How much gold can a VoP have?

[Major]

If a character takes vow of poverty he can't own magic items and has to give the majority of his money away. However, is there a limit to the amount of GP the character can have?

[tyckspoon]

Yes, the limit is None. Vow of Poverty allows: simple weapons, 1 set of simple clothing, 1 days worth of food, a spell component pouch, and a bag with which to hold your food and pile of quarterstaffs. Anything else must be donated at first convenience and cannot be used on your own behalf.

[TheCoelacanth]

How ever much you're currently carrying to where you're going to donate it.

[NNescio]

If a character takes vow of poverty he can't own magic items and has to give the majority of his money away. However, is there a limit to the amount of GP the character can have?

Zero gp. He cannot own any spare currency at all. A VoP character can still carry wealth intended for someone else though (read: donations to charity), and there's no limit in this case, but he needs to give up the money at first opportunity.

[Runestar]

In other words, you can still carry as much money as you can find, you just cannot spend any of it on yourself or for the benefit of your party. :smallsmile:

[Otherworld Odd]

Further question: So you have to hunt for your daily food since you can only carry one day's worth and not allowed to carry money?

[Douglas]

Just get to level 5, then you don't need to eat any more.

[Otherworld Odd]

Just get to level 5, then you don't need to eat any more.

Touche. >.>

[Grendus]

You are also allowed to benefit from your party's items, so if someone else carries extra rations they can give you one when you're hungry. Food shouldn't really be a huge issue.

Biggest issue with VoP imo is that by RAW a divine spellcaster can't have a holy symbol. It's a great conceptual feat, but it's a trap for the powergamer. The point of VoP is not to make your character more powerful, it's there so you can play a character who has dedicated his life to fighting evil and doesn't care about material things. It's a roleplaying feat, not so much tactical.

[Eloel]

Biggest issue with VoP imo is that by RAW a divine spellcaster can't have a holy symbol.

By RAW, Holly&Mistletoe can be a holy symbol, and is cheap enough for a VoP character to have, iirc.

Spellbooks, on the other hand :yuk:

[The Glyphstone]

Edetic Spellcaster feat from Dragon magazine is the only way to make that work, really.

[Yora]

Also, the real world ascetic tradition the Feat seems to try to mimic does allow prayer beads as part of the monks posessions. I'd say a simple holy symbol is basically the same.

[Callista]

Further question: So you have to hunt for your daily food since you can only carry one day's worth and not allowed to carry money?Yes. Most VoP characters will occasionally go without food before they reach level 5 and no longer need to eat; however, the penalties accumulate slowly enough that unless your character is in the middle of a famine, he will be able to beg for, gather, or hunt some food before the penalties become truly problematic.

As a DM, I would probably allow a VoP to carry things on the way to donate them; there's something just a little odd about turning one's party into pack mules. :)

The point of Vow of Poverty is that this character has determined that he will give away everything he doesn't absolutely need, right now--a pair of shoes, a robe, and his next meal, usually. Everything other than that goes to people who need it. VoP characters are often religious and their reasoning will be a lot like, "My deity will provide for me; and if s/he doesn't, then s/he must have a reason." The less religious ones may be people who simply can't stand the idea of anybody being cold, hungry, or poor, and has realized that it is much easier to go without food themselves than to see anybody else go hungry.

Mechanical effects of starvation:
After three days, you make a fortitude save. You'll have good saves if you're playing VoP, and you're starting at DC 10 with an increase of one per day. If you fail the save, you take 1d6 nonlethal damage which can't be recovered until you get food. The worst that can happen to you under these conditions is that you fall into a coma due to the nonlethal damage. You also gain the Fatigued state (-2 to STR and DEX, cannot run or charge, becomes Exhausted when you would normally become Fatigued). So this isn't deadly, and only becomes a real problem after quite a while--your VoP character is in danger of becoming weak from hunger, but it is quite unlikely that he will actually die of starvation.

Holy symbols need not be valuable possessions. They can be drawn or tattooed onto the body or clothing of the character.

[Flickerdart]

Or you can draw the holy symbol in the mud when you need to cast a spell, and pretend you're an Alchemist. :smallwink:

[MarkusWolfe]

Biggest issue with VoP imo is that by RAW a divine spellcaster can't have a holy symbol.

Tattoo the holy symbol onto the palms of your hands. And your forehead. And your knees. And your chest. And your back. And your shoulders. And your biceps. And your forearms. And your buttocks.

Gestalt a cleric/monk, and wear nothing but a loincloth.

[MeeposFire]

Worldly focus feat also lets you not need a holy symbol (faiths of eberron).

[TroubleBrewing]

Tattoo the holy symbol onto the palms of your hands. And your forehead. And your knees. And your chest. And your back. And your shoulders. And your biceps. And your forearms. And your buttocks.

Gestalt a cleric/monk, and wear nothing but a loincloth.

I fail to see why this build requires monk at all.

[person29]

I fail to see why this build requires monk at all.

because everything is better gestalt and monks kick ass with VoP...?

[OracleofWuffing]

I fail to see why that build requires a loincloth at all! :smalltongue:

[MeeposFire]

Monks don't kick butt with VoP they just fit thematically and it does not hurt them as much as it does other classes with a few exceptions (druid).

VoP monks are weak, weaker than standard monks, but they are very thematically appropriate.

[person29]

Monks don't kick butt with VoP they just fit thematically and it does not hurt them as much as it does other classes with a few exceptions (druid).

VoP monks are weak, weaker than standard monks, but they are very thematically appropriate.

meh ive seen success with VoP monks...however i haven't played in high optimization games

[MeeposFire]

I have had success in games playing a fighter but I still know it is not that strong. VoP can be very fun and it covers some of the basic requirements that gear covers but if you get standard WBL VoP falls behind in an objective look at the bonuses.

[person29]

I have had success in games playing a fighter but I still know it is not that strong. VoP can be very fun and it covers some of the basic requirements that gear covers but if you get standard WBL VoP falls behind in an objective look at the bonuses.


very true...i recently played a VoP cleric in what was supposed to be a lower magic/magic item game...turned out to be very high magic item game and fell behind quickly

[MeeposFire]

Ouch. Still unless you lacked the ability to avoid holy symbols you did play a class that stands a chance in that situation. Still that would be tough.

[person29]

Ouch. Still unless you lacked the ability to avoid holy symbols you did play a class that stands a chance in that situation. Still that would be tough.

yeah my DM just ruled that it was silly i couldn't have a simple self-made carving of my deities symbol...so we houseruled that part away

[MarkusWolfe]

I fail to see why this build requires monk at all.

With just cleric, you only get the usual clericy brokenness. Gestalt with monk, and you get good reflex saves, evasion, improved evasion, crazy good movespeed, higher melee damage and all those small miscellaneous bonuses that monks get. Plus, you can use the cloistered cleric variant without having to deal with the downsides.

With cleric, the build is doable. Gestalted with monk, the build is hilarious.

[Flickerdart]

With cleric, the build is doable. Gestalted with monk, the build is hilarious.
Gestalted with Druid, it's even better. Or Factotum. Or Warblade. Any non-awful class will do.

[true_shinken]

Or you can draw the holy symbol in the mud when you need to cast a spell, and pretend you're an Alchemist. :smallwink:

Man, this is so awesome.

[MarkusWolfe]

Gestalted with Druid, it's even better. Or Factotum. Or Warblade. Any non-awful class will do.

Yeah, but all of those are at least double complete overkill. Gestalting with monk leaves is usually only singular complete overkill, maybe one and a half complete overkill. You have to leave some challenge in the game or it's not fun anymore.

[Flickerdart]

If you want the game to be challenging, why are you playing a T1 class in a gestalt?

[Callista]

The level of challenge doesn't have to do with what tier you are playing; it has to do with how much the DM pushes the TPK barrier.

Tiers have more to do with whether all the members of your party are equally flexible. For example, assuming everyone is optimized, if your party members are playing a Druid and a Wizard, then coming in with a Fighter would not make much sense. However, if they were playing a Rogue and a Bard, then a Fighter would work fine.

However, the tier system does make two assumptions: It assumes that the party members are optimized, and that they are not using their resources cooperatively. It does not take into account what happens when the cleric buffs the fighter, when the wizard makes equipment for the paladin, or even really what happens when the barbarian teams up as the rogue's flanking buddy. Depending on your party's level of teamwork and optimization, the tier system may be more or less useful. I have seen a monk and a wizard play together nicely, for example--the monk, optimized well, and the wizard's player concentrating on buffing and protecting others rather than stealing the show.

Playing that Tier 1 class doesn't mean you are setting the game on "easy mode". It only means that the DM can be a lot meaner to you before the party gets squished.

[Flickerdart]

Well, duh. Of course the DM can compensate for your power by sending tougher monsters against you. But if the Wizard can handle a CR+4 monster, and the Monk can only handle a CR-1 monster, then the Wizard is better off than the Monk regardless of the opponent.

You are also mistaken about the assumptions of the Tier system. The system does not assume any optimization, it only weighs options and their power. Optimization is what separates the system from how the actual game is played.

Furthermore, cooperation has no bearing on tier. Sure, a Wizard can make equipment and give out buffs - and if that equipment or buffs plays a decisive role, the Wizard is the one to whom the victory belongs.

Ultimately, you're confusing the overall system balance with individual gaming group balance. Yes, if the party is all Fighters, the DM can send X monsters at them and they won't die. Yes, if the party is all Wizards, the DM can send Y more monsters for the same effect. But thinking "Oh, I'll make Cindy and let the DM compensate for my ability to win the game as a standard action" is not fair to the DM or the other players who can't contribute in a high-stakes game like that without going to similar lengths of optimization or expecting handouts from you, the mighty god-wizard.