all expend 9th level spell slots. This increases the number of bonus levels that can be used by Circle Magic to 81.

The Circle Magic master may then use all 81 points to heighten the spell's level to 91 (10 + 81). Earth Spell increases your CL by 90.

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This takes 1 hour. Therefore, you are technically able to do this 24 hours and stack the bonuses, adding 81 to your spell's level and 80 to your CL every time it is performed.

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What had me confused was I thought he was saying it allows it to increase without bound and nonlinearly (as with n!).

[tuesdayscoming]

Oh, man, so is it that circle magic heighten DOES actually increase the level of the spell slot used, it's just that the donated levels give you an artificial slot of level x, where x is the sum total of all donated levels used to heighten? Because I see how that would work, but it's definitely not the way I interpreted the language of the ability.

[Sacrieur]

Oh, man, so is it that circle magic heighten DOES actually increase the level of the spell slot used, it's just that the donated levels give you an artificial slot of level x, where x is the sum total of all donated levels used to heighten? Because I see how that would work, but it's definitely not the way I interpreted the language of the ability.

Pretty much.

[tuesdayscoming]

Pretty much.

Wow... that's beyond awsome...

[Andion Isurand]

isn't a spell heightened from circle magic limited to becoming a 20th level spell?

[Sacrieur]

isn't a spell heightened from circle magic limited to becoming a 20th level spell?


Add Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or Heighten Spell metamagic feats to spells currently prepared by the circle leader. Each bonus level counts as one additional spell level required by the application of a metamagic feat to a spell. The circle leader may add the feats listed to a spell even if he does not know the feat or if the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leader's normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th).
(Emphasis mine. Source: http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/circle.shtml.)

In your defense, it is poorly worded, but the parenthesis is only pertaining to the sentence it is contained, rather than being listed at the end of the paragraph where it would be self contained. By strict observance of grammar, we're able to get away with this. While I'm sure they meant that you cannot go above 20th level, it is not what they wrote.

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And if you think that's broken get a load of this:

Since spell level is the deciding factor about how many spell bonus levels you get, you can use Circle Magic to break Circle Magic. 9 Circle Magic groups can create 9, 91 spell level spells. The masters of those circles then form a new circle and expel those spell levels to create a heightened spell with 9 x 91 spell levels (810). This means you get a + CL of 809. You could technically do this until 24 hours runs out.

BUT, we can fix that problem:

You can abuse planar travel to go to a flowing plane where time inside of the plane flows faster in relation to the material plane. So what appears to be a year in the flowing plane, may only have been 6 seconds in the material plane.

Now here's where things get really crazy. 9 wizards (in a group of 9) cast spells on a fast flowing plane until their time is nearly expired. They go into the slower flowing plane and channel all of their spell levels into another wizard. Then they go back to the fast plane and repeat the process until this has been done 23 times on the slower flowing plane (23 hours is the limit). You then have an outrageous bonus to spell bonus levels.

Now, you can continue this process exponentially by adding intervals between planes, and adding more wizards. Finally, when 9 wizards make it back to your material plane, and then they transfer their built-up power to you for a mere hour.

Your CL bonus and spell level of any spell you choose will be incredibly high. Pun-pun high. And you will have been able to apply /every/ metamagic feat to it.

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We can take this further too.


hese effects last for 24 hours or until expended. Circle bonus levels may be divided up as the circle leader sees fit. For example, the Red Wizard Hauth Var leads a circle in which four participants each cast 2nd-level spells. Hauth Var chooses to use three circle bonus levels to maximize his cone of cold spell, three to increase his caster level from 10th to 13th level for all level-based variables in his spells, and two to add a +2 bonus to any level cheeks he needs to make. The maximized spell is used up whenever he casts his cone of cold, and the other two effects remain for the next 24 hours. Many high-level Red Wizards lead circles on a daily basis to extract magical power from their apprentices.

Since we have a virtually limitless supply of bonus levels. We can divide points into each our prepared spells. This means we can apply every metamagic feat to every spell and then apply insane CL bonuses to every spell we have prepared. And this is all for a single hour a day and an army of mindless wizard drones.