Template for no level adjustment tiefling?

[Ozreth]

Anybody know where I can find this? Not too good at homebrewing that kind of stuff.

[Alaris]

Lesser Tiefling:

Same as Tiefling, except:

Remove +2 Intelligence, Resistances reduced to 3, Bane instead of Darkness, HUmanoid instead of outsider, remove its proficiencies.

[NamelessNPC]

If you can use PF, you may like this:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/tiefling

[Amnestic]

Lesser Tiefling:

Same as Tiefling, except:

Remove +2 Intelligence, Resistances reduced to 3, Bane instead of Darkness, HUmanoid instead of outsider, remove its proficiencies.

o.O Where'd you get that from? Lesser Tiefling - as in the PGtF - is just Tiefling except Humanoid (Planetouched) instead of Outsider (Native), ditto for Lesser Aasimar and the Lesser Genasi.

[Abbalah]

o.O Where'd you get that from? Lesser Tiefling - as in the PGtF - is just Tiefling except Humanoid (Planetouched) instead of Outsider (Native), ditto for Lesser Aasimar and the Lesser Genasi.

Lesser Tiefling is as you describe; he's referring to the Savage Progression Tiefling here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)

[Alaris]

Ah, completely my bad, I'm mis-remembering. Thought the Lesser versions had more penalties (Which they need, honestly. They're overpowered for a +0 LA race).

[Vangor]

Ah, completely my bad, I'm mis-remembering. Thought the Lesser versions had more penalties (Which they need, honestly. They're overpowered for a +0 LA race).

Would say most +0 LA races are rather underpowered. Remember, each is competing against a bonus feat and skill; hard to top.

[Alaris]

Well, let's take a look at this:

TIEFLING:
Lesser Tieflings As Characters
Leser Tiefling characters possess the following racial traits.

Counts as Humanoid (Planetouched) (No longer Outsider, which allows it to be affected by things that hit humanoids... but there were a lot of beneficial spells for humanoids only, so... it can be both a pro and a con)
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. (While the penalty balances out one, they do get a +2 bonus total).
Medium size.(Nothing to say)
A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet.(Matches humans anyway)
Darkvision out to 60 feet.(Dwarves have this, and its relatively nice, but nothing gamebreaking)
Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks. (This HELPS balance out the skill thing. Racial bonus, which isn't limited by level, and is straight)
Racial Feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels. (Normal)
Special Attacks (see above): Darkness.(SECOND level spell, once per day. I think that's fairly nice, especially for a LA +0 Creature)
Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5. (This is what really gets under my skin. LA +0, and THREE resistances at 5 per. I think the creature is starting to match up to human, even surpassing it)
Level adjustment +0.

All in all, I think Lesser Tieflings, and even Lesser Aasimars have a relatively good throw in for the race against the PhB races. They definitely match humans, at least in my opinion.

[Rockphed]

Well, let's take a look at this:

TIEFLING:
Lesser Tieflings As Characters
Leser Tiefling characters possess the following racial traits.

Counts as Humanoid (Planetouched) (No longer Outsider, which allows it to be affected by things that hit humanoids... but there were a lot of beneficial spells for humanoids only, so... it can be both a pro and a con)
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. (While the penalty balances out one, they do get a +2 bonus total).
Medium size.(Nothing to say)
A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet.(Matches humans anyway)
Darkvision out to 60 feet.(Dwarves have this, and its relatively nice, but nothing gamebreaking)
Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks. (This HELPS balance out the skill thing. Racial bonus, which isn't limited by level, and is straight)
Racial Feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels. (Normal)
Special Attacks (see above): Darkness.(SECOND level spell, once per day. I think that's fairly nice, especially for a LA +0 Creature)
Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5. (This is what really gets under my skin. LA +0, and THREE resistances at 5 per. I think the creature is starting to match up to human, even surpassing it)
Level adjustment +0.

All in all, I think Lesser Tieflings, and even Lesser Aasimars have a relatively good throw in for the race against the PhB races. They definitely match humans, at least in my opinion.

Um, I think you just quoted the normal tiefling characteristics. Which would be why they seem overpowered when compared to LA +0 races.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, let's take a look at this:

TIEFLING:
[SPOILER]
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. (While the penalty balances out one, they do get a +2 bonus total). Not that big of a deal honestly. Compared to most of the PHB races yes, but other than the human the PHB races are pretty sub par.

Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks. (This HELPS balance out the skill thing. Racial bonus, which isn't limited by level, and is straight)[/quote] The difference is, while the skill bonus can potentially apply to anything, the racial bonus applies to two specific skills that you might not actually ever use[/COLOR](Normal)

Special Attacks (see above): Darkness.[COLOR="red"](SECOND level spell, once per day. I think that's fairly nice, especially for a LA +0 Creature) Yes, once per day. It will also rarely see use because of that.
Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
(This is what really gets under my skin. LA +0, and THREE resistances at 5 per. I think the creature is starting to match up to human, even surpassing it) Whoop de doo. A bonus feat and bonus skill points can be relevant at all levels. Resist 5 to the three most common energy types can't.

[Alaris]

Well, given that someone about 2 posts before mine said that the Lesser Tiefling simply counts as humanoid instead of outsider, I was going off of that. If he was wrong, let me know.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, given that someone about 2 posts before mine said that the Lesser Tiefling simply counts as humanoid instead of outsider, I was going off of that. If he was wrong, let me know.

They count as both humans and outsiders last I checked which actually has quite a few drawbacks.

[Abbalah]

Well, given that someone about 2 posts before mine said that the Lesser Tiefling simply counts as humanoid instead of outsider, I was going off of that. If he was wrong, let me know.

Going from memory, I believe the only difference between the Tiefling/Aasimar and their Lesser varieties is that they lose the outsider type and become humanoids, but they DO also end up with the planetouched subtype, which makes them vulnerable to spells and effects that only target outsiders; IE, they'd be vulnerable to Hold Person but also vulnerable to Outsider-bane weapons and so forth, so there's a disadvantage there, albeit a relatively minor one most of the time.

[ffone]

Lesser Tiefling and Aasimar are both a little too strong for a regular group. Hardly gamebreaking, just 'why would I choose anything else for certain classes?' good. Which can reduce variety in the long run.

For me as a DM, they're in that band of 'not so strong I ban them, but I just think they weren't well designed.'

Remember, guys, the human bonus feat is such a coveted advantage among people here b/c you tend to be extreme optimizers, where every feat really really counts (as a prereq or as part of a great combo).

For most groups, the lesser aasimar cleric or paladin is getting +2 to two important stats - that's worth a lot more than what a regular player will get out of a bonus feat. For the cleric, the +2 Wis with NO LA is great. Spellcasting Prodigy (Faerun L1 feat for treating a spellcasting class as if your stat were 2 higher) is one of the best feats for primary spellcasters, and this gives you an actual +2 Wis. And other stuff. The Cha is similarly amazing for any Cha spellcaster.

For a tiefling rogue or wizard, the +2 Dex and Int is wonderful. The Int already offsets the human skill points. +2 Dex is more than what a not-super-optimized rogue will get out of most feats. Likewise the Int for a tiefling wizard, like with the aasimar cleric. Much better than an Int-boost-Con-penalized elf.

For either, the Cha penalty is no biggie, a dump stat anyway. The tiefling has a net +1 to Bluff and +3 to Hide. For most rogues this alone is well worth -2 Cha. Especially if you are an Invisible Blade (free action feint) or have Hide in Plain Sight.

[Flickerdart]

Losing outsider-type also loses martial weapon proficiency, which can be pretty important if you want a Swiftblade but don't want to multiclass or take proficiency feats.

[ffone]

Losing outsider-type also loses martial weapon proficiency, which can be pretty important if you want a Swiftblade but don't want to multiclass or take proficiency feats.

Rogues have proficiency with most of their fav weapons (like the rapier); main loss is maybe the longbow over shortbow. The tiefling wizard won't care.

For the cleric, the difference is likely morningstar instead of longsword (no 19-20 crit, but you get 2 damage types) or perhaps 1d8 v2 2d6 for a spear vs 2Hsword. (Of course, some will take War domain with a deity they chose just for the favored weapon and that domain.)

Also, for what it's worth, I suspect most groups don't even realize that they are supposed to get all martial proficiencies due to type.

[Flickerdart]

That has nothing to do with what I said, though. If you need martial weapons on a caster, and don't want to waste class levels, it's very, very useful.

[PollyOliver]

Lesser planetouched aren't overpowered, assuming your group allows humans. They're overpowered compared to the elf and half-elf, sure, but not compared to humans. If you allow strongheart haflings or whisper gnomes, they're pretty much right on target.

A tiefling gets 2 +2's and a -2, and one of the worst level 2 spells 1/day as an ability. Frankly, the best thing they get is the darkvision.

Humans get a feat. Do you think a wizard would rather have +2 INT or a free metamagic feat? Even spell penetration gets you more than +2 INT in terms of DCs, and spell focus gets you the same, plus helping qualify for archmage. For a rogue: +2 DEX, or another feat for their incredibly feat-starved TWF build? (The +2 INT = the human's skill point for the rogue) Tiefling pretty much only wins if you rolled so badly it's the only way to qualify for greater twf. For both, a wand of darkvision narrows the vision gap, and rogues get UMD.

The aasimar is similar. Maybe a fighter would rather have ability +'s of one of the lesser genasi, or some darkvision, than yet another feat, but the cleric would certainly prefer to grab even something as basic as extra turning, or, for more fun, a divine metamagic feat. Maybe the ability scores help the MAD paladin, but realistically the paladin's blowing feats left and right to make his charge build work.

The lesser planetouched are high-power compared to some of the PHB races, but not compared to humans, which IMO should be the baseline for comparison. In fact, for some of the more overpowered PHB classes, human is probably a better choice. The only class the extra feat doesn't really help, the fighter, is also one of the weakest classes in the game.

[herrhauptmann]

Spellcasting Prodigy (Faerun L1 feat for treating a spellcasting class as if your stat were 2 higher) is one of the best feats for primary spellcasters,

Yes, yes it is an awesome feat. Too awesome.
That's why it got nerfed in the shift to 3.5. I think Players guide to faerun has the new version.

Yes, before I knew that, I did have a character with that feat twice (int and cha). A wizard urpriest mystic theurge no less. Thank god I never actually played him. He had a lot of errors like that in the build.

[Flickerdart]

Even spell penetration gets you more than +2 INT in terms of DCs, and spell focus gets you the same, plus helping qualify for archmage.
Spell Penetration doesn't add to DCs, and having +1 to all DCs is better than +1 for only one school. Still, Spell Focus qualifies you for all sorts of neat things (Cloudy Conjuration, anyone?) so you might want to be taking it anyway.

[PollyOliver]

Spell Penetration doesn't add to DCs, and having +1 to all DCs is better than +1 for only one school. Still, Spell Focus qualifies you for all sorts of neat things (Cloudy Conjuration, anyone?) so you might want to be taking it anyway.

Yeah, don't know why I was even thinking that, whoops. :smallredface: But yeah, I'd rather get +1 on DCs for one school and be that much closer to qualifying for a better feat or archmage.

[faceroll]

Would say most +0 LA races are rather underpowered. Remember, each is competing against a bonus feat and skill; hard to top.

The bonus feat isn't that terrific for classes that get casting; bumps to primary stats are.

I think +mental stats are seriously underrated. An extra spell per day and +1DC is amazing stuff.

[Amnestic]

Well, given that someone about 2 posts before mine said that the Lesser Tiefling simply counts as humanoid instead of outsider, I was going off of that. If he was wrong, let me know.

Technically I was wrong, but only as a statement of omission. What I should have added was "Due to their Planetouched subtype, they are also vulnerable to spells which affect outsiders." Lesser Planetouched are vulnerable to both Charm Person and Banishment, for instance.

[Tokuhara]

I actually suggest Dark (Tome of Magic) if being a sneaky-type, especially Beguiler or Rogue. Free Hide in Plain Sight for 1 LA? Sign me up!

[Serpentine]

I use this in my games, but it's really more guidelines than a proper template or whatever:

Planetouched
Aasimar, tieflings and other planetouched are custom-made according to the ancestor creature. The following is a guide, rather than hard rules.
• +2 ancestor creature’s best ability, -2 ancestor creature’s worst ability.
• Resistance 5 to one energy the ancestor creature is immune or resistant to.
• +2 to the ancestor creature’s two best skills.
• Darkvision 60ft or low-light vision, if the ancestor creature had it.
• +4 to saves against one supernatural effect the ancestor creature is immune to (e.g. petrification).
• Possibly a penalty to reflect a vulnerability of the ancestor creature.
• 1d4 distinctive physical features.

[The_Snark]

That has nothing to do with what I said, though. If you need martial weapons on a caster, and don't want to waste class levels, it's very, very useful.

Really? :smallconfused: I mean, you're losing a class level either way, and I'd rather multiclass for a level than pick up a point of level adjustment. A level of fighter may not be optimal, but it's better than a level of nothing at all.

Unless you're using LA buyoff, or would be taking multiclassing penalties, I suppose.

[ffone]

Yes, yes it is an awesome feat. Too awesome.
That's why it got nerfed in the shift to 3.5. I think Players guide to faerun has the new version.

Yes, before I knew that, I did have a character with that feat twice (int and cha). A wizard urpriest mystic theurge no less. Thank god I never actually played him. He had a lot of errors like that in the build.

Oh huh, you're right, the newer version is only bonus spells, not DCs. Well that seems more sane - previously it was a total no-brainer vs Spell Focus (though that was +2 in 3.0 IIRC).

[Amnestic]

Really? :smallconfused: I mean, you're losing a class level either way, and I'd rather multiclass for a level than pick up a point of level adjustment. A level of fighter may not be optimal, but it's better than a level of nothing at all.

Unless you're using LA buyoff, or would be taking multiclassing penalties, I suppose.

Utilising the Otherworldly regional feat and the Celestial-Attended Birth (Champions of Valor) regional background, a Lesser Planetouched can go back to being an Outsider (Native). It does require a) regional Faerun feats being allowed and b) blowing a feat on it. :smalltongue:

[Swooper]

Losing outsider-type also loses martial weapon proficiency, which can be pretty important if you want a Swiftblade but don't want to multiclass or take proficiency feats.
I may be wrong but... Don't you need actual outsider hit dice to get that?

[Cog]

I may be wrong but... Don't you need actual outsider hit dice to get that?
It's a function of the type, not the HD.