Ranged Builds

[TurtleKing]

I am looking to build either a throwing character or a long range sniper character. So far for the throwing one I am thinking of the Halfling racial sub rogue with Craft: Alchemy to create "special ammo". The sniper is probably going to be a Scout variant: Sniper.

I am looking for advice on these two builds on what feats, equipment, and weapons/ammo that I could take. This is for sea based campaign. The party is moderately optimized.

[Cog]

Scout variant: Sniper.
I'd strongly recommend against this. Skirmish damage lags behind other kinds of precision damage to begin with. TWF or Rapidshot are already strongly suggested for rogue builds, and Scouts really need the extra attacks to keep up. The Sniper variant forces you to take a fullround action for a single shot, and if you're stuck in close quarters (ever going to be in a dungeon, or inside at all?) you get nothing at all.

[TurtleKing]

The reason why I am looking at that one is I don't want to machine gun. I am wanting to be the one with the heavy 50. cal equilavent ranged weapon taking out the enemy in as few shots as possible.

Edit: The party is on a boat for most of the time.

[Zaq]

The reason why I am looking at that one is I don't want to machine gun. I am wanting to be the one with the heavy 50. cal equilavent ranged weapon taking out the enemy in as few shots as possible.

It's very difficult to do this nonmagically. A heavily metamagicked Orb of [blah] will take out most threats in a single shot, but if you want to be a Heike archer using an actual bow (or crossbow or whatever), 3.5 tends to be rather unsupportive. Going for the machine gun is pretty much the only way to keep an archer's damage competitive. (Exception: Hulking Hurler, but you don't want that. Trust me.)

What level are you playing at?

[Abemad]

You could try to make a great crossbow user with telling blow (sneak attack on crits) and deadeye shot (ready action to make a ranged attack, denying dex to armor when an ally hits an enemy)

Those are the only two options i can think of that gives the ability to deliver sneak attacks outside 60'

[Hazzardevil]

I don't have much advice except this:
See if your DM will let you use a great crossbow and apply your full dex bonus to it. The great crossbow is the closest to a sniper I think you can get but the damage is pitiful, even with crossbow sniper. Take improved skirmish too and swift hunter.

The problem with scout and rogue is that unless 60 ft is sniping range then you can't snipe. So that limits you to 2d8+ half your dex mod damage per standard action and unless you are willing to get in close for skirmish then that is all you got. Not much is it? and to take crossbow sniper you need weapon focus.
My advice for a sniper is to be a kensai great crossbow and get as far from your opponents as possible and then snipe, reload, snipe, reload.
Able sniper is a good feat for what your after. After sniping you get a +4 bonus on your hide check to hide.

The most efficent crossbow sniper build I can think of is this:
10 kensai levels, ask your DM to let surge of power or whatever that strength buff effect to effect dex instead and focus on the great crossbow.
Be large like a goliath or something.
levels of exotic weapon master to make your not useless when they get close to you.
I reccomend levels of fighter and take ranged and focus feats on the tree to improve your damage. You need all the damage you can get.
Also make sure you have a level or 2 in a class with hideas a class skill then take guerilla warrior so it's cheaper to keep maximum ranks in hide and ms.

[TurtleKing]

The party level 6 at the moment. The Repeating Heavy Crossbow is actually better than the Heavy crossbow since the reload is a free action from bolt to bolt in a clip. With that I could pull off 5 Sniper Shots in a row before having to take a round in between. So when closing with a ship I can fire 3 or 4 of them before we next to them if also making it out of Dragonbone and Far Shot feat. So that is 1d10 plus 2d6 at least at 220 ft range increment. The feats I am thinking of grabbing so far are EWP: Repeating Heavy Crossbow, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot and Precise Shot. The next two would be Weapon Focus and Crossbow Sniper. Wondering what magical items would help with this.

Not to leave the throwing build out in the cold what about it? His special ammo would probably look like dice if possible. I was talking to my DM when discussing the backup character of being a fighter, and when hearing the thrower he recommended going rogue for at least one level. How about if I went a Halfling racial sub rogue. Any ideas on how to pull this off.

Edit: The Sniper Shot for the Scout variant works at any range.

[Amphetryon]

Aside from Ye Olde Potion Throwing Rogue (assuming you and your DM are down with that idea), the other option to do really solid damage comes from using Shrink Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm) shenanigans to make boulders itty-bitty to carry around, toss them, then shout the command word. It's a 3rd level arcane spell, so you'd need to multiclass, 'settle' for Spellthief, buy a Wand of Shrink Item and invest in UMD, or convince the party Arcanist to spam the spell for you as needed.

[TurtleKing]

Can still do that but with certain tokens or dusts. Throw the Anchor or Tree token, or fire a Dust of Dryness from a sling if possible. I am thinking of him carrying around several kinds of thrown weapons for different uses. Sling for the bullets/dice while the darts inject poisons. It is not just throwing so as to deal damage, but also produce some effect on the battlefield. Is it possible to throw playing cards as a weapon, or do I use those for certain alchemy items?

[WinWin]

If you want heavy damage:

Multiple attacks.

Barring that option. You need something like Power Attack. Peerless Archer gets this at level 3. (ECL 10). Or you can use this. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)

Woodland Archer covers everything you could ever want from a sniper.

Scout plays differently. Even with an extended skirmish range, you're still effectively kiting, not sniping. Different tactical style entirely. It still benefits more from greater multishot/action spam than throwing one big object.

The only thing that even comes close to a Howitzer is not likely to be a halfling. It's a Hulking Hurler or Caster.

As for alchemical gear, google the flask rogue. There is a fairly comprehensive list of craftable items with references here. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/3505567/Craft-chart-Alchemy-itemsPoisons-a-35-quick-reference-guide)

[Eldariel]

Targetteer Fighter [DR310] (can be found in Crystalkeep Indexes) variant special ability "Sniper" can be used to make rather reliable criticals with bows; you can lose an iterative attack for a 1-point extension in your crit range. With Rapid Shot and Arrow Storm (another Targeteer Ability) you'll get a total of 3 extra attacks and your normal iteratives, allowing for a handy 6-point extension in your crit range. Keen Arrows from Deepwood Sniper gives you 1 more point allowing for crit from 12 to 20. You could combine this with Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) and Weapon Master [Sword & Fist] for 9-20 Crit Range.

Combine all that with Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild], you can make massive x5 crits with bow being remotely respectable against things vulnerable to such things (get the Demolition and Truedeath Weapon Crystals [Magic Item Compendium] for crits vs. Constructs and Undead, btw). No magic involved, you can do this from thousands of feet away, with 100% Concealment Reduction. You could bypass the difficulty of critting (and thus all this hassle) by using level 1 Ranger spell "Hunter's Mercy" though.


Then the only thing left is to get enough To Hit to land those shots, and damage to make them hurt; for which your 4 Fighter-levels giving you Ranged Weapon Mastery [Player's Handbook II], you Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] + Education [Player's Guide to Faerun] and just tons of feats and class features are the key. You get solid damage bonuses from your Strength also; just get a high strength rating bow (you can even craft it yourself). Pathfinder Deadly Aim (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#deadly-aim) would also be golden far as damage goes, though requiring even more To Hit boosting.

While you can't one-shot kill everything, your damage is quite respectable; x5 criticals with massive base damage bonuses can culminate on a single non-magical shot dealing over 200 points of damage on level 20.

[TurtleKing]

Did someone miss the part about moderate optimization of the party?

Sniper Shot replaces Skirmish. It is a full round action so no moving to fire a shot. So I don't kite, but instead act as a turrent. The damage is applied no matter what the range so it doesn't matter how far away they are if it hits. I can then stay in the crow's nest firing off about 5 shots before we are side by side. The Repeating Heavy Crossbow while may not have the damage of a Great Crossbow does allow about twice the number of shots. So I can Sniper Shot 5 rounds in a row with the Repeating Heavy Crossbow for 12 damage on average, or the Great Crossbow with 3 shots dealing 16 damage on average.

Edit: The only bow I would probably go with is a Footbow so can make use of Plunging Shot. Though to this I have to a Raptoran who can hover as well as load it as a free action.

[Zaq]

Did someone miss the part about moderate optimization of the party?

Sniper Shot replaces Skirmish. It is a full round action so no moving to fire a shot. So I don't kite, but instead act as a turrent. The damage is applied no matter what the range so it doesn't matter how far away they are if it hits. I can then stay in the crow's nest firing off about 5 shots before we are side by side. The Repeating Heavy Crossbow while may not have the damage of a Great Crossbow does allow about twice the number of shots. So I can Sniper Shot 5 rounds in a row with the Repeating Heavy Crossbow for 12 damage on average, or the Great Crossbow with 3 shots dealing 16 damage on average.

Edit: The only bow I would probably go with is a Footbow so can make use of Plunging Shot. Though to this I have to a Raptoran who can hover as well as load it as a free action.

"Moderate optimization" can mean anything from "well, all their stats are in the right places, and at least they didn't take Toughness" to "the Wizard isn't going Incantatrix or Shadowcraft Mage, but he still knows that Glitterdust wins battles." If you want a very specific optimization level, you have to be very specific—especially if it's somewhere in the middle.

[TurtleKing]

We have a few new players to D&D. That is the level of optimization. Looking around I have found three different weapons that could work based on a few factors.

The Repeating Heavy Crossbow lets me fire some slightly weaker shots than the other two but more often before changing clips.

The Great Crossbow is possible if the feat Rapid Reload can cut the reloading down to at most a move action. If it can do that then fire one Sniper Shot followed by several normal shots for respectable damage.

The last weapon is the Footbow. If reloading it is a free action then I just need to be a Raptoran with Hover. The reason is Plunging Shot for a "death from above", and have a high STR score so as to add that to damage. If the last one is possible then it will yield the most damage on average.

Note that most of the damage between the three is on average +/-5 of each other.
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Now for the thrower build. Since will likely go Halfling so as to use the racial sub was wondering what the best weapon is that I can use to throw. To be more specific I am looking for a sling that can launch alchemical items as well. Would prefer if its not the Gnome Calculus since that requires a feat to get.

[Eldariel]

Races of the Dragon has 1st level spell called "Ghostly Reload"; free action to reload any Xbow. If you have Use Magic Device, you can get a Wand - it's real nice with Great Crossbow. Tho yeah, I'd go G XBow anyways; if you ever get size increases, it stacks nicely with them.

[NNescio]

The Gnome Crossbow Sight (Arms and Equipment guide) is also great for crossbow snipers. It costs 150 gp, and allows you to shoot a heavy crossbow (or great crossbow) at 360 ft without any penalties whatsoever.

360-ft sniping with a portable ballista. Sounds good on naval campaigns.

Edit: Throw in Cragtop Archer (Races of Stone) and Deepwood Sniper (3.0 though, so work with your DM on conversions), and you can snipe people at ludicrous ranges with a very high chance of scoring criticals. You might need your party wizard to help you aim though, which gives a new meaning to "Scry and Die".

[TurtleKing]

One problem with the Arms & Equipment Guide is it is before 3.5. One change is the Great Xbow from A&E to the Races of the Stone. IN A&E it does 1d12 at 150 feet range increment with a crit of 19-20/x2. In RoS the same weapon does 2d8 at 120 feet range incement with a crit of 18-20/x2. Because of when it was released my DM prefers a 3.5 version instead if possible.

As for that wand that can get costly plus I may not always have the wand to pull that off. The Repeating Heavy Xbow is better in that the reloading of the bolts within the same clip is a free action.

Edit: Cragtop Archer....interesting. Is it possible to take that class without being a certain race? Using a Repeating Heavy Xbow made of Dragonbone with Far Shot results in a 220 ft range increment. Using Arcing Shot and Horizon Shot I could hit some one upto 3300 ft away with no penalty. Next question is can the Sniper Shot bonus to damage be added on to the Horizon Shot ability? Both shots are full round actions. Math time.
By this point in time:

1d10+3d6+2=18 damage on average x5=90 damage on average at that range in half a minute

The sources of damage are the xbow, Sniper Shot, and Crossbow Sniper. So overall the damage is not the greatest, but the range is nearly unmatched.

[NNescio]

One problem with the Arms & Equipment Guide is it is before 3.5. One change is the Great Xbow from A&E to the Races of the Stone. IN A&E it does 1d12 at 150 feet range increment with a crit of 19-20/x2. In RoS the same weapon does 2d8 at 120 feet range incement with a crit of 18-20/x2. Because of when it was released my DM prefers a 3.5 version instead if possible.

As for that wand that can get costly plus I may not always have the wand to pull that off. The Repeating Heavy Xbow is better in that the reloading of the bolts within the same clip is a free action.

I was assuming the RoS's 120ft range increment instead of the A&E's 150 ft.

You can try getting the Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)(ignore the April Fools joke), which gives Unseen Servant at will, allowing you to basically reload heavier crossbows as a move action.

(or even as a free action, depending on DM ruling and how you word the instructions.)

Edit: Cragtop Archer does not have race prerequisites.

[theos911]

Here's a way to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody.

Race: Wood Elf (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 9 for Manyshot, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine, page 61) 1. Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for
Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Quote:
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.
With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.
Original post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8638823&postcount=45)
I know this is crazy op, but it has tons of synergizing abilities. I'm sure there is something in there you can use.

[TurtleKing]

Ok if I play the sniper then I might just go with the Repeating Heavy Xbow for ease of use in play and build.

As for the thrower what feats should I grab? My throwing would probably be from my large sling capable of slinging flasks as well as other ammo. So what feats help with this type of archery.

[NNescio]

Ok if I play the sniper then I might just go with the Repeating Heavy Xbow for ease of use in play and build.

As for the thrower what feats should I grab? My throwing would probably be from my large sling capable of slinging flasks as well as other ammo. So what feats help with this type of archery.

Generally a Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower type would do well. Alternatively, there's the aforementioned Hulking Hurler, but that's rather hard to reign in.

This build might be more in line with your expectations though. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Halfling_Hurler_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build% 29)

[TurtleKing]

As I have said for the thrower build using the halfling racial sub. The benefit is my ranged SA's advance by 1 while the melee SA's are delayed in the progression. At level 19 my melee SA's +9d6 while the ranged SA's +11d6. Also gain a Reflex reroll starting at level 3 for 1/day plus another per 3 levels. At level 10 I get the Sniping Mastery that reduces the penalty to hide again after an attack by half as long as I am farther than 10ft.

Point Blank Shot is obviously the first feat I will take, but what other feats should I grab?

[Curmudgeon]

I've got a sniper build here, but it's quite a bit different from what you outlined: mostly a spellcaster, with an entry to Arcane Archer (at level 12) from a divine spellcasting base. You only need 2 levels of Arcane Archer to pick up Imbue Arrows, which is where you get some serious sniping power. Unlike a lot of builds, I think this one holds up as an archer right from the first level.

I made this build to address a feat issue for an archer, picking up useful feats from a variety of sources. Note the cheesy option is listed for completeness; I don't actually recommend that approach.


Here's a way to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody.

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 6 for Dead Eye, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 1 (Complete Divine, page 61). Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.

There are a bunch of good Cleric area spells that work well with the Arcane Archer Imbue Arrow ability, such as Bane, Circle of Nausea, Anarchic Storm/Axiomatic Storm/Holy Storm/Unholy Storm, and Wave of Grief. Getting to where you can combine those is the hard part.

[TurtleKing]

Thanks for the spellcasting archery builds, but the character is to primarily be martial. The most in the way of magic would be through the magic items which are uncommon in my DM's world. The reason looking for mostly martial type ranged characters.

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks for the spellcasting archery builds, but ...
It's actually just the one build that theos911 copied from me (losing the formatting in the process; that's why they look so different).

Anyway, hard-hitting without magic is going to be tough. The standard Scout 3/Ranger X with Swift Hunter is the most straightforward starting point, because while skirmish is is range-limited, favored enemy doesn't have any distance limits. You just need to solve the 10' movement + full attack problem. If you've got a high budget (can afford the item plus 224 NPC castings of Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)) you can train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master to be able to make 10' adjustments in place of 5' steps. There are other solutions; search and you'll find this issue has been discussed here many times.

You can pick up a bunch of useful feat ideas from my divine archer build. Add Knowledge Devotion for bonuses both to hit and damage, and use the Ranger Arcane Hunter ACF to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists, since that gives decent damage against a large number of the most dangerous enemy types.

I recommend using a composite longbow rather than a crossbow, because the composite longbow will let you add your Strength bonus to damage. You do want the most damage possible on each hit, after all. Also you won't have enough feats or actions to spend on a repeating crossbow. :smallfrown:

Edit: Fixed an error above. I had both favored enemy (correctly) and skirmish (incorrectly) without range limitations. The Ranged Skirmisher feat (Dragon # 346, page 87) extends the usual 30' range limit for skirmish to 60'.

[theos911]

It's actually just the one build that theos911 copied from me (losing the formatting in the process; that's why they look so different)

Quoted, not copied (but someone got my thread locked so I couldn't use the quote button)

[Xetheral]

If you're determined to go the crossbow route, you might want to check out the Quick-Loading crossbow property (MIC 41). Switching Exotic Weapon Proficiency to Rapid Reload and adding this weapon property gives you free-action reloading with a normal heavy crossbow, not to mention tons of versatility with your ammo selection. Always having the perfect bolt (whether for DR, energy type, or even Bane) can be a significant advantage.

Edit: Given the exact wording of each, Quick-Loading and Rapid Reload wouldn't stack. You'll have to ask your DM.

[Curmudgeon]

Edit: Given the exact wording of each, Quick-Loading and Rapid Reload wouldn't stack. You'll have to ask your DM.
You're right; quick loading and Rapid Reload do the same thing: put a new bolt in place. Neither one draws back the string. However, that's exactly what the self-loading feature does; it's a +10,000 gp magical enhancement found in Arms and Equipment Guide. Add that to quick loading and you've got yourself an expensive semi-automatic crossbow.

Of course, since TurtleKing says magic items are uncommon in the campaign world, this is likely just academic.

[TurtleKing]

True true. Money wise we shouldn't be to bad off since we managed to get some loot from the monetary El Dorado. Problem is the local volcano was set off during our little raid. So at most I think we got is around 10k gold I think. Oh well back to raiding merchant ships. Magical enchantments on the weapons are not likely due to how uncommon it is. Reason why I chose the Heavy Repeating Xbow so I could chain 5 Sniper Shots. Sniper Shot turns me into a turrent so I don't move when I do that. Knowledge Devotion may be useful since I only have knowledges: dungeoneering, geography, and nature. The reason I am going for a xbow instead of a bow is because the xbow hits harder. Another reason is so I don't have to have STR and DEX as high as possible.

Edit: The Rapid Reload feat and Quick-loading enchancement makes it a move action to reload a normal heavy xbow not a free action.

[Zaq]

Anyway, hard-hitting without magic is going to be tough. The standard Scout 3/Ranger X with Swift Hunter is the most straightforward starting point, because skirmish and favored enemy don't have any distance limits.

That's not what my copy of Complete Adventurer says. Skirmish has the same 30' limitation as most precision damage, unless there's some kind of errata I'm unaware of.

[Safety Sword]

On topic (but a different angle), how would you build a rogue to maximise ranged sneak attack with a bow? Any build advice? This is a character I might be interested in playing (when I next get to be a player!).

[TurtleKing]

To maximise your SA in terms of range Crossbow Sniper is one of your best bets. Your Skirmish and SA are now out to 60' and half your DEX mod are added on as damage. Use either a hand xbow or a light xbow. Duel wield them so as to pop off even more in one round. Rapid Reload takes them down to a free action to reload. The hand xbow however as a range increments of 30', and can be hidden on you. Xbow Sniper from PHBII does require Weapon Focus. If you could substitute that feat with Hand xbow Focus that is similar but meant for xbows. Get Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot so you don't hit an ally. In this means of sniping you want to hide so you can SA each round. Hiding after attacking takes a -20 penalty to Hide. One way around that is the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis that turns you into a dark creature for upto 10 minutes/day spent in minute segments. Best race is human or one of the human subraces that still has the one extra feat and flaws so as to get the feats needed.

As for a bow I am not sure.

[Curmudgeon]

That's not what my copy of Complete Adventurer says. Skirmish has the same 30' limitation as most precision damage, unless there's some kind of errata I'm unaware of.
Sorry, got distracted (waiting for the web server to stop timing out) and screwed up that bit. Favored enemy doesn't have any distance limitations. You can also take the Ranged Skirmisher feat (Dragon # 346, page 87), which extends the usual 30' range limit for skirmish to 60'.

[TurtleKing]

Still no suggestions for what feats could take for the thrower?

[NNescio]

Still no suggestions for what feats could take for the thrower?

Standard flask rogue fits your concept (alchemical items thrower). Like the link I mentioned earlier.

Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, maybe Far Shot...

(Darkstalker is also nice if you can fit it in.)

Relies on items providing Blink for SA damage (some DMs disallow this though, so check with yours).

Also carries wands of gravestrike, golemstrike, and vinestrike for most creatures immune to SA.

Gets expensive over time though, but you mentioned that you intend to craft your own alchemical gear, which helps with the costs somewhat.

Later on, you can get your party wizard to cast Major Creation to create a temporary pile of alchemical flasks for you to throw. Or Black Lotus Extract (which can be done with Minor Creation, but getting them into glass flasks can be somewhat tricky).

Once your wizard learns Water to Acid (Stormwrack), you'll have a practically infinite supply of acid. You can also get a wand for it instead.

For truly ludicrous damages, have the wizard cast Shrink Item on a gigantic (nonmagical) flask of whatever you want to throw.

[dextercorvia]

Guess what source of Bonus damage doesn't have a range limitation, and can get you throwing as many d6 as Rogue...

Dragonfire Inspiration

[TurtleKing]

What are the Two Weapon Fighting feat chains for? I will most likely be using a sling for my attacks since I can also sling flasks.

Don't know if I will even be able to get those kind of wands. Could also try for the greater weapon augment crystals for constructs and undead though getting them is also iffy at best. Probably best to grab the Truedeath crystal even though it is the most expensive since it could turn into an undead heavy campaign. If that happens then will have to have the ACF Penetrating Strike. That could actually be all I need in that regard for being cheaper though I do lose Trap Sense.

I am also looking at getting Deadeye Shot and Telling Blow. Would Grenadier and Mad Alchemist help me, and if so when would be a good time to take them?

Edit: That bonus is dependent on another party member going bard which is not all that likely. Plus trying to build my characters were they don't need help in combat to fight better though it is appreciated.

[dextercorvia]

TWF chain is for extra attacks with thrown weapons. Extra attacks are nice when you are using SA.

[TurtleKing]

I think that actually falls under Rapid Shot. I don't see dualwielding slings and being able to load them feasible or possible.

[dextercorvia]

It was assuming thrown. Rapid shot has a much higher feat tax to pull off.

[Gnaeus]

On topic (but a different angle), how would you build a rogue to maximise ranged sneak attack with a bow? Any build advice? This is a character I might be interested in playing (when I next get to be a player!).

I would start with Marrulurk, for 2d6 sneak attack, 2 free ranged attack feats, free longbow proficiency, amazing stat bonuses and some other goodies.

[TurtleKing]

Okay got another question mostly meant for the sniper build. What race should I be? So far human and Air Gnome look good. Human for the extra feat, and the Air Gnome for Breathless. Prefer the race to include a bonus feat like the human without LA. Add Jungle Gnome due to the +2 to Swim, Climb, Craft: Shipbuilding, and Use Rope. Shoal Halfling for breathing air and water.

[NNescio]

Okay got another question mostly meant for the sniper build. What race should I be? So far human and Air Gnome look good. Human for the extra feat, and the Air Gnome for Breathless. Prefer the race to include a bonus feat like the human without LA. Add Jungle Gnome due to the +2 to Swim, Climb, Craft: Shipbuilding, and Use Rope. Shoal Halfling for breathing air and water.

Strongheart Halfing, as normal (lightfoot) halfings, but loses the "+1 racial bonus on all saving throws" in exchange for a bonus feat.

[TurtleKing]

Where are the Strongheart Halfings found as well as the Silverbrow Humans? I have the Crystal Keep Races Index and I can't find them on there.

So far are looking at:



Human
Strongheart Halflings
Air Gnome
Jungle Gnome
Shoal Halfling
Phanaton (one of DM's favorite races plus gliding is nice)
Hadozee (same as Phanaton)
Killoren- for the Hunter aspect since planning on my sniper being a big game hunter
Silverbrow Humans?

[Curmudgeon]

You might try a lesser Dust Para-Genasi. Dragon # 297 (pages 62-66) has extra planetouched races (all +1 LA). Add the lesser planetouched modification (Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 191) and they become +0 LA Humanoids rather than Outsiders.

Dust Para-Genasi has (among other things) +4 DEX, favored class Rogue, and also doesn't breathe.

[TurtleKing]

I should also mention there is some planar instability. Spells that either deal with teleportation or planar effects in general are a bit wonky. By extension extra planar races are also a big if. Also wouldn't count on pulling from Faerun, Eberron, Forgotton Realms, etc.

[Gnaeus]

Starting at level 1?

[TurtleKing]

Nope this is one of the backup characters to my baby black dragon Duskblade who is the party's main arcanist at the moment.:smallcool: Level 7 currently.

[EnnPeeCee]

I got help here building a sniper type character with a great crossbow a while ago.
Heres the thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165108

TBH, I didn't read much of what was posted here, so everything could've already been covered.

Hope I helped. :smallsmile:

[Safety Sword]

I would start with Marrulurk, for 2d6 sneak attack, 2 free ranged attack feats, free longbow proficiency, amazing stat bonuses and some other goodies.

Which book are they hiding in?

Edit: Sandstorm. Don't think that it's going to fly with the DM I'll probably have. A bit "too monstrous" if you take my meaning.

[TurtleKing]

Ok found the Strongheart Halflings are hiding in a Forgotten Realms book. What about the Silverbrow Humans? Azurins can also fit into the character with a BIG if.

Edit: Where book holds the Silverbrow Humans? I tried with google, but my google-fu is not enough.

[TurtleKing]

Ok while still working on my Grenadier rogue build let me unveil so far of the Sniper build.

Plan on going straight Scout till level 10. At that point take levels in Cragtop Archer till finished. Finish up with more Scout from there. If I don't play a race that gets a bonus feat then dip Fighter at level 2 for the feat. Doing so only sets the build back by one level. Gain these feats in this order Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot or EWP: Repeating Xbow, Knowledge Devotion, Mountain Warrior, Far Shot, and Plunging Shot (if possible). After this it becomes a lot more open so I could go with a number of things. Will be using a Heavy Repeating Xbow so as to "machine gun" my sniper shots due to how long the combat lasts. Other options of ranged heavy hitters are Great Xbow, Footbow +4, Mighty +4 Composite Great Bow, Energy Bow, and any ranged weapon with the force enhancement. If using one of the weapons that fire less often then focus on critting more often for a ton of damage. Going to have the character has a 'big game hunter'. The Fighter dip looks more likely since be playing a Hadozee, Killoren, Phanaton, or one of the gnomes or halfling subraces.

[NNescio]

What about Flaw: Noncombatant?

[Cog]

Edit: Where book holds the Silverbrow Humans? I tried with google, but my google-fu is not enough.
Dragon Magic.

[TurtleKing]

I am plannin on getting that if possible, but there is one problem. The prerequisites for EWP: Repeating Xbow and Knowledge Devotion are a little bit of a problem. As such I have to save those feats for the 3rd and 6th levels.

Got a question. Does using Craptop Archer abilities make Plunging Shot possible or usable?

[ILM]

Okay got another question mostly meant for the sniper build. What race should I be? So far human and Air Gnome look good. Human for the extra feat, and the Air Gnome for Breathless. Prefer the race to include a bonus feat like the human without LA. Add Jungle Gnome due to the +2 to Swim, Climb, Craft: Shipbuilding, and Use Rope. Shoal Halfling for breathing air and water.
How about Whisper Gnome (RoS)? +2 dex, +2 con, -2 str, -2 cha, massive bonus to Hide and other assorted stuff like SLAs and other skill bonuses. No additional feat though.

[Cog]

Got a question. Does using Craptop Archer abilities make Plunging Shot possible or usable?
I'm assuming you're referring to the Arcing Shot ability. If so:
If your target is at least 30 feet lower than you...
The height that the projectile falls from doesn't matter; it's the difference between where it starts and where it ends that's critical.

[TurtleKing]

Nice on the Whisper Gnome adding that to the list of races. The Plunging Shot in that case is possible then since a good portion of combat being on the boat. The spot I will be firing from is the crow's nest so just have to measure how far it is from the deck to the crows nest.

[ILM]

Nice on the Whisper Gnome adding that to the list of races. The Plunging Shot in that case is possible then since a good portion of combat being on the boat. The spot I will be firing from is the crow's nest so just have to measure how far it is from the deck to the crows nest.
Apologies if I missed something, but can't you just get a way to fly (Winged Boots, spell from a friendly caster, flying mount, etc.) and shoot from way up?

[TurtleKing]

Maybe but the question is now how much concentration is needed to stay aloft. If it requires more than a free/immediate/swift action than I can't fire my Sniper Shot. Another thing this is my back up character to the party's main arcanist. As for firing off a flying mount will require even more feats and control to be effective. So unless I pick a race that grants flight that only requires the concentration of walking flying is not an option.

[Cog]

As long as you have at least good maneuverability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions), you can hover freely.

[TurtleKing]

How can I pull that off at level 7 without having to use magic. Raptorans don't have that capability to possibly 10 HD and on, but then require improving my maneuverability. Also going that route adds a lot more feats the table.

Edit:If this is possible then have a high Str as well to use a Footbow for slightly less range but more damage. Next problem is Scout has limited martial weapon proficiency which won't automatically include the Footbow. Plunging Shot is not necessary has been indicated of gaining it late just a bonus.

[TurtleKing]

Alright things have just gotten interesting. Might go psionic for the Sniper. If I go for a Small size race such as Halfling or Gnome then will go Scout variant Sniper. If I go Hadozee then I could go psionic has the Dm has made them a psionic race in his world. I have rolled up my scores for stats, but have not allocated them yet to the stats. It is 7, 9, 12, 12, 13, 15 plus a +2 Dex and a -2 Cha. So what psionic class would fit the sniper build in long range heavy damage? Also wondering what feats and powers would work for the sniper build as well? I am basically new to psionics.

Edit: I do have the Complete Psionics and Expanded Psionic Handbook.

[TurtleKing]

Ok I am now playing my Hadozee Psychic Warrior.

Feats:

Point Blank Shot
Zen Archery
Precise Shot
Seafarer- free feat from DM
Psionic Shot
Psionic Body
Psionic Talent
Expanded Knowledge aquired vy Flaw: Distrust Arcane Casters


Powers:

1st- Call Weaponry, Extend Range, Vigor, Force Screen
2nd- Animal Affinity, Energy Emanation, Dissolving Weapon
3rd- Vampiric Blade


Silly me I didn't already take Float yet, but when I get next level then I will grab it. Thankfully I have Ring of Swimming so I now have a 11 modifer. What else would be good for my sniper, and would like to stay psionic if possible?

Edit: Experience with this character of his ranged attacks are not to shabby. Of my two big shots only one made it against an target that is not that hard. The other one in an armored crow's nest didn't get hit even though I have a +12 at level 7 (situational). The strike that did hit from all my buffing did 30 points of damage from the bow+STR+Psionic Shot+Dissolving Weapon and thats not even a critical. So if I hit it is likely I do a lot of damage. Looking at taking Psionic Meditation at lvl 8 from the bonus feat and Improved Initiative at lvl 9. Once level 8 will be doing 1d8+3+2d6 a shot.