a rant? a ramble? I'm not quite sure

[big teej]

soundboarding I suppose.

I have a player who has a ... 'distinctive' playstyle.

that of the barbarian.

however

he refuses to play one. he has thus far played
a cleric - healbot, has yet to do anything BUT heal.
a ranger - deceased
a bard - replacing the ranger, seems to forget that he can cast spells and make his party better at stuff.

from what I have observed, no matter who/what/where he is, his response to the situation is the same.

rush into combat and start beating on things (the cleric is an exception, but humor me)

having observed his playstyle and his personality, I made the suggestion that "I think you would enjoy playing a barbarian"

mostly because a barbarian is MEANT to charge in and hit things.

however, he seems set on taking other classes (I have no issue with this, I want players to play what they want, please refrain from assuming this is never true)
but regardless of what he plays, he plays them the same.

and I cannot help but wonder why?

on top of this, a fellow player has confided in me that having observed our half-orc barbarian in one campaign being roleplayed as the :thog: variety of barbarian. the player feels that 'barbarians are stupid'

and further more, inferred from the conversation (perhaps incorrectly) that the player was making a connection along the lines of
"barbarians are stupid"
"everyone thinks I should play a barbarian"
ergo
"everyone thinks I am stupid"


this isn't the case at all (though I would occaisionally question the positive value of his wisdom modifier)

I feel like I have a hard time engaging this player, and I'd like to help him out. and I'd like the party feel like he IS contributing.

I recently mistakenly gave him permisssion to play d4 casters** I worry that he is going to become increasingly upset that his characters keep dying/in mortal peril

for instance, the aforementioned ranger was killed session before last.
his bard (in his INTRODUCTORY SEQUENCE no less) was nearly slain last session.

my dice hate this guy, I would roll for who I'm hitting (he had been designated as 2 early on) I would roll a 2 followed by x*** 90% of the time.

and I felt really bad for almost killing him again back to back, but at the same time we couldn't help but laugh.

but that's irrelevant

he has since told me he is going to start rolling up backup characters for every session (about two per session for the rest of the year)

while I'm all in favor of having backup characters (we just had two very lethal sessions back to back)

I am concerned about my player's fun, both this individual and the group as a whole.

and I feel that this individual occaisionally infringes on that, but that is an issue for later.




**I've never played one, and having seen on these forums how easy it is for them to break the game even by accident, I have up until now instituted a rule of "I'd really rather you not play one unless you start from first level" as this would allow me to watch the character grow and learn how to handle a wizard/sorcerer in my party (whichI've never had to do before)

*** where x is anything that hits him




tl;dr - how can I help this impulsive player have fun?

[Angry Bob]

Suggest that he play a martial character that's not "stereotyped" as stupid. Fighter, if the game's low-power, Warblade if it's mid/high power. Psywarrior might also work, but if he plays like you say he does, he might forget to buff.

The other option is to tie him to a couch and make him watch Conan the Barbarian and see if his view on barbarians changes.

[Veyr]

Crusaders can make excellent barbarian-types: they have a d12, they do more damage as they take damage, and they can heal as they smash! Sounds perfect for this guy.

[Angry Bob]

Crusaders can make excellent barbarian-types: they should have a d12, they do more damage as they take damage, and they can heal as they smash! Sounds perfect for this guy.

Fix'd. For some reason, they only have d10s. It's the warblade with the d12.

[Veyr]

Oh, whatever. ~1 HP/level isn't the end of the world.

[Angry Bob]

I spy, with my little eye, someone who's never been one-shotted down to exactly -10.

[Telonius]

Second the Crusader idea. Barbarian isn't the only class based around charging in and wrecking shop, though it's probably the one that's easiest to give things like Pounce. And just generally, a charge and power attack combination is really one of the best things for most melee classes to be doing with their time. It's your primary job to get up in the monster's grill to keep him away from the casters.

Some other classes that might fit:

Paladin (especially built around Spirited Charge)
Knight (see above)
Fighter (Dungeoncrasher especially)
Scout (though he might forget to use Spring Attack to put himself out of danger after he hits)

As for the Barbarian prejudice... yeah, there is a lot of that. Barbarian can model anything from Thog to Conan, but most Barbarian portrayals tend towards the Thog end. I'd give him some Robert Howard books and have him read them through. Then give him the epic of Gilgamesh and have him think about Enkidu. He doesn't have to be confined to drooling stupidity.

[nyarlathotep]

Just teach him how to play clericzilla, point out divine might and righteous might.

[Epsilon Rose]

Binder and totemist can also fair competently in combat and while the totemist has a slightly barbarian-esque flavor the binder certainly does not (no one's going to accuse the guy whose summing dead gods of being stupid. Crazy maybe, but not stupid).

[McSmack]

Find some references to barbarians in nerd culture that don't follow the barbarians-are-dumb stereotype. Wolverine comes to mind off the top of my head. Conan. Riddick. Any sort of fighter who uses instinct more than training would work. But not stupid by any means, it's simply instinctual.

I think the barbarian here is hindered by the connotation of the rage ability. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that the character goes feral and Hulk smash on everything. It could be represented by any number of things - from cold precision focus to divine inspiration. Heck I had a player who's barbarian was a drug addict and would " pop a lil' somethin' " once the battle started to represent his rage ability.

Personally I'd be straight with him. Tell him that after seeing his play-style you'd think he might like to play a reckless warrior who's ready to do battle at the drop of a hat. Then work with him on ways to make the class what he wants it to be.

Also remember that not every attack has to be based on a random roll. There aren't many enemies who are going to randomly choose thier opponents. Mindless mobs are going to attack whatever's closest/tastiest while others will attack whatever seems either weakest or the most significant threat. Spread the hate out a little bit even if the dice say otherwise, because it's no fun to be the guy who dies every time.

[Sacrieur]

Barbarians aren't all stupid, you can give them any Int score you want. The barbarians I play have Int scores of at least 12.

[Epsilon Rose]

Oh, that just reminded me of the Bloody Nine from the first law series. That is an excellent take on an intelligent barbarian. In fact, that series has several people who'd probably be barbarians but are nowhere near thog level intelligence (I think one's a general or close to it).

[bloodtide]

1.No matter what class he wants to play, you can always help him be a 'brasher'. Look at alternative class features and feats.

2.How about just have him be a fighter?


3.You might want to dispel any Barbarian myths. Point out that plenty of famous Barbarians were not exactly 'dumb'. Conan is a great example, he sure was not dumb. How about Wufgar or Riverwind? Even Worf(StarTrek), T'elc(Stargate) and Wolverine(x-men) fit the barbarian mold. You might want to point out these examples.

So add some cool barbarian types into your games as NPCs to show him how cool they are. The best might a barbarian buddy, who can charge in and do a huge amount of damage and leave the player saying 'wow'.

[big teej]

you know, I knew I was forgetting something, serves me right for typing that early in the day.


Crusaders can make excellent barbarian-types: they have a d12, they do more damage as they take damage, and they can heal as they smash! Sounds perfect for this guy.

I didn't think of it, but I should have mentioned our sources he can pull from.
-note- this isn't everything, just stuff with classes outside of the phb
Magic of Incarnum is the only thing that includes new base classes for us
aside from that
we have access to a myriad of prestiege classes.

so unfortunately he can't play a crusader.


Some other classes that might fit:

Paladin (especially built around Spirited Charge)
Knight (see above)
Fighter (Dungeoncrasher especially)
Scout (though he might forget to use Spring Attack to put himself out of danger after he hits)

As for the Barbarian prejudice... yeah, there is a lot of that. Barbarian can model anything from Thog to Conan, but most Barbarian portrayals tend towards the Thog end. I'd give him some Robert Howard books and have him read them through. Then give him the epic of Gilgamesh and have him think about Enkidu. He doesn't have to be confined to drooling stupidity.

a 2nd thing I forgot to mention,
the player is physically incapable of playing anything but chaotic neutral, I don't care what he puts down on his sheet, thats what he plays (and we do enforce alignment restrictions, and paladin variants are out)

I might try the book idea, I don't know how attracted he'd be to the novels however.



Just teach him how to play clericzilla, point out divine might and righteous might.

I'm a big fan of 'self discovery' if somebody wants to play clericzilla, they get to figure it out on their own.

plus, can you even pull clericzilla off in core? (he doesn't have much outside of it to work with)



Find some references to barbarians in nerd culture that don't follow the barbarians-are-dumb stereotype. -snip-

Personally I'd be straight with him. Tell him that after seeing his play-style you'd think he might like to play a reckless warrior who's ready to do battle at the drop of a hat. Then work with him on ways to make the class what he wants it to be.

Also remember that not every attack has to be based on a random roll. There aren't many enemies who are going to randomly choose thier opponents. Mindless mobs are going to attack whatever's closest/tastiest while others will attack whatever seems either weakest or the most significant threat. Spread the hate out a little bit even if the dice say otherwise, because it's no fun to be the guy who dies every time.

in response to the first bit.
I feel his 'barbarians = dumb' stance comes from the existing barbarian in a party, which IS roleplayed as being unable to form proper sentences, despite having int 10.

second, I have been utterly up front with him about his playstyle (even other players have used it as a basis to suggest barbarian/fighter)

last, the random attack rolls were something of a one off thing, a few characters were standin on a wagon and the baddies were just plunking arrows onto the wagon, not aiming at specific individuals, normally they do follow the threat/tasty aiming method.


Barbarians aren't all stupid, you can give them any Int score you want. The barbarians I play have Int scores of at least 12.

I am aware, the player is the one with this connotation.

heck, my first character was a barbarian with 15 int.



Oh, that just reminded me of the Bloody Nine from the first law series. That is an excellent take on an intelligent barbarian. In fact, that series has several people who'd probably be barbarians but are nowhere near thog level intelligence (I think one's a general or close to it).

I am intrigued.... but what are you talking about?


also, for everyone, I'll put up a complete list of our sources later, I don't have my books with me.


also, hopefully I haven't been ninja'd too badly.

[Veyr]

I'd suggest looking to add Tome of Battle to the booklist ASAP, just because it's the single best official book you can buy for 3.5. The Crusader really would be perfect for him.

The Totemist might be an interesting idea for him, but he'd probably ignore its abilities too much. Though Landshark Boots or Sphinx Claws would fit his play style to a T.

[Angry Bob]

As a plus, the warblade has a mechanical intelligence focus(to reflex saves, damage vs flanked/flat-footed enemies, to crit confirmation, and something else I forget right now), so charging into battle for them is more a matter of pride and personal honor than WAAAGH.

[nyarlathotep]

I'm a big fan of 'self discovery' if somebody wants to play clericzilla, they get to figure it out on their own.

plus, can you even pull clericzilla off in core? (he doesn't have much outside of it to work with)


All clericzilla uses from out of core is divine feat. Righteous might, divine favor, and divine might are all the most important buffs spells for the zilla and are all core. Divine favor is low enough level to quick regularly and so even if you don't have prep time your buffs only take 2 rounds to completely finish.

[big teej]

well, I'm back in my dorm now so I can post our resource list.

but first, in regards to ToB

I am aware its a great book, however, my group isn't ready for it. I've asked around the playground and the general consensus is it's to game changing for my group to worry about just yet.

heck, I even had some people tell me the same thing about incarnum.

but I digress.
I have other threads up for book suggestions.

here's what we have to work with
The SRD
Magic of Incarnum
The Book of Vile Darkness
Monster Manual
Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5
Arms and Equipment Guide
Player's Handbook
Book of Exalted Deeds
Races of Stone
Monster Manual II
Dieties and Demigods
Cityscape
Defender's of the Faith
Dungeon Master's Guide 3.0
Sword and Fist
Tome and Blood
Dungeon Master's guide II
Song and Silence
Eneimes and Allies

other notable rules
we roll stats 4d6 drop lowest
no multiclass penalty
we enforce alignment restrictions
anything that I the DM do not possess in hardcopy* is autobanned
anything that the player owns in hardcopy that I do not is approved on a case-by-case basis, subject to my oversight and approval.

*the two exceptions to this are a Knight class PDF file we have and the SRD

that should be everything.

oh
op level?
about as low as it gets.

in fact, don't think of it as "optimizing" at all.

[KillianHawkeye]

Even Worf(StarTrek), T'elc(Stargate) and Wolverine(x-men) fit the barbarian mold.

I'll give you Worf and Wolverine, but Teal'c? He's the most stoic guy in history. I can hardly remember him getting angry about anything, ever. He'd be a pure Fighter for sure, not Barbarian.

Ronon (SG:Atlantis) could be a Barbarian, but there's a vast difference between those two characters, as seen in the one episode they were stuck on a station together against a ton of Wraith.

[Sacrieur]

I'll give you Worf and Wolverine, but Teal'c? He's the most stoic guy in history. I can hardly remember him getting angry about anything, ever. He'd be a pure Fighter for sure, not Barbarian.

Ronon (SG:Atlantis) could be a Barbarian, but there's a vast difference between those two characters, as seen in the one episode they were stuck on a station together against a ton of Wraith.

Spock.

I mean... What?

[NNescio]

http://ompldr.org/vODJxeQ/040710.png

[Epsilon Rose]

A decent starting point (short of reading it) for the first law would be here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFirstLaw). It's a series of three books that are all relatively short (by my standards, ymv) and fairly good.
One of the main characters is called Logan Nine-fingers. He's an ex-warlord and stereotypical elite soldier (very reminiscent of solid snake). He's also the definition of a berserker. When things go bad he slips into this other personality called the Bloody Nine who's stronger, tougher and crueler but if anything even more intelligent and tactical since he's hindered by little things like morals when he's figuring out how to kill you and all your friends.

[Vangor]

Provided this player is not instigating combat unnecessarily, I see nothing wrong with his style of play. Certainly he is not being the most helpful person, but as long as he is enjoying himself, as long as his enjoyment is doing nothing to hinder the enjoyment of other party members, what is wrong? Think of how inept Leo the Bard is in Dorkness Rising; the folly of his character is half the hilarity. Sure this type of thing hinders campaign progress, but if the group is concerned about getting to the end of the campaign, I would suggest finding a different medium for games.

[Lateral]

In a virtually no-op game like that? Honestly, with what you've got there, I'd just go with a freaking Fighter. As long as he picks decent feats (i.e. Power Attack), he'll hold up.

[erikun]

how can I help this impulsive player have fun?
Isn't he having fun? It sounds like he's having quite a bit of fun. You don't need to play the Barbarian class to have fun charging into battle.
Perhaps the solution - or at least, a solution - is for the DM to stop insisting he play a Barbarian?

Beyond that, I can think of a few options.

Point out the Druid. Point out Wild Shape. Point out the various bears and dire bears in the Monster Manual. You might also want to point out the Natural Spell feat, so that he can summon bears while being a bear with his own pet bear. This sounds like it would appeal to him, and not using his spells "effectively" will hardly limit the Druid.

Offer him the Wildshape Ranger variant, which trades a combat style for Wild Shape into medium/large animal types. I'm afraid I'm not sure which book it's from, though.

Offer him the Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) variant, so that he can smite while rampaging.

The Champions of Gwynharwyf is a Paladin/Barbarian prestige class from Book of Exalted Deeds that combines charging in and smashing heads with smiting evil. It works well with the Paladin of Freedom variant, and it's hard to call them a "dumb barbarian" when they're in full plate and radiating a holy aura.

The Totemist sounds like a fine idea, or at least something to try. Just because he's not using all his abilities doesn't mean he isn't having fun playing the character, after all.

You might want to consider the Warlock from Complete Arcane. It's not "run in and smash" but it is "run in and blast" and it has a lot of free, continuous magical abilities that he can just activate and forget about otherwise.

And finally, give Tome of Battle a try. If he likes the idea of a "magical" melee fighter, than Tome of Battle may be the perfect fit.

[MarkusWolfe]

Your player has it all wrong, and clearly does not know how barbarians work. See, the apparent 'stupidity' of a barbarian is due to 3 equally weighted factors:

A) Difference in education. A barbarian was taught a very different skill and knowledge set than any given civilized man. As a result, things commonly known to the civilized are unknown to the barbarian. Civilized folk look down on the barbarian as stupid because anyone who didn't know these things in their society is usually stupid. However, when put into his own element, the barbarian can show that he is just as learned as any civilized man. The barbarian being illiterate is a prime example of this. Instead of learning to read, the barbarian learned how to track animals, live in the wilderness, dodge traps and natural hazards and become unflankable.

B) Civilized men are usually book smart or street smart. Barbarians usually have animal cunning. It's not surprising that civilized men cannot recognize this drastically different form of intelligence.

C) In order to trick civilized men into underestimating him, the barbarian often plays dumb.


Just present the following argument to your player and everything should clear everything up:

The intelligence of the average barbarian>>the intelligence of the man who fights like a barbarian but isn't one.