CN paladin?

[MarkusWolfe]

One of my friends wants to play a paladin of Banjo (yes, THAT Banjo) in the fall. Has a Chaotic Neutral paladin ever been designed for 3.5?

[Sacrieur]

Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) can knock him back to CG. This is a good start. Now all we have to do is knock him down into CN. Shouldn't be too hard.

Here, I'll even do it for you:

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Paladin of True Freedom

{table=head]Level|Special
1|Aura of chaos, detect lawful, smite lawful 1/day
2|Divine grace, lay on hands
3|Aura of resolve, divine health
4|Turn lawful 1/day
5|Smite lawful 2/day, special mount
6|Mind blank 1/week
7|
8|
9|Mind blank 2/week
10|Smite lawful 3/day
11|
12|Mind blank 3/week
13|
14|
15|Mind blank 4/week, smite lawful 4/day
16|
17|
18|Mind blank 5/week
19|
20|Smite lawful 5/day[/table]

Class Skills
Replace Diplomacy with Bluff on the class skill list.

Aura of Chaos (Ex)
The power of a paladin of true freedom's aura of chaos (see the detect chaos spell) is equal to her paladin of slaughter level.

Aura of Resolve (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin of true freedom is immune to compulsion effects. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects. This ability otherwise functions identically to the paladin's aura of courage class feature.

Detect Lawful (Su)
At will, a paladin of slaughter can use detect lawful, as the spell.

Mind Blank (Sp)
Starting at 6th level, a paladin of true freedom may use mind blank at will, as the spell.

Smite Lawful (Su)
Once per day, a paladin of tyranny may attempt to smite lawful with one normal melee attack. This ability is otherwise identical to the standard paladin's ability to smite evil, including increased daily uses as the paladin of true freedom gains class levels.

Turn Lawful (Su)
A paladin of true freedom may turn any creature with the lawful subtype just as a paladin would with undead. In addition, he may turn any creature that is lawfully aligned.

Spellcasting
Remove the following spells from the paladin's spell list: death ward, discern lies, dispel chaos, magic circle against chaos, protection from chaos.

Add the following spells to the paladin's spell list: 1st—protection from law; 3rd—magic circle against law; 4th—dispel law, freedom of movement.

Code of Conduct
A paladin of true freedom must be of chaotic neutral alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an act in the name of law. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

Associates
While he may adventure with characters of any good, neutral, or evil alignment, a paladin of true freedom will never knowingly associate with lawful characters (except on some sort of undercover mission), nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A paladin of freedom may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are chaotic neutral.

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Yes, I actually kinda made the paladin a tad more powerful (he's tier 4 anyway). Mind blank was kind of nice, because cure disease is sorta useless, and because he's all about freedom (and mind blank protects personal freedom). His code of conduct got a tad softer and easier to follow. His turning ability also got a tad more useful (can use against lawfully aligned people =D).

All in all I think it is good. Still tier 4, but meh =P

[Fax Celestis]

My paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181496) can be any alignment.

[Sacrieur]

My paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181496) can be any alignment.

While fine then :<

(I'm just grumpy cause I put work into making the above paladin and Fax comes along and steals the show with his nice tier 3 paladin that you should use. And if you don't, you're an idiot.)

[Sarco_Phage]

I think this quote should be relevant.


There is none of that, "Oh well if you're truly sorry, there's nothing I can do." horse****. No, he coup de graces your ass because he's a goddamn paladin. His job is killing evil. You know what his job doesn't entail? Being a sympathetic ear for every whiny NE or CN or LE douchebag who's only being evil because the world is unfair to him or every punk that lets his own dislikes or laziness overcome his own personality. You know what unfair is? Being able to know what kind of person everyone is before you even talk to them. Smelling evil so potent on a mother****er that you want to sink your fingers in his chest and pull that tar out until the screaming stops. Having the psychotic urge to murder people that you've never even met, for the sole reason that your God decided that you ought to be his right hand without your choice in the matter, that's unfair. But unlike Evil McBlacknails over there, that Paladin puts on his helmet, sharpens his sword, and then continues walking through crowds of people day by day, resisting the urge. Seeing evidence of injustice so black it makes him sick. Seeing murderers and rapists walk the street, watching good men hang as evil ones pull the lever. Saving his righteous violence for when the situation exactly, specifically, precisely calls for it. Surgically removing that which is most evil. Because he's a Paladin. And if he gave in to the urge, what would he be? Who will right the true wrongs if not he? It's not about not falling as a Paladin. It's about falling so ****ing hard you crash through the planet and stand up on the other side.'

This is the Kamen Rider mode of Paladin.

Remember, it's not just a mechanical thing - "Paladin" isn't just a class, it's a state of mind and a way of life. A wizard, a cleric, and even a Bard can be a Paladin.

How would a CN Paladin behave? Would CN allow for adherence to a code?

Like Sacrieur notes, however, Paladin of Freedom is a good place to start.

[Rainbownaga]

Additionally you can make an alignment neutral paladin by removing the alignment requirement on smite and using the old d&d version of detect evil (creatures that want to harm the caster).

[Blynkibrax]

There's a chaotic neutral paladin-type class called an anarch in Dragon Magazine, issue 310.

[Sacrieur]

There's a chaotic neutral paladin-type class called an anarch in Dragon Magazine, issue 310.

And replace cure disease with mind blank.

[Darth Stabber]

A "Code of Conduct" on an exemplar of chaos is horribly oxymoronic. Chaotics are unbound by the trifles the lawful types are. You are an exemplar of true freedom, act how your going to act. By meerly accepting the proposed Code Of Conduct you are committing a lawful act. If a CN paladin were to have a code of conduct written down it would consist of random words in no order what so ever.

The following is an excerpt from a paladin of chaos's real Code of Conduct

Duck capillary mortify fortuitousness radish markup candy vorpal monkey cab driver cooties tramp rode.

[Sarco_Phage]

That mentality is why I never let any of my players play CN. They seem to think it means "Deadpool".

[Mutazoia]

That mentality is why I never let any of my players play CN. They seem to think it means "Deadpool".

Chaotic Neutral: Not doing a damned thing that's not in your own best interest, with wild abandon.

Any Deity can have a Paladin, not just the Lawful Stupid ones. Find a Chaotic Neutral Deity in one of the bazillion source books, see what ideals they are the patron of and that's basically what your CN Paladin will strive to exemplify.

[hamishspence]

Chaotic Neutral: Not doing a damned thing that's not in your own best interest, with wild abandon.

Neutral characters of any stripe can do things that aren't in their own best interest- but usually it's for some self-based reason. Risking oneself for a loved one- or risking oneself in order to gain popularity.

[Eldan]

Of course you can have a code of conduct as a CN character. It's just one that you made for yourself, instead of one some church official or knight invented five centuries ago.

I resent this anti-chaotic alignmentism that's going on on these boards. We chaotic people don't lack principles. They are just our own, instead of someone else's. :smallannoyed:

[hamishspence]

Yup:

The easydamus site:

http://easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html

has a list of typical commandments a CN deity might have- and a list of typical acts a CN deity might disapprove of.

[Eldan]

Hmm. I don't quite like that article's idea that CN character's can't be dedicated anarchists, but it's better than most.

And I do think that CN characters can be reliable, in a fashion. They forge personal friendships, instead of institutional ones (I.e. John's my friend, instead of John's in my tribe), but I don't think they would just break their word on a whim, if they are smart.

[hamishspence]

A possible counter would be the "motivated by good, but isn't quite good enough to qualify as Good-aligned" character.

In Heroes of Horror it's called "flexible Neutral".

The same might apply to Evil characters who are significantly more compassionate than the site would suggest for Evil alignments- they may reserve extreme cruelty for "the guilty"- which is enough to keep them Evil despite their Good aspects.

[Eldan]

Probably something like that, yeah.
In order to achieve Freedom for All, you'll have to hurt individual freedoms a bit.

[Darth Stabber]

The code of conduct. I posted was a joke. But in all honesty the concept of cn codce of condcuct is a joke. The very heart of being chaotic is about freedom and non-restriction. A code of conduct is by it's very nature a restriction. There for following one is a lawful act.

[hamishspence]

For a Chaotic Good character, their "code of conduct" might simply be "Do not commit evil acts".

For a Chaotic Neutral character, they might have a "Chaotic moral code" where certain Lawful acts, are considered "sinful"- and thus, their "moral code of conduct" forbids them from committing such acts.

So- having some kind of code, and following it, is not incompatible with being Chaotic.

And, for "servants of a Chaotic deity"- the deity might have objections to certain acts, that aren't specifically Lawful- but are opposed to the deity's portfolio.

So, they'd have a "code of conduct" for their Chaotic followers, that forbids such acts.

[Figgin of Chaos]

As one with a lifelong obsession with chaos, rebellion, and freedom, I've often speculated on this sort of thing.

While I agree that swearing to a code is a lawful act, I also believe that freedom includes the freedom to lose that freedom. While being Lawful means playing by the rules, being Chaotic doesn't necessarily mean breaking them; if it did, it would be just as restricting as Law.


Edit: But on a different note, wouldn't a Paladin of Banjo be Chaotic Good? I mean, Elan's CG, so I'd think his diety would be as well.

[Eldan]

I just think that chaotic neutral people can still be basically decent. As such, they can tell themselves "I will never do X". Which is a basic moral code. Note that it does not start with "Thou shalt not", as it is a personal, self-imposed code.

I will never rape. I will never steal from those poorer than me. I will never enslave. I will never control minds by magic.

And so on. I see no problem with this.