Core (rogue) archer

[CalamaroJoe]

Please don't smack me with a bow, but - being quite new to 3.5 edition - I can't find any way to make an archer effective.
I mean: when all the other party members start to make more and more damage to foes (by melee feats or, of course, by spells) and have more and more tactical options, the party rogue archer is still sticked to 1d6+a few bonuses.

Are we missing something?
(apart from a Flaming Burst bow et al.)

[LordBlades]

Not really. The sniping option of the hide skill sucks big time (-20 to Hide and restricted to a single attack/round). Unless you somehow manage to get a cosntant supply of Greater Invisibility scrolls, a Rogue archer is pretty bad. Ninjas make much better archers than rogues due to Ghost Step. (Swift Hunter) Scouts even more so.

[Feytalist]

Unfortunately, in 3.x archers are a bit borked (read: sucky). They're feat-intensive, and they don't have a myriad of options.

There are some options to make them less bad, such as mighty bows with a high Strength, some PrCs like Order of the Bow Initiate, and some other choices, but even then its meh.

Another problem: even with extra sneak attack damage et al., they have a few weaknesses: piercing damage and type-specific attacks (say hello to the construct/undead/elemental that will kill you).

Archers have one feature though: extra attacks with Rapid Shot/Multishot etc. But even then it's more like flurry of misses.

So yeah, either pimp your bow or go pick up a pointy stick.

[Goonthegoof]

The best archer would probably be a warmage.

[LordBlades]

The best archer would probably be a warmage.

If we're talking optimized non-core, it's probably DMM Persist Dragonborn whatever Cleric with Zen Archery and a Footbow.

[Feytalist]

Yeah I was thinking the divine archer route as well. Lets say with the Elf and War domains for fun. The actual bow damage will still be sucky though, even with items like greater bracers of archery and/or goggles of the ebon night.

Edit: Dammit, don't edit while I'm responding to your post ><
Was originally DMM elf cleric...

[LordBlades]

Yeah I was thinking the divine archer route as well. Lets say with the Elf and War domains for fun. The actual bow damage will still be sucky though, even with items like greater bracers of archery and/or goggles of the ebon night.

Edit: Dammit, don't edit while I'm responding to your post ><
Was originally DMM elf cleric...

Sorry, I was thinking elf for free longbow prof., but then I realized Footbow is better. And since you need to take the feat anyway, no mechanical reason to be an elf anymore.

[CalamaroJoe]

Unfortunately, in 3.x archers are a bit borked (read: sucky). They're feat-intensive, and they don't have a myriad of options.
[...]
So yeah, either pimp your bow or go pick up a pointy stick.

Well, ok. I thought we were doing it wrong.

I'm going to talk with the archer player to hear what he would prefer to do with his character. I feel that he's losing affection with the character...

Thanks everybody, and thanks for trying to remain in-core (even if with scarce results :smallwink:)

[Killer Angel]

Unless you somehow manage to get a cosntant supply of Greater Invisibility scrolls, a Rogue archer is pretty bad.

Core only, a Ring of blinking is far more effective then a bunch of GI scrolls.
But that depends more on the ring's goodness.

[dextercorvia]

IIRC, The best archer in Core is Wizard, who can polymorph into an Arrow Demon.

For a Rogue, if by Core you mean OGL available resources, Greater Manyshot (from XPH, but available here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot)) can help get that sneak attack multiple times per round, even with the borked sniping rules.



Outside of Core, I believe the Archivist gets an edge over the Cleric.

[LordBlades]

Outside of Core, I believe the Archivist gets an edge over the Cleric.

I don't think so, unless there's a feat equivalent to Zen Archery for Int.

[dextercorvia]

I believe it is called Knowledge Devotion. Plus, there is Dark Knowledge and Hunter's Eye. By level 9, Archivist can have the DMM persist thing rolling as well.

[LordBlades]

I believe it is called Knowledge Devotion. Plus, there is Dark Knowledge and Hunter's Eye. By level 9, Archivist can have the DMM persist thing rolling as well.

Cleric, which will probably be cloistered will have Knowledge Devotion too. So it's Dark Knowledge vs. Zen Archery. Hunter's Eye isn't that for a ranged attacker IMHO.

I'm not saying you couldn't make a good Archivist archer, just that IMHO cleric is better.

[dextercorvia]

Cleric, which will probably be cloistered will have Knowledge Devotion too. So it's Dark Knowledge vs. Zen Archery. Hunter's Eye isn't that for a ranged attacker IMHO.

I'm not saying you couldn't make a good Archivist archer, just that IMHO cleric is better.

Archvist Knowledge Devotion comes online faster, as you have no reason not to have a high Int. Hunter's Eye was just an example. The Archivist gets all of the tasty archery spells (most of them from Ranger) and can persist them with Sacred Exorcist.

Or, if you want to play it that way. Archivist Archer can be high Wis instead (for bonus spells since he doesn't care about save DC's) and take Zen Archery.

The real benefit here is that Archivist gets access to spells that actually help the concept, other than just persist Divine Power/Favor/Recitation.

[Sr.medusa]

In core only? Pixie rogue with crossbow. TWANG, TWANG, TWANG, TWANG, 40d6 and -8 STR is a usable

[Telonius]

One often-overlooked item for Rogue archers is that everybody is flat-footed (and therefore without their Dex bonus, unless they have Uncanny Dodge or similar) until they take their first action in initiative order. If the Rogue wins initiative - a strong possibility, given their usually-high Dex and the Improved Initiative they probably took at level 1 - and is within 30 feet, they can get off a full volley of arrows with Sneak attack for that round. It's only one round, but every little bit helps.

As mentioned, Ring of Blink is also a decent Core item to help with Sneak Attacking. Taking levels in Arcane Trickster or Assassin to get access to Greater Invisibility (or UMD'ing a Scroll of it) is another common Core-only option for Rogues, sniper or not.

[ericgrau]

Archer is a good option for rogue in core. As just pointed out you get the surprise round plus a full attack before everyone else has acted all in sneak attacks. Given how short combats are in D&D don't underestimate it; it's good by itself. Grab rapid shot for an extra max attack bonus attack without spending money on enchanting a 2nd weapon. Really that's the extra attack that matters the most. A magic weapon is a source of increasing damage btw. Bracers of archery and point blank shot means your attack bonus isn't as bad as a melee rogue. You're at a distance so you don't have to deal with the rogue's extreme fragility. It's not too feat intensive either. So you can blow more feats on things like weapon focus to fix the rogue's poor attack bonus or outside of core there are things like dex to damage feats.

With all that you'll probably outlive and out-damage a TWF rogue as long as you get your sneak attack triggers; that's the harder part. Round 1 is easy. After that you need help from grease, grappling (if you have improved precise shot), greater invisibility, a ring of blinking, or etc. Or as said pixies make awesome rogues for their unlimited free action greater invisibility and good abilities overall.

I'd go halfling for the good dex and extra size bonus to attack rolls. At very low levels you get another bonus on thrown weapons too, but it's best to switch to a bow later.

[Eldariel]

Core-only, just stack few elementals on his bow and you're done. Holy Frost Shock Flaming bow hurts. Sure, it's the bow doing the damage but...

And yeah, max Hide, get Hide in Plain Sight (Shadowdancer being the easiest way), Use Magic Device for Grease/Greater Invisibility/etc. (or have a helpful caster on the party; far cheaper - still, always max Use Magic Device), try to win Initiative and go for the Xd6+Weapon Damage where X is your Sneak Attack. Only 30' but hey, still longer than melee range.


Yeah, it's mediocre but best you've got.

[PinkysBrain]

Please don't smack me with a bow, but - being quite new to 3.5 edition - I can't find any way to make an archer effective.
I mean: when all the other party members start to make more and more damage to foes (by melee feats or, of course, by spells) and have more and more tactical options, the party rogue archer is still sticked to 1d6+a few bonuses.
Rogues are about sneak attacks, archery is about full attacks (or greater manyshot works as well ... but since it's core only that doesn't work). So, a core only rogue archer needs blinking, greater invisibility or illusions at mid level (you can see through your own illusion, but others can't necessarily).

At low level you could consider taking along some mobile cover of some sort ... and hide between each shot (it's not sniping if you take a move action through full cover in between shots). A bit cheesy, but meh.

[Laniius]

My favourite archer is a warlock

[Forged Fury]

As mentioned, Ring of Blink is also a decent Core item to help with Sneak Attacking.
I've never understood why this is considered such a good option. That 20% miss chance you suffer always seems way too much of a drawback. Since you're ethereal and not just incorporeal, ghost touch doesn't really do anything to help you.

[Kyberwulf]

I would suggest using poisons.

[Killer Angel]

I've never understood why this is considered such a good option. That 20% miss chance you suffer always seems way too much of a drawback. Since you're ethereal and not just incorporeal, ghost touch doesn't really do anything to help you.

Probably 'cause it works even if enemies have see invisibility or true seeing.
Plus, blinking got some additional goodies, you're harder to be hurt (your miss chance is 20%, your enemies' is 50%... odds are in your favour), can bypass walls, avoid grapple, and so on.

[Curmudgeon]

The core Rogue has many limitations. To make sneak attack work consistently you'll need some way to deny foes their DEX bonus to AC. That probably means a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer at level 8, to get Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight. With that you can make full attacks, and Hide while attacking.

[Runestar]

If the wizard can blind everyone with glitterdust, that's auto-sneak attack for the rogue right there. :smallamused:

Acid flasks can be fun too (being touch attacks and all), but can get expensive quickly.

[Vangor]

Consider adding dex as precision damage to ranged with 1.5x to bows in particular. Also include a ranged power attack.

[Flickerdart]

I would suggest using poisons.
Poisons are a pretty bad option in Core unless you can get Minor Creation shenanigans going. Even so, lots of things are flat out immune.

The strength of an archer (and there are few of those) lies in being able to carry a golfbag of arrows on the cheap. Make use of Bane and Slaying arrows and consider dipping Fighter for Weapon Specialization (yes it's normally a bad feat, but when you've got a boatload of attacks, +2 on each one helps).

If SRD is allowed, a Thug Sneak Attack Fighter/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian makes a more effective Archer. With full BAB, Rapid Shot and Whirling Frenzy you're making up to six attacks per round, each one dealing good damage because you took Weapon Specialization and are using your Whirling Frenzy bonus to Strength in order to wield a more powerful composite longbow.

Barbarian 1/SA Thug 9/Assassin 10 gives you 10d6 Sneak Attack, Greater Invisibility as a spell, poison use and six aforementioned attacks at a BAB of +17.

If psionics are allowed, adding five levels of Egoist Psion to that gives you the following:
Psionic Minor Creation to pump out Black Lotus Extract (with Expanded Knowledge)
(Greater) Psionic Shot and Hustle to refresh it faster.
Unfortunately this loses you some Sneak Attack, but if you're fighting a bunch of zombies and stuff then it did you little good anyway.

SA Thug 7/Psion 3/Assassin 8/Cerebremancer 2 gives you full Assassin casting and the psionics mentioned above, but does lose you 3d6 SA.