Pathfinder Eldritch Knight

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Okay, so heres what i gots so far:

Level 8 Half elf Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 2

(im using the alternate Half-Elven ability from the APG, "Ancestral Arms", to take an EWP: Elven Curve Blade, instead of having two favored classes.)

STR: 14
DEX: 16 (18 after lvls 4 & 8)
CON: 14
INT: 16 (18 after racial ability mod.)
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Feats:
1 Finesse
3Power Attack
5 Furious Charge
7 Improved Initiative

Fighter 1: Focus: Elven curve Blade (for Specialization at level 9)

Eldritch Knight 1: ???

Wizard 5: Quicken Spell

A.) what should I take for my Eldritch Knight level 1 feat?

B.) what should I take after level 9 feat (which I plan on Weapon Specialization?)

im planning largely on buffing myself for combat, and not wearing any armor. (looking for a bit of a challenge). I get Wealth By Level, so any suggestions there would be nice as well. ( I was thinking of Ring of Wizardy, Belt of Dex +2, +2 elven Curve blade, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1.)

Anything else I should remember? thanks in advance!!!

[grarrrg]

Level 8 Half elf Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 2
STR: 14
DEX: 16 (18 after lvls 4 & 8)
CON: 14
INT: 16 (18 after racial ability mod.)
WIS: 12
CHA: 10


Why not just go Full Elf (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf)? You're already trading away the Multi-Favored for Elven weapon, Elves get that already, have the same or better racials, and give you more Alternate-Racial options. Stat-wise you can swap your Dex 16 and Con 14, which after modifiers will wind up back at 16 and 14.



Feats:
1 Finesse
3Power Attack
5 Furious Charge
7 Improved Initiative
Fighter 1: Focus: Elven curve Blade (for Specialization at level 9)
Eldritch Knight 1: ???
Wizard 5: Quicken Spell


I think you meant Furious Focus for your level 5.
Weapon Focus is a bad idea, as is Weapon specialization.
Some better/more appropriate options:
Combat Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-expertise-combat): trade to-hit for AC, in an of itself not awesome, but it is a pre-req for a lot of other feats.
Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-reflexes-combat): You'll be able to make LOTS of AoO's.
Arcane Armor Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-armor-training-combat): Swift action to ignore 10% spell failure. Allows you to wear light armor with no/small chance of failure.

You'll also want to look ahead to the Eldritch Knight's capstone "free cast on Critical", Improved Critical and Critical Focus can help with this.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Some things:

A.) I hate elves with a passion recently, cos i've played too many of them. is human or half elf, or nothing.

B.) Yes, I did mean Furious Focus. Sorry, it was late.

C.) I am concerned about your feat suggestions. I understand that focus and specialization are bad feats, but combat expertise (without a tripper build) is bad, especially when I already have power attack. Combat Reflexes might be good, however... Arcane Armor training is flat out terrible. it takes a swift action to use, as does the Eldritch Knight capstone, and thus you can only use one or the other in a given round.

Oh, and honelsty... I think that keen (a +1 enhancement) is a better deal than spending precious feats on improved critical. the Critical focus line, is a great idea, so thank you.

[ericgrau]

{TABLE] Level | DPR | Power Attack DPR | Furious Focus DPR | Weapon Focus DPR | Weapon Specializatin DPR
3 | 5.0 | 6.4 | 7.0 | 5.5 | N/A
4 | 7.8 | 9.1 | 9.7 | 8.5 | 8.9
5 | 9.7 | 11.5 | 12.1 | 10.4 | 11.0
6 | 18.3 | 20.8 | 21.4 | 19.9 | 20.6
7 | 22.3 | 24.1 | 25.5 | 24.3 | 24.6
8 | 22.9 | 24.6 | 25.9 | 24.9 | 25.2
9 | 26.9 | 30.3 | 31.7 | 28.9 | 29.6
10 | 29.3 | 30.8 | 32.1 | 31.6 | 31.8
11 | 52.7 | 51.3 | 53.7 | 57.3 | 57.2
12 | 65.2 | 63.7 | 66.1 | 70.5 | 70.1
13 | 66.4 | 64.5 | 66.9 | 71.8 | 71.3
14 | 92.0 | 98.7 | 101.1 | 97.6 | 98.5
15 | 77.9 | 67.9 | 71.6 | 84.3 | 82.8
16 | 90.2 | 71.7 | 75.5 | 98.4 | 95.7
17 | 93.8 | 65.6 | 69.4 | 103.1 | 98.8
18 | 84.4 | 52.5 | 56.3 | 93.8 | 88.9
19 | 155.8 | 125.0 | 130.4 | 166.9 | 162.8
20 | 154.6 | 92.8 | 98.2 | 168.6 | 160.1
[/TABLE]

Assumes average monster AC from the 3.5 SRD, 4 monsters, encounter level = party level + 2 ("difficult"). I don't have numbers including the new PF monsters. I did use pathfinder's 3 damage per attack bonus lost, however. And obviously you can't have weapon spec without weapon focus but I did weapon spec by itself for the sake of comparison.

Starting level 8 right? Weapon focus and weapon specialization will overtake power attack in 2-3 levels. In about 7 levels power attack will be useless (worse than nothing most of the time). Assuming you don't put all your focus into dexterity, power attack will be useless a lot sooner than that.

You're also losing quite a bit of damage from being dex focused instead of str focused. If it weren't for this weapon focus and weapon specialization would already be ahead of power attack, and power attack would be useless (worse than nothing most of the time) in 3 levels. That's because the higher your damage the more important it is to hit the more a penalty to your attack bonus hurts.



Oh, and honelsty... I think that keen (a +1 enhancement) is a better deal than spending precious feats on improved critical. the Critical focus line, is a great idea, so thank you.
Normally the other damage enhancements give you more damage than keen and are better options. But the critical focus feats would change that. Still, I'd get other enchantments until you have at least critical focus plus one other in the line.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

However... Furious Focus allows one to ignore the power attack penalties for the first attack in each round... it helps power attack a bit... its a feat out of the Pathfinder APG.

[ericgrau]

Updated table to include furious focus. It was a quick edit so sorry if there's a mistake anywhere. Obviously with furious focus power attack is still useful on single attacks even at higher levels. Anyhoo for full attacks it doesn't change much.

This is for average AC btw. If there's a soft squishy thing on the field and you have the mobility to reach it, then power attack away. Greater magic weapon and heroism may also make PA useful a little longer, but you're already 3 BAB behind and I know PA still has similar issues on other builds with more BAB.

As a partial mage you might want to take up weapon crafting to get your damage even faster. But that of course will make PA obsolete even faster too.

[Grommen]

Ya know I expected that build to get ripped to pieces by the 3rd post. No No back off the flame throwers peoples :smallcool:. I liked the build so I just assumed something must be wrong with it.

ericgrau --- That is a nice chart. I've never broken things down quite that way. I'm courrious though. what happens when you cast Bull's STR, Heroism, and Haste. Now your Base number to hit goes up by 4 to compensate for the Power Attack making more of those attacks land. Perhaps now one could Power Attack and Specialize.

Don't forget that you can use your Arcane Focus on a weapon so you can enchant the snot out of your sword.

And you can carry a buckler at lower levels for some added AC till you get spells to compensate for the lower AC.

I like the fighter/mage. A lot more work in Pathfinder and 3.X than the old 2nd edition but they are still fun.

[grarrrg]

A.) I hate elves with a passion recently, cos i've played too many of them. is human or half elf, or nothing.

Personal preference, that's fine.

C.) I am concerned about your feat suggestions. I understand that focus and specialization are bad feats, but combat expertise (without a tripper build) is bad, especially when I already have power attack. Combat Reflexes might be good, however... Arcane Armor training is flat out terrible. it takes a swift action to use, as does the Eldritch Knight capstone, and thus you can only use one or the other in a given round.

Mostly just throwing out random suggestions that might fit a Dex-based Gish build.
At some point you'll have to decide if you're a more melee or a more caster Gish. It affects the build some, and especially what you spend your WBL on.
Power Attack is (probably) better if you're a "Fighter with some casting"
Combat Expertise if (probably) better if you're a "Caster with some melee"


Oh, and honelsty... I think that keen (a +1 enhancement) is a better deal than spending precious feats on improved critical.
Agreed. But they have different 'costs'. Keen costs gold, Imp-Crit costs a feat, it all depends on which you care to spend.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Updated table to include furious focus. It was a quick edit so sorry if there's a mistake anywhere. Obviously with furious focus power attack is still useful on single attacks even at higher levels. Anyhoo for full attacks it doesn't change much.

This is for average AC btw. If there's a soft squishy thing on the field and you have the mobility to reach it, then power attack away. Greater magic weapon and heroism may also make PA useful a little longer, but you're already 3 BAB behind and I know PA still has similar issues on other builds with more BAB.

As a partial mage you might want to take up weapon crafting to get your damage even faster. But that of course will make PA obsolete even faster too.

in Pathfinder, you get a choice between a familiar and a "Bonded" weapon... this weapon allows you to cast any spell you know, even if it isnt prepared once per day...

You are also treated as having Craft Magic Arms and Armor for the purpose of enchanting said "bonded" item. so basically... I do have weapon crafting. :smallbiggrin:

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Personal preferance, that's fine.


Mostly just throwing out random suggestions that might fit a Dex-based Gish build.
At some point you'll have to decide if your a more melee or a more caster Gish. It affects the build some, and expecially what you spend your WBL on.
Power Attack is (probably) better if you're a "Fighter with some casting"
Combat Expertise if (probably) better if you're a "Caster with some melee"


Agreed. But they have different 'costs'. Keen costs gold, Imp-Crit costs a feat, it all depends on which you care to spend.

I think I am going for "Fighter with some casting" because... well, everyone in the party is a caster, and it doesnt matter what level spells I have, someone has my back. Probably gonna go for 8th level spells though.

As for keen costing money... its true, however: as a wizard in pathfinder, I do get Craft Magic Arms and Armor when my bonded item is concerned, so its actually half cost already... much better than a feat, in my opinion. of course, thats just me. :smallbiggrin:

[Swooper]

Anyone else think that table looks really dubious? :smallconfused: There are way too many external variables to be able to say "weapon focus is better than power attack at level N" based on something like this.

The power attack column doesn't include how much you're power attacking for, to begin with. Always full? Of course that's going to go badly against high-AC foes, you have to be smart about when to use it and how much.

It also doesn't include things like Shock Trooper or the aforementioned Furious Focus, which mitigate the attack roll penalty inherent in PA, or things which increase the return multiplier like Leap Attack.

It's also kind of weird how the chart is totally non-linear, but I suppose that's the fault of 3.5 monster designers. This also means that the chart will be completely inaccurate if the game involves anything other than an even distribution of monsters from the 3.5 srd.

[grarrrg]

I think I am going for "Fighter with some casting" because... well, everyone in the party is a caster, and it doesnt matter what level spells I have, someone has my back. Probably gonna go for 8th level spells though.

If you don't plan on getting 9th level spells, then that does open the build up (slightly) for more options.
I'd say the Weapon Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Weapon-Master) Fighter is a good call.
2nd level trades away Bravery, and gives you a +1 to resist Disarm and Sunder attempts, and a +1 on your Weapon's saving rolls (VERY useful for a Wizard-bonded weapon)
3rd level trades away Armor Training, and gives you your Weapon Training bonus 2 levels early. (+1 attack/damage with chosen weapon).

So you lose two bonuses you didn't need anyway, for two that will come in handy.

[grarrrg]

The power attack column doesn't include how much you're power attacking for, to begin with. Always full? Of course that's going to go badly against high-AC foes, you have to be smart about when to use it and how much.

It also doesn't include things like Shock Trooper...
It's also kind of weird how the chart is totally non-linear, but I suppose that's the fault of 3.5 monster designers...

I agree with you that there are a lot of variables, but I feel the need to point out that this is Pathfinder and not 3.5
For instance, Power Attack is not variable in PF, it is either on or off.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

If you don't plan on getting 9th level spells, then that does open the build up (slightly) for more options.
I'd say the Weapon Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Weapon-Master) Fighter is a good call.
2nd level trades away Bravery, and gives you a +1 to resist Disarm and Sunder attempts, and a +1 on your Weapon's saving rolls (VERY useful for a Wizard-bonded weapon)
3rd level trades away Armor Training, and gives you your Weapon Training bonus 2 levels early. (+1 attack/damage with chosen weapon).

So you lose two bonuses you didn't need anyway, for two that will come in handy.

VERY good call on the weapon Master. I didnt even think of that, and its exactly what I need. thank you!

[Swooper]

For instance, Power Attack is not variable in PF, it is either on or off.
...Really? I took a look at the PF power attack just to check before I posted, but I guess I'm so used to 3.5 that it didn't even occur to me that it didn't scale so I must have read it wrong. Apologies.

The rest of my post still stands.

[Ravens_cry]

However... Furious Focus allows one to ignore the power attack penalties for the first attack in each round... it helps power attack a bit... its a feat out of the Pathfinder APG.
Ooh, for a non pouncing charger, which most of them will be in Pathfinder, that is so good it is broken in the sense it is the best option ever.
Sure, it costs a feat, but feats are worth less in Pathfinder.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Ooh, for a non pouncing charger, which most of them will be in Pathfinder, that is so good it is broken in the sense it is the best option ever.
Sure, it costs a feat, but feats are worth less in Pathfinder.

Yeah, thats what both my friend and I thought... flat out brutal combined with the Rogue Scout Archetype from the APG as well.

[grarrrg]

...Really? I took a look at the PF power attack just to check before I posted, but I guess I'm so used to 3.5 that it didn't even occur to me that it didn't scale so I must have read it wrong. Apologies.

The rest of my post still stands.

It scales, but you don't have a choice.
It starts -1 attack > +2 damage and goes up a notch for every 4-bab.
So if you have 12 bab then your choices are attack at 12 with no bonus damage, OR attack at 8 with +8 bonus damage. You can't choose to take partial.

[Reverent-One]

It scales, but you don't have a choice.
It starts -1 attack > +2 damage and goes up a notch for every 4-bab.
So if you have 12 bab then your choices are attack at 12 with no bonus damage, OR attack at 8 with +8 bonus damage. You can't choose to take partial.

Also, if you're wielding a two handed weapon, you get +3 damage for each -1 to attack.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, thats what both my friend and I thought... flat out brutal combined with the Rogue Scout Archetype from the APG as well.
I was thinking Paladin on a mount.
Lots of very consistent damage.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

So any ideas as to what feats to take for that first bonus feat from Eldritch Knight?

[Ravens_cry]

Have you considered Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat)?
You can get 2 or 5 points back to put elsewhere, depending in if you want to use Power Attack or not.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

yes, I did think of Dervish Dance, however.... I'll get more damage out of an elven curve blade, STR and a half, and power attack... for the same amount of feats.

I do like Dervish Dance as a feat, but not for this. thanks though!

[Seatbelt]

So based on that table it looks like in PF it's better to take WF and WS. Should I swap out my feats for a Gish build I'm going to be playing soon..? I was honestly thinking of doing it anyway in favor of some of the really cool movement related feats. But I was afraid to lose damage potential.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

So based on that table it looks like in PF it's better to take WF and WS. Should I swap out my feats for a Gish build I'm going to be playing soon..? I was honestly thinking of doing it anyway in favor of some of the really cool movement related feats. But I was afraid to lose damage potential.

you could always... do both. think thats what I'll do.

[Tael]

I have no idea where the numbers from that table came from, and I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that it is way off. With the 1-3 damage ratio in Pathfinder, Power Attack is almost universally a damage boost. Run some actual damage calculations and you'll see this very quickly. At decently high levels you should be hitting anything's AC on a 2, and power attack will be giving you an extra 15 damage per hit, increasing your damage by ~50% depending on build.

[ericgrau]

Assumes average monster AC from the 3.5 SRD, 4 monsters, encounter level = party level + 2 ("difficult")
Table done on a spreadsheet, 1 to 3 damage ratio used. Yes, actual damage per round calculations done. Weapon damage (which works against PA) based on wealth by level, with a good chunk reserved for AC and other misc gear.


So based on that table it looks like in PF it's better to take WF and WS. Should I swap out my feats for a Gish build I'm going to be playing soon..? I was honestly thinking of doing it anyway in favor of some of the really cool movement related feats. But I was afraid to lose damage potential.
True at higher levels. Not true at lower levels, as shown on the table (though str based melee makes PA obsolete a little earlier than the OP's build). Cleave isn't too shabby in PF either, and PA is a pre-req. Ya if you're making a high level build and you expect dragons, demons and other big bad beasties rather than large armies of (low AC) mooks or squishy clothies then PA is a wasted feat as anything of appropriate CR will have too much AC. If you're doing a really high level build then you might as well get weapon focus but skip weapon specialization too as +2 damage per hit isn't going to be much anymore, but hitting more often will be (same reason why PA gets bad). I just saved you another feat.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Table done on a spreadsheet, 1 to 3 damage ratio used. Yes, actual damage per round calculations done. Weapon damage (which works against PA) based on wealth by level, with a good chunk reserved for AC and other misc gear.


True at higher levels. Not true at lower levels, as shown on the table (though str based melee makes PA obsolete a little earlier than the OP's build). Cleave isn't too shabby in PF either, and PA is a pre-req. Ya if you're making a high level build and you expect dragons, demons and other big bad beasties rather than large armies of (low AC) mooks or squishy clothies then PA is a wasted feat as anything of appropriate CR will have too much AC. If you're doing a really high level build then you might as well get weapon focus but skip weapon specialization too as +2 damage per hit isn't going to be much anymore, but hitting more often will be (same reason why PA gets bad). I just saved you another feat.

Thank you for the advice, ive been a fan of your work from the get go.