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Rettu Skcollob
2011-04-02, 01:27 AM
An hour ago, I stumbled across what may be the greatest roleplaying system of all time; a homebrewed system which came out of 4chan's /tg/ board. Dungeons: The Dragoning is a balls-to-the-wall crazy system which is essentially a chimera of D&D, WoD and 40K, jam packed with references and asides to practically every aspect of traditional gaming there is.

You can find the PDF here (http://www.mediafire.com/?bq3bzc2o2n5ness).

It's Rifts 2.0 if it was written in the fever dreams of some kind of neckbeard deity, and that? That is awesome. I am actually seriously considering running this, and it's exploding on /tg/ at this very moment. I recommend downloading it and at least giving it a read.

Curious
2011-04-02, 02:22 AM
Oh my god. Do want.:smalltongue:

Teln
2011-04-02, 02:46 AM
Less than 24 hours old, and it's already a google autocomplete.

Curious
2011-04-02, 03:45 AM
Less than 24 hours old, and it's already a google autocomplete.

Thus spake 4chan.:smallbiggrin:

Teln
2011-04-02, 03:51 AM
Spells can backfire. SPELLS CAN BACKFIRE!

Rettu Skcollob
2011-04-02, 04:10 AM
Less than 24 hours old, and it's already a google autocomplete.

It's also rocketed up to 100 votes on the suptg archive in a matter of hours, putting it up there with the best archived threads ever. (For comparison, 20 votes or more is the highest rating a thread can have, IE 'Epic' rating.)

Teln
2011-04-02, 04:17 AM
I know, I'm a fa/tg/uy myself. Matter of fact, I've been keeping an eye on this all night, when I've got a term paper I should be writing. It's a quarter past 5 and I'm still awake.

wiimanclassic
2011-04-02, 12:48 PM
So question, is this grid based or something? If not would it work for a play by post? The only system we use is another homebrewed one and works well but the guys might want some variety.

Morph Bark
2011-04-02, 01:04 PM
The title made me suspect the content, but I could have never dreamt 40K to be a part of it.

Gonna dl it to see what it's like, but got a game in 30 minutes, so not much chance yet.

EDIT: If anyone is going to run a PbP game based on this, PM me. :smalltongue:

big teej
2011-04-02, 01:24 PM
I've gotta get ready for work soon, so I can't browse that now, but I will soon

I am intrigued

-reserves slot for potential pbp-

Emperor Ing
2011-04-02, 02:58 PM
Great. Here I am trying to learn Dark Heresy, now there's a whole new RPG system I wanna learn.
Eh, I got time, and I DL'd the pdf. :smalltongue:

ScionoftheVoid
2011-04-02, 03:31 PM
I don't know why they seem to use My Little Pony as a contrast to manliness, but that's my only complaint up to page 9. Looks to be a hilarious read.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-02, 03:34 PM
I don't know why they seem to use My Little Pony as a contrast to manliness, but that's my only complaint up to page 9. Looks to be a hilarious read.

Because dude, MLP is BRIGHTLY COLORED, not GRIMDARK AND TESTICULAR.

It's a parody book, man, don't sweat it too much. Besides, MLP catches a LOT of hate on /tg/ and /co/ even since before the great aponylypse or whatever they're calling it. That was a true example of powerspamming.

Jarian
2011-04-02, 03:43 PM
Why is this not completely terrible? I was all set to make fun of it, but everything I've read so far makes WotC look like a bunch of incompetent ten year olds publishing an RPG by contrast. And this is a parody?

Brain = asploded.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-02, 03:52 PM
Why is this not completely terrible? I was all set to make fun of it, but everything I've read so far makes WotC look like a bunch of incompetent ten year olds publishing an RPG by contrast. And this is a parody?

Brain = asploded.

Hell, it makes GW's official product look both tame AND ill-made.

Lord Raziere
2011-04-02, 04:04 PM
this is interesting enough for me to actually investigate.

its a little weird......but I might actually try it. the exaltation, race and class thing opens up a lot of combinations....

Teln
2011-04-02, 05:24 PM
It has a website now: http://lawfulnice.blogspot.com/

ScionoftheVoid
2011-04-02, 06:23 PM
Because dude, MLP is BRIGHTLY COLORED, not GRIMDARK AND TESTICULAR.

It's a parody book, man, don't sweat it too much. Besides, MLP catches a LOT of hate on /tg/ and /co/ even since before the great aponylypse or whatever they're calling it. That was a true example of powerspamming.

Oh, I know. I just wanted to point out that Fluttershy is more badass than the vast majority of Commissars, so it seemed an odd choice to anyone familiar with the show (FiM, of course, not the earlier incarnations). It wasn't supposed to be a serious complaint.

In any case, the system looks entertaining, interesting and adaptable. I'll have to finish it tomorrow, though. Just started chapter 8: Magic.

SurlySeraph
2011-04-02, 06:46 PM
I'm up to page 200 so far, and yet it somehow inexplicably continues to be awesome. I mean, a few things are unclear or poorly worded; there are places where he apparently changed what the word for something was but forgot to change it everywhere (say, anima and arcana for Atlanteans); there are a couple spots of obvious imbalance (Zenith Caste vs Twilight Caste); and there are a couple "I would have done this differently" bits (like making attacks of opportunity a special once-per-round free action instead of a reaction action), but overall it looks excellent.

It looks pretty open to modifying how things work. For ecample, you could easily have a low-power game by making characters without Exaltations and using the one-level classes.

And even if it wasn't so well-written, I'd still have to love it for the lines like "Paragons are perhaps the most subtle of all Exalts. They don't have blatant supernatural abilities. They can't change shape or kill people with special mind bullets (just the same mind bullets as anyone else)."

Ampris
2011-04-02, 07:53 PM
Oh, I know. I just wanted to point out that Fluttershy is more badass than the vast majority of Commissars, so it seemed an odd choice to anyone familiar with the show (FiM, of course, not the earlier incarnations). It wasn't supposed to be a serious complaint.

In any case, the system looks entertaining, interesting and adaptable. I'll have to finish it tomorrow, though. Just started chapter 8: Magic.

Hey,

Playtester and IRL friend of the creator here! There has actually been enough of a demand that Lawfulnice will be adding a MLP inspired race to an upcoming splatbook.

If anyone has any questions, comments, or suggestions regarding DtD, please let me know!

Icedaemon
2011-04-02, 07:58 PM
I skimmed it a bit. Nice. I am confused though: Does 'paragon' not have a list of things to spend action points on, or did I just end up with a damaged download?

Ampris
2011-04-02, 08:05 PM
I skimmed it a bit. Nice. I am confused though: Does 'paragon' not have a list of things to spend action points on, or did I just end up with a damaged download?

A Paragon can spend Action Points in the same way anyone else can spend resource points. It is true that it doesn't have a scaling list of abilities from higher levels in Pressure. They just have a larger and larger pool of Pressure Points to spend to directly modify rolls.

Teln
2011-04-02, 08:15 PM
So the Paragon has a First Excellency. I like it.

Morph Bark
2011-04-02, 08:18 PM
Hey,

Playtester and IRL friend of the creator here! There has actually been enough of a demand that Lawfulnice will be adding a MLP inspired race to an upcoming splatbook.

If anyone has any questions, comments, or suggestions regarding DtD, please let me know!

Well, considering it is a mash-up of three big tabeltop gigs, one can only wonder if more will be brought in or otherwise be statted up in DtD. Like Cthulhu for example. :smalltongue:

A MLP race sounds interesting... I don't suppose we may know other races that are going to be upcoming? (Especially odd ones out like MLP in this case, since ponies don't have hands and all.)

Ampris
2011-04-02, 08:28 PM
Well, considering it is a mash-up of three big tabeltop gigs, one can only wonder if more will be brought in or otherwise be statted up in DtD. Like Cthulhu for example. :smalltongue:

A MLP race sounds interesting... I don't suppose we may know other races that are going to be upcoming? (Especially odd ones out like MLP in this case, since ponies don't have hands and all.)


Just 3 smashups you say?

Please take a moment to examine the books cover if you will! DnD, 40k, 7th sea, and Vampire are all there! He also used things L5R, Exalted, and a few other RPGs along with a touch of homebrew to keep it all happy and balanced! =D

And we aren't sure on further races right now. Since he just released it yesterday hes gotten swamped with suggestions (everything from MLP to blood-magic to weapons and cybernetics requests!).

I can tell you there will shortly be a new version with bookmarks and fewer typos along with optional point-buy rules for character creation. :)

RaginChangeling
2011-04-02, 08:32 PM
Just 3 smashups you say?

Please take a moment to examine the books cover if you will! DnD, 40k, 7th sea, and Vampire are all there! He also used things L5R, Exalted, and a few other RPGs along with a touch of homebrew to keep it all happy and balanced! =D

And we aren't sure on further races right now. Since he just released it yesterday hes gotten swamped with suggestions (everything from MLP to blood-magic to weapons and cybernetics requests!).

I can tell you there will shortly be a new version with bookmarks and fewer typos along with optional point-buy rules for character creation. :)

Not to mention at least two of the races have their entire fluff ripped straight from Mass Effect and one from the Hobbit. I missed about half the references in the book, but those were pretty hilarious. Give the man some kudos.

Ampris
2011-04-02, 08:48 PM
Give the man some kudos.

Will do, he's still recovering from the initial shock of how well DtD was received haha

Mushroom Ninja
2011-04-02, 09:06 PM
I really want to play this system now...

ninja_penguin
2011-04-02, 09:16 PM
I saw this in passing on /tg/, originally assumed it was just nonsense.

But this? This?


This is quite possibly one of the most beautiful train wrecks of several systems I've ever seen. And it gives me a reason to use the Roll and Keep system without having to try and pull teeth to get my group to play L5R again.

Rettu Skcollob
2011-04-02, 09:24 PM
I think that the consensus is clear here: Someone must run a game in this system. And it will be AWESOME. Don't look at me; I'm already DM'ing several O=

ninja_penguin
2011-04-02, 09:28 PM
It'd be months before my brain would have the time. I'm already reeling just trying to take all of this in at once.

Also, DM'ing for the real life group takes precedence.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-02, 09:37 PM
I'm still trying to crack the code on Sword Schools. For some reason, I apparently fail.

Thus far, the idea is pretty easy: you get Style Points up to your Martial Adept level, which you can spend on creating Maneuvers (though I prefer techniques). As far as I can see, the idea is this.

Set Action: you determine how you'll execute the maneuver.
Add Advantages and Restrictions: you add Advantages up to your Style Points. If you need more Style Points, you can place Restrictions, which free Style Points.

The rest is what's muddled. For starters: when determining the XP to develop the technique, you ONLY add the Advantage points, right? Since, technically, with a set of Advantages and Restrictions summing 0, you could have several techniques costing 50 xp, which is pretty much dirt cheap if you find ways to counter those Restrictions.

The second is: Style Points are an actual score, or are they "renewed" with each new technique you develop (as if they were reagents of some sort)? This is the big thing, because otherwise you could only have ONE technique that's better than the rest, and it would be near-impossible to create high level techniques without forgetting old ones (to free Style Points). I incline towards the latter, but it would be highly unfair if it was the former.

So, for example: if I wanted to make the technique "No Moment" with a Martial Adept level of 5 (hence, 5 Style Points), the technique would work like this?

Set Action: Charge (0 Style Points), Ordinary (0 Style Points), Mastery: Open Palm Technique (0 Style Points), Feint (0 Style Points)
Advantages: Steel Wind (2 Style Points), More Pen (3 Style Points), Knight's Movement Concentration (2 Style Points)
Restrictions: Inaccurate (2 Style Points), Death Blow (-2)
Total Sum: 7 SP - 4 SP = 3 SP = 150 XP

Thus, you'd have the following technique:
No Moment
Extended Action
To use this ability, you must succeed on a Feint action on the earlier turn. You then sacrifice your next turn. At any moment the enemy is caught unaware, you may execute this movement. You charge the enemy, dealing [specify damage] to the enemy. This attack ignores 6 Armor Points and always deals at least 1 hit point of damage, whether it's successful or not. While charging with this ability, you do not provoke opportunity attacks.

...So, would that be the right way to do it? For some reason, trying to execute complex maneuvers (this one requires THREE schools to execute, including Iron Heart for Ordinary weaponry and Steel Wind, Shadow Hand for the Death Blow restriction and White Raven to execute a charge) seems difficult, because the system seems intuitive but doesn't really do so. BTW, what I tried to do was a iaijutsu technique done with a katana in the SaGa series which generally ignores defense and is done at a split second; consider just how difficult it was to translate, much less when it's not expanded a bit. An example would be perfect, if only because it would make creating your own techniques much, much, MUCH better instead of just trying to wing it only to have the SM shoot it down. Plus, formatting would be also nice.

Aside from that...I wish I could have a group to try this game out. I'll have to give it one serious read.

Teln
2011-04-02, 09:47 PM
I'll just leave this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DungeonsTheDragoning) here.

ninja_penguin
2011-04-02, 09:59 PM
So this is mult-genre then, from the looks of things, and the sample example pictures?

Mein gott, I think I'll need to run character creation on my own sometime in order to figure out how this all works.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-02, 10:21 PM
So this is mult-genre then, from the looks of things, and the sample example pictures?

Mein gott, I think I'll need to run character creation on my own sometime in order to figure out how this all works.

It doesn't seem that hard. The core mechanic is not d20, that's for sure: it's kept dice, with the format XkY, where you roll X and keep Y amount (thus, 5k3 means "roll five d10, keep 3 highest"), with explosive dice (if you get 10 on any roll, you roll again). You sum all three dice, then you compare to target number (I think that's from Legend of Five Rings, actually, if not something else) and determine the result. That's probably the easiest part to get: character creation is not so difficult if you've played any White Wolf game (choose scores and skills, then race, then template, then class, then background, then alignment and deity, then distribute bonus points, then starting package, then fill out the character sheet), compared to, say, making a D&D character at level 10 or so, or making an Exalted character who has its own set of maneuvers (though the sword school concept is something I've yet to understand). The rest is a mish-mash of things, but for most things combat is resolved sorta like D&D and probably a bit of Warhammer, social combat (aka, discussions) are solved pretty much like the ST system... Even if you miss a few of the references (I, for once, don't know the rules of Warhammer even though I know most of the lore), it's not THAT difficult until you enter the sub-systems.

Certainly, character creation is pretty easy; can't say the same about the actual Story Master. Though, the idea of an Aasimar Chosen of Sigmar Paladin 5/Cleric 5 is right around my aisle (even if it takes over 50,000 XP to complete, somewhat shy off reaching a 20th level character but more powerful than a 30th level one).

Ampris
2011-04-02, 10:30 PM
...So, would that be the right way to do it? For some reason, trying to execute complex maneuvers (this one requires THREE schools to execute, including Iron Heart for Ordinary weaponry and Steel Wind, Shadow Hand for the Death Blow restriction and White Raven to execute a charge) seems difficult, because the system seems intuitive but doesn't really do so....

The style points are per maneuver. Feel free to have as many maneuvers as you can afford with XP. :)

flabort
2011-04-02, 11:07 PM
So you could theoretically have infinite maneuvers? And just never level up :smalltongue:?

Cruxador
2011-04-02, 11:16 PM
So question, is this grid based or something? If not would it work for a play by post? The only system we use is another homebrewed one and works well but the guys might want some variety.It's not grid-based.
I don't know why they seem to use My Little Pony as a contrast to manliness, but that's my only complaint up to page 9. Looks to be a hilarious read. Check the page number, man. It's part of the larger joke.

I skimmed it a bit. Nice. I am confused though: Does 'paragon' not have a list of things to spend action points on, or did I just end up with a damaged download?

Pressure points add directly to successes on any roll. They're obtained at the start of the battle, and when a handful of other conditions are satisfied, listed in the second paragraph of the second column on page 46. They have no maximum.

Actions points are resource points just like any other exaltation (explained on page 38) and are used for the following:
* Heal 1 Hit Point.
* Gain +1k0 to a skill Test.
* Gain a reaction action.
* Recover from being Stunned
* Recover from being Dazed
They are refilled to maximum (Level + Pressure) at the start of every session.

I had to explain this to someone else elsewhere, so clearly this is insufficiently clear.
Hopefully this will be remedied soon enough.
So the Paragon has a First Excellency. I like it.Yes, but with its own special pool of points.


So you could theoretically have infinite maneuvers? And just never level up :smalltongue:?
Sure. You could pump experience into anything that you have access to and not bother with leveling up. It has classes and levels, but it still functions as a classless system in most ways.

Ampris
2011-04-02, 11:29 PM
So you could theoretically have infinite maneuvers? And just never level up :smalltongue:?

Its not on a leveling system. The GM awards you experience and you spend it on what you want.

So you could decide to spend all your XP on maneuvers if you wanted to not spend anything in your ability scores or buy any feats ect

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-02, 11:55 PM
The style points are per maneuver. Feel free to have as many maneuvers as you can afford with XP. :)

Well, at least that point is cleared, but it's still a bit hard to create a maneuver from scratch using spare parts (to say the very least). Generally, you'll want a zero-sum or 1 SP over technique in order to have a cheap yet effective maneuver, which is rather hard to execute if you want it to have lots of flair. For example: the maneuver I placed as an example is quite complex, requiring an extended turn and two different actions, one executed on the first round and the other executed after the next round, so it's essentially a three-turn technique which has a moderate, yet effective, form of ignoring defense. Success and damage should be easy to work with (Weaponry + Strength for the attack rolls, Strength + weapon damage rating for damage, plus the bonus from charging on both sides, and the enemy cannot evade it because you successfully feinted him in order to execute the maneuver). Yet, when you see the maneuver executed, it seems pretty easy, something that doesn't correlate to the actual result.

Thus, an example would be better (not mine, since I did it as best as I could translate it), in order to allow people to familiarize with the system (or else, risk having people neglect it much like how rigging in Shadowrun is often ignored, or Internet combat). It should be easy in execution (one slot for attack, one slot for action, then add Advantages and Restrictions until the SP range is between 1 to 5), which it doesn't seem to do (joke or not).

Also: where is my Trinity Universe splatbook!? I want Novas and Psiads in D:tD ASAP! Superpowers =/= magic, psionics or divine powers, so they need to be clearly spread out!

Ampris
2011-04-02, 11:57 PM
We've gathered a number of people in IRC and are talking character and answering questions ect.

Server: Irc.rizon.net
Channel: #dtdchat

Feel free to join Oskar (or anyone else for that matter!) The more the merrier!

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-03, 12:02 AM
We've gathered a number of people in IRC and are talking character and answering questions ect.

Server: Irc.rizon.net
Channel: #dtdchat

Feel free to join Oskar (or anyone else for that matter!) The more the merrier!

Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to politely decline. Much too late where I live, and I have to wake up very early, so I need as much sleep as possible. Plus, it's been years since I've dealt with IRC anyways, so don't remember how to work with it (nor have the time to relearn).

Still; anything that can be relayed would be welcome.

That reminds me: how do you learn Healing or Transmutation spells? And what is Empowerment supposed to represent, anyways? Mind telling that to the designer, because that's 2 out of 9 magic schools missing (because Necromancy is probably Tremere-exclusive spellcasting, given Blood Potency). Minor Magic helps, but not everyone can take it actually...

Morph Bark
2011-04-03, 05:08 AM
Just 3 smashups you say?

Please take a moment to examine the books cover if you will! DnD, 40k, 7th sea, and Vampire are all there! He also used things L5R, Exalted, and a few other RPGs along with a touch of homebrew to keep it all happy and balanced! =D

Mi scusi. When I said three, I kinda put together the White Wolf things due to them having to deal a lot with one another (aside from Exalted, but I do love how the Exaltations in DtD were based on other White Wolf product lines) and them using the Storyteller system. I know nothing of L5R besides having heard it started under DnD rules or something, and the only thing I know of 7th Sea is that it has a few awesome rules in it for very particular situations (swinging from a chandelier to get a combat advantage for example).

Great to see there's more though, and still balanced and not too much looking like a parody! (As in, most parodies end up looking silly, like the Scary Movie series. Whilst I haven't completely gotten a grimdark feel here, it is much more in that direction then silliness.)


And we aren't sure on further races right now. Since he just released it yesterday hes gotten swamped with suggestions (everything from MLP to blood-magic to weapons and cybernetics requests!).

I can tell you there will shortly be a new version with bookmarks and fewer typos along with optional point-buy rules for character creation. :)

To be honest, I already felt like homebrewing stuff for the system, starting with a goblin race and other DnD races. :smalltongue:

Hamster Friend
2011-04-03, 06:22 AM
I've got a couple of questions regarding the system:


How does one acquire Magical School ranks in Necromancy or Transmutation?
What exactly are the 'Blood Magic' powers you can get for being a Tremere?

ScionoftheVoid
2011-04-03, 06:56 AM
Hey,

Playtester and IRL friend of the creator here! There has actually been enough of a demand that Lawfulnice will be adding a MLP inspired race to an upcoming splatbook.

If anyone has any questions, comments, or suggestions regarding DtD, please let me know!

Wow, that should be cool.

I haven't finished reading it yet but everything I've read so far looks excellent (barring some typos and things changing names occasionally, which have been mentioned already and are fairly minor). I seem to remember one thing that I couldn't wrap my head around but what it was escapes me at the moment. Might find it when I reread the whole thing.

In any case, I may well run a game of this for my RL group. I'll try to give any problems or particularly good parts of the rules as they come up if I do.

Icedaemon
2011-04-03, 07:49 AM
If anyone wants to start a game on this, I would like to assume the role of a Paragon Ork in a red and white velvet suit.

His character arc would be attempting to conclusively prove that orks is best, so he would be reasonably humble in that while he does consider himself a fine example of orkdom, he believes all orks to be ded' ard.

ninja_penguin
2011-04-03, 09:01 AM
I've got a couple of questions regarding the system:


How does one acquire Magical School ranks in Necromancy or Transmutation?
What exactly are the 'Blood Magic' powers you can get for being a Tremere?


Not sure on the first. If I recall my browsing of yesterday's /tg/ thread, I think that's a typo, and Tremere get a rank in necromancy. Apparently magic schools got flipped around, name-wise.

SurlySeraph
2011-04-03, 11:04 AM
I can answer one of those. Silent Striders, one of the Werewolf asset feats, gives you a rank in Transmutation.


Hey,

Playtester and IRL friend of the creator here! There has actually been enough of a demand that Lawfulnice will be adding a MLP inspired race to an upcoming splatbook.

If anyone has any questions, comments, or suggestions regarding DtD, please let me know!

'Kay, here are all the significant issues I've noticed having read it through:

*The distinction between pressure points and action points should be explained more clearly, as mentioned above. Also, do Paragons get any benefit for increasing their Pressure other than more action points and pressure points?
*How does the Prometheans need to be repaired instead of healing naturally interact with an Ork's healing, and with Cure Light Wounds?
*There's a contradiction with whether Daemonhosts can regain Essence by biting or only by Resonance Eruptions.
*It appears that Empowerment was changed to Healing in the magic section, but not in the Cleric's magic school list
*It's slightly ambiguous whether non-vampires can take Necromancy due to the text of Draining Touch.
*The Atlantean asset feats should say Arcana instead of Anima, and the Zenith one looks too powerful (and the Twilight too weak) compared to the rest. The Zenith apparently gets +[power stat] Armor and Aura scene-long as a side effect whenever he spends a mote, but the Twilight has to spend a mote to add +[power stat] unkept dice to a single parry or dodge roll.
*Mark of Vectron seems a bit overpowered. Which it probably should be, but still.
*On wizard schools: Emerald Frost talks about reducing the target's armor, but armor doesn't apply to magical attacks anyway. Shouldn't it talk about Aura instead?
*Am I correct in thinking that Desert Wind can be used both for Syrneth ranged weapons and for Syrneth melee weapons?
*When you use a martial maneuver with an action that doesn't include an attack, such as Aim, do any attack-related benefits you put on it apply to your next attack, or what?
*Is a martial maneuver whose cost is fully offset with restrictions (i.e., costs a net 0 style points) free?
*Can Swift Attack be used for Brawl and Ballistics attacks?
*It's spelled "Implement," not "Impliment."

And finally, thank you. This is incredibly awesome, and you should be proud of the part you played in bringing it to the masses.

ninja_penguin
2011-04-03, 11:11 AM
One quick question: This might be my fault, as I tend to skip around pdfs rather then read them through, but where do you find which skill is governed by which attribute? I've got a Eladrin/Vampire/something in progress as I'm just poking at the system, and I'm trying to figure out what is where to make sure I didn't hamstring my gunslinger idea.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-03, 11:22 AM
So apparently we get:

Abjuration: Magic User, Cleric
Conjuration: Cleric
Divination: Magic User, Cleric
Enchantment: Magic User, Bard
Evocation: Magic User
Healing: Cleric (?)
Illusion: Magic User, Bard
Necromancy: Vampire (Tremere asset) (?)
Transmutation: Werewolf (Silent Strider asset)

Meaning a character can only gain access to about 7 of the nine schools (barring getting the Minor Magic feat), Empowerment is apparently Healing (though it should be slighly different because there's a non-healing spell on the Healing spell list, Holy Aura), and the last two are apparently Exalt-exclusive: furthermore, as far as I can see, you can't take more than one level of Necromancy because you can only get Minor Magic or the free rank from the Tremere asset, but unlike Silent Strider you can't seem to progress it).

Still, that's a bit odd. You can get Necromancy and Transmutation through Minor Magic, but only roll 1 die EVER, because unless you become a vampire or a werewolf you can't emulate those abilities. Furthermore, you can't get more Necromancy spells, and any vampire initiate is apparently better than a Tremere in their own turf, because they only need 1 level of Initiate to get exactly what they'd get with the asset plus a heckuva lot more.

Also: Mark of Luna >>>>>>>>>>> Mark of Vectron. While it's silly to use Mark of Luna to activate Mark of Vectron, the ability to activate any other Mark really makes her Mark one of the best. Also, maybe it's because of what it is, but Marks of Ruinous Powers are just too much; Marks of Blessed Alliance suck in comparison (baaaaaadly, but then again, Chaos Ruinous Powers are too GRIMDARK for the game), with Cuthbert getting the best in the mix.


One quick question: This might be my fault, as I tend to skip around pdfs rather then read them through, but where do you find which skill is governed by which attribute? I've got a Eladrin/Vampire/something in progress as I'm just poking at the system, and I'm trying to figure out what is where to make sure I didn't hamstring my gunslinger idea.

Should be on the Combat section or the Skills section. In any case, it should probably be Weaponry + Dexterity to hit, if it works as intended. Remember that in WW/Shadowrun and similar systems, the dice pool is equal to Attribute + Skill. Generally, skills tend to use the same attribute, but not always.

SurlySeraph
2011-04-03, 12:04 PM
EDIT: Oh, that reminds me. Acererak and Acerath are apparently both used for the same deity. That needs to be made consistent.


Also: Mark of Luna >>>>>>>>>>> Mark of Vectron. While it's silly to use Mark of Luna to activate Mark of Vectron, the ability to activate any other Mark really makes her Mark one of the best.

A Hero Point seems like a pretty hefty price to me, decently balancing that out.


In any case, it should probably be Weaponry + Dexterity to hit, if it works as intended. Remember that in WW/Shadowrun and similar systems, the dice pool is equal to Attribute + Skill. Generally, skills tend to use the same attribute, but not always.

For a gunslinger, Ballistics + Dexterity.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-03, 01:04 PM
A Hero Point seems like a pretty hefty price to me, decently balancing that out.

Probably if you get too many scenes in one session. Generally, if combat is much like WW, you won't want to get more than one combat at most. 2 Hero Points is more than enough, and consider that 2 Hero Points is not really the absolute limit, even if it's not really bought.

It wouldn't work with a sadistic SM, though. That I can concede. But if you're too worried about Hero Points, you're not enough badass to be in GRIMDARK anyways.


For a gunslinger, Ballistics + Dexterity.

Oh yeah, I somehow forgot Ballistics. My mistake. Since it's not called Firearms...

Cruxador
2011-04-03, 04:33 PM
Furthermore, you can't get more Necromancy spells, and any vampire initiate is apparently better than a Tremere in their own turf, because they only need 1 level of Initiate to get exactly what they'd get with the asset plus a heckuva lot more.

There is a line which reads "You may purchase this power as if it was part of any class you belong to" right there in the asset's description.

Weimann
2011-04-03, 05:58 PM
I've only read a couple pages yet, but I must commend the layout of the book; it's really not visible that it's a home made product, and the writing itself is enough to keep me reading. I'm thoroughly enjoying it already, and I can't wait to get to the crunch parts.

ninja_penguin
2011-04-03, 06:01 PM
The writing is outright hysterical in places. Especially the bioshock opening in the introduction.

My friend, who plays Warmachine, almost fell out of the chair when he got to page 5.

Otogi
2011-04-03, 06:10 PM
Made a topic about this recently before (you know, using logic...before having it pointed out) that there was already one up. While it's being deleted, it's good to see a lot interest on the forums! With school finals coming up, I can't play or host any games, but when I can, I definitely will!

(Also, cool to see a little Shin Megami Tensei art in there; nice :smallamused:).

Seerow
2011-04-03, 06:35 PM
I'm just now reading the first page, and I already love this book, just for the attitude displayed. Looking forward to getting to the crunch.


edit: Okay starting into character creation, and I'm already finding one thing I'd like to see: Bookmarks in the default download. Assuming you continue to distribute via pdf, pdf bookmarks for each chapter and/or subjection would make it a lot easier to navigate when you actually sit down to make a character and need to be going back and forth between sections.

Rettu Skcollob
2011-04-03, 07:11 PM
I'm just now reading the first page, and I already love this book, just for the attitude displayed. Looking forward to getting to the crunch.


edit: Okay starting into character creation, and I'm already finding one thing I'd like to see: Bookmarks in the default download. Assuming you continue to distribute via pdf, pdf bookmarks for each chapter and/or subjection would make it a lot easier to navigate when you actually sit down to make a character and need to be going back and forth between sections.

Someone made a bookmarked copy almost immediately after it hit 4chan, I didn't download it though since I already had the main copy.

Seerow
2011-04-03, 07:22 PM
Someone made a bookmarked copy almost immediately after it hit 4chan, I didn't download it though since I already had the main copy.

Ah well. I'm bookmarking it as I read.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-03, 07:25 PM
I'm just now reading the first page, and I already love this book, just for the attitude displayed. Looking forward to getting to the crunch.


edit: Okay starting into character creation, and I'm already finding one thing I'd like to see: Bookmarks in the default download. Assuming you continue to distribute via pdf, pdf bookmarks for each chapter and/or subjection would make it a lot easier to navigate when you actually sit down to make a character and need to be going back and forth between sections.

Someone made a bookmarked copy almost immediately after it hit 4chan, I didn't download it though since I already had the main copy.

Besides, doesn't the author say he wants to tidy things up and deliver a better version of the book? Just wait a bit, or use the search function to get to the right stuff.

What I'd say you really could use is the page in the White Wolf books that details character creation in simpler terms, but that stands alone and can be printed for easy reminders. Actually, it's two pages, but they could be condensed into nice printing form. Maybe right at the end of the Character Creation page (because, even if it's redundant, it's not 10+ pages that will take a lot of print, but 2 pages which can be printed really easily; alternatively, you could place it on the last part right alongside the character sheet).

Oh, also: Quickstart rules? That would be pretty nice. A short adventure, good for a first session, plus the character sheet and the condensed Character Creation pages. How that would work up (Quick Start rules from WW and Basic Set from WotC)?

Also; does anybody already started a PbP in here (or maybe in Myth-Weavers or something)? You know, to see the game in action?

ninja_penguin
2011-04-03, 07:53 PM
There's a thread started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193693), but it needs a SM. I've got too many other things in the pipes to try and SM this one, I'm afraid.

Weimann
2011-04-03, 07:59 PM
So I got down to page 55 today, going to continue tomorrow. I already love the mix of just about everything, and the way that the author has managed to make what is obviously an affectionate parody to actually seem to work. Granted, balance and such have not been properly tested yet, but there's a clear effort in it, and that goes for a lot.

I love the things I recognize from my own favourite RPGs, for example the Brawl speciality in Solar Hero Style, and also the things that are just funny; Scanty and Kneesocks as Tieflings had me in stitches.

Unfortunately, it keeps a few of the problems I see in D&D 3.5 (to be expected, of course, and I'm not yelling "CHANGE IT" either), which is a too wide selection of races and also skills. The race thing is just a matter of taste, I like to have few but prominent races, ideally just humans. The skill thing is more mechanical. Why have Common, Academic and Forbidden Lore skills, and on top of that an Arcana skill, as well as separate Drive and Pilot skills, when it seems to be okay to lumping all kinds of craft together in a single Craft skill.

In the name of consistency, if it's motivated to split knowledge skills into four separate categories, then it's probably prudent to at least separate gem cutting, tailoring and painting from blacksmithing, house building and mecha-engineering. Either that, or merge more skills into one.

In any case, it's not something that in any way kills the game for me, and I'd love to play a game of it. Great work!

Cruxador
2011-04-03, 08:10 PM
The race thing is just a matter of taste, I like to have few but prominent races, ideally just humans.In general I would agree with this. However, the primary benefit of limiting races in this manner is cohesion. The setting here is a multiplanar setting, with diverse races coming from diverse Crystal Spheres. And there's no limit to how many Crystal Spheres there are.

The skill thing is more mechanical. Why have Common, Academic and Forbidden Lore skills, and on top of that an Arcana skill, as well as separate Drive and Pilot skills, when it seems to be okay to lumping all kinds of craft together in a single Craft skill. I agree that Drive and Pilot could be fused, and Craft could be split into more. Do note the Physical/Mental/Social issue, however. It's important to keep those three balanced. In theory, at least. I don't know how that works with the Class system. The class choices seem to emphasize physical and especially combat skills a lot anyway.

Ampris
2011-04-03, 10:06 PM
Sorry I haven't been answering questions, I've been away all day!

And since I'm heading to bed soon....

Lawfulnice has set up a blog to keep people informed of changes and upcoming splatbooks as well as get feedback.

http://lawfulnice.blogspot.com/

Seerow
2011-04-03, 10:08 PM
I want to point out that the entire Transmutation school of magic is usable only by werewolves, and then only after they spend xp on a specific feat to unlock it. This feels -really- wasteful to me at the moment.

Similarly, Abjuration feels like a really weak school, where the only real protection it can do is use their magic test as a parry test. I kind of expected some sort of a group upgrade to shield at least, or a mage armor type effect. Though the random utilities are pretty nice.

Also Greater Servant as written has only 2 in all skills, with 4 in all stats. (rather than upgrading to 4/4) I'm not sure if this is intended. I am curious if said servant comes equipped with any gear, cause a Greater Servant in combat without gear has its only real option as Brawling. Especially since it mentions nothing about coming with any proficiencies. (Note: For this Create Undead is even worse). Speaking of brawling, the skill itself adds to the dice you roll for damage for a brawling test, but I can't seem to find the base damage for fists.

On the other hand, the Greater Servant -does- have 4 in all social stats and 2 in all social skills, so a conjurer can be your groups' face via his servant. It's also reasonably good at stealth/perception, and basically anything else that isn't what you would expect: Fighting.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-03, 10:16 PM
I want to point out that the entire Transmutation school of magic is usable only by werewolves, and then only after they spend xp on a specific feat to unlock it. This feels -really- wasteful to me at the moment.

Same with Vampires and Necromancy. I'd say Silver Striders and Tremere bloodsuckers should have unique spells only they can use, but get vanilla Necro and Transmutation spells for everyone, to really show they are masters of those schools.


Speaking of brawling, the skill itself adds to the dice you roll for damage for a brawling test, but I can't seem to find the base damage for fists.

Intuitive. Brawling + Strength, Impact damage. Consider that Energy = fire or plasma damage (this includes lightning), Explosive = any damage that flows outwards (such as explosions or force damage), Impact = blunt damage, Rending = slashing and/or piercing, anything that opens wounds.

Seerow
2011-04-03, 10:38 PM
Same with Vampires and Necromancy. I'd say Silver Striders and Tremere bloodsuckers should have unique spells only they can use, but get vanilla Necro and Transmutation spells for everyone, to really show they are masters of those schools.


I didn't even notice that. Yeah, that's really annoying having almost a fourth of the spells in the game restricted to specific exalts.


Intuitive. Brawling + Strength, Impact damage. Consider that Energy = fire or plasma damage (this includes lightning), Explosive = any damage that flows outwards (such as explosions or force damage), Impact = blunt damage, Rending = slashing and/or piercing, anything that opens wounds.


None of that really answered my question though, that tells what damage type it is, and what you roll for your attack roll, but I was wondering what the actual damage value of the punch was. But that's okay, I found the relevant rule (punch damage is strk1 damage, upgrading to strk2 with a specialization in brawling)


Anyway, one other complaint is that none of the skills actually have an associated stat. They're labeled as physical, social, or mental, but you don't have anything that says ballistics is agility based, or brawler is strength based. I could make a logical argument for shooting a gun using my con as the additive skill.

Cruxador
2011-04-03, 11:20 PM
On the subject of the limited schools:
In the current setup, Necromancy and Transmutation are only available to Tremeres and Silent Striders as things currently stand. That's not really ideal. I recommend a "Tremere-taught" and "Strider-taught" feat, available as optional feats at the middle levels of Magic User and Cleric, allowing the character to add those schools to the list for the class with which the user takes it. Lacking Blood Potency and Feral Heart, the character would never be as good at it as if they were of the appropriate exaltation, but those spells would nonetheless be available to all characters nonetheless.

And while I'm at it, I may as well post my accompanying evaluation of the magic schools:
Abjuration's higher level abilities are a bit lackluster; only contingency is really noticeably better than a Abjuration 3 spell. I'd recommend swapping the levels between Disjunction and Contingency.
Conjuration lacks varied abilities, there's no possible way to avoid having spells that are different-powered versions of each other. To remedy this I suggest a set of daemon-summoning spells. So long as these don't include the capability to control the daemon, this should work fine.
Divination is a pretty solid school. I'd recommend Augury, rather than revealing if current actions are wise, says something like "if your current course of action is likely to have positive or negative results for you", as current wording is likely to spark debates of the meaning of "wise", and/or what actions count as "current". Scry and Commune should probably accept a crystal ball as a focus, as an additional possible alternative to the water and mirror.
Enchantment is pretty good. Attraction, as currently worded, excludes animals as viable targets. It probably shouldn't.
Evocation is boring. It's all just various flavors of damage-dealing. Damage dealing is all well and good, but having nothing else is liable to leave someone with multiple Evocation spells just spamming whatever spell is most powerful or most efficient, and not using the other spells. Also unless I'm mistaken, the line Energy Meteors
Healing is good. Rebuke seems underpowered for a 3 spell, but that's just my impression.
Illusion seems solid enough, though it could use a touch more variety. I feel as though it should be possible to make illusions of greater volume than the lowest level Image. One such as "Illusory Landscape" with a vast area but otherwise the same characteristics as Image (but higher TN of course) would be a good addition at a later level, probably 4.
Necromancy is solid enough. Consume Soul seems like it should do something else beyond what it does; eating a soul should effect the caste in some way, though possibly only if the caster is a vampire.
Transmutation is somewhat lacking in options for non-werewolves. Treesong and Earth Song should increase effected volume with raises.

Seerow
2011-04-03, 11:42 PM
Abjuration's higher level abilities are a bit lackluster;

Disjunction seemed pretty decent, but really -it- could have just been a TN upgrade from Dispell. This is a recurring problem with a lot of the spells. We get a repeat of the same spell with a stronger effect and higher TN. This is fine in D&D where you have tons of spells known. In DtD, you get one spell known per school level you pick up. Each one should be doing something new.

I mean you could almost make an argument for Evokation and having one new spell for every area type (ie a multi hit spell, a single target big hit spell, a blast spell, and a line spell), that still only gives you 5 spells. Simply let their damage scale as you increase target number. Energy Wall and Energy Aura are okay, those are relatively unique effects. But things that are just direct upgrades like the meteor, or energy bits, need to be replaced with something else that's fitting.

You can go through basically every school for this. We have 3 different versions of teleport, and 2 versions of Porte, as 5 out of 9 conjuration spells. Heal has 2 different versions, one of which is just a straight out upgrade (x3 effect for +10 tn).


I mean, we have several examples of spells that do scale, and spells that are opposed tests, meaning that you are expected to be rolling a good amount on the tests in question, and should be rewarded for rolling well. Why not implement scaling into the spells rather than having a lot of false choices, when spell selection is already so harshly limited?

Also, most of the spells that can be resisted use arcana for resisting. Yet there is no mention of this at all on the skills page, and many players may not realize it. Arcana really is a must have skill for any character if they don't want to start eating chain stuns from a level 2 enchanter until they die, and unless they read through all of the spell lists, they have no way of knowing this. I'd also argue the resistance being based off willpower makes Willpower an overall stronger attribute than con, given a high mental stat character will have the same hp, better magic resistance, and a higher threshold for recovery from wounds. (With 5 hp damage, would you rather spend 1 week to recover all 5 hp, or spend 2 days recovering 3 hp per day?). Does Constitution have some other benefits I'm not aware of?



edit: A couple other things I'm noticing:
1) Passive Defense is way too low. Normally, I'd consider that justified, figuring you should be dodging/parrying ****, or mitigating damage, rather than expecting people to just miss you. The problem is, smaller races' benefit is supposed to be they have a higher passive defense. The problem is they aren't higher enough for that to be of any real value.

Consider, a Tiefling with size 7, 5 Dex. Assuming he wears non-restrictive armor, he has a TN to hit him of 10+(5*5)-7 = 28. A halfling with the same agility has a TN to hit him of 10+(5*5)-3 = 32.

So in exchange for being hit with a 4 lower threshold, the Tiefling is taking less than half as much damage. And yes, said Tiefling wants all of that dex, because it is used on all attack tests. (page199)

Just for a point of comparison: Your average character is rolling around 10k9 (5 attribute + 4 skill + 1k0 specialization. Normal limits are 4/3, 5/4 can be gained via racial bonus or exp spending. You should be getting the racial to at least one of them), this is not using anything fancy, just straight up stat + skill. Even ignoring the specialization, the average of 9d10 is going to be 49. The only time the passive defense is even going to come up is if the roll is exceptionally poor.


Basically either I'm way misreading the way attack rolls are done, or passive defense is far too weak. Alternatively, smaller sizes are too weak, and should gain a benefit elsewhere (something like you add 6-size to your dodge/parry rolls)




On a related note: I see only 2 ways to gain Aura to reduce magic damage (btw, you may want to find another name for that, given how frequently the word aura pops up in other contexts' in the book. For example I expected elemental aura to provide some magic resistance): 1) A feat specific to abjurers and 2) Artifacts.

While I like the abjurer feat, it seems pretty limited to be the only way to gain magic resistance. It requiring you to cast an abjuration spell -every turn- is also pretty crazy, given there aren't actually that many abjuration spells that are usable in combat. Unless you expect people to spend every turn counterspelling enemy mages, which they wouldn't need to do if they could just have the bonus armor at all times...

Mayhem
2011-04-04, 04:18 AM
This is awesome, though that size multiple thing is a real pain. I made a quick and basic table for it.
{table="head; width=800"]{colsp=10}Table: (Damage/Size) = Hitpoints

Damage
[b]Size|10| 15| 20| 25| 30| 35| 40| 45| 50|

3 | 3| 5| 6| 8| 10| 11| 13| 15| 16|

4 | 2| 3| 5| 6| 7| 8| 10|11|12|

5 | 2| 3| 4| 5| 6| 7| 8| 9|10|

6 | 1| 2| 3| 4| 5| 5| 6| 7| 8|

7 | 1| 2| 2| 3| 4| 5| 5| 6| 7|

8 | 1| 1| 2| 3| 3| 4| 5| 5| 6|

9 | 1| 1| 2| 2| 3| 3| 4| 5| 5[/table]

First thing I noticed with regards to races: Humans are better in every way except for their power. I think non-human races should get a little bit more, an extra skill bonus at least.

stainboy
2011-04-04, 05:31 AM
Just for a point of comparison: Your average character is rolling around 10k9 (5 attribute + 4 skill + 1k0 specialization. Normal limits are 4/3, 5/4 can be gained via racial bonus or exp spending. You should be getting the racial to at least one of them), this is not using anything fancy, just straight up stat + skill. Even ignoring the specialization, the average of 9d10 is going to be 49. The only time the passive defense is even going to come up is if the roll is exceptionally poor.

If I understand it right that attack roll should be 10k5, or 11k5 with a stunt. You roll stat+skill and keep stat only.

I'm mostly saying this to make sure I understand it right myself, so if I'm wrong and you want to correct me, fire away.

Weimann
2011-04-04, 05:46 AM
If I understand it right that attack roll should be 10k5, or 11k5 with a stunt. You roll stat+skill and keep stat only.

I'm mostly saying this to make sure I understand it right myself, so if I'm wrong and you want to correct me, fire away.I've understood it like that too. A dice pool of (Characteristic X + applicable Characteristic Speciality + Skill Y + applicable Skill Speciality + Stunt Z) makes (X+Y+Z+1)k(X+1), unless the unkept dice pool is greater than 10, in which case the overflow is transferred to the kept dice.

ninja_penguin
2011-04-04, 06:07 AM
that's what I've seen as well. That said, I think yeah, that static defense will still be hit by that because you're likely to have at least one exploding die. On the other hand, hopefully you've had some time for advancement by that point that you're having to dodge a 10k5 attack.

And I feel like melee attacks really should be keeping strength instead of dexterity for their attacks, as you're not able to increase your dexterity for attacking with some classes that clearly have a melee focus.

edit: and for those wanting a bookmarked version, I found one here (http://www.mediafire.com/?mrr05jppcijg3ag) on mediafire. It's legit, I've already downloaded it and poked at it, so thanks to whoever did that.

Weimann
2011-04-04, 09:56 AM
Now I've read through most of the book and flipped through the rest. It was quite an entertaining read. :smallsmile:

Before I do anything else, though, I'd like to ask. What is the author's intention with this game? If it's an April fools thing for the lulz, then I tip my hat and declare it a rousing success as is. If it's a creative outlet that would be nice if it was remotely playable, then I have some pointers on what could be changed to make it more streamlined. If it's actually intended to eventually become a well-balanced and competitive game system, then I will have to read it much more thoroughly in order to present valid critique.

I note that Ampris has been acting as a representative of White Wizard's Workshop, so I'll direct my question to her. Also, would she like opinions posted in this thread or PMed to her?

Seerow
2011-04-04, 10:05 AM
If I understand it right that attack roll should be 10k5, or 11k5 with a stunt. You roll stat+skill and keep stat only.

I'm mostly saying this to make sure I understand it right myself, so if I'm wrong and you want to correct me, fire away.

Okay, I missed that. It probably would have helped if the rules for a skill test and an attack were anywhere near each other, or if the attack roll referenced that at all (since it could be argued that an attack roll is different from a skill check even if it uses a skill)

However, even a 10k5 should hit a 32-28 on average. I'm not sure the exact odds for it, but it doesn't seem that difficult since 5k5 would be an average of 27.5. I'm sure 5 extra dice would bump that average up above the 32, which is literally the highest passive defense you can get.


First thing I noticed with regards to races: Humans are better in every way except for their power. I think non-human races should get a little bit more, an extra skill bonus at least.


Humans are -way- more flexible than anyone else. For the characteristic this isn't a huge deal, but as you mention being able to pick any two skills is pretty big. Giving a wider selection of possible skills for the races that you pick 2 of would be nice, but I wouldn't go any further than that.

After all, some of the racial powers are really awesome. Teleport once per scene, a on demand LOS block, double starting hit points, heal your level in hp at the start of every combat, etc. If there's any in particular that are below that sort of power level they should be looked at, but in general those benefits make up for it.


that's what I've seen as well. That said, I think yeah, that static defense will still be hit by that because you're likely to have at least one exploding die. On the other hand, hopefully you've had some time for advancement by that point that you're having to dodge a 10k5 attack.

Yes, you can use your dodge or parry options and will likely have the same, or close to the same, number of dice to throw at it. The point is that smaller size creatures take way more damage (see the chart posted by Mayhem), the counterbalance to that is supposed to be that they get hit less. But another class with equal acrobatics/weapon skill will have the same chance of dodging/parrying.

This makes being a smaller than average size nothing but a penalty, and those smaller races really have nothing to compensate for it. Like I said either those smaller races need a buff (such as having size factor in as a penalty to a dodge test. I suggested adding bonus dice to a dodge test equal to 6-size, meaning a size 7 guy wearing power armor is losing 2 dice to dodge, while a halfling wearing nonrestrictive armor is gaining 3 dice), or those passive TNs need to be jacked up some, with a bigger difference in them created by size. (for example increasing it from 10+5xdex, to 20+5xdex, but subtract size x 3 from it. This makes your character with size 7 dex 5 24, while a halfling is 36. Making that difference in passive defense more significant. Continue bumping that base until numbers for the average are where they're expected to be.)

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-04, 11:09 AM
Remember that the game recommends you never to roll more than 10 dice. The rest are turned into kept dice. Thus, the 11k5 roll really is a 10k6 roll. The absolute maximum is 10k10, with any extra dice automatically turning into +10 to the final roll on the dice (basically, free 10 scores without extra dice). Not only does having more than 20 dice means you have free raises galore; it means getting a huge dice pool shreds the probabilities to ribbons.

On racial powers: Aasimar's racial power kinda sucks. I mean, immunity to fear is nice, but...you do get Willpower to soak it, plus probably assets and whatnot. The rest of the racial powers are just AWESOME (free feat: that's basically 100 xp they get from the get-go; the only one that might be as sucky is the gnome racial power), so the Aasimar gets a little bit cut-off on that part. Maybe the ability to soak ONE Insanity point alongside immunity to fear could set them a bit with the other racial powers, since Tieflings and Dragonborn have the same size and get far better powers (free Flamer attack or reroll 1s on damage dice).

Also: make Size give an Athletics penalty or bonus. Size 5 have no penalty, less than Size 5 grants a +1 bonus, more than Size 5 gets a -1 penalty. Size seems to be a function of density rather than height, so you can expect people with huge Size to move slower and have less reflexes. No race has an innate Athletics bonus (save Humans if they want to), so it can balance things a bit. High Size characters still have Parry, and whatever hits them they soak real well. Would that work, or still require something to balance out?

Seerow
2011-04-04, 11:46 AM
Another potential problem brought up on the gaming den: Melee weapons add their str to unkept damage dice. This adds up pretty damn fast. Example: Werewolf Dragonborn. Starts with 4 str, increase to 5 with racial, +3 when shifted, gives you 8 str (and 9 size for what that's worth), using a Grand Daiklaive has 10k5 damage. Throw in "Hurting People" specialization from strength, and power armor for +1 str, and that gets you up to 10k7 damage. This doesn't even account for any of the sword forms, or experience spent (which I haven't looked at yet). He can spend one of his background points to make this Daiklaive a Best Quality Darksteel Daiklaive, to give it 10k7+2 damage, and increase the AP from -2 to -10.

As far as I can tell, a specialization is the only way to add to range weapon damage, so the best you're getting is 6k4+2. That's right, your werewolf's melee weapon is hitting harder than a laser cannon.


If the numbers from the melee damage are intended, damage from range attacks (and probably spells as well) needs to be brought up, if those kinds of numbers are not intended, melee needs to be brought down. (something like making it a 0k2 base for most melee weapons, with exceptional weapons getting 1 base die. This way you just get str in dice, and possibly even reduce it from full str to 1/2 str round up.




Also, just thinking about it as I type, armor itself as a value seems relatively weak. Let's consider the difference between our Werewolf Dragonborn with 13 armor (using best quality Darksteel Power Armor), and with 0 Armor, taking a hit from himself with 10k7+2 dice.

I'll be honest I don't remember how to do the statistics for such a test, so I'm going to guestimate that the average per die raises from 5.5 to say 6.5. This makes our average damage 48. With 13 armor, this goes down to 35, then down to 3 (size = 7+2 werewolf + 1 armor). With 0 armor, you take 5 damage. So for having the toughest armor you can get, you reduce your damage by 2 including both the size and armor bonuses (if for example you were wearing non-darksteel power armor so you kept the size bonus, it would be 4, only 1 less damage).

Sure a large part of that is the size divider, but these big guys are the ones you expect to be wearing heavier armor, since they're supposed to be relying on it rather than dodging/passive defensing to avoid everything.

Of course, this hinges upon smaller characters actually being significantly better at dodging, currently this isn't the case, and until it's changed you don't want to fiddle with armor. Once it is though, something like armor granting more size bonuses, and having smaller armor bonuses that apply after the size division would be nice. (ie power armor might be +2 size and 3 armor for light, 4 armor for normal. Plate might be +1 size and 4 armor, with Carapace +1 size and 3 armor., and so on, down to leathers/mesh which would be like 1-2 armor with no size bonus)

SurlySeraph
2011-04-04, 12:42 PM
@^: Eh, melee damage exceeding ranged damage is common in a lot of games, and is a good way to keep ranged from always being the best option. Also, I don't think it's possible to be proficient with Power Armor before 4th level, for what it's worth.

Initiates can get the first level of any magic school with Minor Magic, and Atlanteans get a free dot in any magic school. So they could presumably take Transmutation or Necromancy. They'd never be as good at it as a werewolf or vamp, but it's doable.

Also, I noticed on the blog that Lawful Nice said none of the fighting styles applied to ranged weapons. But there are Ordinary ranged weapons, which Iron Heart should apply to, and Syrneth ranged weapons, which Desert Wind should apply to. This strikes me as creating something and forgetting about it.

The way extra dice become increasingly good when you'd be rolling more than 10 dice does result in a couple possible issues.
For example, Human Chosen [Bard, Rogue, or Assassin]. Start with 5 Fellowship and 4 Charm by taking your +1 bonuses in those. That's 9k5; Seduction specialties in each raise it to 10k6. Then take Mark of Slaanesh, Appearance, and Dark Beauty, which because of the overflow thing raises that to 10k10+10. The highest possible mental defense appears to be 55 (5+ 25 from Composure, +5 Farsighted, +10 Poker Face, +10 kismessitude); that roll gets a 65 on average, and with a stunt or spending Resource Points it's easy to get it to 75 or 85 on average. Boom, insta-seduction of worst enemies, and all it cost you was 200 xp (because you have the Human bonus feat).

ninja_penguin
2011-04-04, 01:16 PM
Before I do anything else, though, I'd like to ask. What is the author's intention with this game? If it's an April fools thing for the lulz, then I tip my hat and declare it a rousing success as is. If it's a creative outlet that would be nice if it was remotely playable, then I have some pointers on what could be changed to make it more streamlined. If it's actually intended to eventually become a well-balanced and competitive game system, then I will have to read it much more thoroughly in order to present valid critique.

From what I've gathered, this was done on a dare. Releasing it on April Fool's was just as plannedicing in the cake. It appears that after everybody went 'oh god this is awesome', the author's taking steps to tighten things up to be more coherent. Surprisingly, it's rather coherent for something done on a dare. And obviously, for very apparent reasons, they'll never try and sell this.

Ampris
2011-04-04, 02:07 PM
.

I note that Ampris has been acting as a representative of White Wizard's Workshop, so I'll direct my question to her. Also, would she like opinions posted in this thread or PMed to her?

PMing would actually probably make this easier to keep track of, I just got online so I'm reading peoples questions/suggestions now and making a list of things. Lawfulnice is off at work till late tonight, so I will do the best I can to answer everything :)


DtD was originally a joke that turned into a 9 month personal project for LN. We thought April fools would be the best day to release it and he was honestly only expecting to get MAYBE 100 downloads. On that note he didn't get as extensive with it as he could have.

It will likely have hit the 5000 download mark by tonight (if it hasn't already).

Being that there has been such a HUGE response to DtD, work is being done to clean and smooth it out as much as possible. Both Lawful and myself are trying to get lists together of noted problems with the system, typos, and suggestions.



. And obviously, for very apparent reasons, they'll never try and sell this.

We did take a look into what it would take to make DtD legal for sale. Sadly, far to many of the references that make it so awesome would have to be removed :(

There has been a surprising amount of people asking how to donate though. We are going to try and get a paypal set up for it soon.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-04, 02:25 PM
Tough job, then. Seerow is actually drawing stuff from The Gaming Den (though, from what I've seen, Frank and the guys are really going "meh" on the book; confirmation?), so it's two boards pretty much working in unison (three if /tg/ decides to tackle the rules as well). PMs won't be enough, so it's better to make a list on all the stuff that's going on, or go to the blog and comment on that.

But I think examples should be something that LN should put on the blog at least, before doing an errata'ed printing. That way, some of the problems might be solved. Kept dice should also be clarified pretty well.

Teln
2011-04-04, 02:32 PM
We did take a look into what it would take to make DtD legal for sale. Sadly, far to many of the references that make it so awesome would have to be removed :(

There has been a surprising amount of people asking how to donate though. We are going to try and get a paypal set up for it soon.

Be extremely careful with this. White Wolf is pretty zealous about safeguarding its intellectual property. Their legal department is the reason there's no Keychain of Creation donation button or merchandise.

Ampris
2011-04-04, 02:37 PM
Be extremely careful with this. White Wolf is pretty zealous about safeguarding its intellectual property. Their legal department is the reason there's no Keychain of Creation donation button or merchandise.

We looked into the legal aspect of it all. DtD can not be sold (ever), but taking donations? Strangely legal. As long as we never actually sell anything, its fine. It wasn't even something Lawful considered till people started asking about it lol

Seerow
2011-04-04, 02:43 PM
Tough job, then. Seerow is actually drawing stuff from The Gaming Den (though, from what I've seen, Frank and the guys are really going "meh" on the book; confirmation?)


Here's a quote from Frank on it:


It's not a joke. At least, not exactly. It's literally someone who thought that Exalted would be better with a more confusing dicepool system and Games Workshop space marines. It uses the claim of parody only to protect itself from copyright violation.



Not a whole lot of crunch going on over there, just a lot of hemming and hawwing over it, with one or two people giving it a serious lookover.

Icedaemon
2011-04-04, 04:38 PM
Do the ships purchased via 'holdings' have preinstalled guns? I am assuming 'no' given the benefit of even a one background point dip in holdings would provide, but I would like to know for sure.

On a similar note: do minions purchased via 'Followers' have their own equipment?

Weimann
2011-04-04, 06:19 PM
PMing would actually probably make this easier to keep track of, I just got online so I'm reading peoples questions/suggestions now and making a list of things. Lawfulnice is off at work till late tonight, so I will do the best I can to answer everything :)Very well. I shall read the book more thoroughly and Pm you my ideas for what might make it better. I might cross post them here for critique as well, however.



DtD was originally a joke that turned into a 9 month personal project for LN. We thought April fools would be the best day to release it and he was honestly only expecting to get MAYBE 100 downloads. On that note he didn't get as extensive with it as he could have.

It will likely have hit the 5000 download mark by tonight (if it hasn't already).Quality begets interest. I mean, it's far from perfect, but the premise is interesting enough to make people want it to work, which is a big thing.


Being that there has been such a HUGE response to DtD, work is being done to clean and smooth it out as much as possible. Both Lawful and myself are trying to get lists together of noted problems with the system, typos, and suggestions.That sounds awesome.

Cruxador
2011-04-04, 07:14 PM
1) Passive Defense is way too low. Normally, I'd consider that justified, figuring you should be dodging/parrying ****, or mitigating damage, rather than expecting people to just miss you. The problem is, smaller races' benefit is supposed to be they have a higher passive defense. The problem is they aren't higher enough for that to be of any real value.
Higher size is clearly intended to be better, since there's an asset to increase size, and a hindrance to lower it. However, it's quite possible that the small races could use something more to counter that disadvantage.

Also: make Size give an Athletics penalty or bonus. Size 5 have no penalty, less than Size 5 grants a +1 bonus, more than Size 5 gets a -1 penalty. Size seems to be a function of density rather than height, so you can expect people with huge Size to move slower and have less reflexes. No race has an innate Athletics bonus (save Humans if they want to), so it can balance things a bit. High Size characters still have Parry, and whatever hits them they soak real well. Would that work, or still require something to balance out?Singling out a skill like that isn't really a great idea on general principle.
Also, I noticed on the blog that Lawful Nice said none of the fighting styles applied to ranged weapons. But there are Ordinary ranged weapons, which Iron Heart should apply to, and Syrneth ranged weapons, which Desert Wind should apply to. This strikes me as creating something and forgetting about it.That's almost certainly what it was, but for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure he intends to create some similar skills for ranged analogs to sword schools. Along with all the other things people have suggested that are good ideas.
Tough job, then. Seerow is actually drawing stuff from The Gaming Den (though, from what I've seen, Frank and the guys are really going "meh" on the book; confirmation?), so it's two boards pretty much working in unison (three if /tg/ decides to tackle the rules as well)./tg/ is bad at crunch. Don't count on anything in terms of rules there. Great fluff comes out of /tg/, but rules only come from single dedicated individuals. Like LawfulNice.


But I think examples should be something that LN should put on the blog at least, before doing an errata'ed printing. That way, some of the problems might be solved. Kept dice should also be clarified pretty well.Nothing actually gets printed. Things can be errataed and then errataed back some other way, if need be.

Seerow
2011-04-04, 07:33 PM
Higher size is clearly intended to be better, since there's an asset to increase size, and a hindrance to lower it. However, it's quite possible that the small races could use something more to counter that disadvantage.


Well I asked on IRC last night if small racees were supposed to be compensated via stronger powers or something, or if they were supposed to be strictly worse. The response I got was that they have a higher passive defense to make up for taking more damage. That clearly doesn't happen, and that it is supposed to happen is the perspective I've been arguing from, that apparently the different sizes are supposed to be different but equal.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-04, 08:03 PM
/tg/ is bad at crunch. Don't count on anything in terms of rules there. Great fluff comes out of /tg/, but rules only come from single dedicated individuals. Like LawfulNice.

Ouch, so apparently the strongest discussion comes from this forum? Apparently we're the only ones really dedicated to dissect this monster and point out all the flaws and boons...

ninja_penguin
2011-04-04, 08:16 PM
I've seen some decent lists of things people have pointed out here and there as well. I think some people just contact Lawfulnice directly.

Cruxador
2011-04-04, 08:42 PM
Ouch, so apparently the strongest discussion comes from this forum? Apparently we're the only ones really dedicated to dissect this monster and point out all the flaws and boons...
This forum does seem to be doing the most with numbers. /tg/ is giving lots of suggestions and stuff, just no in-depth analyses of crunch. That's not because people are less dedicated, it's more like a lack of ability. Folks are still contributing all sorts of things. Also /tg/ folks don't often put in-depth mechanical things like that in the threads, because everyone there knows /tg/ sucks at crunch, so it would be pointless.

Rettu Skcollob
2011-04-04, 08:49 PM
/tg/ is bad at crunch. Don't count on anything in terms of rules there. Great fluff comes out of /tg/, but rules only come from single dedicated individuals. Like LawfulNice.


It's not that surprising, since rules are harder to collaborate on in a format like the chan boards. Still, it has produced quite a few gems in it's lifetime, this perhaps the best.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki//tg/%27s_homebrews

Cruxador
2011-04-04, 09:03 PM
It's not that surprising, since rules are harder to collaborate on in a format like the chan boards. Still, it has produced quite a few gems in it's lifetime, this perhaps the best.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki//tg/%27s_homebrews

This was produced by one dedicated fa/tg/uy though. It's hardly a group project.
Furthermore, I was involved in a fair few of the ones on the Homebrews page there, and none of them had more than a few people working on it when it got to crunch. I think the most was Unified Setting, which had a handful of people independently making races and whatnot, until it moved to tgchan and got a more collaborative effort for a while.

Leeham
2011-04-05, 09:44 AM
This is... what? WHAT?!

Excuse me while I just gouge my eyes out. I'll never see anything this beautiful again...

Realms of Chaos
2011-04-05, 11:07 AM
Just looked through this and I have some notes as well.
1. It seems that the normal maximum for dots in all matters is 5 with 6 being gained only under special circumstances. Though this is hinted at throughout the PDF, I don't believe it is ever stated explicitly. It probably should be to make things a bit more clear.
2. As there are basic descriptions for rank 1-5 for a good many things, it would be nice if there was some small aside that tells us what having 6 dots means in general (you don't need to tell us what it means for each skill/background/characteristic but a single mention of what 6 stars means in general would be nice). Does having 6 stars basically make you comparable to gods? Does it make reality weep? What?
3. A definition of what raises do should probably be placed into the skills section somewhere. I was confused for half of the time that I spent reading the text.
4. I can't see any use for a Paragon's Action points. I almost thought that they were the points that thier pressure ability creates but those points are referred to as pressure points and are granted at a different rate. Ah, these points just there for the the default purposes of resource points like healing and whatnot.
5. No problems here with schools of magic only being available to certain groups of characters. Kind of helps curb the problem that DND has with wizards that literally know everything in my opinon.
6. For abilities like an Atlantean's paradox, I can't tell if they can willingly revert their paradox to normal or if it only happens when you roll a 9?

Cruxador
2011-04-05, 12:29 PM
Just looked through this and I have some notes as well.
1. It seems that the normal maximum for dots in all matters is 5 with 6 being gained only under special circumstances. Though this is hinted at throughout the PDF, I don't believe it is ever stated explicitly. It probably should be to make things a bit more clear.It's stated in Character Generation, for each thing that it applies to.

6. For abilities like an Atlantean's paradox, I can't tell if they can willingly revert their paradox to normal or if it only happens when you roll a 9?You can do it willingly. You would usually prefer to, in fact.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-05, 01:16 PM
2. As there are basic descriptions for rank 1-5 for a good many things, it would be nice if there was some small aside that tells us what having 6 dots means in general (you don't need to tell us what it means for each skill/background/characteristic but a single mention of what 6 stars means in general would be nice). Does having 6 stars basically make you comparable to gods? Does it make reality weep? What?

Actually, in a dot system, the highest possible dot is 10. 6 is generally considered "beyond exceptional", to a degree in which the order of magnitude changes entirely. Basically: if the difference between Strength 2 and Strength 3 is measured in hundreds of pounds you can lift, the difference between Strength 5 and Strength 6 is measured in thousands. 8 or 9 is considered to be the standard for gods and creator spirits, IIRC, although generally such spirits are treated with "Yes" to pretty much everything.


3. A definition of what raises do should probably be placed into the skills section somewhere. I was confused for half of the time that I spent reading the text.

Glossary states a raise is equal to exceeding the target number by 5. That generally means two things: if there's something you get in a raise (such as, say, one free kept dice per every raise), then you get that; if the ability tends to say "you get one free raise", then that means that you gain a +5 to the roll when you succeed in using that ability. The best way to see it is "free raise = +5 to roll". Granted: it IS confusing, but the glossary is there for something, no?

Cruxador
2011-04-05, 01:20 PM
Actually, in a dot system, the highest possible dot is 10. 6 is generally considered "beyond exceptional", to a degree in which the order of magnitude changes entirely. Basically: if the difference between Strength 2 and Strength 3 is measured in hundreds of pounds you can lift, the difference between Strength 5 and Strength 6 is measured in thousands. 8 or 9 is considered to be the standard for gods and creator spirits, IIRC, although generally such spirits are treated with "Yes" to pretty much everything.
In a dot system, more than 5 is generally the equivalent to epic level stuff. DtD does not yet have support for that.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-05, 01:33 PM
In a dot system, more than 5 is generally the equivalent to epic level stuff. DtD does not yet have support for that.

That doesn't mean there is no precedent. Besides; isn't the idea of the game that you're already an individual that can do epic things; the only thing is that there's a handful of people that are exactly like you?

The only difference is in the kind of precedent: it can be like WoD where the highest score is always a 10, or like Shadowrun in which the highest score is 7-8 and only with extensive modifications because no one can reach a score higher than 6 through purchasing.

Icedaemon
2011-04-05, 01:42 PM
Do the ships purchased via 'holdings' have preinstalled guns?

On a similar note: do minions purchased via 'Followers' have their own equipment?

I would like to repeat this question, If I may - I am sure this was not detailed in the rulebook.

Seerow
2011-04-05, 01:48 PM
That doesn't mean there is no precedent. Besides; isn't the idea of the game that you're already an individual that can do epic things; the only thing is that there's a handful of people that are exactly like you?

The only difference is in the kind of precedent: it can be like WoD where the highest score is always a 10, or like Shadowrun in which the highest score is 7-8 and only with extensive modifications because no one can reach a score higher than 6 through purchasing.

But characters in shadowrun do frequently start with 9-12 in their primary stat by purchasing those modifications at chargen.

Similarly, in DtD, you can get far beyond 5-6 in a stat at chargen even with just the first book. There was an example in my earlier post where a race with inc str who is also a werewolf ends up with 8 str, 9 once he gets access to Power Armor. Not sure how many other stats this is possible with, but the point is that it is possible.

Weimann
2011-04-05, 04:35 PM
Okay. Here are some of the big things I've seen so far.

The Characteristics Charisma and Fellowship are very hard to tell apart, at least by their flavour text. Later on, it comes out like Fellowship is something like Manipulation, but it's muddy. It could stand to be clarified.
Dexterity is used for making melee and ranged attacks, as well as taking both Dodge and Parry reactions and for improving passive defenses. In the same vein, Willpower is used in calculating hit points and resolve and in saving against every spell that allows a saving throw. It's safe to say that these two Characteristics are rather powerful compared to many others, and it could stand to be rebalanced. I'd personally make melee attacks and Parry actions use Strength instead, and possibly vary what Characteristic spells use for saving throws.
As has already been mentioned, some spell schools reuse old spells but with higher numbers, which can be a problem with so few spells known. Almost every spell that begins "As [previous spell], but..." can probably be rolled into the first instance of the spell, allowing a wider utility and a greater sense of progress. For example, Dispel could have a rider saying "at Abjuration 5, this spell can be turned into Disjunction, identical to Dispel except in that successfully dispelling a magical effect also prohibits the target from casting spells until it is next your turn. Disjunction has Target Number 25." The different Servant spells would work great as a single Servant spell, scaling with School level (they already essentially do). Cure X Wounds could work well the same way. Just a few examples.
The same goes for Sword Schools. Some things like Actions and the "must pass a Test" disadvantage are the same for everyone, so there's no need to take up space in the table for them. Add some more content instead; most Sword Schools are pretty darn short.
On the note of spell schools, it should probably be possible for non-Vampires to learn Necromancy and non-Werewolves to learn Transmutation. I'd suggest giving discounts on such spells to the respective Exaltations, and possibly give them custom spells that only they can access in addition to the ones they learn normally, but keeping the entire schools away from everyone else limits the characters' thematic potential a lot.

Also, more a question than a problem, but I don't really understand what the Action (Something) entry on the first level of the different Sword Schools mean. It says that it allows the use of the action in martial maneuvers, but I was under the impression that special attacks were what Sword Schools were all about. Some of those actions are decided not attacks, like the Aim action, and as such could not be part of a special attack, could they?

Phew, that's quite a bit, and I have a feeling I'll find more. Don't get discouraged, though; mechanics are hard to get right. :smallsmile:

Cruxador
2011-04-05, 04:39 PM
I would like to repeat this question, If I may - I am sure this was not detailed in the rulebook.
That stuff is supposed to be vague. It's a background. You figure it out. Your ships and followers have what they ought to have, though. Followers have any equipment they would logically have (so probably common stuff of normal quality) and your ship has whatever guns it ought to have (full rules for weapons and vehicles aren't around yet, though).

The_Shaman
2011-04-05, 04:50 PM
Ok, I just came across this almost by chance, and I have to say it looks quite awesome. I'll have to spread the word! BTW, I am interested in a game, but I'd prefer to wait for the 1.2 update Lawfulnice mentions on his blog. Apparently it may change some of the crunch, so best see how it works.

Realms of Chaos
2011-04-05, 07:05 PM
Glossary states a raise is equal to exceeding the target number by 5. That generally means two things: if there's something you get in a raise (such as, say, one free kept dice per every raise), then you get that; if the ability tends to say "you get one free raise", then that means that you gain a +5 to the roll when you succeed in using that ability. The best way to see it is "free raise = +5 to roll". Granted: it IS confusing, but the glossary is there for something, no?

There's a third use for raises that you've missed. In certain disadvantageous situations (such as if you've taken certain disadvantages, you have certain artificial parts, or you are attempting a very difficult skill check), a certain number of Raises may be necessary to succeed (effectively using raises to increase the TN).

From my understanding, raises can function as a measure of success (either effectively increasing the TN of certain difficult checks [like a command check made to retain control of a panicking army] or that grant you extra benefits for accomplishing more raises [as is the case with some spells]) or they can be granted to effectively grant a +5 bonus to checks.

Anyhow, I eventually got to the glossary and learned what raises were but I still feel that this might be a matter of simple organization. Quite a few abilities gain raises so it seems sensible to introduce what one is near the beginning to the PDF so that someone doesn't have to interrupt their reading with a trip to the glossary. While this isn't as necessary with self-explanatory topics, raises aren't quite as self-evident.

In fact, I'd say that the first two pages of chapter 13 should rightfully appear in one of the introductory chapters as the data held within them seems pretty darn important to go for 12 chapters without. :smallconfused:

SlashRunner
2011-04-05, 08:43 PM
Forgive me for utterly and totally failing to comprehend this, but there are some things I don't get (probably because I haven't read very far yet).
First, I don't understand this keeping system. When it says 1k0, wouldn't that mean that I don't get to keep anything?
Also, what dice do you roll in the game? I am under the impression that all dice rolled are d10's, but I'm most likely wrong.
Thanks in advance for answering.

Realms of Chaos
2011-04-05, 08:57 PM
Slashrunner: Actually, there is a specific section on the book somewhere stating what to do when you have 1k0 (though I can't find the page number). If I remember properly, you roll a single dice but a roll of a 10 is treated as a 0 and the dice can never explode.

Also, it is indeed true that all dice used are d10s. :smallbiggrin:

Otogi
2011-04-05, 09:08 PM
Slashrunner: Actually, there is a specific section on the book somewhere stating what to do when you have 1k0 (though I can't find the page number). If I remember properly, you roll a single dice but a roll of a 10 is treated as a 0 and the dice can never explode.

Also, it is indeed true that all dice used are d10s. :smallbiggrin:

I'm actually not sure I fallow. Why would anyone want to keep from rolling dice?

Land Outcast
2011-04-05, 09:56 PM
I'm actually not sure I fallow. Why would anyone want to keep from rolling dice?

The dice you keep are the dice which matter, the rest are "discarded".

Its the same as with ability score generation in D&D when you roll 4d6 and keep the best three rolls.

flabort
2011-04-05, 09:59 PM
Inheritance background+Promethean = "ARG! There isn't enough equipment to choose from!"

:smallconfused:
And I have trouble understanding how the skills relate to the attributes. It says to add... Dice? A bonus? And from what? :smallconfused:
I'm probably going to have to watch the entire PbP just to understand the basics.

Cruxador
2011-04-05, 10:05 PM
Forgive me for utterly and totally failing to comprehend this, but there are some things I don't get (probably because I haven't read very far yet).
First, I don't understand this keeping system. When it says 1k0, wouldn't that mean that I don't get to keep anything?
Also, what dice do you roll in the game? I am under the impression that all dice rolled are d10's, but I'm most likely wrong.
Thanks in advance for answering.

Generally, if you see "1k0" it should be actually be "+1k0", meaning you roll one additional die, but keep the same number as you otherwise would. If you see it somewhere that that isn't the case, that means it's probably a typo or otherwise erroneous, and you should notify LawfulNice.

ninja_penguin
2011-04-05, 10:15 PM
Well, easy example:

If I'm making a firearms attack with my Eladrin Vampire guardsman, I roll Dexterity + Ballstics

Ballsitics is the skill, and is unkept dice. My dexterity is the attribute, which will be the kept die. (so your unrolled dice are ballistics + dex, your kept dice are dex)

So with three dots in both ballistics and dexterity, I roll 6k3 die for attacking:

3,9,8,4,8,4

So, that's my six die. I now keep the three highest 9, 8, 8 and add it together to get 25 as the result of my attack roll.

Otogi
2011-04-05, 10:48 PM
Ah, now I see. Seems like a good system.

ninja_penguin
2011-04-06, 05:57 AM
And for what its worth, if any of those dice had rolled a 10, I would have gotten to reroll it, add them together, and count it as a dice that rolled, say, 15.

One of the reasons I'm enamored of this is because I liked the system, and now I don't have to try and pull teeth to get my group into L5R.

Apparently I only have to say 'Werewolf in power armor with a chainsaw sword' to make them go all googly eyed.

SurlySeraph
2011-04-06, 08:48 AM
On the note of spell schools, it should probably be possible for non-Vampires to learn Necromancy and non-Werewolves to learn Transmutation. I'd suggest giving discounts on such spells to the respective Exaltations, and possibly give them custom spells that only they can access in addition to the ones they learn normally, but keeping the entire schools away from everyone else limits the characters' thematic potential a lot.

Atlanteans, Daemonhosts, and Initiates (by taking Minor Magic) can get Necromancy or Transmutation, because all of them get a free dot in any magic school (and A's and D's can progress said magic school as if their class had it). They'll never be as good as werewolves or vamps, but they can do it.

flabort
2011-04-06, 10:18 AM
How did you decide Dex to be appropriate for that roll? :smallconfused:
All I can find on that is that ballistics is a "Physical" skill, out of physical, social, and mental. I cannot find where it says what physical skill to use.

help?

Weimann
2011-04-06, 10:52 AM
It's down chapter XIV, under the heading "The Attack", page 199.
A ranged attack requires the attacker to make a Dex+Ballistics Test.


Atlanteans, Daemonhosts, and Initiates (by taking Minor Magic) can get Necromancy or Transmutation, because all of them get a free dot in any magic school (and A's and D's can progress said magic school as if their class had it). They'll never be as good as werewolves or vamps, but they can do it.Right, I forgot about Atlanteans, and I frankly didn't even know Daemonhosts could do it at all. I guess I must read them better. That makes it better, but I still think that if it's entire Spell Schools, people in general should be able to learn them.

Luckily, I see on his LawfulNice's blog that v1.2 will make the Schools free for everyone but retain Vampire and Werewolf advantage in their respective School.

On another note, I must ask a few things about Sword Schools.

1) I asked before, but I mist as well say it again: what's the point of the School Action that all Schools gain at level 1? I would instinctively say that it's an action that this particular school can enhance with advantages in addition to the normal attack action, but some Schools have School ACtions like Aim, and that doesn't make any sense to enhance at all.

2) Would it be okay to include defensive advantages, you think? There are very few of them, but for example Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon sport a few.

3) On that note, what about more complex and esoteric Sword Schools? Yes, I'm coming from an Exalted perspective.

4) Thinking about Setting Sun, does that still use the Weaponry skill or does it attack with Brawl? Also, should unarmed martial arts get Fist Schools or should they just be made Sword Schools with Weapon (Unarmed)?

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-06, 12:03 PM
On another note, I must ask a few things about Sword Schools.

1) I asked before, but I mist as well say it again: what's the point of the School Action that all Schools gain at level 1? I would instinctively say that it's an action that this particular school can enhance with advantages in addition to the normal attack action, but some Schools have School ACtions like Aim, and that doesn't make any sense to enhance at all.

Basically, the first two abilities you gain with each sword school indicate with which weapons you are enabled to use special attacks and which actions you can tag along the action. Thus, something like "Poignant Flourish" may use Fencing weapons and allow a Feint action before or after the attack (preferably before, making the attack undodgeable/unparriable).


2) Would it be okay to include defensive advantages, you think? There are very few of them, but for example Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon sport a few.

Consider that you gain access to all the advantages and restrictions when you advance said school, which can be then applied to multi-school maneuvers. Thus, while the Paladin only has Devoted Spirit and White Raven, it can combine from both sides. The idea is to collapse as many possible combinations of abilities on each school as possible, so that you need to dive into another school (and potentially multiclass) in order to take advantage of the Advantages (pun not intended) of different schools. Still, it's possible to stretch one or two maneuvers there, considering that there may be still a few actions that could use some aid (for example, Iron Heart or White Raven could use an advantage that grants Aura resistance, something a few martial characters lack quite a bit).


3) On that note, what about more complex and esoteric Sword Schools? Yes, I'm coming from an Exalted perspective.

Again: LN apparently went with the idea of giving as few abilities as possible to fit a theme, so it might be a bit complex to expand upon that. Still, there could be a ranged school which a Guardsman could apply to (or another ranged class; say, Ranger), like Black Rain, that uses a specific group of weapons (Pistol weapons, maybe; the simplest Firearms) and derive abilities from it. However, the idea is to not repeat any action within a school, so the secondary benefit might be a problem (since the most thematic trait for a Firearm would be Aim, unless said school allowed Full Auto Burst as a trait or something). However, you'd need a set of traits that could make for a unique school and that doesn't overlap with other schools.

The best way to do so is directly expanding the options (generating 9 new options each time), or do variants within the schools such as having, say, Devoted Spirit have three variants that grant a special Advantage and a Restriction, such as a Restriction that the ability only works on creatures of specified alignment, like the attack only succeeds when you strike someone who follows the Ruinous Powers for example. It's a bit tough to deal with that, since the idea is that special attacks are meant to be customizable, constructed pretty much from scratch, but most classes have access only to two schools (Barbarian has three, while Guardsman has only one), which limits the options.

Thus, before requesting a new school or a way to expand options within the schools, I might better request expanding the options so that all classes are equally provided with maneuvers. It's kinda odd that Paladins don't get Stone Dragon, for example, because that would help with their tanking, or that Guardsmen are limited ONLY to a single maneuver, without having something else that supports them.


4) Thinking about Setting Sun, does that still use the Weaponry skill or does it attack with Brawl? Also, should unarmed martial arts get Fist Schools or should they just be made Sword Schools with Weapon (Unarmed)?

It uses Dex + Brawl, but you can use Setting Sun advantages with other weapons if you have the access to them (for example, an Assassin could use Setting Sun advantages with a special attack based on Parrying weapons). The term "sword school" is just a catch-all term for schools that teach special attacks; only three of them actually USE swords (Iron Heart which uses ordinary weapons, Stone Dragon which uses Two Handed weapons including two handed swords like the Grand Daiklaves, and Diamond Mind whose Fencing weapons include the rapier; Shadow Hand might be a fourth if you include the dagger as a sword).

Still, I expect to see a feat or an enabling ability that allows a character to become an Initiate in a single school without taking levels in X class, in order to provide some extra usage of abilities. It's kinda odd to limit Paladins to Cavalry and Flail weapons when you'd want Ordinary or Chain weapons with their moves (in the case someone wants to use a Power Sword or Chainsword without having to dip into Fighter, Guardsman or Barbarian).

Weimann
2011-04-06, 12:40 PM
Basically, the first two abilities you gain with each sword school indicate with which weapons you are enabled to use special attacks and which actions you can tag along the action. Thus, something like "Poignant Flourish" may use Fencing weapons and allow a Feint action before or after the attack (preferably before, making the attack undodgeable/unparriable).Hm... what do you mean by "tag along"?

I have three possible interpretations, using your example above.

1) As a half action, you can use (Feint+Standard Attack+advantages) in a special attack, and then another half action to do something else.

2) As a half action, you can use (Feint+advantages) in a special attack and then another half action to use (Standard Attack+advantages) in a special attack.

3) As a half action, you can use a Feint action, and then another half action to use (Standard Attack+advantages) in a special attack.

Number 1 is unquestionably the strongest. It's basically making the School Action a free action. That would get really unbalanced really fast.

Number 2 is basically what I thought it meant, but then I see that some Schools have Aim actions and the like, which are not offensive at all and would not gain any benefit from adding any advantage on.

Number 3 should, as I read it, be possible to anyone, not just those who have Feint as a School Action.

Weimann
2011-04-06, 04:42 PM
Also, in response to the other points, I'm not sure I can see the problem with having similar effects in several schools. It would only expand the options. I accept that it's probably smart to balance and develop the nine present schools (not saying they are unbalanced, I've not had a good look at them yet), but I don't see that as a reason to not develop others.

In fact, if anything, the effects from the Sublime Way schools seem a bit lackluster. Given that the game proposes that the characters are powerful SOBs at the level of demigods, it's kind of strange to see effects that makes damage types X/E/R when it's explicitly stated in the Damage Type entry that it only really matters for what critical damage table you check against.

I also wish there were more of them in each school (at least a school specific advantage at level 1; you want to feel right away that you have gained something).

Weimann
2011-04-06, 07:11 PM
Just in order to be annoying, here's a sample of a conversion I made of Solar Hero Style from Exalted. It's written under the assumption that option 2 in my previous post was true.

Solar Hero Style

The Solar Hero isn't a person, as such. He is a tale, a story that has been around the universe for untold generations. Asking some Atlanteans, even they can trace fragments of him in their vague memories of long ago. Whenever he is spoken of, he is portrayed as the wanderer who travels the world, ever seeking new opponents to compete against and learn from. His goal is unclear from case to case; in some stories, he clearly wishes to help make the world a better place, while some other portray him as simply intrigued by the impending battle and what good he causes comes as a side effect. In every case, it's clear that fighting is a philosophy to him, a way to reach... enlightenment? Perfection? Peace? Who can know? To the Solar Hero, the answer lies in the heart of battle.

Level 1: Apprentice

Weapon (Unarmed) [-]

Action (Knock Down) [-]: The Solar Hero lays low those who challenge his might. The force in a blow from such an opponent is enough to topple the mightiest of fighters.

Level 2: Initiate

Fair Fight Approach [-2]: The Solar Hero always meets his opponent honestly, facing him eye to eye, and takes no pleasure in unnecessary cruelty against those who fail to match up against him. An attack with this disadvantage cannot be made against a Helpless or Prone target, and also cannot be made during a surprise round. Furthermore, it can only be made against opponents who has a Brawl or Weaponry Skill rated at least equal to the Solar Hero's Brawl Skill.

Sledgehammer Fist Punch [1]: It's not the Solar Hero's way to let mere buildings hinder his path. He strikes them down like the judgement of heaven. Also known as the Pillar-Breaking Blow, this advantage allows a special attack to target an object or structure, allowing a (Strength+Athletics) Test to break it. The user also recieves an automatic Raise on the Test, which resolves instantly. This advantage can be stacked a number of times equal to the user's martial adept level.

Level 3: Journeyman

Skill (Athletics) [-1]: The ideal Solar Hero is a paragon of strength, control and prowess. However, in practice, the style can be taxing on the user's body, and some maneuvers require an almost superhuman physique. A special attack with this disadvantage requires the attacker to pass an Athletics check against the target's static defense to succeed. If it fails, the attacker did not to perform the attack correctly and it is wasted.

Heaven Thunder Hammer [2]: The Solar Hero defeats his opponents with concussive force, sending them flying. This advantage enhances any special attack based on the Knock Down action, forcing any successfully hit target to roll an opposed (Strength+Athletics) Test. For every Raise the Solar Hero gains on this test, the opponent is knocked backwards 2m, where he falls Prone. If he is knocked into something or someone else, the SM decides whether he takes damage from the impact or not.

Level 4: Master

Mastery (Fists Of Iron Technique) [-]: The Solar Hero is never unprepared for battle, for his body is as the deadliest of weapons. The user's unarmed attacks are treated as made by weapons of the Best quality.

Armor-Shattering Strike [3]: Great is his folly, who thinks that sheets of mere metal can save him from the wrath of the Solar Hero. They shall crumble as everything else before his might. This advantage doubles any Penetration the special attack may have.

Level 5: Grand Master

Knockout Blow [3]: The singular force concentrated in the fist of the Solar Hero is sufficient to end a battle in a single strike. This advantage causes the target to suffer 2 levels of Fatigue whenever he is struck by a special attack containing it. This advantage can be stacked up to three times.
Of course, this thing is probably unbalanced like all hell, and I would really have liked to have Fists of Iron Technique earlier on, but all in all I'm not certain it's always inappropriate to aim for something like this. After all, if the schools are so restricted, then you'll want to fill them with interesting things and not "your attack is now another damage type" which will only ever have a marginal effect. In the end, it's about what's cool.

SurlySeraph
2011-04-06, 07:43 PM
The changes on the blog look good overall.


* Size values have been reworked. Human average has been set at 4 and other values adjusted to fit. This should make combat a bit faster and more lethal.
Hm. Might be fine, might be a problem, I'm not sure.


* Spelling fixes where they were needed.
Yay.


* Human and Dwarven racial powers changed. Humans now get 100 more starting XP, Dwarves have been made less OP. Instead of doubled HP, they can reduce hit points lost from any one attack to 1. Still tough, but not overpowered.
Humans are even *more* versatile now? I don't think that's a good change.
I'll hold off on judging the new Dwarf power until I see the exact wording. If it's an always-on ability to cap damage from an attack at 1 hp, that'll cause issues. If it's 1/scene, it's fairly weak but not terrible.
I think the biggest racial imbalance is that Elven Accuracy is pretty lame compared to the other racial powers.


* Werewolf shape changing has been fixed up a bit. They have to remove armor before changing shape or else they break the straps and have to get it fixed.
Reasonable, especially since they can presumably take Dedication to deal with that.


* What happens when a Promethean's body is destroyed is now spelled out. They can also have their lost limbs repaired instead of getting replacements.
* Promethean Alchemy has been replaced with an ability to recharge Pyros whenever they take E damage.
Fine.


* Daemonhost feeding has been fixed so it specifically converts Resonance into Essence.
* Free Study has become an option between classes. Once you finish the class you're in, you can buy things from classes you left. You can even improve skills and characteristics that aren't on your class list, but it costs double.
* Many feats have been altered. Especially the Marks.
* How non-attack actions work with Special Attacks has been changed. They now mostly apply any attack effects to the next Standard attack you make.
* Some of the artifacts have been rebalanced.
All good!


TO DO:
* I'm adding examples for character creation, special attack creation, and magic combo creation.
* Bookmarks. They'll come last, since I need to add them to the finished PDF.
* Adding in a small bit about playing mortals
* Also putting in a bit about XP-buy as an alternate for simple dots during character creation.
All good, though pure XP-buy seems a bit too conducive to min-maxing; you could, say, ignore your skills and spend all your points taking Gifted multiple times and raising Attributes, and come out with a lot more kept dice and better static traits than everyone else.


* Transmutation and Necromancy being reworked so non-vamps and woofs can use them, but Vamps and Woofs are best.
That's the case already, though more reason for others to do so would be nice.


* Fixing class lists of feats and skills.
Assassins need Brawl. Assassins probably don't need to learn Catfall twice.
Right now, no classes get Two Weapon Fighting, Defensive Mobility, or Spell Specialization; those need to be added.
Clerics and Paladins could have a couple feats made optional instead of mandatory.
Barbarian could do with some changes, because Danger Sense and Light Sleeper seem pretty redundant for Paragons.

byaku rai
2011-04-06, 09:10 PM
D&D, 40K, and Exalted had a baby... And that baby killed everything. This is amazing. :smalleek:

Lagren
2011-04-06, 09:50 PM
This is a game built from the bones of every RPG known to man and reanimated with the unholy force of a thousand memes and references.
It's insane. I want to play it. I'm not sure how many DMs would be willing to deal with this abomination, though.

Icedaemon
2011-04-07, 04:37 AM
Humans are even *more* versatile now? I don't think that's a good change.

Agreed. Humans should not be considered a superior choice power-wise to several other races.


I think the biggest racial imbalance is that Elven Accuracy is pretty lame compared to the other racial powers.

It makes sense fluffwise though, does it not? This is the wussy worthess D&D elf, who thinks itself to be on par with clearly superior species such as [anything]. The only way anything that can be construed as a normal elf could be on par with anything would be if the elf in question were completely Tolkien-flavoured or a faerie bastard.


Barbarian could do with some changes, because Danger Sense and Light Sleeper seem pretty redundant for Paragons.

This is a good point. Feats the equivalent of which one exaltation would give by itself should be optional.

Seerow
2011-04-07, 09:45 AM
Agreed. Humans should not be considered a superior choice power-wise to several other races.


I think this is slightly exaggerated. With the game essentially based on a point buy, there's no limit to how many feats you can take. This makes the 1 free feat much weaker than D&D. 100 experience sounds like a lot, but at worst it gives humans a edge at character gen or 1-2 dots somewhere.

Almost all of the racial features, even the weaker ones, are unique features that a human has no way to replicate, regardless of experience levels. On the other hand, the higher experience your game is played at, the smaller the bonus experience a human gets is worth, and the more attractive those unique racial powers get.

Weimann
2011-04-07, 01:27 PM
Almost all of the racial features, even the weaker ones, are unique features that a human has no way to replicate, regardless of experience levels.Until someone makes a feat or spell or maneuver that does the same thing.

Just saying, I'm not sure humans are overpowered at all. But they do scale with development in a way the other's don't.

Weimann
2011-04-07, 03:55 PM
Basically, the first two abilities you gain with each sword school indicate with which weapons you are enabled to use special attacks and which actions you can tag along the action. Thus, something like "Poignant Flourish" may use Fencing weapons and allow a Feint action before or after the attack (preferably before, making the attack undodgeable/unparriable).Hm... what do you mean by "tag along"?

I have three possible interpretations, using your example above.

1) As a half action, you can use (Feint+Standard Attack+advantages) in a special attack, and then another half action to do something else.

2) As a half action, you can use (Feint+advantages) in a special attack and then another half action to use (Standard Attack+advantages) in a special attack.

3) As a half action, you can use a Feint action, and then another half action to use (Standard Attack+advantages) in a special attack.

Number 1 is unquestionably the strongest. It's basically making the School Action a free action. That would get really unbalanced really fast.

Number 2 is basically what I thought it meant, but then I see that some Schools have Aim actions and the like, which are not offensive at all and would not gain any benefit from adding any advantage on.

Number 3 should, as I read it, be possible to anyone, not just those who have Feint as a School Action.I'm still wondering this, too.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-07, 04:41 PM
Hm... what do you mean by "tag along"?

I have three possible interpretations, using your example above.

1) As a half action, you can use (Feint+Standard Attack+advantages) in a special attack, and then another half action to do something else.

2) As a half action, you can use (Feint+advantages) in a special attack and then another half action to use (Standard Attack+advantages) in a special attack.

3) As a half action, you can use a Feint action, and then another half action to use (Standard Attack+advantages) in a special attack.

Number 1 is unquestionably the strongest. It's basically making the School Action a free action. That would get really unbalanced really fast.

Number 2 is basically what I thought it meant, but then I see that some Schools have Aim actions and the like, which are not offensive at all and would not gain any benefit from adding any advantage on.

Number 3 should, as I read it, be possible to anyone, not just those who have Feint as a School Action.

Hmm...reading a bit closer, there seems to be a limit on the actions. Basically, you can only apply 1 weapon, execute 1 action, and then provide the Advantages and Restrictions of each weapon. So, it would follow the second and third interpretations as a whole. I was just going with the idea that you could combine actions on their own, which would have given the idea of the first one.

Basically, instead of (Feint + Standard Attack + Advantages), it would be (Feint + Fencing + Advantages/Restrictions); one action, one weapon, as many advantages or actions as possible. So, an apprentice of Diamond Mind could use a special maneuver in which, if he successfully feints with a fencing weapon, he could deal +1k0 damage, or gain a +1k0 bonus to Attack, or negate 2 points of armor of the next attack you make. Thus, it would be (Feint + Fencing + Advantages) as a half action, and then use your half action for an attack. This would be like your third interpretation.

However, since it takes exactly the same amount as the action, you could activate two maneuvers that take half actions each and use them in tandem: for example, an apprentice of Diamond Mind could use Poignant Flourish (Feint + Fencing + More Pen) alongside Mosquito's Bite (Standard Attack + Fencing + 2 pt. More Accurate + 1 pt. More Accurate - 2 pt. Less Damage). In that case, your attack has a +1k1 bonus to Attack rolls, deals -0k1 points of damage, and if the feint is successful, the attack bypasses two points of armor. This would be an example of the second statement.

Thus, since both Poignant Flourish and Mosquito's Bite take half actions, you can combine them in a single round, but you could also take Mosquito's Bite as part of a free strike; however, you couldn't use Poignant Flourish as part of the free strike because the next action is absent.

Thing is, I believed that you could simply "tag along" actions, in which you could make more than one action as part of the attack. Had that been right, I could have made a technique that stacked several kinds of actions in one single attack; instead, you can make as many techniques as actions available to you.

Weimann
2011-04-07, 05:34 PM
Ooookay. Hm. I don't quite get it, I think, but I gather that it all comes down to "option 2 is right", so I'll work from that.

That means that Shadow Hand, Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit have rather strange School Actions (Ready, Aim and Aid Another, respectively). None of these action are actually attacks, which makes all the universal advantages worthless, and most of the school specific ones as well, in most of the schools.

On the other hand, there are some advantages that has effects that doesn't relate to an attack as such. For example, the Dancing Flame advantage Leaping Flame states that "You may teleport 5m either right before or right after making this attack." It does say attack, but that should of course include school actions as well; otherwise, they'd be entirely worthless. This makes it possible for someone with Iron Heart to teleport by taking Aim actions, or someone with Shadow Hand by reading a weapon. Another example, Devoted Spirit has Revitalizing Strike and Covering The Phalanx, which makes it possible to heal and increase the defenses of your team by taking Aid Another actions. All this is possible since those advantages aren't strictly dependant on actually hitting your opponent, by RAW.

And... I'm not sure if this is intended. It could be that that's just the idea. However, I find it strange that Iron Heart has Aim for a School Action, yet no advantage that actually benefits from him using Aim actions. He'd have to go into another School to put his current one to use. That's a bit strange, no matter how much one is intended to mix and match schools.

Personally I'd like to see schools that had more advantages per level. This would make sword schools stronger, yes, but the game is supposed to be high power, as declared in the first chapter. More advantages per school would allow for more flavourful and specialized advantages and disadvantages, room for advantages that enhance school actions in particular and in general a more thematic and cool system.

Otogi
2011-04-07, 05:44 PM
Alright, so I know it's a bit early (as in less than a week with a new revision coming soon), but are there any homebrew ideas out there?

ninja_penguin
2011-04-07, 06:09 PM
I've been wanting to stat up Viera and Bangaa, but that's mostly my irrational love of those two races from FFT.

Finn and Jake (and the land of Oooh) as a small write-up as a crystal sphere to be visited would be fun, too.

Weimann
2011-04-07, 06:26 PM
Alright, so I know it's a bit early (as in less than a week with a new revision coming soon), but are there any homebrew ideas out there?I made a stab at Solar Hero Style on the top of this page, and I can see myself stat out a fair few of the established Exalted Styles. Some might be more like spell schools, however.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-07, 07:22 PM
Ooookay. Hm. I don't quite get it, I think, but I gather that it all comes down to "option 2 is right", so I'll work from that.

That means that Shadow Hand, Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit have rather strange School Actions (Ready, Aim and Aid Another, respectively). None of these action are actually attacks, which makes all the universal advantages worthless, and most of the school specific ones as well, in most of the schools.

Ready means when you draw a weapon or execute a specific action. In this case, making a maneuver based on Ready means you gain the benefit when you draw the weapon, for example. Iaijutsu Focus would be an example of how Ready can be used for a maneuver (when you draw the weapon, a Ready action, your next attack gains +1k0 to attack or damage; an example of how Universal Advantages apply). Aid Another grants the benefit of the advantage to the other character, making Devoted Spirit an awesome school to enhance others via special attacks (for example, you use Aid Another to provide your next ally with a +1k0 bonus to attack and/or damage on their next attack, which stacks with the bonus to attack granted by the Aid Another ability). In the case of Aim, you add the benefit of the Advantages and the Restrictions on the attack that benefits from Aim.

Basically, what the special attack does is that you gain the benefits of said Advantage and apply the specified Restriction whenever you initiate the action and to the recipient of the benefit (in the case of Aid Another exclusively, that means the beneficiary is the character you assist).


On the other hand, there are some advantages that has effects that doesn't relate to an attack as such. For example, the Dancing Flame advantage Leaping Flame states that "You may teleport 5m either right before or right after making this attack." It does say attack, but that should of course include school actions as well; otherwise, they'd be entirely worthless. This makes it possible for someone with Iron Heart to teleport by taking Aim actions, or someone with Shadow Hand by reading a weapon. Another example, Devoted Spirit has Revitalizing Strike and Covering The Phalanx, which makes it possible to heal and increase the defenses of your team by taking Aid Another actions. All this is possible since those advantages aren't strictly dependant on actually hitting your opponent, by RAW.

In the first case, mixing Aim with Leaping Flame means you can move before OR after the action, but since Aim doesn't end until you get the benefit of the attack, you can move before you make the attack with Aim. To make it better:

You can move before using the Aim ability, but your next action will be an Aim action
You can move after you execute the Aim action, as part of the boost; that way, you can set up for the attack.
You execute the Aim action, then you can move before or after making the Attack action.

That would be similar to the rest. Aid Another + Weaponry (Flail) + Foehammer would allow the ally to gain the benefit of 2 dice per exploding dice if said ally used a flail as a weapon.

Revitalizing Strike and Covering the Phalanx don't need to be executed as Attacks or Aid Another actions; so as long as you're executing the action you determined for the technique, you provide that benefit to the ally (counting yourself as an ally, potentially). Same with White Raven Advantages.


And... I'm not sure if this is intended. It could be that that's just the idea. However, I find it strange that Iron Heart has Aim for a School Action, yet no advantage that actually benefits from him using Aim actions. He'd have to go into another School to put his current one to use. That's a bit strange, no matter how much one is intended to mix and match schools.

Actually, that wouldn't be right. You could use (Aim + Ordinary + Steel Wind) so that your next attack gains the Tearing property, but your static defense is reduced by 10 from the moment you make said attack until your next turn. Hence, if you use Aim and then hold until your next move to make an attack, that attack gains the Tearing property and the reduction activates at that moment, BUT you wouldn't be capable of reacting (no Parry or Dodge). (Aim + Weapon + Hammer of the Emperor) would cause explosive damage on your next attack, while (Aim + Weapon + Exorcism of Steel) would emulate the Power Field property on your next attack. Think of it as a boost in that regard, because the Advantages activate upon the moment the action is completely executed, and interrupted if the ability is interrupted. That might be an exception to the rule: if the technique requires you to make another action afterwards, you turn that action into an Extended Action, and the technique does not complete until you fulfill the requisites for that Extended Action. Such would be the case with Feint and Aim: in both cases, you need to do an attack afterwards, so either you make it a "full action" by executing a standard attack action afterwards, or make it a 1-round action by holding that "charge" until your next turn. I can't be sure of that one, but ideally that should be how a technique works; if by RAW you can make the action extend for that round, you can make it part of your actions.


Personally I'd like to see schools that had more advantages per level. This would make sword schools stronger, yes, but the game is supposed to be high power, as declared in the first chapter. More advantages per school would allow for more flavourful and specialized advantages and disadvantages, room for advantages that enhance school actions in particular and in general a more thematic and cool system.

Thing is, it's better to start simple. It's better to see how this works (remember, there's no example maneuver to work with, one that uses more complex tricks such as how Aim and Iron Heart maneuvers act upon each other) before adding new Advantages and Restrictions that would otherwise muddle. Also, consider that there may be a few actions that are not added, and thus you could make new schools and perhaps increase the number of actions you can add as Advantages, possibly as a "splat". But, so far, we got this, and there's several hundred versions of techniques you can do only with two schools.

--

Going with character creation: trying to make a character (which isn't meant to be played or used as an NPC; rather I'm doing it to test character creation) leads to a little predicament. The cost of a new Magic or Sword is equal to 200, but it doesn't mention whether that implies a new Magic or Sword school or a new Magic spell/Sword strike. I incline towards the latter (thus, you need to buy access to Devoted Spirit for 200 XP if you're a Paladin, you don't start with access to it), but that means spellcasters are screwed because they have access to only ONE spell (unless they get access to the Spell Book feat). If it were the latter (you start with 1 level on each of your specified levels, and the 200 is to determine a new spell or strike), then there would be a conflict with what says on the Sword Schools section where you can buy as many techs as you want for a cost between 50 XP to 250 XP, because you'd have a fixed cost of 200 XP. Any way to clear this out?

SurlySeraph
2011-04-08, 02:19 AM
For optimizing and balance-determining purposes, here is a list of theoretical maximums as best as I can figure out. Most values can be further improved with spells or by spending resource points.

Damage at 1st level:
Orc Werewolf Barbarian. Strength 5 base, +3 werewolf, +2 Power Armor, +1 Get of Fenris, +1 Frenzy. Power Attack for +1k0, use an Orichalcum Grimscythe for 6k2+3 damage. That's 10k10+3 damage. You can add +10 by spending a resource point on that attack.

Damage at higher levels:
Vampire, Potence, Frenzy, Power Armor, base Strength 5. That's 10k3 damage before your weapon, 10k6 if you double strength after Frenzy and the Power Armor. Then Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Powerful Charge for +4k0. Add a special attack for +2k2. Best-quality weapon for +2, Crushing Blow for +4, Orichalcum Grimscythe 6k2 +3. So that's finally 10k10+99 damage, 10k10+129 if Potence doubles Strength after Frenzy and Power Armor. Spend a Resource Point for another +10, and spells let you have a bit more.

For both damages, Strength and Weaponry specialties in Hurting People might be able to add another +10 each.

Size will apparently be revised in the errata, but as-is:
Size, 1st level: Aasimar Werewolf with Large. Base size 8, 10 in war form.

Size, high level: Aasimar Promethean with Large is base size 8, +1 Strength of Granite, +1 Power Armor, double it via Warstrider for 20.

Static Defense, 1st level: Tau Paragon with 5 base Dex, +1 Dex from Legendary Attribute, +5 Move and Shoot, +2 Mithril weapon, +10 Full Defense, +5 Concealment, for a final 56.

Static Defense, high level: Tau Vampire with 5 base Dex. Celerity to double Dex, +5 Move and Shoot, +2 Mithril weapon, +10 Full Defense, +5 Concealment, for a final 76. A friendly Devoted Spirit Grandmaster can add +20 with Covering the Phalanx, and Animal Power can add some more.
Add Hard Target to subtract 2k0 from your opponent's attack roll, and Necrodermis Armor for another -2k1.

Attack, 1st level:
Elf Werewolf. 5 base Dex, +2 wolf form, +1k1 specialties, +5k0 skill, +2k0 special attack, +1k0 Elven Precision, +1k0 Good quality weapon, +1k0 Orichalcum, +2k0 Aim, +2k0 All-Out Attack. Final 10k10+100.
Yeah, static defense doesn't keep up too well. But Hard Target and Necrodermis Armor reduce this to 10k10+50, which actually has a chance of missing.

Attack, 3rd level:
Elf Vampire with Celerity and 5 base Dex, +1k1 specialties, +5k0 skill, +1k0 Hatred, +0k1 Improved Weapon Focus, +1k0 Weapon Focus, +2k2 special attack, +2k1 Sheathed Blade, +1k0 Good quality, +1k0 Orichalcum, +2k0 Aim, +2k0 All-Out Attack, +1k0 Elven Precision. That's a final 10k10+140 base attack.
Warp Fire and Animal Power can add more, like if you have an Accurate weapon and want all the raises you can get.
Additional note: for a ranged weapon, you can't get the bonuses from Hatred, Sheathed Blade and All-Out Attack, but you can get +1k0 from Accurate for a final 10k10+90.

Armor, 1st level:
Gnome Atlantean wearing Power Armor for 12, +1 Zenith Caste, +1 Best quality, +2 Hearthstone Bracers, final 16.

Armor, high level:
Promethean with Darksteel Armor for 16, +1 Best quality armor (presumably through Inheritance), +1 Armor Specialization, +10 Stone Skin Concentration, +2 Hearthstone Bracers, final +28. Can add +2 shield (arm only), +3 darksteel bionic heart (gizzards only).

Aura, 1st level: +1 Zenith Caste, +4 Wraithbone Armor, final 5.

Aura, high level: 10 Iron Sigil, +5 Zenith Caste, +4 Wraithbone Armor, final 19.

HP:
Daemonhost Guardsman. 6 Con, +6 Willpower, +2 Sloth, +2 Ox Body Technique, +2 Orichalcum Bionic Heart, +10 Sound Constitution, final 28.
You could get another +11 by taking every other class level that offers Sound Constitution if you're crazy. For a pre-errata Squat, it depends what the cutoff of "during character creation" that you double it at is.

Weimann
2011-04-08, 09:33 AM
Loads of stuff.Hm, I see. I couldn't read that from anywhere, though. It should be clarified in the text how those things work. Thanks for the explanation.

Weimann
2011-04-08, 09:53 AM
For optimizing and balance-determining purposes, here is a list of theoretical maximums as best as I can figure out. Most values can be further improved with spells or by spending resource points.

Damage at 1st level:
Orc Werewolf Barbarian. Strength 5 base, +3 werewolf, +2 Power Armor, +1 Get of Fenris, +1 Frenzy. Power Attack for +1k0, use an Orichalcum Grimscythe for 6k2+3 damage. That's 10k10+3 damage. You can add +10 by spending a resource point on that attack.

Damage at higher levels:
Vampire, Potence, Frenzy, Power Armor, base Strength 5. That's 10k3 damage before your weapon, 10k6 if you double strength after Frenzy and the Power Armor. Then Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Powerful Charge for +4k0. Add a special attack for +2k2. Best-quality weapon for +2, Crushing Blow for +4, Orichalcum Grimscythe 6k2 +3. So that's finally 10k10+99 damage, 10k10+129 if Potence doubles Strength after Frenzy and Power Armor. Spend a Resource Point for another +10, and spells let you have a bit more.

For both damages, Strength and Weaponry specialties in Hurting People might be able to add another +10 each.

Size will apparently be revised in the errata, but as-is:
Size, 1st level: Aasimar Werewolf with Large. Base size 8, 10 in war form.

Size, high level: Aasimar Promethean with Large is base size 8, +1 Strength of Granite, +1 Power Armor, double it via Warstrider for 20.

Static Defense, 1st level: Tau Paragon with 5 base Dex, +1 Dex from Legendary Attribute, +5 Move and Shoot, +2 Mithril weapon, +10 Full Defense, +5 Concealment, for a final 56.

Static Defense, high level: Tau Vampire with 5 base Dex. Celerity to double Dex, +5 Move and Shoot, +2 Mithril weapon, +10 Full Defense, +5 Concealment, for a final 76. A friendly Devoted Spirit Grandmaster can add +20 with Covering the Phalanx, and Animal Power can add some more.
Add Hard Target to subtract 2k0 from your opponent's attack roll, and Necrodermis Armor for another -2k1.

Attack, 1st level:
Elf Werewolf. 5 base Dex, +2 wolf form, +1k1 specialties, +5k0 skill, +2k0 special attack, +1k0 Elven Precision, +1k0 Good quality weapon, +1k0 Orichalcum, +2k0 Aim, +2k0 All-Out Attack. Final 10k10+100.
Yeah, static defense doesn't keep up too well. But Hard Target and Necrodermis Armor reduce this to 10k10+50, which actually has a chance of missing.

Attack, 3rd level:
Elf Vampire with Celerity and 5 base Dex, +1k1 specialties, +5k0 skill, +1k0 Hatred, +0k1 Improved Weapon Focus, +1k0 Weapon Focus, +2k2 special attack, +2k1 Sheathed Blade, +1k0 Good quality, +1k0 Orichalcum, +2k0 Aim, +2k0 All-Out Attack, +1k0 Elven Precision. That's a final 10k10+140 base attack.
Warp Fire and Animal Power can add more, like if you have an Accurate weapon and want all the raises you can get.
Additional note: for a ranged weapon, you can't get the bonuses from Hatred, Sheathed Blade and All-Out Attack, but you can get +1k0 from Accurate for a final 10k10+90.

Armor, 1st level:
Gnome Atlantean wearing Power Armor for 12, +1 Zenith Caste, +1 Best quality, +2 Hearthstone Bracers, final 16.

Armor, high level:
Promethean with Darksteel Armor for 16, +1 Best quality armor (presumably through Inheritance), +1 Armor Specialization, +10 Stone Skin Concentration, +2 Hearthstone Bracers, final +28. Can add +2 shield (arm only), +3 darksteel bionic heart (gizzards only).

Aura, 1st level: +1 Zenith Caste, +4 Wraithbone Armor, final 5.

Aura, high level: 10 Iron Sigil, +5 Zenith Caste, +4 Wraithbone Armor, final 19.

HP:
Daemonhost Guardsman. 6 Con, +6 Willpower, +2 Sloth, +2 Ox Body Technique, +2 Orichalcum Bionic Heart, +10 Sound Constitution, final 28.
You could get another +11 by taking every other class level that offers Sound Constitution if you're crazy. For a pre-errata Squat, it depends what the cutoff of "during character creation" that you double it at is.Oh my god. 10k10+100 attack roll at first level? Matched by a passive defense of 56 and 28 HP? I had a feeling the 10k10 cap would be reached pretty fast, but the ability to gain +100 on an attack roll to start with?

Yeah, passive defenses do need a buff. I'd also propose a change to the dice system; overflow from several +1k0 bonuses fill up all caps pretty fast, it seems, which can't be the intention.

If I wanted to be harsh, I'd say that every pool has its own cap and there's no overflow. You can if you have 12k4 on a roll, then you just roll 10k4 and the overflow from the rolled pool is wasted. If you want to up your kept pool, get bonuses to kept dice as well.

A more reasonable approach could be to let rolls keep overflow, but not at a 1:1 proportion. A die kept is more valuable than a die rolled after all. Maybe something like after the cap is reached, then every 3 additional dice rolled instead increase dice kept by 1. Every overflowing dice kept would turn into +5, which is the mean outcome of a roll and seems much more reasonable than the top outcome.

ninja_penguin
2011-04-08, 04:52 PM
I personally was planning on house ruling that down to +2 per overflow dice, like the L5R system has it. (I think that's how it is, anyway)

Weimann
2011-04-08, 05:25 PM
Sounds decent.

Man, I'm getting more and more annoyed at the sword schools. They really need to explain School Actions better, because a strict reading does not at all imply the interpretation suggested here, provided that one is true.

Edit: Amagad, v1.2 is out. Go get it (http://lawfulnice.blogspot.com/).

Oh hell yeah, they clarified several of my issues. Happy happy joy joy.

Mayhem
2011-04-08, 07:17 PM
Alright, so I know it's a bit early (as in less than a week with a new revision coming soon), but are there any homebrew ideas out there?
I had ideas of adapting it to d&d style fantasy, with clockwork armour to replace power armour and all that. Mostly just fluff, and I didn't get far since I'm still infamilliar with the system and it most likely will change rendering my work moot.
It'd be great to have a splatbook to replicate d&d spelljammer, I don't think it'd take considerable changes either.

Seerow
2011-04-08, 07:25 PM
Did I miss something, or did size just get nerfed across the board while still giving no compensation for the smaller races, taking 50-100% more damage than average, or treating the size bonus of larger races as an actual racial bonus, and giving less stuff accordingly?

Morph Bark
2011-04-08, 07:38 PM
I swear, once all the bigger kinks in the system are worked out (like size; I don't expect all the small ones worked out because every system has them), I'm gonna be homebrewin' stuff for this like mad.

SurlySeraph
2011-04-08, 09:17 PM
OK, let's look at some of the changes.

The examples are quite helpful.

Experience point buy is a decent option to have, though I wouldn't use it myself. Note that if you let players take Gifted more than once and spend all their xp on their characteristics, things become rather broken.

The Size reduction means it's easier to die, though I'd need to look more determine exactly how much. The reduction in your ability to do godlike damage might compensate.

Halfling Agility is now a +2 to static defense. Woo.

Power Armor is now a bit awesomer, and positive effects based on your size like Terminator Honors are less awesome.

Stat specialties are more powerful.

Aasimar and Humans seem to rather outclass the rest.

Able Drinker is now even more mandatory for Squats.

I liked Alchemy more than Recharge, but I'm all for the rest of the Exaltation changes. Werewolves and Vamps are now significantly easier to kill (except by sunlight), but I don't think it's a problem. Still needs to address how Cure Light Wounds, being an Ork, etc. interact with Promethean healing.

Unkept convert to kept at a 2:1 ratio, and additional dice after 10k10 are +5 instead of +10. Good! You don't have as much chance at truly ridiculous rolls, but there's still a good reward for heavy investment and don't have to roll a silly number of dice.

Free Study is good.

I'm happy with the class changes, but nothing lets you take Hatred for anything but heretics, it's really hard to get Good Reputation, and there's still no way to get Spell Specialization (though Touch Spell Specialization is available).

The new art in the Feats chapter is nice.

The magic changes look good to me.

Nice on special attacks.

The Artifact changes look fine.

I'm fine with Healing Surge.

I'm not going to go back and recalculate the optimization exercise above now, though I'll try to later.

T.G. Oskar
2011-04-08, 11:22 PM
There's a lot more from where that came from:
For starters, they cleared up a LOT of stuff. It's 200 for the first level of magic, then 100 x level for the subsequent. So it's 200, 100, 200, 300 and 400 (for a total of 1,200 per school) to take a school from level 1 to level 5). Also, the actions allowed by each school have been explained a bit more carefully: Feint and Aim provide the benefit to the next attack (so you need to make an attack for the action to work), Aid Another applies the Advantages to the ally you assist (so basically you boost others), Ready has been cleared to work by making a Ready action to draw your weapon and attack with your next standard attack.

While adding a +1k1 to Focus Power tests are nice, Tremere and Silent Striders aren't THAT powerful as promised. It does act like if you had an extra point on Intelligence or Wisdom, though, for that specific purpose. It adds up because you can get up to 10 points on your Focus Power roll, tho.

I weep for Terminator Honors. Though, perhaps only an Aasimar that gets the racial feat can wear Terminator armor if vehicles are made, so...

Haven't checked much, but apparently there's still no way to increase Aura on your own except for Caste asset or Abjuration? I would have expected a feat for, say, Clerics and Paladins to grant at least Aura 1, or maybe Power Stat + Willpower roll to act like Aura (much like Armouring Aura, except the TN is 15 or 20). But again, reading as I go so might have missed it.

Universal Advantages now have Exalted nomenclature: First Damage Improvement, Second Damage Mastery, First Accuracy Improvement, Second Accuracy Mastery.

Healing Surge is so-so, really. Heal HP based on spending Resource Points on a 1:1 ratio with your level, and you get +5 to Static Defense until your next turn. This is only relevant if you can recharge your Resource Points real quick, because people like Chosen regain Resource Points once per day, and they're limited to their Devotion while at that. Except Healing Surges done by characters with the Mark of Vectron, of course, which can recover 1 favor per scene.

Aasimar really have little need for their Willpower, aside for HP and Resolve. They're basically "immune to Warp", so to speak, because Jaded blocks just about any check related to insanity except for Fear checks, and Fearless makes you immune to fear. So yeah...Size 5 instead of size 7, bonus to Constitution, immunity to Warp...no wonder the Greinait-Speshmareeen...I mean, the Aasimars are so buff now.

Otogi
2011-04-09, 01:00 PM
Haven't checked much, but apparently there's still no way to increase Aura on your own except for Caste asset or Abjuration? I would have expected a feat for, say, Clerics and Paladins to grant at least Aura 1, or maybe Power Stat + Willpower roll to act like Aura (much like Armouring Aura, except the TN is 15 or 20). But again, reading as I go so might have missed it.


Wraithbone apparently adds +4 to Aura, but that's about all I can find.

EDIT: Also, does anybody else feel that Exalted Assets should be mandatory (if free?)

Cruxador
2011-04-09, 07:24 PM
Alright, so I know it's a bit early (as in less than a week with a new revision coming soon), but are there any homebrew ideas out there?
Something on this now:
Wellspring (http://pastebin.com/P4eeFc5h)
A fair few folks wanted a Magical Girl exaltation. This covers that, and Green Lanterns, and Power Rangers, and plenty else.

DrWeird
2011-04-09, 07:43 PM
So, anybody making a game of this on the forum or what? It seems like we're inevitably headed in that direction.

Seerow
2011-04-09, 07:56 PM
So, anybody making a game of this on the forum or what? It seems like we're inevitably headed in that direction.

There was already one that went up on the recruitment within a day of this being posted.

ninja_penguin
2011-04-09, 08:47 PM
Lack of SM, a lot of people wanting to see the system in place first. In my case, it also comes in third on the list of 'games I want to/said I would' run online.

Otogi
2011-04-09, 11:38 PM
So, anybody making a game of this on the forum or what? It seems like we're inevitably headed in that direction.

Definitely willing to SM in a little while or when 1.3 comes out.

Halna LeGavilk
2011-04-15, 03:02 PM
This seems like an awesome game. I think me and my friends might play this at some point.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-04-18, 12:52 AM
This game is awesome!
I can't wait for a pbp game to start

Cruxador
2011-04-23, 03:57 PM
1.3 is released.
http://lawfulnice.blogspot.com/

aazru
2011-04-23, 04:03 PM
Nicer and nicer ^^

Land Outcast
2011-05-23, 10:02 PM
v 1.4 Released :smallcool:

aazru
2011-05-25, 03:23 PM
So, I thought I'd post something interesting for people today - the list of stuff that I'm working on for the next book. This is not a complete list. I'm sure more will end up being added. But this should give you some idea of what's going on. (http://lawfulnice.blogspot.com/2011/05/dungeons-dragoning-40k-7th-edition-book.html)

RACES:
Thri-Kreen
Kobold
Kenku
EXALTATIONS:
Wraith
Changeling
CLASSES:
Arcane Knight
Monk
Techpriest
Gunslinger
Temple Assassin
FEATS/ASSETS:
More Exaltation Assets for everyone
MAGIC:
New spells for each school
Possibly new schools
SWORD SCHOOLS:
Gun Kata for ranged weapons
Sniping School
Gunslinger School
Etc.
ALIGNMENT:
New gods!
Lolth
The Omnissiah
Secular Humanism
EQUIPMENT:
Weapon Creation System
New Specific Weapons
New Armor
New Bionics
ARTIFACTS:
You better believe there are going to be new artifacts.
VEHICLES:
P-scale vehicle rules, for using cars, planes, and the like alongside characters.
S-scale (Ship Scale) rules for spelljammer combat!

Morph Bark
2011-05-25, 04:05 PM
They should add some Star Wars races to the lineup.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-05-26, 02:56 AM
Ewoks Teddy Bears FTW! :smallbiggrin:

I support Star Wars rip-off races.

wiimanclassic
2011-05-26, 09:01 AM
On the part about gaining additional hero points you called them fate.

druid91
2011-05-26, 08:24 PM
So is anyone thinking about starting a game of this?

Because I just found it and it looks awesome.

snowboule
2011-06-06, 10:18 AM
Any idea when this stuff gettin out? I'm a pro-dont bring a knife to a gun fight :smallbiggrin:

AlexanderRM
2011-08-26, 11:34 AM
Hmm... this seems rather interesting, but I'm going to have to sorta go against most people here and complain about something- the World of Darkness element really seems to have been ignored in the setting and plot; the only place it really comes in is the character sheet. Other than that all you really have are Vampire and Werewolf as Exaltations, which wind up as just that, a couple more Exaltations.

Maybe new world Vampire isn't as big on the whole Masquerade and manipulation thing as Old World, but I'm sure there's some degree of it and there doesn't seem to really be any of that in D:tD.

Might I suggest an extension book about Vampires, and possibly one about Werewolves (and maybe Changelings and Wraiths) describing their semi-secret society and influence on Kine (or w/e) politics, and all that? I suppose that, given how book II has taken at least 3 months, that'll probably take awhile to come out by WWW, but meh. At least a statement about optionally transposing WoD-style societies into the game would be nice.


I also have some questions about the system- the main thing I can think of is with taking a new class. Can you just automatically get one when you meet the prerequisites and are eligible to leave your old one, with no XP cost for taking the class itself?

& I found a few weird things- one thing I noted is that Orks, who are genetically engineered specifically for the sole purpose of killing things, which they basically spend their entire lives doing, get bonuses to Intimidation and Scrutiny, and not to any combat skills. Intimidation I suppose makes sense, but Scrutiny really does not at all. This is the only one I noticed mainly b/c I was thinking I'd want to play an Ork for RP reasons and checking out class prerequisites for it.


Anyway, despite that, the game seems pretty cool just as Warhammer + D&D, and I'd be quite interested to play it; looking into PbP's currently.



Also, my sincere apologies if this is Thread Necromancy. I figured that if it was it wouldn't hurt much (won't get posted much in either way) and if it wasn't I'd save the thread from officially dying.

ninja_penguin
2011-08-26, 12:06 PM
Hmm... this seems rather interesting, but I'm going to have to sorta go against most people here and complain about something- the World of Darkness element really seems to have been ignored in the setting and plot; the only place it really comes in is the character sheet. Other than that all you really have are Vampire and Werewolf as Exaltations, which wind up as just that, a couple more Exaltations.

Maybe new world Vampire isn't as big on the whole Masquerade and manipulation thing as Old World, but I'm sure there's some degree of it and there doesn't seem to really be any of that in D:tD.


Dungeons:The Dragoning basically exists to be crazy over the top with things. You're free to modify the setting or particular setting all you want, that's the purpose of the crystal spheres. In the base sigil etc. what-have-you, Vampires and Werewolves are really not that much of an odd occurance; there's no point in a masquerade.



I also have some questions about the system- the main thing I can think of is with taking a new class. Can you just automatically get one when you meet the prerequisites and are eligible to leave your old one, with no XP cost for taking the class itself?

Basically, complete your level 1 class, and you can free study, and pick a level 2 class to enter into provided you meet the pre-requisites. Once you declare your level 2 class, you can only advance in that class until you complete it. You're level 2 once you start with the level 2 class.

AlexanderRM
2011-08-26, 04:23 PM
Basically, complete your level 1 class, and you can free study, and pick a level 2 class to enter into provided you meet the pre-requisites. Once you declare your level 2 class, you can only advance in that class until you complete it. You're level 2 once you start with the level 2 class.

Um, I read all that, I know. What I was wondering is if taking a new class itself cost any XP- I was assuming it would, but it seems like not.

Also, does it ever say that you can't skip levels? I don't see any inherent reason why you couldn't go straight to a level 3 class, though it's possible the feat prereqs work out such that this is difficult (such as a 3rd lvl class requiring one or more feats that aren't accessible to 1st lvl classes).

Jjeinn-tae
2011-08-26, 06:09 PM
Hmm, finally looked into this, that instantly goes on my "games that I play" list. That's awesome. :smallbiggrin:

ninja_penguin
2011-08-27, 12:47 AM
Um, I read all that, I know. What I was wondering is if taking a new class itself cost any XP- I was assuming it would, but it seems like not.

Nope, it does not.


Also, does it ever say that you can't skip levels? I don't see any inherent reason why you couldn't go straight to a level 3 class, though it's possible the feat prereqs work out such that this is difficult (such as a 3rd lvl class requiring one or more feats that aren't accessible to 1st lvl classes).

I think the general idea is that you need to complete a level 2 class in order to move on to a level 3. However, even if you did, your character level is determined by number of completed classes, so you're basically just very inefficiently spending your EXP to free study your way into higher classes.

AlexanderRM
2011-08-27, 10:06 AM
I think the general idea is that you need to complete a level 2 class in order to move on to a level 3. However, even if you did, your character level is determined by number of completed classes, so you're basically just very inefficiently spending your EXP to free study your way into higher classes.

"A character's level is equal to the level of the highest level class they have. For example, a character with Fighter 4, Bard 2 is a Level 4 character."

Wait- but can you take any feat in free study? It says you may improve "other skills and characteristics" (than those from classes you've already completed) at double the cost, I'm not sure if that includes feats.

ninja_penguin
2011-08-28, 12:24 PM
"A character's level is equal to the level of the highest level class they have. For example, a character with Fighter 4, Bard 2 is a Level 4 character."

Wait- but can you take any feat in free study? It says you may improve "other skills and characteristics" (than those from classes you've already completed) at double the cost, I'm not sure if that includes feats.

"Each class has a level. A character's level is equal to the level of the highest level class they have. For example, a character with Swordsman, Fight Guy, Minstrel and Fighter is a level 3 character."

True that. I guess DM just needs to go 'nope, stop that'.

AlexanderRM
2011-08-28, 07:56 PM
I don't think the DM needs to fiat it, they can just interpret the rules as not allowing otherwise inaccessible feats to be taken during free study.