[3.5] Anyone up to the challenge of making a Fox-Samurai?

[Mulletmanalive]

Ok, jist of this is that I've been working on my Fae-o-matic project for so long in parallel to the finalisation of my own system variant that I've kind of lost track of the advances in D&D in the last while...

I haven't read a Samurai homebrew in ages and I'm not well versed in ToB.

I've ended up designing a Kitsune race on request and while i've got a workable Mecha Victoriana example, I can't manage to pull off a D&D one.

I'm hoping someone will be up to the challenge of creating something decent for an example character using the D&D Kitsune Race. It just has to be strongly oriental, preferably not a magic user [more than Duskblade anyway] and have a CR between 4 and 9.

Beyond those three specs, please, go wild and design the most interesting thing you can come up with; samurai, sohei, bushi, ninja, whatever.

The end product will be fully credited as the example character on my thread.

[Amphetryon]

Might I suggest perusing Bhu's Samurai fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134119)? Really good stuff there.

[Tokuhara]

I actually played a Ratling Ronin using the OA Samurai (essentially Fighter with a class feature) who chose to do something Honorable, but disobeyed his Feudal Lord, thus stripped him of his Ancestral Daisho. However, my DM said I could forge a new sword and make that get all of the enchantment bonuses as if it were my daisho. I used a Wooden Sword with a base magic property: When drawn, it is treated as if Ironwood were cast on it (thus, I could block another sword and not worry about it breaking). He soon had to face his feudal lord in a Duel of Honor whereby he slew him and became the Damiyo (and thus, an NPC). My party and DM were sad to see him retire, but he had run his course and completed his quest. I miss Split-Tail the Dishonored

[Edit]: As for your challenge, here's my suggestion:

Race: Kitsune
Class: OA Samurai 5/Iaijutsu Master 10/Kensei 5

Focus him on striking first and doing rediculous damage with a heavily enchanted katana (no daisho usage. Just a single weapon)

[Amoren]

Obligatory Question: Why the heck is a kitsune, a race of spirits known for mischievousness and playing tricks (even in the good cases), or as messengers, be a Samurai? IT DOESN'T FIT! (Sorry, had to get that out of my system, I've come across to many kitsune-in-name-only characters and 'races' that I want to kill 'em all!).

That said, only a small thematic suggestion since I probably couldn't supply anything mechanic wise. I believe Samurai used to be primarily archers before they picked up sword usage (for use against Mongol invasions, I believe? Don't quote me on this, I'm likely to be dead wrong). So having Zen Archery and a high wisdom Tome of Battle class (perhaps swordsage) could add to that.

[Tokuhara]

Obligatory Question: Why the heck is a kitsune, a race of spirits known for mischievousness and playing tricks (even in the good cases), or as messengers, be a Samurai? IT DOESN'T FIT! (Sorry, had to get that out of my system, I've come across to many kitsune-in-name-only characters and 'races' that I want to kill 'em all!).

That said, only a small thematic suggestion since I probably couldn't supply anything mechanic wise. I believe Samurai used to be primarily archers before they picked up sword usage (for use against Mongol invasions, I believe? Don't quote me on this, I'm likely to be dead wrong). So having Zen Archery and a high wisdom Tome of Battle class (perhaps swordsage) could add to that.

Samurai were the equivelant of Knights. Some were archers, some were swordsmen, and some were BAMFs (Miyamoto Musashi for example). And just because Kitsune primarilly are chaotic doesn't mean they ALL are. Otherwise, Orc Paladins couldn't exist, nor could Dwarf Wu Jen. Perhap he is the exception, not the norm.

[Sacrieur]

Use homebrew Samurai. OA Samurai and CW Samurai are both tier 5/6. It's horrid.

[Tokuhara]

Use homebrew Samurai. OA Samurai and CW Samurai are both tier 5/6. It's horrid.

OA Samurai is okay in a low-mid opt game, but in High Opt, it is garbage. And the CW samurai is a lie. It should never hae been put into existance, along with Dragon Shaman, Marshal, and Dragonfire Adept. All garbage IMO. Instead of building ****ty classes, they should have errata'd the ones that did fail hard....

I appologize for my rant, but I regret nothing

[Kylarra]

OA Samurai is okay in a low-mid opt game, but in High Opt, it is garbage. And the CW samurai is a lie. It should never hae been put into existance, along with Dragon Shaman, Marshal, and Dragonfire Adept. All garbage IMO. Instead of building ****ty classes, they should have errata'd the ones that did fail hard....

I appologize for my rant, but I regret nothing
... Why is DFA in that grouping? DFA is amazing. Not a tier 1/2 class by any stretch of the imagination, but solidly tier 3... :smallmad:

[Sacrieur]

OA Samurai is okay in a low-mid opt game, but in High Opt, it is garbage. And the CW samurai is a lie. It should never hae been put into existance, along with Dragon Shaman, Marshal, and Dragonfire Adept. All garbage IMO. Instead of building ****ty classes, they should have errata'd the ones that did fail hard....

I appologize for my rant, but I regret nothing

OA Samurai is tier 5. Assuming that a mid-op game is tier 3, then it will still be out-shined. At best, OA Samurai is a one-trick pony. He's going to be devastated by ToB classes.

[Tokuhara]

... Why is DFA in that grouping? DFA is amazing. Not a tier 1/2 class by any stretch of the imagination, but solidly tier 3... :smallmad:

It's pointless. Sorcerer fills the fluff void that DFA was inteded to cover. "I have dragonic blood and I know how to use it" stchick is already Sorcerer's domain. With DFA, there is little reason to play sorcerer other than as a wizard-replacement

[Jarian]

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/members/vertigo+paris/albums/misc+pics-36/thread-derail-1953.jpg

So guys, how about that kitsune oriental character the OP asked for? :smallwink:

[Tokuhara]

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/members/vertigo+paris/albums/misc+pics-36/thread-derail-1953.jpg

So guys, how about that kitsune oriental character the OP asked for? :smallwink:

Like I said, OA Samurai/Iaijutsu Master/Kensei. Job = Complete

[Jarian]

While adequate for flavor, I doubt he's going to try to pass off a level 20 character as CR 4 to 9.

[Amoren]

Samurai were the equivelant of Knights. Some were archers, some were swordsmen, and some were BAMFs (Miyamoto Musashi for example). And just because Kitsune primarilly are chaotic doesn't mean they ALL are. Otherwise, Orc Paladins couldn't exist, nor could Dwarf Wu Jen. Perhap he is the exception, not the norm.

Well, I should clarify that my problem wasn't one of an alignment... Well, kinda. I can understand exceptions, and some kitsune lore has them as pretty lawful, at least in some cases from what I can garner. It was mostly, like I said, just back lash at stereotypical brute/Naruto-styled kitsune characters that made me, most likely unjustedly, lash out off handedly just out of principle. That being said, no racial charisma bonus? Come on!

Alright, back on topic. I was going to suggest Eternal Blade for a creative prestige class, and fluff the spirit mentor being tied to your ancestral weapons, but since that's elf only that nixed that idea. Still, I think swordsage would be a rather good idea, at least thematically. Or at least, I always imagined Samurai being the wry bastards who are always one step ahead of their attackers rather than wearing heavy armor or soaking blows, and sword sage works for that in my mind. Of course, I don't know a thing about the armor utilized by Samurai back int eh day so I don't know what armor classification it would fall under, but in my mind it couldn't be any heavier than a breast plate (medium armor?). Just avoid the Setting Sun and Shadow Hand manuevers and go for more Diamond Mind.

Other than that, I don't know much. I'm far from a great optimizer and character builder, especially on this site (evident by my catfolk rogue character dying in the second session due to undead half-orc barbarian axe to the face).

[Kylarra]

It's pointless. Sorcerer fills the fluff void that DFA was inteded to cover. "I have dragonic blood and I know how to use it" stchick is already Sorcerer's domain. With DFA, there is little reason to play sorcerer other than as a wizard-replacementI guess that's one way of looking at it. 3.X does indeed have a plethora of base classes. It does seem odd that you're singling out DFA in that though when there's so many other redundant classes and you're toting the virtues of the OA samurai which is little more than a glorified fighter ACF.

[Cartigan]

OA Samurai is tier 5. Assuming that a mid-op game is tier 3, then it will still be out-shined. At best, OA Samurai is a one-trick pony. He's going to be devastated by ToB classes.

As like every marshal class? It's like saying peas are terrible because cake is awesome. Duh.

[Kylarra]

So guys, how about that kitsune oriental character the OP asked for? :smallwink:Strongly oriental fighty type is very minimal guidelines.

Swordsage X for your wise mystical fighter.
Warblade X for your strong fighter.
Crusader X for your divine fighter.

I mean, really there you go. Decent fighty type, choose oriental weapon of choice, give yourself a home school and translate all the names of your maneuvers into japanese. Could PrC into Shadow Sun Ninja if that amuses you too.

[Mulletmanalive]

Ok, as no-one is interested in actually helping in the manner requested, I'll just unsubscribe from this thread and forget it ever happened.

For those who dislike my design choices, that's fine, but as I spent rather a lot of time on the research [somewhere between 2.5 to 4 hours] and covered all the bases, I'm going to politely ignore the suggestions that I don't know what I'm talking about.

There's nothing in the lore that suggests they needed a Cha bonus as they're illusionists anyway. Convincing someone you're a faceless ghost etc is going to have your Cha completely overshadowed by the +20 bonus.

[Tokuhara]

I guess that's one way of looking at it. 3.X does indeed have a plethora of base classes. It does seem odd that you're singling out DFA in that though when there's so many other redundant classes and you're toting the virtues of the OA samurai which is little more than a glorified fighter ACF.

It's not class features that bugs me, its flavor. Socerers are mages who cast from their bloodline, be it Draconic, Fiendish, Fey, or whathaveyou. I prefer classes with unique flavor. A DFA to me just looks like a cheap rip-off of Sorcerer. I do not include Warlock for that such reason. Warlock has his own unique flavor that makes me adore him in comparison to DFA's copy-paste flavor. OA Samurai to me also follows such flavor voids. He is an honorable warrior, born into nobility, and a master of his craft, not some chump commoner who picked up a sword one day and said, "I'm good with this here pointy-thingy"

[Tokuhara]

Ok, as no-one is interested in actually helping in the manner requested, I'll just unsubscribe from this thread and forget it ever happened.

For those who dislike my design choices, that's fine, but as I spent rather a lot of time on the research [somewhere between 2.5 to 4 hours] and covered all the bases, I'm going to politely ignore the suggestions that I don't know what I'm talking about.

There's nothing in the lore that suggests they needed a Cha bonus as they're illusionists anyway. Convincing someone you're a faceless ghost etc is going to have your Cha completely overshadowed by the +20 bonus.

I'm trying to help bro. I posted a build... :smallfrown:

I just prefer to not follow the herds of sheep

[Sacrieur]

Ok, as no-one is interested in actually helping in the manner requested, I'll just unsubscribe from this thread and forget it ever happened.

For those who dislike my design choices, that's fine, but as I spent rather a lot of time on the research [somewhere between 2.5 to 4 hours] and covered all the bases, I'm going to politely ignore the suggestions that I don't know what I'm talking about.

There's nothing in the lore that suggests they needed a Cha bonus as they're illusionists anyway. Convincing someone you're a faceless ghost etc is going to have your Cha completely overshadowed by the +20 bonus.

Swordsage X.

Kitsune have a bonus to dex and wis, both traits that are important for swordsages. A swordsage can be any flavor you really want, from samurai to ninja.

[Amnestic]

Bard. You're not after much casting, so I'd probably focus on the stabby-stabby and buffy-buffy aspects. Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration (watch out, your DM might have your head for this!), the 'standard' Inspire Courage increases. Grab a Crystal Echoblade.

You can play/fluff it however you like. Put points into Perform (Oratory) or Perform (Shout Orders At People) or whatever - Bardic Music doesn't require an actual musical component. Perform (Tapdance) is perfectly valid option. You could play your Samurai off as a battle commander type guy rather than a stand on the front lines slash at things kind of guy without much trouble. The Bard's social skills would give you a nice bonus to this too.

Also, you're a Bard. And Bards rock. :smallcool: Might want to consider PrCing into Virtuoso since he buffs up Inspire Courage too. Other than that...not sure about what else to do. Normally I'd suggest Sublime Chord but you're not after casting so...*shrug*

Might need to get your DM to remove the hilariously ridiculous "Any Non-Lawful" restriction on Bards though. Honestly I have no idea what WotC were thinking with that one.

Off-topic - On the DFA: Fluff is malleable. You can have Dragonfire Adept Warforgeds quite easily (and with their boon to Constitution and varied immunities, they're not a bad choice). This implies they get a Breath Weapon and dragonblood despite not breathing or having blood. DFAs are a solid T3 class and while the whole 'dragonblood' thing is arguably taken by sorcerers (campaign specific, I might add. You don't need that fluff for Sorcerers either), does it really hurt to have another one?

How many casters get their powers from the gods? 3-4 in core alone. Well, if you'd rather, it's 2 from the gods (Cleric+Loladin) and 2 from the abstract concept of 'nature' (Rangers+Druids) though, again, this is depending on setting and personal choice.

/Love me some DFA.
//Especially when I'm a KITTY (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/421541865_3e1eebf275.jpg).

[Amoren]

You can play/fluff it however you like. Put points into Perform (Oratory) or Perform (Shout Orders At People) or whatever - Bardic Music doesn't require an actual musical component. Perform (Tapdance) is perfectly valid option.

...He could have Perform (martial arts)! His performance would actually be him fighting with the Samurai arts!

[gomipile]

Obligatory Question: Why the heck is a kitsune, a race of spirits known for mischievousness and playing tricks (even in the good cases), or as messengers, be a Samurai? IT DOESN'T FIT! (Sorry, had to get that out of my system, I've come across to many kitsune-in-name-only characters and 'races' that I want to kill 'em all!).


Have you seen Yojimbo, or read the Book of Five Rings, or The Book of Family Traditions on the Art of War?

While samurai are not primarily known for mischievousness and tricks, nor was such necessarily unheard of entirely.


Oh, and to the OP, I'd definitely suggest that you allow the 3.0 Iaijutsu Focus skill, as it allows for some badassery incarnate.