So I went to a gaming store...

[Sarco_Phage]

while on vacation in Canada, specifically the only one in the general area (Craving for a Game in Surrey Central).

When there, I was told by the counter-dude that they don't stock 3.X books anymore, because WoTC had stopped production of those books and in addition had told them to stop selling any copies they already had in stock.

I'd like to ask, first, is there any truth to this, and second, why would they do this? The counter-guy told me that he's frequently asked for 3.X books by customers, only to have to turn them away. WoTC could be making money off this!

(if you're wondering why I didn't notice this before, initially I thought that the lack of 3.X sourcebooks/splats in my home country was merely a function of the fact that we don't have nice things)

[Sacrieur]

They think if they stop supporting 3.X, it'll push players to buy 4e books. In which case we have to buy all new core rule books, DM guides, etc. It's about money.

[Starscream]

If you don't mind used copies, I recommend Amazon.com. You can usually find them.

Mind you, since they are no longer being published, the prices have been slowly creeping up. Still typically less than the cover price though, except in the case of some of the rarer ones.

[Gamer Girl]

I've heard the same thing from Game Stores in my area. WotC does not want to old stuff on the shelf.

You can't even hardly find D&D stuff( even 4E) at the big bookstores anymore like Borders. Just a couple years ago they had a role-playing isle, now they have a couple D&D books under the graphic novel shelf.

[grimbold]

If you don't mind used copies, I recommend Amazon.com. You can usually find them.

Mind you, since they are no longer being published, the prices have been slowly creeping up. Still typically less than the cover price though, except in the case of some of the rarer ones.

agreed
its unfortunate that they force you into buying a single edition though
i am not saying this as a criticism of 4th ed but rather the WotC system in general
this is just as how when 3.0 came out you could no longer purchase AD&D stuff :(

[MerlinTheWizard]

This strategy seems like it would just increase piracy to me. So many people pirated 3.5 books while they were on sale. Now we can't even buy them, which is only going to give people more reason to seek them online. Why buy all the 4th edition core books when you can have the entire 3.5 set for free?

[Sarco_Phage]

This strategy seems like it would just increase piracy to me. So many people pirated 3.5 books while they were on sale. Now we can't even buy them, which is only going to give people more reason to seek them online. Why buy all the 4th edition core books when you can have the entire 3.5 set for free?

Also, people pirate the 4th ed books en masse. Just sayin'.

I must admit, I'm mildly miffed at his current state of affairs. It's like they lack confidence in their flagship product, thinking that people would rather buy the older sourcebook than the new. Granted this means that many new players go for 4e first, but then that's what would have happened anyway. :roy:

[Rappy]

You can't even hardly find D&D stuff( even 4E) at the big bookstores anymore like Borders. Just a couple years ago they had a role-playing isle, now they have a couple D&D books under the graphic novel shelf.

This is true. Not too long ago, I was at a two-story tall book store in my state's capital city, and I looked on the second floor for the RPG section. It was basically two half-rows of 4E books wedged beside sci-fi novels, and a few World of Darkness and Pathfinder titles stuck in the very bottom.

[Kurald Galain]

I must admit, I'm mildly miffed at his current state of affairs. It's like they lack confidence in their flagship product,
D&D isn't WOTC's flagship product, though.

[Sarco_Phage]

D&D isn't WOTC's flagship product, though.

For that particular line. 4E is like the Cheeseburger of WotC's Mcdonalds.

[EccentricCircle]

In Wizards of the Coast's defence I think its as much about not confusing new players as it is about trying to make money.
You've heard of this thing called D&D and go along to your book shop, you find a book that says Players Handbook, and on the back it also says that you need a monster manual and the DMG.
no imagine getting home and discovering that there are multiple editions of the game and you have a 4th ed players handbook, a 3.5 monster book and the DM's guide from AD&D 1st edition.
we can all tell the difference, a new player could certainly work it out or the shop owner could advise them. but by trying to ensure that only the latest edition is on the shelf Wizards ensure that they are selling a uniform product line and that people are all reading from the same page.

I prefer 3.5 and agree that they should still support past editions as there is definitely a market for it. but I can see why they don't want those books on the shelves.

Now if they were to have a mail order service where you could buy some sort of "Legacy edition" of old sourcebooks ( albeit at a higher price to cover the printing costs for a small but continuous run) then I think they could make money out of it. I'd pay good money for a brand new copy of the original rulebooks by Gary Gygax just out of curiosity to see how it all began, i'm sure other people would too and I know a lot of people who wouldn't mind getting 3rd ed PHB's.

its a shame no one at wizards has thought of this. or that they've decided against it if they have.

[Gamer Girl]

In Wizards of the Coast's defence I think its as much about not confusing new players as it is about trying to make money.
You've heard of this thing called D&D and go along to your book shop, you find a book that says Players Handbook, and on the back it also says that you need a monster manual and the DMG....imagine getting home and discovering that there are multiple editions of the game and you have a 4th ed players handbook, a 3.5 monster book and the DM's guide from AD&D 1st edition.


I can tell you, as someone who works at a company, that the company would not care that this happened. The company folks would just laugh about it, all the way to the back to deposit the money you just gave them. A company does not care what products of theirs you buy, as long as you buy their product.

Now they might be worried about sales figures. If 30 people buy a 4E book and 45 people buy a 3E book, then the 4E books sales will look 'low'. And after all if the other 45 people had bought a 4E book, they would have sold 75 books! At least to their way of thinking.

[Sarco_Phage]

Now they might be worried about sales figures. If 30 people buy a 4E book and 45 people buy a 3E book, then the 4E books sales will look 'low'. And after all if the other 45 people had bought a 4E book, they would have sold 75 books! At least to their way of thinking.

I work in a different area of the corporate world (useless gopher/gruntwork, pure low level white collar stuff), but this seems to square pretty well with what I know of Sales.

[Shpadoinkle]

I can tell you, as someone who works at a company, that the company would not care that this happened. The company folks would just laugh about it, all the way to the back to deposit the money you just gave them. A company does not care what products of theirs you buy, as long as you buy their product.

Now they might be worried about sales figures. If 30 people buy a 4E book and 45 people buy a 3E book, then the 4E books sales will look 'low'. And after all if the other 45 people had bought a 4E book, they would have sold 75 books! At least to their way of thinking.

Except they DID sell 75 books. I know the point you're making is that their way of thinking doesn't make any sense, I'm just saying.

But yeah, this is more about WotC wanting to make people buy their new stuff instead of their older stuff, because it's easier to turn out books for the new stuff and the fact that it's easier to support one product line than two. Despite the fact that maybe half the people who were happy with 3.Xe still play it, or have moved on to Pathfinder instead of 4e.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I really, really hate WotC's line of thinking. I bought 4e books, thinking they were the only books, then it turned out they weren't. And all my friends play 3.5. So after buying six 4e books, I learned about 3.5. And 4e books cost a lot.

[Sarco_Phage]

I really, really hate WotC's line of thinking. I bought 4e books, thinking they were the only books, then it turned out they weren't. And all my friends play 3.5. So after buying six 4e books, I learned about 3.5. And 4e books cost a lot.

It must have something to do with the fact that their premier product for a long time was Magic. This being a game that was often played in tournaments for srs bzns, every rule change would invalidate previous incarnations of the rules and every bit of errata would take certain cards out of the game entirely (remember when they banned the Serra Angel?), making previous blocks effectively replace other ones.

However, DnD is by no means a competitive tournament game, meaning that this mindset does not fit.

[SmartAlec]

There's probably only a certain amount of printing they can have done, or want to have done. They'd be trying to phase out 3.X to make room on the presses as 4 gets more and more stuff.

[ClockShock]

I really, really hate WotC's line of thinking. I bought 4e books, thinking they were the only books, then it turned out they weren't. And all my friends play 3.5. So after buying six 4e books, I learned about 3.5. And 4e books cost a lot.

So... you didn't talk to your friends first?

[Sarco_Phage]

There's probably only a certain amount of printing they can have done, or want to have done. They'd be trying to phase out 3.X to make room on the presses as 4 gets more and more stuff.

That could be part of it, but as I mentioned earlier that apparently WotC has issued a standing moratorium on sales of 3.X books.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So... you didn't talk to your friends first?

No, because I didn't know they played dnd.

[Fax Celestis]

That could be part of it, but as I mentioned earlier that apparently WotC has issued a standing moratorium on sales of 3.X books.

...of which they don't really have any means of maintaining, short of threat of no 4e sales. A retailer buys the product from the manufacturer, and at that point it is theirs (barring specific circumstances where the retailer is really a show room and the product is still the manufacturer's, but sufficient to say with something as simple as books this never happens). The retailer can do what they see fit with it.

What WotC can do is say that they won't sell them any 4e material if they continue to sell 3.5e. Which is legit, since it's not monopolizing a market by excluding other companies (ie: WotC can't say "We won't sell you 4e material if you sell Pathfinder"), but since the only person being kicked in the teeth is the consumer, it's fine. Coupled with a halt of 3.5e production, a retailer can continue to sell 3.5e, but the chances of them being able to maintain a standing inventory are small, while their ability to maintain a sizable 4e inventory is ensured.

[Yora]

Stores here in germany still have their old stocks on the shelves, right next to the 4th Ed. stuff.

[Sarco_Phage]

Stores here in germany still have their old stocks on the shelves, right next to the 4th Ed. stuff.

Well, I'm just going to stand here and grumble at how fortunate you are.

:xykon: Grumble.

All the books I have acquired so far are secondhand. :smallbiggrin:

[RTGoodman]

I don't know where you are, but the FLGS in my town that still has A LOT of 3.x stuff* and still sell it occasionally. They're also a WotC premier store (or whatever the term is), and they haven't said anything about not being allowed to do it. (One of my players is the owner/manager, so I'd imagine I might have heard something about it.)

*Of course, most of it is a dozens of copies of Five Nations, miscellaneous Eberron stuff, half a dozen of every MM except the first, and a few other things that weren't even popular DURING 3.x (Ghostwalk, Weapons of Legacy, etc.).

[Yora]

Well, I'm just going to stand here and grumble at how fortunate you are.
Not really. All the good stuff has been sold years ago. Now all that's left are Castles Builder Guidebook and Masters of the Wild. :smallbiggrin:

Though I did find the KotOR sourcebook for Star Wars Saga after it was out of print and prices on ebay were ridiculous.

[Noneoyabizzness]

I can tell you, as someone who works at a company, that the company would not care that this happened. The company folks would just laugh about it, all the way to the back to deposit the money you just gave them. A company does not care what products of theirs you buy, as long as you buy their product.

Now they might be worried about sales figures. If 30 people buy a 4E book and 45 people buy a 3E book, then the 4E books sales will look 'low'. And after all if the other 45 people had bought a 4E book, they would have sold 75 books! At least to their way of thinking.

Except if the customer feels robbed buying 3 incompatible books they won't buy the revenue stream that is the splatbook.

[Fax Celestis]

I don't know where you are, but the FLGS in my town that still has A LOT of 3.x stuff* and still sell it occasionally. They're also a WotC premier store (or whatever the term is), and they haven't said anything about not being allowed to do it. (One of my players is the owner/manager, so I'd imagine I might have heard something about it.)

WotC is perfectly capable of setting different standards per store. Happens all the time.

[The Glyphstone]

Not really. All the good stuff has been sold years ago. Now all that's left are Castles Builder Guidebook and Masters of the Wild. :smallbiggrin:

Though I did find the KotOR sourcebook for Star Wars Saga after it was out of print and prices on ebay were ridiculous.

Hey, the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook is one of the greatest books ever printed for the 3.x line.:smallbiggrin:

[SurlySeraph]

This strategy seems like it would just increase piracy to me. So many people pirated 3.5 books while they were on sale. Now we can't even buy them, which is only going to give people more reason to seek them online. Why buy all the 4th edition core books when you can have the entire 3.5 set for free?

Yeah, this. Anytime I google a 3.5 book name looking for reviews or discussion, I get a bunch of hits for illegal downloads, so I surmise that piracy of 3.5 books isn't rare. If your biggest competitor is your own last edition, that's perfectly fine. You still get money when people buy it. If people want it and can't buy it, and don't buy 4E instead because they can illegally acquire 3.5, you don't get their money.

And their second biggest competitor is Pathfinder, which is literally a set of 3.5 houserules, and is perfectly compatible with non-core 3.5. So it makes all the sense in the world to keep selling 3.5 books to draw from Paizo's customers.

[HenryHankovitch]

WotC is perfectly capable of setting different standards per store. Happens all the time.

It's far easier to believe that the store owner described in the OP is lying, than that WOTC has some sort of bizarre and ineffectual policy of compelling some stores in some markets from selling a product which they don't even produce any more, despite having no legal or contractual ability to set such a policy.

I'm hardly a researcher on the subject, but out of the 4 or 5 gamestores I've been to in the last couple years, all of them had 3.5E stock on the shelves; either used buy-backs, or old-ass overstock.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's far easier to believe that the store owner described in the OP is lying, than that WOTC has some sort of bizarre and ineffectual policy of compelling some stores in some markets from selling a product which they don't even produce any more, despite having no legal or contractual ability to set such a policy.

My gaming store doesn't sell 3.5 either.

[ScionoftheVoid]

It's far easier to believe that the store owner described in the OP is lying, than that WOTC has some sort of bizarre and ineffectual policy of compelling some stores in some markets from selling a product which they don't even produce any more, despite having no legal or contractual ability to set such a policy.

I'm hardly a researcher on the subject, but out of the 4 or 5 gamestores I've been to in the last couple years, all of them had 3.5E stock on the shelves; either used buy-backs, or old-ass overstock.

I've heard of this policy before, so I don't think its existence should be discounted. I think it's likely that WotC has such a policy, but shops looking into it might find that they can't actually enforce it well or at all, and carry on selling the last of their 3.5 stock regardless.

[prufock]

The 2 locally-owned stores in my area still have some leftover 3.5 stock, as well as used material (even 1st and 2nd editions). Only problem is they don't have a lot of selection, since it's just leftover stock.

The chain stores here only stock 4e.

But it's really not a big deal, you can find the books used in many places, especially online, and often for cheaper (at least until they become "collector's items" down the road).

[HenryHankovitch]

My gaming store doesn't sell 3.5 either.

And?

Did he do it because he thinks he can do better business with another product on the shelf space? Does he do it because 3.5 isn't being printed any more, and he can't stock the core product without paying retail price for it on the used-book market? Does he do it because he arbitrarily decided he wasn't going to sell a "dead game" any more? Or did he do it because WOTC sent a Man In Black to tell him that they heard he sold a copy of Monster Manual 3.5 they'd take away his Magic cards?

I'm just going with Occam's Razor here. We have people telling third-hand stories about things that companies may have done which don't even make sense at face value. You hear these kinds of stories all the time: they're called urban legends. If someone has any basis for actually believing that WOTC goes around blackballing retailers who carry 3E stuff, I'd hear it out. But all we have here is the same old EVIL WOTC PLOTTING AGAINST US crap that's beein flying around since 4E came out.

[Fax Celestis]

And?

Did he do it because he thinks he can do better business with another product on the shelf space? Does he do it because 3.5 isn't being printed any more, and he can't stock the core product without paying retail price for it on the used-book market? Does he do it because he arbitrarily decided he wasn't going to sell a "dead game" any more? Or did he do it because WOTC sent a Man In Black to tell him that they heard he sold a copy of Monster Manual 3.5 they'd take away his Magic cards?

I'm just going with Occam's Razor here. We have people telling third-hand stories about things that companies may have done which don't even make sense at face value. You hear these kinds of stories all the time: they're called urban legends. If someone has any basis for actually believing that WOTC goes around blackballing retailers who carry 3E stuff, I'd hear it out. But all we have here is the same old EVIL WOTC PLOTTING AGAINST US crap that's beein flying around since 4E came out.

When the person in question says "The producer of this product told me I can't sell it anymore", he's either an idiot, a poor liar, or was actually informed that he can't sell it anymore. And the only leverage that WotC has for option C is refusal to let him carry other WotC products.

[Sarco_Phage]

I'm just going with Occam's Razor here. We have people telling third-hand stories about things that companies may have done which don't even make sense at face value. You hear these kinds of stories all the time: they're called urban legends. If someone has any basis for actually believing that WOTC goes around blackballing retailers who carry 3E stuff, I'd hear it out. But all we have here is the same old EVIL WOTC PLOTTING AGAINST US crap that's beein flying around since 4E came out.

Hey man, my story is firsthand. :redcloak:

[Talakeal]

I doubt stores are forbidden from selling new 3.5 books, but that wouldn't actually surprise me, I know Games Workshop has all sorts of crazy restrictions on how you can sell their products and won't sell to those who violate them.

I remember when TSR went out of business they blamed having split the brand so many times. Instead of just "D&D players" they had Forgotten Realms Players, and Dragonlance Players, and Planescape Players, and Greyhawk Players, and half a dozen other niches. They felt that their clients only had so much money to spend on gaming books, and by printing so many exclusive books that only appealed to a small portion of their customers they were wasting a ton of development and printing costs versus selling one or two books that every customer would by. I imagine WOTC feels the same way about selling multiple editions.

Still, I can't help but feel that is they really wanted to not divide the players they would have made 4th edition a simple revision of the game as all previous editions had been rather than an entirely new game with many of the same themes as they did. I know I personally was turned off the game as were most of my friends, and many of the users on this forum.

[Kilbourne]

Hey all!

I actually work at a Friendly Local Gaming Store, and let me tell you all about that!


So, WoTC. They give us some perks for running the D&D Encounters every week (the real bonus is that it's fun and gets us some new customers most days). We also get lots of great product and promotional material from them, depending on what sort of stuff we're selling for them. We also do a good amount of MTG events, mostly because one of our staff is very involved with that and does a good card-singles trade.

However, we also sell many other RPGs, and are definitely not WoTC-exclusive. Pathfinder is one of our big sellers, as is the Warhammer Fantasy RP, followed by WoD, Exalted, L5R, GURPS and 40k RPG.

In terms of the divide from 4e to 3.5e: we sell used RPG books, of any type. People bring in their old books and we give them a store credit for it, and then sell the used book back out at a much reduced price, free of tax. We're getting less and less 3.5e stuff now, as it is no longer produced by the publisher (WoTC) and those people who are buying 3.5e are usually keeping it. For an idea of how it's priced, most of the core books sell for 20$ flat, with the splatbooks from 10-15$

Interestingly, there are a couple of 4e books on the used shelf now, too. So it's not as if that's being excluded from that either.



So, yeah. Just to give you an idea of what that's like from a sellers point of view.

[stainboy]

Is it possible that different WotC representatives say different things? It sounds like there's no policy of refusing to ship to a store that sells 3.5 stuff, but some store owners might have been told something that implied such a policy.

There was that clause in the 2007 GSL forbidding 3rd party publishers from also supporting 3.5 (or any open game content at all), so we know WotC is willing to twist arms to kill 3.5.

[Kurald Galain]

It's far easier to believe that the store owner described in the OP is lying, than that WOTC has some sort of bizarre and ineffectual policy of compelling some stores in some markets from selling a product which they don't even produce any more, despite having no legal or contractual ability to set such a policy.
But they absolutely have the ability to set such a policy. They can make bookstores sign an agreement before they sell anything, and they can decide to cut off bookstores that don't comply. Corporate politics goes a long way; it doesn't matter whether it's legally enforceable, as long as it's practically enforceable through pressure.

[flabort]

Hey all!

I actually work at a Friendly Local Gaming Store, and let me tell you all about that!

<snip>

So, yeah. Just to give you an idea of what that's like from a sellers point of view.

So WotC for sure didn't actually say "Don't sell 3.5" to you. Apparently, you even still do, although only rarely.
That doesn't sound promising for the "WotC has MiB!" theory, but lack of positive evidence isn't negative evidence. We can only prove that it's true, or say our results are "inconclusive".
Saying "We haven't been told that, it must be false" is like saying "If it's flat chested, it's a guy". Well, it could be a young girl, and in the same way your story could just mean they only target some stores.

Now..... I forgot my original point. I've concluded one point, but I forgot why I posted in the first place. :smallredface:

[Kilbourne]

So WotC for sure didn't actually say "Don't sell 3.5" to you. Apparently, you even still do, although only rarely.
That doesn't sound promising for the "WotC has MiB!" theory, but lack of positive evidence isn't negative evidence. We can only prove that it's true, or say our results are "inconclusive". ... Now..... I forgot my original point. I've concluded one point, but I forgot why I posted in the first place. :smallredface:

That's essentially it. Basically the situation is that WoTC does not produced 3.5 material anymore, so it's not like we're getting any new stuff from them (or anyone). The only 3.5 trade is the used trade, and not everyone does that.

[Kyberwulf]

I think one of the Major reasons behind the big push to keep 4e, is the accesories. I am not talking about the books. I am talking about the 4.0 mini's. The Powercards, the 4e Adventure things. And the books .... lol.. >.>
everytime i go to a gaming store i hear of about.. 3 or for new books/ 4e stuff coming out.

[The Glyphstone]

Yet for some reason they canceled the D&D Minis line. Blargh.

[Kyberwulf]

thats easy. they fired the designers for D&D minis. and gave you ways to create your own power cards. so you can make your own minis.. all so they could keep the money they would have to pay the designers lol >.>

[The Glyphstone]

I'm pretty sure the revenue stream from selling the miniatures was more than it cost them to pay the designers - so your theory that it's all about the accessories gets shaky.

[Sarco_Phage]

Still, I can see where this would go. The best way to maximize revenue is to create peripherals which are "necessary" for the full game experience.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, so cutting off their in-house supply of said peripherals and encouraging/forcing players to make their own or [LE GASP] buy them from other companies is very counterintuitive.

[Sarco_Phage]

Le gasp indeed.

Why WOULD they cancel something like that? Perhaps no one was buying their minis?

[Mando Knight]

For that particular line. 4E is like the Cheeseburger of WotC's Mcdonalds.

Everyone knows that you go to McDonald's for the fries... :smalltongue:

[flabort]

It's the Double-Double of Tim Hortons, then. :smalltongue:
3.5 was the cream-supreme donut.

[Melayl]

go to www.barnesandnoble.com and search "dungeons and dragons" under Books, then sort by Release Date, and start at the last page.

3.5 material for at least 2 1/2 pages (almost all used, I think, but still there).

Good luck!

[Hiro Protagonest]

go to www.barnesandnoble.com and search "dungeons and dragons" under Books, then sort by Release Date, and start at the last page.

3.5 material for at least 2 1/2 pages (almost all used, I think, but still there).

Good luck!

It's only 4e at the Barnes and Noble around here.

[Innis Cabal]

For that particular line. 4E is like the Cheeseburger of WotC's Mcdonalds.

No it's not. It's like the McChicken. Magic The Gathering has always been their cheeseburger.

[LordZarth]

I'm tempted to agree with what has been said above. There are people who will buy 3.x books, and there are people who will pirate them. In my experience, these groups very rarely change. All this will really do is drive those who would've bought to pirate.

[Melayl]

It's only 4e at the Barnes and Noble around here.

In the physical store, yes. Online, however, is a different matter. Only 4E at our local BN as well.

[Sarco_Phage]

Everyone knows that you go to McDonald's for the fries... :smalltongue:

No, MtG is the fries.:smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

No, MtG is the fries.:smalltongue:

Exactly. And WotC knows it.

[YouLostMe]

4e is more like the frozen coffee you get at McDonald's...

[Sarco_Phage]

We're referring to product push, not (perceived) quality.:smallbiggrin:

[LansXero]

We're referring to product push, not (perceived) quality.:smallbiggrin:

M:TG is a lot more pushed than their roleplaying line, I think.

[tcrudisi]

It's a purely business decision. Would WotC be able to sell enough copies of 3.5 to warrant another printing? I don't think so. When an average consumer purchases something, they want the newest thing on the market. That's 4e. Yes, there are people who prefer the classics (3.5 in this example), but there aren't enough of them to warrant another print of 3.5.

Yes, there will be lots of gamers who want the 3.5 books, but WotC needs to generate new customers in order to grow and survive. There aren't enough gamers who begin playing 3.5 to warrant printing a whole slew of books. Most of the older gamers already own the books and many of the new ones will go the cheapest route: amazon or buying second-hand. The market for new 3.5 books is just much, much smaller than with 4e.

WotC is a business. They will (try to) act in their own self-interest. This includes both profitability and thinking long-term. Printing off a huge run of 3.5 books just won't be profitable. Add in the competition from Pathfinder and you've got the makings of a very, very bad business decision should WotC decide to do another run of 3.5.

[LansXero]

It's a purely business decision. They will (try to) act in their own self-interest. This includes both profitability and thinking long-term.

Then what would be so terribly expensive or unprofittable about selling off their already existing stock of 3.5 books, or use their files to put paid -pdfs up for download on their website?

[NNescio]

Then what would be so terribly expensive or unprofittable about selling off their already existing stock of 3.5 books, or use their files to put paid -pdfs up for download on their website?

Self competition? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-competition#Product_self-competition)

[tcrudisi]

Then what would be so terribly expensive or unprofittable about selling off their already existing stock of 3.5 books, or use their files to put paid -pdfs up for download on their website?

NNescio already said one thing. Another is that they want to keep their current customers. I'm not saying 4e is a superior product, but it's certainly an easier one to learn for new customers. Difficulty has to be factored in when deciding which product is more likely to lead to consumer retention. They want their customers to be around for D&D 5. Starting at 3rd ed. and never jumping to 4th means they aren't likely to make the jump to 5 either.

And, I'm a bit skeptical that they even have much of a 3.5 stock left. They probably already used it as a tax write-off and got rid of it. On the off-chance they haven't gotten rid of it, they would have to pay the government back to be able to sell their own product. Combine this with a very weak demand, plus the fact they are selling short-run instead of long-run (by attempting to get permanent customers) and it adds up to a very bad business decision to sell 3.5 physical product.

[stainboy]

@tcrudisi: I'm not sure if you're trying to defend WotC or just explain their motives, but I really don't care whether they were "right" or not. It doesn't matter.

We don't know what WotC has done to stop sales of 3.5 (and from this thread it looks like not much if anything). But we do know they've backed down from open gaming, failed to publish a functional fansite policy, and included language in the original GSL aimed at killing 3rd party support for any open game content (including 3.5).

If they believed that these were the correct decisions, fine, but I want those to be the incorrect decisions and I can make them 0.00001% more incorrect by not giving WotC any more money.

[tcrudisi]

@tcrudisi: I'm not sure if you're trying to defend WotC or just explain their motives, but I really don't care whether they were "right" or not. It doesn't matter.

We don't know what WotC has done to stop sales of 3.5 (and from this thread it looks like not much if anything). But we do know they've backed down from open gaming, failed to publish a functional fansite policy, and included language in the original GSL aimed at killing 3rd party support for any open game content (including 3.5).

If they believed that these were the correct decisions, fine, but I want those to be the incorrect decisions and I can make them 0.00001% more incorrect by not giving WotC any more money.

A bit of both? A business has to make a profit to stay in business. Every decision it makes will be for profit-maximizing purposes. Sometimes it is better to take a short-term loss if it means long-run profits.

However, there is still a thing called business ethics. Long-term, it is a bad strategy to have poor business ethics. It will come back to haunt you as word leaks.

Backing down from open gaming and killing 3rd party support is just a way for them to maximize profits. WotC is in this business to make money. How can they make money if they only publish the core books and let everyone else do the supplements? (Actually, they could make money that way, just not nearly as much.) You may not like their decisions, but they will do what they have to do to make a profit (and therefore stay in business to make future editions of D&D). WotC ran a cost-benefit analysis when they changed the model from 3.5 to 4e. They knew some customers would dislike their new policies. They don't make any decision without weighing the pros and cons and running the estimated numbers. I'm not saying that you refusing to buy their product is inconsequential, but frankly, they knew they would lose some customers. But they gained a lot, lot more by making customers come to them for supplemental materials instead of someone else.

[Amiel]

Have you also considered WotC's policies may be dictated to them from on high? In this case, from Hasbro. As a subsidiary of a largely soulless conglomeration, the bottom line is that WotC's profit margins need to meet a specific quota. Whether the company does this in a consumer-friendly manner is immaterial. It is unfortunate they are a business first and foremost.

[stainboy]

frankly, they knew they would lose some customers. But they gained a lot, lot more by making customers come to them for supplemental materials instead of someone else.

I can see how that makes sense in theory, but I don't think it worked. As far as anyone can tell 4e isn't the market-dominating juggernaut that past editions have been, and hasn't sold as well as 3e did.

There could be several reasons for that, but at the very least if 4e had been an open game it might not be competing with Pathfinder. (For whatever portion of the market is claimed by Pathfinder, which is probably relatively small but nontrivial.)

[Eldan]

Are there actually any numbers on that? I've seen the claim before, but never any numbers to back it up. Sales, profits, anything.

[Skaven]

How can they stop them selling their stock? Is that legal?

I would assume that the store owned the stock they bought from WOTC and could sell it?

[EccentricCircle]

if D&D is a burger and Magic the Gathering is the fries then what is the plastic toy you get in a kids meal?
if we're going to do silly analogies we need all the answers!

[stainboy]

Random minis booster packs?

[Gamer Girl]

Backing down from open gaming and killing 3rd party support is just a way for them to maximize profits. WotC is in this business to make money. How can they make money if they only publish the core books and let everyone else do the supplements?

I just don't get WotC lack of support for D&D. 3E got off to a good start, and they published hardcover books, softcover books and had two magazines. They published Core books, rule books, world books, books for each campaigner world and even adventures.

But by the time 3.5E came around, WotC thought the best way to make money was to not sell any stuff. They cut back on everything, except one or two hardcover rule books every quarter.

And it would have been so simple for them, after all lots of other publishers had the right idea:the small, soft cover books. Each on one topic. Other publishers made books for each class, each race, each school of magic. WotC just sat back and made one hardcover about elves and then said 'oh we need never publish' another elf book.

And why no adventures? First the easy thing to do would be to reprint all the old adventures. And WotC did start to do that, with Keep on the Borderlands, but then they went off the deep end and only made the 'big hard cover old adventures redo ones'. Of course, plenty of other publishers stepped up and printed the old adventures.

I guess it's the class money problem: WotC was so excited that they might make millions when everyone payed $40(!) for the new hard cover, that they could not quite do the math of lets see one soft cover book per school of magic at $9 times eight equals $72.

[LansXero]

Speaking of WotC support, Its even more surprising when you consider what a solid, cohesive infraestructure M:TG has, from sanctioned play to stimulus for shops and tourney organizers to material, etc.

[Sarco_Phage]

Well, WotC does sponsor the DnD Encounters sessions most FLGSs run...

[Bagelz]

I think a lot of you have some misunderstandings about how retail works.
if a 3.x book is sold now, WotC will see no money from it.
They have already sold that book to the vendor (bookstore or gamingstore) and have made their money off of it. They don't have a warehouse full of 3.x books that they are not selling.
Any 3.x wotc published books that are sold INSTEAD of 4e books will turn into lost profit because the store owners will not need to order more 4e books.

Now your store owners own the old books they still have in stock, and wotc can't legally stop them from selling them, but they can make it more difficult to sanction events, or get their new magic card cases quickly, and be an overall pain.

my local gaming store still sells what little 3.x and pathfinder stuff he has left, but its apparently hard to get pathfinder books if you don't order very large quantities.

[Tyndmyr]

I can see how that makes sense in theory, but I don't think it worked. As far as anyone can tell 4e isn't the market-dominating juggernaut that past editions have been, and hasn't sold as well as 3e did.

There could be several reasons for that, but at the very least if 4e had been an open game it might not be competing with Pathfinder. (For whatever portion of the market is claimed by Pathfinder, which is probably relatively small but nontrivial.)

From everything I can tell, 4e is decent. Some prefer it over 3.5, some prefer 3.5 over it. On the larger scale, about 50/50. I see pathfinder campaigns about equal in number to 3.5 campaigns, and market penetration is about equal. Hell, I see pathfinder books right next to D&D 4e books at Books a Million in the mall.

Right now, the Pathfinder Core rulebook is at around the 3,000 mark in books total, and #8 in books/sci fi & fantasy/gaming. The most recent pathfinder book is #1 in that category, and a D&D 4e book is #2. There are more 4e books in that category than Pathfinder books, but there's no obvious spread between their sales. Note that this ranking IS calculated using national bestseller lists.

Pathfinder is not small and non-trivial. The market has been split.

For WoTC, on a strategic level, this is certainly a bad thing.

[The Big Dice]

And why no adventures? First the easy thing to do would be to reprint all the old adventures. And WotC did start to do that, with Keep on the Borderlands, but then they went off the deep end and only made the 'big hard cover old adventures redo ones'. Of course, plenty of other publishers stepped up and printed the old adventures.
Modules don't sell well enough to be worth the time and money spent on them. They have a more intensive development cycle than books because they need to be designed to work with an unknown party composition. They also cost the same as a book to print and distribute, but on average they'll only be bought by one person in each gaming group.

So they end up costing more to develop than a book overall, and they have much more limited appeal.

Of course a smaller company using an online distribution model can do more with modules, but there aren't many of them and the market could get saturated pretty easily.

[Tyndmyr]

While that is almost certainly correct, I'd argue that modules help support the rest of the sales. Most GMs I know have bought at least some modules for games they play, even if they mostly run homebrewed stuff. They're also quite handy for organized play, at cons and things.

And, one of the critical steps to people buying your stuff is to get people playing it. It doesn't matter how good it is if nobody plays it.

Note that pathfinder IS pushing the adventure path thing pretty hard.

[The Big Dice]

While that is almost certainly correct, I'd argue that modules help support the rest of the sales. Most GMs I know have bought at least some modules for games they play, even if they mostly run homebrewed stuff. They're also quite handy for organized play, at cons and things.

And, one of the critical steps to people buying your stuff is to get people playing it. It doesn't matter how good it is if nobody plays it.

Note that pathfinder IS pushing the adventure path thing pretty hard.
Why do you think that very few games companies do modules these days? Those that do can afford to publish them as loss leaders these days. Seriously, if there was money in it, all those cottage industry game companies that are around. The ones that you think are big, but that don't actually have full time employees* would be doing it.

*Specifically I mean AEG here, but there are plenty of companies at around the same size. Shawn Carman is a special needs teacher, Nancy Sauer is (I believe) a baker and I forget what Fred Wan's day job is. And these are three of the main story contributors to the L5R CCG.

Only WotC can afford to have full time writers on it's staff these days.

[Tyndmyr]

I wouldn't hold up AEG as a model of how to conduct business.

Seriously, they killed 7th Sea, and refused to even negotiate with anyone to sell the rights. They won't publish it, and they won't sell it.

They could reprint the old books now, exactly as they were, and make bundles, because so many of the used prices are well in excess of the new, but they don't.

My conclusion is that they're terrible at making money.

Edit: They didn't even maintain their site for 7th Sea. So, now it's a giant link farm for spam. Yet, they still link to it from all over their main site.

[Zuljita]

It's far easier to believe that the store owner described in the OP is lying, than that WOTC has some sort of bizarre and ineffectual policy of compelling some stores in some markets from selling a product which they don't even produce any more, despite having no legal or contractual ability to set such a policy.

I'm also no expert on WOTC's practices but i do know that when i worked in electronics sales 1 rep from HP would"encourage sales of a particular product with free swag whereas a different rep would encourage other products. I can see different reps seeing the importance of getting 3.5 off the shelf differently.

[Sipex]

I think a lot of you have some misunderstandings about how retail works.
if a 3.x book is sold now, WotC will see no money from it.
They have already sold that book to the vendor (bookstore or gamingstore) and have made their money off of it. They don't have a warehouse full of 3.x books that they are not selling.
Any 3.x wotc published books that are sold INSTEAD of 4e books will turn into lost profit because the store owners will not need to order more 4e books.

Now your store owners own the old books they still have in stock, and wotc can't legally stop them from selling them, but they can make it more difficult to sanction events, or get their new magic card cases quickly, and be an overall pain.

my local gaming store still sells what little 3.x and pathfinder stuff he has left, but its apparently hard to get pathfinder books if you don't order very large quantities.

This man is exactly right. This isn't an issue of WOTC saying "You can't sell 3.5 stuff anymore." it's them saying "We're not producing it anymore so you can't order it to sell."

[Tyndmyr]

I'm also no expert on WOTC's practices but i do know that when i worked in electronics sales 1 rep from HP would"encourage sales of a particular product with free swag whereas a different rep would encourage other products. I can see different reps seeing the importance of getting 3.5 off the shelf differently.

Well, booksellers typically buy back unsold books...and WOTC would not wish this to happen...but it's not worthwhile for most gaming stores to engage in that. They know someone'll eventually buy the book anyway. So, in practice, the 3.5 books unsold are gonna sit on the shelf till someone buys them.

This is what'll happen no matter how much effort WOTC puts into promoting them. So, the logical choice is "none". That, I completely understand, and have no issues with.

I do wish they still sold old rulebooks by internet/mail order, but I understand the desire to avoid market fragmentation. Problem is...they already have market fragmentation, between 4e and pathfinder. This is even worse. So...a split between 3.5 and 4e would have been better. At least, then all money would have been going to Wotc. Too late for that now, though.

[The Big Dice]

I wouldn't hold up AEG as a model of how to conduct business.

Seriously, they killed 7th Sea, and refused to even negotiate with anyone to sell the rights. They won't publish it, and they won't sell it.

They could reprint the old books now, exactly as they were, and make bundles, because so many of the used prices are well in excess of the new, but they don't.

My conclusion is that they're terrible at making money.
Actually, they were bought out by WotC because LEgend of the Five Rings was the biggest competition Magic: The Gathering had at the time. 7th Sea then became Swashbuckling Adventures, L5R switched to the Dual Stat line of books and the whole lot ran into coypright issues because of the Spirit Wars storyline.

AEG aren't a roleplaying game company. They are actually a CCG company that has a couple of sidelines, most of which got stopped when WotC dropped them like a hot potato and the Alderac Entertainment Group bought back their licenses. Their money comes from them having the second biggest CCG on the market and their RPG lines are very much an afterthought.

I'm also fairly sure that there's a right issue with 7th Sea, AEG having the rights to the system and John Wick having the rights to everything else. And like Legend of the Burning Sands, it's not as lucrative a line as you might think. Demand on ebay doesn't mean demand in stores.

[Erom]

Considering how 4e and now 4ee have been marketed, I really thought it was all about the accessories. Minis critical for play. The new chance cards. The monthly ddi subscriptions... etc etc etc.

And then they went and cancelled the minis line.

That still totally baffles me.

[Sipex]

Yeah, minis really gets me. Why did they make a mini critical game and then remove them? They've been able to sell minis throughout the entire life of the other less mini-dependant editions.

If they increased the cost, why not just go back to pewter?

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, they were bought out by WotC because LEgend of the Five Rings was the biggest competition Magic: The Gathering had at the time. 7th Sea then became Swashbuckling Adventures, L5R switched to the Dual Stat line of books and the whole lot ran into coypright issues because of the Spirit Wars storyline.

L5R issues /= 7th Sea issues. It doesn't have Spirit Wars stuff, and the D20 stuff used in the dual stat books(the early Swashbuckling adv books) was all SRD stuff, at most. So, no licensing issues there.


AEG aren't a roleplaying game company. They are actually a CCG company that has a couple of sidelines, most of which got stopped when WotC dropped them like a hot potato and the Alderac Entertainment Group bought back their licenses. Their money comes from them having the second biggest CCG on the market and their RPG lines are very much an afterthought.

It's apparent. They are terrible at managing roleplaying games.


I'm also fairly sure that there's a right issue with 7th Sea, AEG having the rights to the system and John Wick having the rights to everything else. And like Legend of the Burning Sands, it's not as lucrative a line as you might think. Demand on ebay doesn't mean demand in stores.

I cannot imagine what rights issue would allow them to reselling the pdfs online, but would not allow them to sell them in paper. Given that Wick wasn't even involved with all the books, I'm fairly confident it isn't that. I'm not aware of any problem with 7th Sea rights at all.

There is demand in stores. It is by far the most asked about system(that is so long out of print) I am aware of, and my local store that deals in used books asks from $60 to $150 per book. Now, sure...this demand isn't on pathfinder and 4e levels...but for AEG, it would almost certainly be significant. And, if they don't feel it could be profitable, why are they holding on to the rights? Selling the rights would seem to be an easy win in that situation.

[Cartigan]

Yeah, minis really gets me. Why did they make a mini critical game and then remove them? They've been able to sell minis throughout the entire life of the other less mini-dependant editions.

If they increased the cost, why not just go back to pewter?

A lot higher profit margin on the same shoddy, mass-produced plastic things being sold for roughly 5 times as much as previously.

Of course no rational person is going to buy them any more after that. "Let's increase the price 5 fold but not the production value."

If companies like Reaper didn't appeal to hobbyists, they would be out too.

[Tyndmyr]

A lot higher profit margin on the same shoddy, mass-produced plastic things being sold for roughly 5 times as much as previously.

Yeah, the D&D minis make me sad. The quality is terrible for the price. I either use mini's from other sources, like warhammer fantasy, or legos.

Note that the big pirate ship works fantastic with lego characters.

[Cartigan]

Yeah, the D&D minis make me sad. The quality is terrible for the price. I either use mini's from other sources, like warhammer fantasy, or legos.

Note that the big pirate ship works fantastic with lego characters.

Not that LEGO isn't shafting to you either, but at least they sell entertaining, high quality stuff.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, lego AND games workshop are both bloody expensive. But I'm ok with expensive provided I'm actually getting quality.

If I look at the minis and realize I'm better off browsing the childrens toy aisle at walmart, then I'm unhappy.

[Cartigan]

Seriously. You can either buy five plastic minis with power cards from WotC or three-five action figures from the toy aisle. And they probably shoot missiles or something.

[The Big Dice]

It's apparent. They are terrible at managing roleplaying games.
So terrible that they can sell books that have between 10% and 30% new content (4th edition L5R I'm looking at you) to people over and over again until the print runs dry up. That's terrible management but good brand loyalty combined with knowing your market.

[Tyndmyr]

That sounds more like luck. Well, that and good settings. A good setting gets people hooked, mechanics be damned.

Quality of setting appears to be the single biggest factor in the success of any roleplaying system. Well, after name brand. WoTC could probably have sold empty boxes labeled "D&D", and people would have bought piles, at least initially. But to GET to name brand level, you need a good setting.

I wouldn't really give them much credit at all for knowing their market, etc.

[Sarco_Phage]

That sounds more like luck. Well, that and good settings. A good setting gets people hooked, mechanics be damned.

Case in point: 40k.

Not that the setting is "good" by any means, but it is certainly entertaining. It's basically one of the biggest pastiche settings on the market right now, meaning there's a huge amount of appeal to different people.

[Tyndmyr]

Case in point: 40k.

Not that the setting is "good" by any means, but it is certainly entertaining. It's basically one of the biggest pastiche settings on the market right now, meaning there's a huge amount of appeal to different people.

Yup. For all the warts inherent with it, and the gaming systems built for it...I still kinda like the setting. It's got a heavy dose of awesome. And I won't lie, I've picked up the rogue trader books many a time. One day, I'll undoubtedly be unable to resist any longer.

[The Big Dice]

Case in point: 40k.

Not that the setting is "good" by any means, but it is certainly entertaining. It's basically one of the biggest pastiche settings on the market right now, meaning there's a huge amount of appeal to different people.
And of course GURPS. Not to mention D&D, possibly the biggest selling core RPG products of all time. A good setting can help,but it's certainly not the defining factor of a successful RPG.

[RandomNPC]

Yea. The local comic shop owner is a fan of getting a sale. If people want a window sticker with a symbol like Cobra, autobots, or gir from invader zim, and the company refuses to make the product, he finds the product for you anyway.

But 3.X D&D books? no sale. He's got a shelf PACKED with 2nd, and a few 1st books, a few old rifts, and a gamma world book here and there, but he seems afraid of selling 3.x books.

[Knaight]

And of course GURPS. Not to mention D&D, possibly the biggest selling core RPG products of all time. A good setting can help,but it's certainly not the defining factor of a successful RPG.

GURPS cleans up on their setting books, and they do a very good job. They have almost as much research as academic texts, are usually very accurate if historical and if not they are very well put together and consistent. As far as D&D goes, its been going on name brand it managed to pick up by its brief status as the only RPG, which won't happen again.

[Yora]

Her in Germany, DSA is huge. I'd say even much bigger than D&D. I've heard of some people playing Shadowrun and Vampire, but DSA and D&D have most of the market shared amongst them.
Which I think is quite substential here. At least at university the main problem is not so much not getting enough players, but groups getting too large pretty quickly.

[Kerrin]

GURPS cleans up on their setting books, and they do a very good job. They have almost as much research as academic texts, are usually very accurate if historical and if not they are very well put together and consistent.
I very much agree. I enjoy picking up a GURPS setting book and reading it cover to cover - never really been disappointed by one.

[The Big Dice]

GURPS cleans up on their setting books, and they do a very good job. They have almost as much research as academic texts, are usually very accurate if historical and if not they are very well put together and consistent.
They are also almost invariably unsupported. It's a rare GURPS setting book that has a second volume that deals with the same setting. I used to describe GURPS as the best-worst supported game on the planet. Best because of the breadth and quality of setting material, worst because of the complete lack of depth to any of that stuff.