Matrim Cauthon - Help me build him.

[Daftendirekt]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_-L_-pblm51w/TLyuBRzpBnI/AAAAAAAAAMI/QB2dCrHc3r4/s512/634px-Mat.jpg

"Blood and bloody ashes!"

I'm sure for any of you who've read the Wheel of Time series, Mat is on your list of favorite characters just as he is on mine. And now I want to make him a 3.5 DND character. So, let's do it. What weapon is closest to his ashandarei? What about his fox-head amulet? While the WotCS has stats for an ashandarei, do you think that they are accurate/good? Also, the build for him there is rather pathetic: Wanderer 9/Commander 6 (pretty much rogue/marshal). While rogue is a good start, there's got to be a more impressive way to put such a good character together.

So, let's hear it.

[Urpriest]

Definitely go for Luck feats, and probably Fortune's Friend. Maybe replace Rogue or Wanderer with Factotum, perhaps gestalted with a White Raven-focused Warblade for command stuff.

[Daftendirekt]

And what about his penchant for throwing daggers, or even just his fighting style with the ashandarei?

Also, is there a source of free luck feats, like how VoP gets you free exalted feats? While they definitely go with who he is, there are better feats to take, and Luck feats would be an annoying feat drain, even with flaws.

[PinkysBrain]

The amulet would really work best as a legacy item which grows in power as the character levels.

With things like resistance bonuses to saves (scaling with level), continuous protection from evil (really powerful), non detection (CL scaling with level), spell resistance (scaling with level) and and around level 15 command word AMF.

PS. the normal rules for legacy items has lots of abilities which don't scale, which sucks ... so work out something better with your DM.

[Jarian]

Are you looking for explicitly official material?

Because there's a luckthief out there that fits him to a T (or almost, at least).

[Douglas]

Definitely needs a lot of luck focus. I'm not sure rogue or factotum really fit, though. He's got a lot of charm and behaves like a scoundrel, but sneak attack and most of the rogueish skills don't really fit.

I think a few levels in Swashbuckler would be perfect, maybe some Marshal for the commander aspect. The primary focus really needs to be his luck, though.

[Jarian]

Actually, a Factotum with the focus switched to Charisma would be just about perfect.

Sneak attack not fitting? What about all those times he "accidentally" threw a knife in just the perfect place - both eyes at once, for instance.

Replace all the "knows a little bit about everything" flavor with "blind luck", and it's a great start.

[person29]

Sneak attack not fitting? What about all those times he "accidentally" threw a knife in just the perfect place - both eyes at once, for instance.



critical hit?

[Douglas]

Sneak attack not fitting? What about all those times he "accidentally" threw a knife in just the perfect place - both eyes at once, for instance.
That's a high crit range plus luck, not deliberately distracting someone and then going for the vitals.

[Jarian]

critical hit?

Guess he was fighting Commoners then. :smallamused:

[Daftendirekt]

and around level 15 command word AMF.
I'm assuming it would just be around Mat. Which means he couldn't have any other magic items. I know, in the WoT universe he didn't have any other "magic" items. But in a 3.5 DND game, he would. And AMF on the amulet would suppress all of them, making them useless...

[person29]

Guess he was fighting Commoners then. :smallamused:

I haven't read the whole series yet so I don't know the specific time you are referring to, but hitting someone in the eye "by accident" would be a crit, not SA...since you choose to sneak attack and can't will yourself to crit...it is an x% chance

[Jarian]

Perhaps. But normal criticals really don't reflect the incredible damage of his luck, if you assume he was fighting anything vaguely near his level.

Repeat question on the official vs. unofficial. Like I said, the Luckthief can do almost everything Mat is known for.

[Daftendirekt]

Link it. I'm sure my DM would accept it as long as he read it over and it wasn't broken or anything.

[Jarian]

Click. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50900)

The spells don't fit, but hey. You could probably convince your DM to drop all spellcasting for spell resistance.

[Jarian]

Regarding the Ashandarei, I'd peg it as a longspear that does either piercing or slashing damage. Mat obviously has some of the Dragon Compendium Spear Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10682609&postcount=21) to let him use it the way he does.

Edit: Whoops, doublepost. Thought that was an edit for some reason...

[Daftendirekt]

Well, there are stats for the ashandarei in the WoTCS

1d6/1d8, 19-20/x2, bludgeoning and slashing (really should be or, not and)

So, not the greatest thing out there. I see it having reach as well. Probably have to houserule something...

[Coidzor]

This bit about leadership mechanics in D&D should be of interest. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3065.0) Y'know, since he is supposed to be a fractactical military genius if I remember the books correctly.

From our own friendly neighbourhood JaronK.

[Daftendirekt]

Just reading about the "Making Correct Decisions" part of that and the mention of Int and Wisdom. I see Mat as having fairly high in and about average wisdom (super high charisma, too, obviously :smallwink:). He gets himself into a lot of scraps, whether he wants/means to or not. His military prowess isn't from long, deep musing -- it's from memories implanted in his head.

[PollyOliver]

In non-gestalt, I'd make him a human warblade for the INT synergy with white raven to cover the command aspect, using his weapon aptitude to shift his original weapon focus from quarterstaff to whatever you think the closest equivalent of Ashandarei is. Give him a masterwork of whatever weapon is closest. He'd two-weapon fight with both ends of it using iron heart and tiger claw maneuvers, with likely some diamond mind shenanigans thrown in. Despite his lack of elf-hood, I'd say he'd go into a modified eternal blade, with the blade guide re-fluffed as his memories of past commanders and blademasters (occasional bonuses to fighting ability and knowledge skills hits it right on the head), with his trip through the doorway as a "special" requirement getting him into the class.

Either give him some flaws, whip up a feat with some drawbacks that gives you free luck feats to compensate ala VoP with exalted, or drop a Ta'veren template on him that grants luck feats in order to give him a handful of those and still have enough feats for two-weapon fighting. Some keen daggers and some luck feats can handle his penchant for devastating critical hits. If he has the feats, leadership would be a good idea.

He'd have high INT and CHA, and I'd say higher DEX than STR. I'd say he'd start out with lower or average WIS and put some of his level-up points into it, despite its relative non-importance for his build. He starts out as the village troublemaker and clown and winds up as a fairly responsible leader.

The easiest way to handle his amulet might be to just have it give an insanely high SR.

It's not perfect--there's no real ToB support for archery, and he's a pretty good shot, for example--but I think it works pretty well.

Oh, and don't forget the hat. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Levels in Fortune's Friend for certain. Two free Luck feats, and three extra luck re-rolls on top of that.

[PollyOliver]

Levels in Fortune's Friend for certain. Two free Luck feats, and three extra luck re-rolls on top of that.

I don' think I've seen that class before (or have, but didn't pay any attention), but it's perfect. Is it in CS?

[Tvtyrant]

Swordsage with a glaive? :P

Otherwise I would just go Cleric 1 with luck domain and war domain: Glaive and then go the standard Horizon Tripper type if inside of core.

[Seerow]

Swordsage with a glaive? :P

Otherwise I would just go Cleric 1 with luck domain and war domain: Glaive and then go the standard Horizon Tripper type if inside of core.

Yeah, cause Matt is the spitting image of a priest, with all that mojo and magical healing he throws around.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, cause Matt is the spitting image of a priest, with all that mojo and magical healing he throws around.

Give him no wisdom and just use the domain abilities. You get +1/+1 with glaives and the ability to reroll for 1 level.

[PollyOliver]

Okay, here's my go at it. This is how I think of Mat, so obviously your mileage may vary. Also, sorry for the absurdly long post.

Unfortunately, I’m away from my copy of ToB at the moment (fortunately not CS), so I don’t know what the requirements for Eternal blade are. I’m probably missing something , which will require reworking. This isn't really RAW; I'm depending on his misadventure with the Snakes and Foxes (fey?) to sneak him into eternal blade, with his memories being equivalent to a blade guide, because the class is too perfect otherwise.

Ideally, you would be able to trade fortune’s friend advancing half CL to full IL (since half is default for all classes); if not, take an even number of fortune's friend levels. Either way, he will have to choose between going warblade 7/8 after finishing as much fortune's friend as you want to get INT to damage and one last tiger claw maneuver before eternal blade, or giving up on that and taking more levels of fortune's friend. I chose the latter, but I think either is Mat-like. Warblade 10 is perfectly awesome if you can still get him enough luck feats. Leadership is so late because Mat gets his posse after he gets his memories.

Human: DEX ~ CHA > INT > STR ~ CON > WIS
Increase wisdom at level up, to model him becoming more responsible and less absurd (though maybe the badger thing casts some doubt on that), except +1 DEX at or before level 12 so he can qualify for greater two-weapon fighting (assuming starting 18).

Warblade 1 Weapon focus (quarterstaff), two-weapon fighting, lucky fingers, victor’s luck, curious, loudmouth
Warblade 2
Warblade 3 Advantageous avoidance
Warblade 4
Warblade 5 (Lightning reflexes)
Fortune’s friend 1 Improved two-weapon fighting
Fortune’s friend 2 (Tempting fate)
Fortune's friend 3
Warblade 6 (Dumb luck or better lucky than good; take the other later)
Warblade 7
Eternal blade 1
Eternal blade 2 Greater two-weapon fighting
Eternal blade 3
Eternal blade 4
Eternal blade 5 Leadership
etc. (Pick up the other of dumb luck or better lucky than good or martial study at 18)

In terms of maneuvers, I would give him lower and mid-level tiger claw and some iron heart maneuvers that let you attack multiple enemies. Lower level white raven maneuvers to represent his skill as a leader, and diamond mind maneuvers if there’s space, mostly as pre-reqs for Time Stands Still. He might blow a feat later to pick up another tiger claw maneuver, since eternal blade loses access.

He gets INT to reflex saves and critical hit confirmation (and flat-footed damage, if you only go fortune's friend 2 or 3), and can add his fortune's friend level to things as a luck bonus. He can stabilize at -9 hp instead of dying (the wall falling on him thing), gets re-rolls on sleight of hand for his gambling, and can re-roll critical confirmations of enemies and himself. He can treat natural 1's at natural 20's for a couple effects, which seems very Mat-like.

Given Mat’s penchant for absurd critical hits, I imagine him fighting in Blood in the Water stance, either using a tiger claw boost with a full attack, pouncing charge, or an iron heart strike, and my assumption is that his Ashandarei is somehow non-magically keen (it can touch the Gholam) and has a high threat range to begin with. He uses weapon aptitude to switch his weapon focus to it when he gets it. The bonus damage from Blood in the Water should make two-weapon fighting at least marginally viable, especially given that he can force critical hits with his luck feats. His amulet gives him a suitably absurd spell-resistance. He also has a few daggers, some of which may be keen, and a masterwork longbow.

[Seerow]

and my assumption is that his Ashandarei is somehow non-magically keen

I was under the impression it was explicitly a power forged weapon. I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure. As to it being able to touch the Ghollam, it never actually did damage to the Ghollam, only the medallion did. While weaves do unravel when they touch it, there's nothing to say something as permanent as a power forged weapon would, so I wouldn't call that proof either way.


I pretty much agree with everything else though, I'd say that's about as fair a representation as we're likely to find using D&D.

[PollyOliver]

I was under the impression it was explicitly a power forged weapon. I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure. As to it being able to touch the Ghollam, it never actually did damage to the Ghollam, only the medallion did. While weaves do unravel when they touch it, there's nothing to say something as permanent as a power forged weapon would, so I wouldn't call that proof either way.


I pretty much agree with everything else though, I'd say that's about as fair a representation as we're likely to find using D&D.

That's true, on the Ashandarei; if power-forged weapons are magical, then I guess it would be magical. Still keen, and I'd give it an enhancement bonus at that point too, I think.

[MammonAzrael]

I think Mat is very tricky to represent in a d20 system, as a lot of his abilities aren't gained in the classic level sense.

He is, in his own right, a highly skilled warrior (quaterstaff, longbow, and daggers, to the point of being better than your average blademaster), an incredibly gifted sneak and general rogue, and a very charming man. He is surprisingly intelligent, no more foolish than the average person, and remarkably dexterous (he can snag daggers out of the air that have been hurled at him!).

His "gift" from the Eelfinn of all those memories made him one of the most experienced and gifted generals in history. In addition, the memories augmented his already masterful combat skills. They also granted him a large pool of historical and courtly knowledge.

And finally, his status as one of the most powerful ta'veren to have ever have existed has granted him an untold number of bonuses, the most obvious of which is his luck.

From a level perspective, I feel that rogue makes the most base sense. His skill with the quaterstaff and bow and daggers I could see translating into him having some maneuvers, but it feels a little iffy. Once the memories are gained in The Shadow Rising, His focus does shift some from rogue to something more martial. He doesn't really accept his command until later, at which point it flourishes.

His granted memories should be granting him a huge number of bonuses, and should probably be an acquired template. Granting massive bonuses to Knowledge (history), Knowledge (warfare), Martial Lore, and similar skills. Additionally it probably grants maneuvers, proficiency or focus in a large number of weapons, and probably more.

His status as a ta'veren should likewise be an acquired template, and grant him luck feats, luck bonuses, plot armor, and more.

I think the key to building him is to separate which abilities he has displayed come from (or are augmented by) his ta'veren nature and his memories. From there you can follow his path through the books and build his levels accordingly.

As for his Ashandarei - I'm not sure if it should have reach, since it is describe pretty much as a spear with two foot sword blade instead of a...pointy tip. And he uses it almost exclusively as a modified quaterstaff. Certainly magical given that it is a power-wrought weapon. Given that it has no obvious supernatural abilities beyond it's skilled construction and the abilities displayed in Towers of Midnight...I'd rate it as a +2 through +5 weapon, the sword end having the keen ability. The final ability is obviously unique.

His medallion...I'd say it is a ter'angreal that grants the wearer immunity to spells that allow spell resistance. I feel it shouldn't block things like orb of fire, but I have no idea how it would interact with something like black tentacles or solid fog. There are just no correlations in the D&D universe.

[person29]

I think his first level should be commoner

how many times does he comment internally or to others of how he shouldnt be in whatever position he is in, he was just a farmboy

[PollyOliver]

I think his first level should be commoner

how many times does he comment internally or to others of how he shouldnt be in whatever position he is in, he was just a farmboy

Yeah, technically it probably should. It's just that given that rationale, almost every player character's first level should be in an NPC class, assuming they weren't raised by wolves or a swordmaster in hiding.

In my head I justify it this way, though it's admittedly a little silly: just as a monster with 1 RHD loses the RHD with a class level, adventurers with 1 level of an NPC class lose that class level when they gain a PC class level. It also helps out when we lose a PC and the player wants to take over an NPC we've been hanging out with.

[Seerow]

As for his Ashandarei - I'm not sure if it should have reach, since it is describe pretty much as a spear with two foot sword blade instead of a...pointy tip. And he uses it almost exclusively as a modified quaterstaff. Certainly magical given that it is a power-wrought weapon. Given that it has no obvious supernatural abilities beyond it's skilled construction and the abilities displayed in Towers of Midnight...I'd rate it as a +2 through +5 weapon, the sword end having the keen ability. The final ability is obviously unique.


This is how I'd put it:


Ashandrei
1d8 slashing/1d6 bludgeoning 19-20x2
Special: May be used either as a double weapon, attacking with each side, or as a reach weapon using the slashing end. Both ends must be enchanted separately.


Matt's Ashandrei would be +5 Keen/+5, possibly with other bonuses that would seem passive enough to fit in the setting. For example, I could see defending on the bludgeoning end and speed on the slashing end, as fitting in with what we see from him pretty well. Most of it is likely attributable more to skill than the magic itself, but it's not outrageous to assume these properties.



As to the templates, are there any templates that actually fit what we're looking for? Or is that going back into homebrew territory?

[person29]

Yeah, technically it probably should. It's just that given that rationale, almost every player character's first level should be in an NPC class, assuming they weren't raised by wolves or a swordmaster in hiding.

In my head I justify it this way, though it's admittedly a little silly: just as a monster with 1 RHD loses the RHD with a class level, adventurers with 1 level of an NPC class lose that class level when they gain a PC class level. It also helps out when we lose a PC and the player wants to take over an NPC we've been hanging out with.


Good justification :) I just wanted to put a stick in the spokes of optimization

[RaginChangeling]

Good justification :) I just wanted to put a stick in the spokes of optimization

Having his first level as a commoner means that Mat would have to be an absurdly high level in a D&D system to fully represent the abilities he has though. Levels, and classes, are an abstraction made to represent what a person can do. People can be farmers and still be mechanically be Fighters, Tam al'Thor would probably fit this mold specifically considering his history in Illidan's army. Likewise, even in the Two Rivers, all of the Ta'veren demonstrated combat ability beyond what is modeled by the commoner class with their bows, slings and Sword/Axe.

I think the worst part of this exercise is probably that Mat is the easiest main character to model. I can't even imagine trying to model Perrin or Rand in 3.5, I mean Perrin is some insane mashup of Barbarian/Druid/Artificer with Dreamwalking and Rand... Channelling is not exactly something D&D can model very well.

And they all have some degree of +insane to their diplomacy and intimidate modifiers. And some version of foresight or massive deflection AC bonuses.

[Seerow]

I think the worst part of this exercise is probably that Mat is the easiest main character to model. I can't even imagine trying to model Perrin or Rand in 3.5, I mean Perrin is some insane mashup of Barbarian/Druid/Artificer with Dreamwalking and Rand... Channelling is not exactly something D&D can model very well.


Really? I can see the others as being pretty easy. Rand would be some form of gish, likely with a sorcerer or warmage base, or maybe a Psion base, with a focus on blasting rather than mental manipulation.

For Perrin, I don't know where you got Artificer. Sure the actions in the recent book had him playing an integral part of forging his hammer, but most of the actual infusion was done by the channelers with him, not by him. He also doesn't have any sort of casting, so Druid seems pushing it. Though he is harder to model, not because of the abilities he has, but how to get those abilities without getting things that don't fit. Giving him Druid for example gets him full 9th level casting which doesn't fit at all. I'd personally peg him as Ranger with a modified thrallherd prestige class, with a template that gives him mind link (wolves only) and the ability to astrally project (the world of dreams seems to be the equivalent of what we usually think of as astral space). I would represent what happens with Mah'alleinir as just having ranks in Craft(Blacksmithing).

[RaginChangeling]

Really? I can see the others as being pretty easy. Rand would be some form of gish, likely with a sorcerer or warmage base, or maybe a Psion base, with a focus on blasting rather than mental manipulation.

For Perrin, I don't know where you got Artificer. Sure the actions in the recent book had him playing an integral part of forging his hammer, but most of the actual infusion was done by the channelers with him, not by him. He also doesn't have any sort of casting, so Druid seems pushing it. Though he is harder to model, not because of the abilities he has, but how to get those abilities without getting things that don't fit. Giving him Druid for example gets him full 9th level casting which doesn't fit at all. I'd personally peg him as Ranger with a modified thrallherd prestige class, with a template that gives him mind link (wolves only) and the ability to astrally project (the world of dreams seems to be the equivalent of what we usually think of as astral space). I would represent what happens with Mah'alleinir as just having ranks in Craft(Blacksmithing).

My point was mostly that it was difficult to build them without giving them abilities they don't have. Rand is some kind of epic, or near epic, level caster with the spell recharge mechanic or something. Rand can do the equivalent of casting a dozen or so spells at once, I'm not sure how you could model that at all.

For Perrin I was mostly going with Druid because he needs some kind of astral projection and wild empathy as well as 'speak with animals' even if it is limited. He also has some limited divination. The forging of Mah'alleinir was also probably a Ta'veren thing more than a straight skill check, something possessed all the people involved in it and compelled them.

[MammonAzrael]

This is how I'd put it:


Ashandrei
1d8 slashing/1d6 bludgeoning 19-20x2
Special: May be used either as a double weapon, attacking with each side, or as a reach weapon using the slashing end. Both ends must be enchanted separately.

Matt's Ashandrei would be +5 Keen/+5, possibly with other bonuses that would seem passive enough to fit in the setting. For example, I could see defending on the bludgeoning end and speed on the slashing end, as fitting in with what we see from him pretty well. Most of it is likely attributable more to skill than the magic itself, but it's not outrageous to assume these properties.

As to the templates, are there any templates that actually fit what we're looking for? Or is that going back into homebrew territory?

I can understand making the bonus a +5...but I'm not on board with the defensive option that much. Same with speed, since that is not something the weapon imparts to him, or anyone else.

As from the templates, they would both fall solidly into homebrew territory. Note that I am discussing this from the position of modeling Mat accurately within the framework of the 3.5 rule system, but not from the point of using only existing features to create him (which I believe is impossible, given the differences in the fundamental workings of the settings). The magic angle will have the most...passing...acquaintance with 3.5.

[Daftendirekt]

Here's what the WoTCS says about the foxhead medallion:

"No weave has any effect on him. He cannot be Healed, moved with flows of Air, tricked by Illusion, or harmed (even by balefire!) Of course, a channeler can still harm him indirectly--for example, by hurling boulders at him or by setting on fire the building he is in. When someone channels against the wearer, or even embraces the Source within 30 feet of him, the medallion turns icy cold, alerting him to the potential assault."

So, here's how I interpret that. Target spells cannot target him. AoE would still be a go. I dunno, if one uses normal 3.5 system instead of the channeling system from the WotCS, lots of the stuff doesn't translate well if at all.

[Seerow]

My point was mostly that it was difficult to build them without giving them abilities they don't have. Rand is some kind of epic, or near epic, level caster with the spell recharge mechanic or something. Rand can do the equivalent of casting a dozen or so spells at once, I'm not sure how you could model that at all.

That's a fair point, when you get beyond doing 2-3 spells per round, you're treading deep into homebrew territory. But while rand can maintain up to 12 spells at once, do we see him casting that many all at once? And if so was it that many different spells, or was it something like multiple air bindings and multiple shields (which could be explained via a mass enhancement to the spell. Or in the case of say 2 fireballs at once, a twined metamagic spell)


For Perrin I was mostly going with Druid because he needs some kind of astral projection and wild empathy as well as 'speak with animals' even if it is limited. He also has some limited divination. The forging of Mah'alleinir was also probably a Ta'veren thing more than a straight skill check, something possessed all the people involved in it and compelled them.

Well his craftsmanship was involved in the crafting of the hammer, but yeah it was almost certainly a ta'veren twisting that possessed the channelers to jump in and do what they did. My point was that doing so doesn't make him a artificer. If anything it just made it so the Asha'man who jumped in first and was leading the circle spontaneously picked up "craft magic item", and something with the direct involvement of a ta'veren crafting something for himself provided some circumstance bonus to his effective CL for the crafting (note the later attempts at recreating it being weaker than the first).


But yeah, so much of what the 3 do is attributed to being ta'veren, a ta'veren template would be something nice to work with.



I can understand making the bonus a +5...but I'm not on board with the defensive option that much. Same with speed, since that is not something the weapon imparts to him, or anyone else.


Matt wielding the Ashandrei is frequently described as moving with supernatural speed, he's the only one who was able to keep up with the Gholam even before realizing the foxhead could hurt it (which then caused the gholam to move more cautiously so it is easier). The defending could be done for himself with combat expertise, but he defends far more efficiently with the weapon in hand than completely unarmed, so I'd argue that there is reason to tie defensive to a weapon somehow.

Maybe as a part of one of the templates grant those effects anytime he's wielding any weapon? ie he can as an ex ability treat any weapon he wields as having the speed and defending properties, that way it's clearly coming from him, but has the same mechanical benefit.

[MammonAzrael]

That's a fair point, when you get beyond doing 2-3 spells per round, you're treading deep into homebrew territory. But while rand can maintain up to 12 spells at once, do we see him casting that many all at once? And if so was it that many different spells, or was it something like multiple air bindings and multiple shields (which could be explained via a mass enhancement to the spell. Or in the case of say 2 fireballs at once, a twined metamagic spell)

See Rand Nova-ing in Towers of Midnight.


Matt wielding the Ashandrei is frequently described as moving with supernatural speed, he's the only one who was able to keep up with the Gholam even before realizing the foxhead could hurt it (which then caused the gholam to move more cautiously so it is easier). The defending could be done for himself with combat expertise, but he defends far more efficiently with the weapon in hand than completely unarmed, so I'd argue that there is reason to tie defensive to a weapon somehow.

Maybe as a part of one of the templates grant those effects anytime he's wielding any weapon? ie he can as an ex ability treat any weapon he wields as having the speed and defending properties, that way it's clearly coming from him, but has the same mechanical benefit.

True. But that speed is never attributed to the weapon. It is always a function of Mat's skill and luck, which come from him (so feats and templates). He would perform just as well with a quality quarterstaff (at least until the gholam broke it).

True that he is better while defending, but that is a function of the style of weapon and combat, not a unique property of the ashandarei.

I could see the ta'veren granting an ability like that. The trouble with the ta'veren for stating purposes is that it isn't a stable template with consistent bonuses. It is unique to each person that has it.

[PollyOliver]

I think Mat is the easiest, personally. For Rand, you run into the problem of just how ridiculously fast he gets good at casting, without falling behind at his fighting at all until later, due to circumstances beyond his control. I'd almost be tempted to make him a warblade and tack Lews Therin's skills onto him as a gestalt sorcerer with more spells known but a more limited spell list.

If not, he's the one that you'd pretty much have to slap a template on, because he needs to be a freakishly good swordsman and archer with a sky-high caster level. He's also a spontaneous caster who either can use quicken or has a ton of extra actions, because he can cast a ton of spells at once, and never run out until he keels over from fatigue. Frankly, his ability to channel so many different ways at once puts me in mind of the beholder mage. But if you're avoiding that type of absurdity, I'd say warblade/modified warmage or sorcerer/Jade Phoenix mage. In his case, ToB is even more of a must than in Mat's, because of the sword forms.

The other option, which is the best fit mechanically in my opinion, is to reflavor the power as divine (it does turn the wheel of time, after all), and go with Ruby Knight Vindicator. Find him a divine class that gets elemental damage spells, get him the travel domain, give him some limited healing, and set him loose with some feats to up his caster level. Extra actions could model his casting, assuming a ton of turn attempts, which we would fluff as the ability to scare the crap out of shadowspawn.

He gets a couple luck feats, though fewer than Mat's, and something to boost his caster level, either feat or template. I'd model sa'angreal as metamagic rods that do some hybrid of heighten and empower/maximize. For flaws, claustrophobic, chivalrous courtesty, or arcane fatigue.

Perrin is complicated too, though less so, because how the heck do you model the world of dreams stuff? You'd have to call Tel'aran'riod a separate plane and give him some plane shift abilities as SLAs when he's sleeping. Maybe wild shape ranger, with wild shape limited to wolf and usable only in TAR, or crusader with white raven and a big-*** hammer with a werewolf template that only activates in TAR? White raven hammer or the mountain hammer line can help him do damage, while the rest of white raven can model his status as a leader. Leadership, if he has space.

[Alleran]

Rand is some kind of epic, or near epic, level caster with the spell recharge mechanic or something. Rand can do the equivalent of casting a dozen or so spells at once, I'm not sure how you could model that at all.
He's either an Epic-level Beholder Mage-esque class (10 spells/weaves per round, free action to cast each), or an Epic-level sorcerer with Automatic Quicken Spell and a boatload of Multispell epic feats. On top of that, he's gestalted with a full BAB class.

The WoTCS built him as a 19th level character around the end of book 6. He should have been low-epic at or before book 9, and he's high-epic by book 13 (the "Creator's Champion" template probably didn't hurt either).


Perrin is complicated too, though less so, because how the heck do you model the world of dreams stuff? You'd have to call Tel'aran'riod a separate plane and give him some plane shift abilities as SLAs when he's sleeping.
The Lucid Dreaming skill added to either the World of Dreams or the Spirit World. Done.

He wouldn't have plane shift, because he's not actually in Tel'aran'rhiod when he's sleeping. His mind is, though. You need to use the One Power in order to go there in the flesh (e.g. what Rand did at the end of book 5).

[PollyOliver]

The Lucid Dreaming skill added to either the World of Dreams or the Spirit World. Done.

He wouldn't have plane shift, because he's not actually in Tel'aran'rhiod when he's sleeping. His mind is, though. You need to use the One Power in order to go there in the flesh (e.g. what Rand did at the end of book 5).

Oh, cool, I've never seen that before.

Rules-wise, could he make a check to change himself into a wolf in the dream? Or would he need another mechanical basis (template, class feature) for the change?

[Alleran]

Oh, cool, I've never seen that before.

Rules-wise, could he make a check to change himself into a wolf in the dream? Or would he need another mechanical basis (template, class feature) for the change?
I'd just fluff it as the "change your personal appearance" aspect of the skill. He's not actually taking on wolf form (he keeps his scent, vision and so on from his human form), but he looks like a wolf, and since he already has a number of wolf-like abilities, there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of difference (such as it is).

[Coidzor]

Yeah, technically it probably should. It's just that given that rationale, almost every player character's first level should be in an NPC class, assuming they weren't raised by wolves or a swordmaster in hiding.

In my head I justify it this way, though it's admittedly a little silly: just as a monster with 1 RHD loses the RHD with a class level, adventurers with 1 level of an NPC class lose that class level when they gain a PC class level. It also helps out when we lose a PC and the player wants to take over an NPC we've been hanging out with.

Or how PCs who grow up on farms aren't saddled with a level of commoner, because it's irrelevant and needlessly nitpicky to even bother going to pre-career and childhood levels.

[Urpriest]

This is how I'd put it:
Ashandrei
1d8 slashing/1d6 bludgeoning 19-20x2
Special: May be used either as a double weapon, attacking with each side, or as a reach weapon using the slashing end. Both ends must be enchanted separately.


I don't think the Ashandrei is a double weapon. Look at Complete Warrior's Spinning Halberd Style. The Halberd is not a double weapon, and yet someone using Spinning Halberd Style uses the butt of the Halberd in almost the exact same way (fluffwise at least) that Matt uses the butt of the Ashandrei. Using it that way is a trick with the weapon, not its default behavior. Just let him use that feat with it.

[Daftendirekt]

I don't think the Ashandrei is a double weapon. Look at Complete Warrior's Spinning Halberd Style. The Halberd is not a double weapon, and yet someone using Spinning Halberd Style uses the butt of the Halberd in almost the exact same way (fluffwise at least) that Matt uses the butt of the Ashandrei. Using it that way is a trick with the weapon, not its default behavior. Just let him use that feat with it.

Well, according to the WoT RPG book, which Robert Jordan endorsed, it IS, because those are the stats from the book.

[Urpriest]

Well, according to the WoT RPG book, which Robert Jordan endorsed, it IS, because those are the stats from the book.

Yes, but as you said they sometimes get these stats wrong. In this case, a fighting style like that is represented by a feat. That's the system's precedent, which I doubt the autors of the WoT RPG book or Robert Jordan were aware of.

[Jothki]

I'm assuming it would just be around Mat. Which means he couldn't have any other magic items. I know, in the WoT universe he didn't have any other "magic" items. But in a 3.5 DND game, he would. And AMF on the amulet would suppress all of them, making them useless...

It probably would, yes.

There's no reason why he'd need to actually be optimized as a PC. He probably has at least two custom templates on him that would significantly boost his LA.

[PollyOliver]

Yes, but as you said they sometimes get these stats wrong. In this case, a fighting style like that is represented by a feat. That's the system's precedent, which I doubt the autors of the WoT RPG book or Robert Jordan were aware of.

The reason I consider it to be two-weapon fighting is that Matt fights with it the same way he fought with his quarterstaff, except one end is now slashing. And he very clearly used two-weapon fighting with his quarterstaff, because in his fights with it he whirls it around and uses both ends to hit people. Since he goes from that to his Ashandarei without a hitch, and descriptions of his fighting style stay the same except that now he's walloping people with one end and slashing them with the other, I think it makes sense to say he's still two-weapon fighting (especially in light of what the setting says).

[Jarian]

At the risk of repeating myself, the spear style feats from Dragon Compendium let a spear user:


Attack with the butt of a spear.
Use a spear at closer range than normal.
Use a spear at longer range than normal.
Gain exceptional defensive abilities when taking the total defense action.
Other awesome and very Mat-like abilities.


To that end, I once again state that the ashandarei is a martial longspear that does either slashing or piercing damage, and Mat has some of the Dragon Compendium feats.

[Coidzor]

Seems simpler that, since it's a named, specialty weapon anyway, to just give him a weapon that he can TWF with as a matter of course, since, you know, he probably has better things to do with his feats for purposes of modeling him than using them to purchase things like spinning halberd.

So you'll have to explain what these awesome and very Mat-like abilities are, rather than that it's just as an alternative to him TWF with it. Does he ever use it as a reach weapon in the books, for that matter?

[Jarian]

The ashandarei is not inherently a double weapon, any more than a spear is. Mat just uses it like that because he's accustomed to a quarterstaff. Could you give it those stats to save him some feats? Sure. Does that accurately represent the weapon, which was, I thought, the point of the thread? Not so much.

I seem to recall Mat making a lunging strike of sorts with the ashandarei to strike someone pretty far away, but it's been awhile since I read one of the books pre-Sanderson, so Long Strike may be out of place. Even so, the others apply.

[PollyOliver]

Which feats are you referring to? The only dragon magazine spear feat I can find that looks relevant is Spear Master, and all that does is let you treat a spear like a double weapon--so you can then TWF with it.

Edit: Except that the Ashanderei is explicitly a double weapon, at least according to the WoT campaign setting. Their rules about some things are different, but double weapon vs. spear is a simple enough thing.

[Jarian]

Regarding the Ashandarei, I'd peg it as a longspear that does either piercing or slashing damage. Mat obviously has some of the Dragon Compendium Spear Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10682609&postcount=21) to let him use it the way he does.

Edit: Whoops, doublepost. Thought that was an edit for some reason...

Referring to the link, which details some of the feats. You can find them in the Dragon Compendium.

Edit: Yes, the campaign setting refers to it as a double weapon, because Mat uses it as a double weapon. I don't recall anything in the books that says its any better suited to being used that way than any other spear.

Again, if you want to give it those stats so Mat can use it the way he does in the books by default, by all means, do so.

[PollyOliver]

Either way, those are some nifty feats, thanks. I'm now envisioning a tripper who pole vaults into position. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

The ashandarei is not inherently a double weapon, any more than a spear is. Mat just uses it like that because he's accustomed to a quarterstaff. Could you give it those stats to save him some feats? Sure. Does that accurately represent the weapon, which was, I thought, the point of the thread? Not so much.

In your opinion. I see it as representing the weapon in so far as he uses it perfectly, since we don't ever run into anyone else ever using one, the point's pretty moot for the purpose of modeling him, and I find making an actual weapon rather than shoehorning in a longspear to be more elegant.

[Feytalist]

As a previous poster has mentioned, there actually is a WoT D20 RPG, with stats for Mat, his medallion, and his ashandarei.

Oh, speaking of which, the ashandarei is actually one of the very very few "magical" (read: power-forged) items in the RPG. In fact, I think the crystal sword sa-angreal, whatever its name is, is the only other one.

The rest are all "masterforged" items with different levels of craftsmanship, essentially a +1/+2/+3 to attack.

Try to grab the RPG somewhere, it has an interesting mechanic for powers. Just remember, the WoT world is a very low-magic world, with next-to-none magic items and very very few magic users.

[RaginChangeling]

As a previous poster has mentioned, there actually is a WoT D20 RPG, with stats for Mat, his medallion, and his ashandarei.

Oh, speaking of which, the ashandarei is actually one of the very very few "magical" (read: power-forged) items in the RPG. In fact, I think the crystal sword sa-angreal, whatever its name is, is the only other one.

The rest are all "masterforged" items with different levels of craftsmanship, essentially a +1/+2/+3 to attack.

Try to grab the RPG somewhere, it has an interesting mechanic for powers. Just remember, the WoT world is a very low-magic world, with next-to-none magic items and very very few magic users.

Eh, it has a ton of magical items to be fair. They're just all in various hordes or vaults, about the only people to seriously use them are the main characters, the forsaken and Cadsuane who has about as many as a standard D&D adventurer. :smallbiggrin:

[Alleran]

Eh, it has a ton of magical items to be fair. They're just all in various hordes or vaults, about the only people to seriously use them are the main characters, the forsaken and Cadsuane who has about as many as a standard D&D adventurer. :smallbiggrin:
She has a paralis-net, yes. So does Nynaeve, and if Rand really felt like it at this point, he could make more.

[RaginChangeling]

She has a paralis-net, yes. So does Nynaeve, and if Rand really felt like it at this point, he could make more.

She also has an Angreal, a well, two other ter'angreal that detect men channelling and a few other things.

[Alleran]

She also has an Angreal, a well, two other ter'angreal that detect men channelling and a few other things.
Actually, those are all part of the paralis-net. Rand explains it in Tower of Midnight.

[Pechvarry]

I'm very late to this party ( :( ) but I've thought of 3.5ing Mat before.

My solution: bard with Perform (cursing and complaining). The more foul-mooded he is, the more his troops want to stick with him.

From there, Improvisation (his arcane gestures are more swearing and obscene hand gestures) from Spell Compendium works well enough for his luck.

[Urpriest]

The ashandarei is not inherently a double weapon, any more than a spear is. Mat just uses it like that because he's accustomed to a quarterstaff. Could you give it those stats to save him some feats? Sure. Does that accurately represent the weapon, which was, I thought, the point of the thread? Not so much.

I seem to recall Mat making a lunging strike of sorts with the ashandarei to strike someone pretty far away, but it's been awhile since I read one of the books pre-Sanderson, so Long Strike may be out of place. Even so, the others apply.

As for saving him some feats, given that his ashandrei skills at least partly come from military memories he should probably have some sort of Revenant Blade-like source of flexible feats. It shouldn't be from levels either. Some people have suggested a template, but given that it was granted as a one-off thing by the setting's equivalent of the Fair Folk I'd prefer making it a custom Bestow Curse effect.

[MammonAzrael]

As for saving him some feats, given that his ashandrei skills at least partly come from military memories he should probably have some sort of Revenant Blade-like source of flexible feats. It shouldn't be from levels either. Some people have suggested a template, but given that it was granted as a one-off thing by the setting's equivalent of the Fair Folk I'd prefer making it a custom Bestow Curse effect.

Interesting idea. But I'm pretty sure the trade off for the memories was the whole hanging from a tree part of the deal, and memories just being a unique way of fulfilling their part of the bargain, not an actual curse. Plus...what negatives would you grant it?


I have to admit, right now I really want to read through the series again, taking notes and stating out Mat, and maybe Perrin, as they go through their journey. I don't want to do Rand as the casting systems are just so different.

Doing things from memory...

I'd say he solidly starts off as a rogue, and remains one for all of book one. He also gains a cursed item that starts to eat away at his wisdom. He starts off the gain with a ta'veren template, which doesn't do much initially, but grows in power over the course of the books (with his HD?). I'm not sure if his knowledge of the old tongue here, as well as somehow connecting with Manetheren, should be a function of the template, or a feat, or what.
In book two, he remains a rogue, keeps losing Wisdom (and maybe some level drain?), and links himself to an artifact. Maybe a level of a more martial class (fighter? Marshal? ToB?)
In book three he remains fairly inactive until the break enchantment happens, freeing him from the dagger and restoring most/all of the wisdom drain...but still leaving his memory like swiss cheese (though he does have some curious memories of the battle of the Tarendrelle River, indicating that his connection to the past, or at least King Aemon, predates the Eelfinn). This breaking of the curse is where his luck first seems to kick into high gear. We see a demonstration of his remarkable skill as a fighter here, but it's clear this isn't where he gained that ability. He does some gathering of information and infiltration, and again performs well in battle. Also survives a home made bomb. :smalltongue:
In book four, we have him being firmly still a rogue, until his fateful encounter with the sandstone doorways. At this point he gains another template, which grants him significant bonuses to several skills, combat abilities, knowledge of the old tongue, and perhaps a bardic lore ability for the given time period only. Additionally he gains his ter'angreal and ashandarei, shows off his remarkable skill with throwing daggers as well as his natural luck. No real martial advancement I'd say.
In book five, we see him first get involved in a battle in a serious way, giving us a solid place to start with a more martial class, perhaps marshal or warblade. He has gained the leadership feat without realizing it. :smallamused: He also solos a boss NPC, one with a CR even the Aiel considered strong. Oh, and he dies and then doesn't, because balefire is awesome like that.
Book six I'm only having vague memories of Mat, but I think most of the time is spent adjusting to his status as Marshal-General of the Band.
Book seven seems to send us back into rogue territory, though with a much more political bent, lots of movement in "high society." And plenty of time entertaining the queen. We also meet the gholam here.
Book eight sees him getting better from having a wall dropped on him.
Book nine sees him escaping Ebou Dar...not really a lot of level advancement I'd say. Though maybe a level through RPing and plot advancement. Pretty roguish.
Book ten is spent fleeing Altara and courting his wife. Near the end he engages in a remarkable military campaign, gaining a command-focused class. Also gains an official noble title (and a powerful one at that).
Book eleven is nearly as empty as book eight, with Mat making his way to Caemlyn.
Book twelve has him off on a dungeon crawl with Thom and Noal. There he does very well for himself, and a clear place for a very martial focus. oh, and he also makes a huge shift in military power with the deals for making dragons, and finally takes out the gholam.


So I'm seeing lots of rogue and commander class, with some straight martial class thrown in.

[Urpriest]

Interesting idea. But I'm pretty sure the trade off for the memories was the whole hanging from a tree part of the deal, and memories just being a unique way of fulfilling their part of the bargain, not an actual curse. Plus...what negatives would you grant it?


I have to admit, right now I really want to read through the series again, taking notes and stating out Mat, and maybe Perrin, as they go through their journey. I don't want to do Rand as the casting systems are just so different.

Hmm...while Bestow Curse is a typical fey thing to do, you're right that the memories part itself isn't negative enough to be justifiably a curse. Perhaps an epic generalization of Modify Memory (or even Psychic Chirurgery) would make more sense. In any case I definitely think it should be the result of some permanent and hard to reverse one-off effect.

[Seerow]

Matt suspects the negative part of the memories is that it gives them the ability to see through him and take his own memories to add to their stockpile. I don't remember if this ever got proved as right or wrong, but having a potentially hostile magic race able to magically scry on you, as well as the ability to steal all of your memories upon your death (possibly involving removal from the wheel?), seems like enough of a downside to call it a curse.

[MammonAzrael]

Gah. Don't miss my long-winded edit in the above post! :smallsmile:


Hmm...while Bestow Curse is a typical fey thing to do, you're right that the memories part itself isn't negative enough to be justifiably a curse. Perhaps an epic generalization of Modify Memory (or even Psychic Chirurgery) would make more sense. In any case I definitely think it should be the result of some permanent and hard to reverse one-off effect.

I could see something like this. The thing is, the memories that he gains also clearly affect more than just dry knowledge. He remembers dozens, perhaps hundreds, of skilled and talented military commanders, gaining, essentially, their experience. I guess I could see an epic form of psychic chirurgery, but that feels like a little light for the sheet amount of bonuses he gains.


Matt suspects the negative part of the memories is that it gives them the ability to see through him and take his own memories to add to their stockpile. I don't remember if this ever got proved as right or wrong, but having a potentially hostile magic race able to magically scry on you, as well as the ability to steal all of your memories upon your death (possibly involving removal from the wheel?), seems like enough of a downside to call it a curse.

True, but that is never confirmed, and we only have Mat's suspicion that the Eelfinn are watching him. No confirmation (and I'll be surprised if we ever get any, as it seems that that plot has run it's course).