Telekinesis and Grappling

[Abbalah]

I'm toying with a ghost-based character build that would rely heavily on using Telekinesis to grapple, and I'm a bit confused on a couple points I haven't been able to find answers for:

Does telekinesis allow you to grapple at range? It seems logically like that's the point, but it's not specifically called out in the spell description. And if so, does the melee touch attack normally required to initiate a grapple become a ranged touch attack, or is it obviated entirely? And since I'm grappling with a spell, does my size modifier come into play even though my body isn't actually involved? Again, it seems like logically no, but just from reading the spell description it isn't mentioned specifically.

Basically there seems to be a pretty big gulf between what seems to be the point of the spell and what is actually spelled out in the description, and I'm curious as to whether it's been resolved specifically somewhere.

[playswithfire]

Which spell description are you looking at? I see grappling mentioned here (http://dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Telekinesis) (quoted with emphasis below)



Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.

[Abbalah]

Which spell description are you looking at? I see grappling mentioned here (http://dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Telekinesis) (quoted with emphasis below)

Right, that's what I'm looking at. Thing is that 'resolving the grapple attempt as normal' would involve being in melee range, making a melee touch to grab, using my size modifier as part of my grapple check, moving into the target's space to maintain the grab, and so forth, which seems counter to the whole point of Telekinesis, which is to manipulate objects at a distance.

I'd like to know if the intent and/or functionality of that part of the spell has been made more clear somewhere else that I'm missing.

[playswithfire]

I'm not sure it's spelled out more explicitly anywhere. I think I'd always read it as that you could target any character within the spell's range and that the caster level instead of BAB and casting stat instead of Strength applied to the touch attack as well as the grapple check. You don't need to be in the same square as your target; essentially the spell is in the same square, not you.

As for size, I imagine the spell is always the same size, presumably Medium, though that's more speculative.

[JohnDaBarr]

and yeah you need to maintain the spell with concentration check so I'm confused is that check a standard action, move action or what??

[WinWin]

Concentration requires no action unless the description says otherwise. You can't be stunned or dazed and may need to make Concentration skill checks when taking damage. Without support, you can typically only concentrate on one spell at a time.

Grappling at range does not require the wizard to move into the targets space. It's the spell doing the grappling, not the Wizard. Similar to the Ranged Pin feat, the Arrow does the grappling, not the guy that fired it.

[ericgrau]

Not so, concentration requires a standard action each round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration). The spell ends if you ever cease to do so. It seems like telekinesis does let you grapple at the spell's range; I don't know how it could make sense otherwise. I should note that your bonus is similar to a medium sized fighter who hasn't put any feats towards grappling, so pick easy targets to grapple. Though the advantage is range and versatility, so picking targets or even switching maneuvers shouldn't be hard.

[WinWin]

my bad. Last caster I played did not have to worry about that for a couple of rounds.

Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm)

Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration)

Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#concentration)

[ShriekingDrake]

Moreover, I've always wondered which modifier to use if you don't happen to be a Wizard or Sorcerer, for instance if you're a Ninja or Cleric who has a ring of Telekinesis.

[Forged Fury]

Moreover, I've always wondered which modifier to use if you don't happen to be a Wizard or Sorcerer, for instance if you're a Ninja or Cleric who has a ring of Telekinesis.
I don't think there is a RAW answer on this. I'd probably give it a static bonus tied to an attribute score of 15 (+2) since telekenesis is a 5th level spell and would require a 15 in the casting attribute to cast (similar to scroll DC bonuses).

[Prime32]

Charisma seems to be the default (being the score used for spell-like abilities). Or it could depend on who crafted the item.

[ericgrau]

Moreover, I've always wondered which modifier to use if you don't happen to be a Wizard or Sorcerer, for instance if you're a Ninja or Cleric who has a ring of Telekinesis.

I believe the default is the minimum ability score required to use the spell. So the item gets an effective charisma of 15 for its ability regardless of the wielder. I'm pretty sure it's this way for scrolls at least, but I'm too lazy to find the exact rule right now to see if it goes for rings too. Someone else can take it from here :P.

[waddafac]

does someone know if telekinesis can be used to grapple ghosts/incorporeals etc. cantripn wrote that you can use it to grapple incorporeals but i really didn't find anything about that. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870586/CantripNs_Guide_to_Transmutation_Spells:_Gods_Gift s?pg=1my doubt was given thinking about that telekinesis it's not a force effect(but not the psion's one :/ ) but actually it doesn't create any effect. it just targets a creature/object.and since there isn't a direct link (like a magic hand similar to bigby's) i don't think that the force descriptor is needed (you don't create anything so why it has to be descripted).
note that incorporeals CAN be grappled(like by other incorporeals,or force effects if you want), and use dexterity instead of the strenght. (in the MM the rulings concern the grapple between corporeals and incorporeals.)

[Popertop]

Charisma seems to be the default (being the score used for spell-like abilities). Or it could depend on who crafted the item.

It would go off whatever CL the crafter used, and the minimum ability score I think.

[Keld Denar]

From the SRD


Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled.

This is in a seperate section from where it talks about force effects affecting incorps. So, you could blast a ghost with a Magic Missile, but you couldn't grope one with a TK Combat Maneuver, nor could you give it the bad touch with Bigby's Inappropriate Grasp.

[Hyfigh]

So, you could blast a ghost with a Magic Missile, but you couldn't grope one with a TK Combat Maneuver, nor could you give it the bad touch with Bigby's Inappropriate Grasp.

Giggitty, giggitty goo.