Crit-fishing in 4E

[TroubleBrewing]

So far as I know, the largest possible range for a critical hit in 4E is 19-20. The largest number of attacks per round is, so far as I know, 4 (Twin strike + action point).

Is there more material that I'm missing on this? Because, frankly, a crit-fisher build seems... suboptimal in 4E.

[amaranth69]

Fishing for crits is pretty hard in 4ed. If I were to try, I would go with the righteous rage of tempus channel divinity, which gives you an auto crit if you hit and also gives you extra damage as if you hit with the power normally if you actually roll a crit. Then, find items which allow you to recharge your channel divinity. Even without the recharge, being able to count on the crit if you hit is awesome for dailies. :smallwink:

[Epinephrine]

Daggermasters get crits on 18-20. A few other powers can enable crits, I think there's a shaman power that allows your allies to crit on 16-20 for one round.

But no, it's not like 3.5.

[WitchSlayer]

Also, Avenger, lets you roll twice when you attack.

[Mando Knight]

Crit Fishing in 4e is generally done with the Avenger, who almost always rolls twice for his attacks (and if you're an Elf-venger, you can roll up to three times on one attack), a Twin-Strike Ranger (where crits happen just because you're a Ranger), or a Daggermaster Rogue (even larger crit range than the others).

Once you solve the issue of critical range (the developers don't like players spamming crits all over the place, so it's pretty difficult to do), stacking on critical hit effects is easy.

Again, I like the Avenger for crit-fishing: they roll twice for a single decently-sized hit, which could be with an Execution Axe or Fullblade with Power Attack to almost hit a Ranger's DPR even without critical hits. Then you stack on things like easy Radiant damage (it's a Divine class!) for the Radiant Mafia synergy, and suddenly your Avenger starts annihilating stuff.

[MachineWraith]

I actually just got through building a 5th-level Ranger/Avenger hybrid. I just build it from boredom, so I haven't played it to know how viable it actually is, but it looks pretty good on paper.

Oath of Enmity used with Twin Strike means 4 attack rolls per round, and one hit per round gets Hunter's Quarry for a little boost to damage.

However, AC was abysmal until I took leather proficiency, and even with it seems low. HP is only a piddly 45 at level 5, a result of having to split ability score points between strength and wisdom, leaving few points to distribute elsewhere, and of being a hybrid of two striker classes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

25th level barbarian daily power. Stone tempest rage. Gives you a crit range of 18-20.

[Kurald Galain]

Is there more material that I'm missing on this? Because, frankly, a crit-fisher build seems... suboptimal in 4E.
That's mainly because they were overpowered in the rules as first printed, so as a result they were hit heavily with the nerfhammer.

Originally, you could combine the avenger's double roll with the rogue daggermaster's 18-20 crit range, and have some feats and items that give you several free attacks on every crit (of course, you also roll double for those, and if they crit you get more free attacks).

[tcrudisi]

I actually just got through building a 5th-level Ranger/Avenger hybrid.

Oath of Enmity used with Twin Strike means 4 attack rolls per round, and one hit per round gets Hunter's Quarry for a little boost to damage.

It seems like you missed it, so I'll point out that hybrid Avengers only get their Oath on Avenger powers. Also, Rangers only get HQ on Ranger powers.

To the OP: The largest number of attacks that can be made in a single round is so high that I'm not even going to bother trying to count it out. There's a Ranger power that lets you attack everything within your range (which I know for a fact can be pushed up to 45 squares and I'm sure there's an item to do it even further).

[ImperiousLeader]

So far as I know, the largest possible range for a critical hit in 4E is 19-20. The largest number of attacks per round is, so far as I know, 4 (Twin strike + action point).

Is there more material that I'm missing on this? Because, frankly, a crit-fisher build seems... suboptimal in 4E.

Crit-Fishing, to me, is more of an Epic man's game. It's doable at lower levels, but it really comes into its own at Epic.

Sorcerers used to be a lot better at the Crit-fishing game, but they've got some nice options. Wide area spells allow you to target multiple creatures, and there's an epic feat that allows you to swap two attack rolls, and another that allows you to move your bonus critical damage from one monster to another. Got enough targets in your blasts, you can make sure they hurt.

Avengers are the Crit-Fishers of choice. Always rolling twice, a half-elf with Twin-Strike is actually rolling 4 times per at-will, and crits allow follow up strikes. Barbarians and Rangers have also an impressive number of multi-attacks.

[darkdragoon]

The Wilder theme from Dark Sun can get you up to 16-20 but has some catches (Psychic Surge is an implement power.) Its other powers have effects based on criticals.

But generally there are more things that boost the effect of a critical rather than make them easier.

[Daftendirekt]

I saw a build somewhere of an Avenger multiclassed into Rogue to get Daggermaster, who then used Bloodiron daggers to do ridiculous damage on crits.

Too bad daggers are only d4s, though, so everything that wasn't a crit on said avenger would be fairly overwhelming. Rogues can get away with daggers because they also get lots of effects on their attacks and sneak attack more than 1/encounter.

[Belobog]

I saw a build somewhere of an Avenger multiclassed into Rogue to get Daggermaster, who then used Bloodiron daggers to do ridiculous damage on crits.

Too bad daggers are only d4s, though, so everything that wasn't a crit on said avenger would be fairly overwhelming. Rogues can get away with daggers because they also get lots of effects on their attacks and sneak attack more than 1/encounter.

The Daggermaster crit buff also now only works on Rogue Powers, further crippling its use in multi-class or hybrid builds.

[MachineWraith]

It seems like you missed it, so I'll point out that hybrid Avengers only get their Oath on Avenger powers. Also, Rangers only get HQ on Ranger powers.

I'm looking at the power right now.

Oath of Enmity
"When you make a melee attack against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you..."

So no, the Oath of Enmity rerolls work on any melee attack, not just Avenger powers.

Hunter's Quarry
"Once per round, when you hit your quarry with an attack..."

Same here.

Edit: Disregard, you're correct. The power card makes no mention, but the text under the Hybrid Ranger and Avenger entries specifies. Worthless build :-/

[WitchSlayer]

That's why you multiclass.

[Yakk]

The size of your [W] die matters very little past heroic. Static bonuses, done right, overwealm your [W] die (I mean, having a d12 weapon die instead of a d4 is nice -- it is an extra 8 damage on a crit and average of 4 on a hit -- but it does not dominate over other factors).

The classic and still working crit fisher is the half elf avenger twin strike dilettante who focuses on minor action encounter attack powers (and/or interrupts). At level 1, they can make 10 attack rolls in one round, each with a 1/20 chance to crit (action point, two twin strkes and a minor action off-hand attack). Now, over those 10 attacks, you still don't crit 60% of the time, but it is a start.

As you go to paragon, you leverage your accuracy and multi-tap to deliver static bonuses to damage.

(As an aside, daggermaster was errattaed to only apply to rogue powers. As where most, if not all, crit-range boosting paragon paths.).

In paragon, you can pull off crits-on-a-double (which gives you 1/20th naive hit chance additional crits per swing) with an avenger paragon path (that doesn't completely suck otherwise).

At epic, you can crit on a 19-20. You can also take the paragon path that lets you pick encounter/daily powers from any class. Say, the level 27 barbarian "make 4 attacks as a standard action" one.

Throw in feats like "recharge an encounter power when you crit 1/encounter" and "recharge an encounter power when you spend an action point", you can guarantee your 1/turn free attack and hit 10 attacks per round (or 20 attack rolls) against a single target with a 19-20 crit range.

Pick up powers that boost your crit range further -- like the rogue one that gives you a 17-20 crit range for 2 rounds, or the barbarian rage that grants a 18-20 for the entire encounter -- and you can do some serious nova damage on your crits.

Throw in some tap-damage boosting cheese...

The damage output of the above build approaches one-rounding an elite. And it can keep it up for a surprising number of rounds. Then, when it runs out, it falls down to almost one-rounding a normal monster damage output.

[Mando Knight]

The size of your [W] die matters very little past heroic. Static bonuses, done right, overwealm your [W] die (I mean, having a d12 weapon die instead of a d4 is nice -- it is an extra 8 damage on a crit and average of 4 on a hit -- but it does not dominate over other factors).

I'd argue that it can continue to matter up through Epic, depending on the class. A ranger deals a lot of otherwise minor hits, so adding static damage bonuses to each attack ramps its damage output significantly. A Barbarian (as well as several other classes) prefer large [W] dice, since they have multi-[W] powers... d12 vs d8 is +2 damage on average for each [W], meaning that a 2[W] power deals +4 damage, and a 7[W] deals an average of +14 damage. For a single feat, upgrading from a Longsword to a Fullblade nets quite a good deal more damage.

[DragonBaneDM]

I've got a way to use Twin Strike and Oath together, I think.

You build a Half-Elf Ranger, and then take Twin Strike for your Dilettante power. It doesn't get too good until Paragon, where you make it an at-will.

Also, I believe there's something that would allow you to use Wisdom for it? Not entirely sure, but even if there isn't, it's still 4 attack rolls a round.

EDIT: Ninja'd apparently. I didn't spot this tidbit of wisdom inside of Yakk's much larger pool of wisdom.

[MeeposFire]

Yes there is a feat to make it wisdom based (also cha based) for half elves and this combo is the basis of the build Yakk is talking about.

[rayne_dragon]

Sorcerers used to be a lot better at the Crit-fishing game, but they've got some nice options. Wide area spells allow you to target multiple creatures, and there's an epic feat that allows you to swap two attack rolls, and another that allows you to move your bonus critical damage from one monster to another. Got enough targets in your blasts, you can make sure they hurt.


Now that you mention this, it reminds me that my wizard was really good for making a massive number of attacks at once, but that without any way of boosting the critical range it was rare for me to crit even once in an entire session.

[Nu]

The largest number of attacks per round is, so far as I know, 4 (Twin strike + action point).

I would assume you mean at-will, but you mentioned an action point...

Let's just say there are a LOT of powers that can grant you more than two attacks at a time. Also, game elements that let you reroll, grant extra attacks, attack as a minor or outside your turn, etc.

[MeeposFire]

Encounter wise a barbarian can do 6 attacks with one standard action. There are a lot of minor action attacks out there too.

[Blackfang108]

Crit Fishing in 4e is generally done with the Avenger, who almost always rolls twice for his attacks (and if you're an Elf-venger, you can roll up to three times on one attack),

Four.

The elf reroll specifically rerolls both avenger dice, not just one of them.

[Artanis]

It seems like you missed it, so I'll point out that hybrid Avengers only get their Oath on Avenger powers. Also, Rangers only get HQ on Ranger powers.

To the OP: The largest number of attacks that can be made in a single round is so high that I'm not even going to bother trying to count it out. There's a Ranger power that lets you attack everything within your range (which I know for a fact can be pushed up to 45 squares and I'm sure there's an item to do it even further).

I believe the Greatbow's max range is 50

[gurban]

Items that grant rerolls help with crit-fishing. Also, group synergy. There is a bard power, LVL 6(?), called Glimpse The Future. Minor Action, Roll 3d20. Choose the highest result and swap it for any d20 roll in that encounter as a free action.

[Daftendirekt]

Dice of Auspicious Fortune bear mentioning too. Each day, you roll the 3 dice and have their rolls stored for later use. We found a set and divided it between our 3 characters so we all have 1, and have actually had really good luck so far. I think about half of the rolls have been crits (19 is a crit with my sword, so it hasn't just been all 20s)

[trehek]

I didn't see anyone pointing these things out, so I'll do it here:

The Righteous Rage of Tempus does NOT create a critical hit. It only allows to roll critical damage. Note that there is errata on the power and it reads like this:

"Effect: If you hit with the next weapon attack that you make before the end of your next turn and it isn't a critical hit, you roll the extra damage dice that you would roll if you scored a critical hit and deal the result as extra damage. If the attack is a critical hit, its extra damage is maximized."

With errata the power actually deals more damage on a crit than before, but unless you actually roll a crit, this power does not create one. You deal critical damage, but effects that trigger on a crit are not triggered.

Also, the Chosen epic destiny can be built to grant 16-20 crit range for the entire party's at-will powers until end of encounter. For example, a barbarian can be built nicely around this (Heart Strike etc.).

[Yakk]

I'd argue that it can continue to matter up through Epic, depending on the class. A ranger deals a lot of otherwise minor hits, so adding static damage bonuses to each attack ramps its damage output significantly. A Barbarian (as well as several other classes) prefer large [W] dice, since they have multi-[W] powers... d12 vs d8 is +2 damage on average for each [W], meaning that a 2[W] power deals +4 damage, and a 7[W] deals an average of +14 damage. For a single feat, upgrading from a Longsword to a Fullblade nets quite a good deal more damage.
The best you can expect to do on a non-daily is what, 5[W]?

Going from a one-handed martial to a two-handed superior generates 10 extra damage. You hit 2/3 of the time. So that's about 7 damage per round. At level 30. Which is about as important as a single point of damage at level 1 if you are keeping up with the damage curve.

I'm not saying a bigger [W] die or more [W] is worthless -- I'm saying that it is over valued, because 4e doesn't let you deal your damage at high levels at a sufficiently high rate via large [W] and large numbers of [W]s.

The closest you can get to that is bugbears swinging execution axes (9 per [W]) doing a rage strike of 9[W]. That's 81 damage.

81 damage sounds big, doesn't it?

An average level 30 monster has about 264 HP. So you did 31% of a standard monster's HP with your ridiculously huge [W] daily attack.

This is similar to doing 10 damage at level 1 with a 3[W] daily attack.

You can see how this really doesn't matter much.

[Mando Knight]

Oh, I realize it's not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but what I'm saying is that boosting your damage dice is a good deal for one feat. It's at least as good as Weapon Focus, and more so if you use single-hit, multi-die powers rather than multi-hit, fewer-dice powers, as the damage boost from the larger dice will continue as you stack on more dice, but Weapon Focus won't. Weapon Focus is better than a bigger weapon when you deal hits that have fewer [W] per hit, with the inflection point varying based on things like the die difference and the average number of [W] dice in your damage rolls.

Other static modifiers like item bonuses (Iron Armbands of Power, Staff of Ruin, etc), or any of the ways of adding an additional stat modifier to the static damage are better, but if you're already using those, I'd go with a larger weapon if I'm a Barbarian or Avenger instead of a Ranger.

[Barstro]

The Daggermaster crit buff also now only works on Rogue Powers, further crippling its use in multi-class or hybrid builds.

So Rogue/Ranger - Daggermaster using Blade Cascade will no longer give up to Five attacks with 18-20 crit?

[Belobog]

So Rogue/Ranger - Daggermaster using Blade Cascade will no longer give up to Five attacks with 18-20 crit?

That is correct.

[Jack_Banzai]

It seems like you missed it, so I'll point out that hybrid Avengers only get their Oath on Avenger powers. Also, Rangers only get HQ on Ranger powers.

To the OP: The largest number of attacks that can be made in a single round is so high that I'm not even going to bother trying to count it out. There's a Ranger power that lets you attack everything within your range (which I know for a fact can be pushed up to 45 squares and I'm sure there's an item to do it even further).

I think that Ranger power you are talking about got errata'd to an immediate action instead of an oppy, so you only get one per round.

[tcrudisi]

I think that Ranger power you are talking about got errata'd to an immediate action instead of an oppy, so you only get one per round.

No, you are talking about the level 5 stance that got errata'ed ... pretty much immediately.

I'm talking about the Ranger encounter power that's level 27 that let's you make a single attack against everything in your range as a standard action. It's called Hail of Arrows.

[Jack_Banzai]

No, you are talking about the level 5 stance that got errata'ed ... pretty much immediately.

I'm talking about the Ranger encounter power that's level 27 that let's you make a single attack against everything in your range as a standard action. It's called Hail of Arrows.

Ah, that one.

[Mando Knight]

Effective Close Burst 50 (Greatbow long range... like anyone would get Far Shot when they have a 25 square close range), all enemies in burst? Yes, please.

[tcrudisi]

Effective Close Burst 50 (Greatbow long range... like anyone would get Far Shot when they have a 25 square close range), all enemies in burst? Yes, please.

Of course you would take Far Shot. Jeez, we want to make as many attacks as possible! Distance Weapon is necessary too. That puts us up to 65 squares. I'm sure there's a way to increase that.

Anyway, since it's 65 square radius, that makes it 130 square diameter. So you've got a 130x130 cube. That's ... 16,899 squares. Of course we also have to assume there's a bad guy in every square. In fact, on the ground? There's an enemy prone in every square too (since they can share a square when one is prone and the other is standing). That's an additional 130. Of course, we can't forget about large creatures! They can share a square with small creatures ... so that will take up the other squares. That's 129*130/4 = 4192. Bringing our total up to: 21,221 attack rolls.

Assuming a crit range of 19-20, you will crit, on average, 2,122 times. Not bad.

While you roll that, I'm gonna go get some pizza. I'm assuming the rest of the party will join me. Except for the DM. He has to sit through all those rolls since he is the one that included 21,221 monsters. He deserves it.

/edit - You could also use a Shortbow instead. You won't get nearly as many attack rolls (it'll be low thousands instead), but you do get to reroll ALL of them with Elven Accuracy, Ancestral Battle Accuracy, and Martial Accuracy. So you get 2x chances on all of them to crit and your chances of missing a single target are very, very small (1/400).

[Surrealistik]

And this is why digital rollers are awesome, particularly ones that can instantly summarize how many target numbers were met; analog is so twentieth century.

[tcrudisi]

And this is why digital rollers are awesome, particularly ones that can instantly summarize how many target numbers were met; analog is so twentieth century.

Bahhumbug. That takes the fun of out D&D. It's all about sitting around a table with friends and rolling dice.

Besides, Hail of Arrows with 20,000+ targets is a great excuse to go buy more dice. :smalltongue: If you don't get to roll them all at once, you aren't doing it right.

[Surrealistik]

Bahhumbug. That takes the fun of out D&D. It's all about sitting around a table with friends and rolling dice.

Besides, Hail of Arrows with 20,000+ targets is a great excuse to go buy more dice. :smalltongue: If you don't get to roll them all at once, you aren't doing it right.

Personally, I'm fairly certain that having a digital roller take care of the crunch instead of watching others eat pizza as you fling plastic and make countless notations puts the fun back _in_ :P

There is also the fact that your host might also not appreciate you dumping a literal tub of dice on his table.

[tcrudisi]

Personally, I'm fairly certain that having a digital roller take care of the crunch instead of watching others eat pizza as you fling plastic and make countless notations puts the fun back _in_ :P

There is also the fact that your host might also not appreciate you dumping a literal, tub of dice on his table.

Hahaha. I'm not so sure. If I were the host, I would be as giddy as a schoolgirl if I got to see someone legitimately rolling 21,221 dice (to hit). Of course, I'd demand a re-roll (for all of them) if even one was cocked or fell off the table.

But hey - it gives me more time to eat pizza. :smallbiggrin:

[Mando Knight]

It's 21000+ targets on the ground. You forgot flying monsters.

[Surrealistik]

And the fact that it's actually 131x131 (he forgot the origin square) for a grand total of 1,149,786 (131x131x66+131x131-1), including prones in a 131x131 area, but we get the idea; it's a crapton of dice, and far more than any _sane_ man would ever bring to a table.


Hahaha. I'm not so sure. If I were the host, I would be as giddy as a schoolgirl if I got to see someone legitimately rolling 21,221 dice (to hit). Of course, I'd demand a re-roll (for all of them) if even one was cocked or fell off the table.

But hey - it gives me more time to eat pizza. :smallbiggrin:

I'd agree to that; provided you're the one to gather them all :P.

[tcrudisi]

It's 21000+ targets on the ground. You forgot flying monsters.

You know, I initially cubed it. 130x130x130 ... then after thinking about it for a few seconds, I decided that it wasn't supposed to be cubed. I have no idea how I talked myself out of that.

Also, I left out the origin square intentionally.

[Surrealistik]

You know, I initially cubed it. 130x130x130 ... then after thinking about it for a few seconds, I decided that it wasn't supposed to be cubed. I have no idea how I talked myself out of that.

Also, I left out the origin square intentionally.

Why would you? Cutting out the Z axis I can partially understand since about half of the height is underground, and flying monsters are comparatively rare, but the inclusion of the origin square is essential given its exponential impact on the final numbers.

[evirus]

He may simply have run out of arrows to shoot the rest...

Isn't there a rule somewhere about you needing at least 1 amunition for every target you hit somewhere?

[tcrudisi]

Why would you? Cutting out the Z axis I can partially understand since about half of the height is underground, and flying monsters are comparatively rare, but the inclusion of the origin square is essential given its exponential impact on the final numbers.

My math was just incorrect. I was meaning to subtract the initial square, I just screwed it up. After all: you can't have an enemy in your square except under some very, very specific circumstances.

[Surrealistik]

He may simply have run out of arrows to shoot the rest...

Naw, that's what the Endless Quiver is for! How you'll justify over approximately 1.1 million free actions is another matter entirely (or you can use a Quenchquiver bow)!

[tcrudisi]

Naw, that's what the Endless Quiver is for! How you'll justify over approximately 1.1 million free actions is another matter entirely (or you can use a Quenchquiver bow)!

From PHB1, page 217:
If a power allows you to hit multiple targets, the additional load time is accounted for in the power.

[Surrealistik]

From PHB1, page 217:
If a power allows you to hit multiple targets, the additional load time is accounted for in the power.

True enough, although you'll still need to take advantage of some kind of temporal anomaly.

[evirus]

True enough, although you'll still need to take advantage of some kind of temporal anomaly.

Likely also accounted for in the power... that's why it's a daily. You spend a day looking for a rip in space/time to use your power.

[tcrudisi]

Likely also accounted for in the power... that's why it's a daily. You spend a day looking for a rip in space/time to use your power.

It's actually an encounter power. That's right, ladies and gentlemen, the Ranger can warp time and space once every 5 minutes.

[Surrealistik]

It's actually an encounter power. That's right, ladies and gentlemen, the Ranger can warp time and space once every 5 minutes.

It's what he does, besides making other strikers question their manhood.

[DeltaEmil]

It's okay to do that at level 27. That's where you start owning the world anyway.

[ELC]

The best way to crit-fish?

Well, the best pieces are Raise the Stakes (Rogue daily utility power), Oath of Enimity (Avenger class feature), and, depending on whether you're going for DPR, encounter nova, or daily nova, you have Twin Strike (Ranger at-will attack power), Hurricane of Blades (Barbarian encounter attack power), or Blade Cascade (Ranger daily attack power).

Since Perfect Front and Raise the Stakes are both daily powers, it would be safe to assume that this build would only work for a Daily Nova.

Ideally, it should go like this (assuming Eternal Seeker ED with Glorious Spirit Seeker of Foes for initiation purposes):

Round 1
1: Move: [???]
2: Minor: Raise the Stakes
3: [Ring of Free Time] Minor: Oath of Enimity
4: Standard: Blade Cascade

Chance to crit per attack: 4/20+(16*4)/400 = 36% chance to crit.
Chance to not crit at all after five attacks: <11%
Chance to score only one crit: <31%

[BlckDv]

The best way to crit-fish?

Well, the best pieces are Raise the Stakes (Rogue daily utility power), Oath of Enimity (Avenger class feature), and, depending on whether you're going for DPR, encounter nova, or daily nova, you have Twin Strike (Ranger at-will attack power), Hurricane of Blades (Barbarian encounter attack power), or Blade Cascade (Ranger daily attack power).

Since Perfect Front and Raise the Stakes are both daily powers, it would be safe to assume that this build would only work for a Daily Nova.

Ideally, it should go like this (assuming Eternal Seeker ED with Glorious Spirit Seeker of Foes for initiation purposes):

Round 1
1: Move: [???]
2: Minor: Raise the Stakes
3: [Ring of Free Time] Minor: Oath of Enimity
4: Standard: Blade Cascade

Chance to crit per attack: 4/20+(16*4)/400 = 36% chance to crit.
Chance to not crit at all after five attacks: <11%
Chance to score only one crit: <31%

How are you getting the Oath of Enmity, Raise the Stakes, and Blade Cascade? This would seem to require multiclassing into two separate classes to do, which is not an option for non-Bards unless you are not using the errata and allow the multi-classing background, but that would be houseruling.

[ELC]

How are you getting the Oath of Enmity, Raise the Stakes, and Blade Cascade? This would seem to require multiclassing into two separate classes to do, which is not an option for non-Bards unless you are not using the errata and allow the multi-classing background, but that would be houseruling.

Eh . . . I was unaware of the multiclassing rules at the time of posting that. However, it is entirely possible to do so with just one multiclass feat and an epic destiny.

Formula: Ranger [Class] + Disciple of the Divine Wrath [Avenger MC] + Eternal Seeker [Rogue Raise the Stakes; Barbarian Hurricane of Blades to top it off]

Though, if you're interested, I've seen a Bard build that can get 68 attacks with Raise the Stakes for about 6000 damage ... questionable legality though.

[Yakk]

How are you getting the Oath of Enmity, Raise the Stakes, and Blade Cascade? This would seem to require multiclassing into two separate classes to do, which is not an option for non-Bards unless you are not using the errata and allow the multi-classing background, but that would be houseruling.I did it with a pure-class Avenger once (just the Eternal Seeker epic destiny). It was a pretty cheesy build, but it did crit like crazy.

[hoff]

There are two avenger multi-classing feats that grant Oath of Enmity:

Disciple of Divine Wrath (requires 13 WIS): Gains Religion skill and Oath of Enmity once per encounter until the end of your next turn (so you can make use of it twice)

Hero of Faith (requires 15 WIS): Gain one skill from Avenger list and Oath of Enmity until you hit your target. It also says that you can't switch targets or extend the duration in any way.

My question is Oath of Enmity says that you "regain the use of this power" if your target drops to 0 hit points you regain Oath of Enmity. Does this happen with those multi-class feats? If so only if the oath was still active or if it has already ended (because your "end of your next turn" passed or you hitted your target).

It seems that Disciple of Divine Wrath allows switching targets to me...

[Yakk]

DoDW RAI was probably "you only get 2 turns".

The RAW disagrees with this significantly. RAW, you get a power that says "until the end of your next turn" instead of "end of the encounter", and it remains otherwise unchanged. Which means the recharge clause remains. Which means if you can drop the target before the end of your next turn, the power recharges.

This is an amusing mini-game for strikers (only use it if you can drop it before the end of your next turn).

[hoff]

Why the best version requires 13 WIS and the worse version requires 15 WIS is beyond my compreension. I mean if you use Oath you pretty much guaranteed to hit, so you get one use with Hero of Faith while you can get up to two times with Disciple of Divine Wrath (and maybe even recharge it if you are lucky and if your DM interprets the feat in that way). The only good part of Hero of Faith is the choice between skills...

[ELC]

Why the best version requires 13 WIS and the worse version requires 15 WIS is beyond my compreension. I mean if you use Oath you pretty much guaranteed to hit, so you get one use with Hero of Faith while you can get up to two times with Disciple of Divine Wrath (and maybe even recharge it if you are lucky and if your DM interprets the feat in that way). The only good part of Hero of Faith is the choice between skills...

Originally, Hero's Oath was a lot better than Disciple's Oath. I mean which would you rather have: a rechargeable Oath that lasts until the end of your next turn, or a nonrechargeable Oath that lasts for the entire encounter?

Having said that, they did a horrible job with the errata. It's as though they took a Tarrasque and turned it into a Goblin >_<

[hoff]

I still think that both are pretty unbalanced, they are far too good comparing to other multiclass feats. As a matter of fact the only reasons that I can find for a melee PC not getting them is either to be able to multiclass into something else or not having 13 WIS. Any crit-fishing build that can get this (and isn't an avenger already), should.

[Kurald Galain]

Though, if you're interested, I've seen a Bard build that can get 68 attacks with Raise the Stakes for about 6000 damage ... questionable legality though.
Link please?


I still think that both are pretty unbalanced, they are far too good comparing to other multiclass feats.
Yes; there are a handful good multiclass feats (getting a wizard at-will 1/encounter is also pretty good, for example) and many lacklustre multiclass feats. Hey, nobody said balance was perfect :smalltongue:

[ELC]

Link please?

Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Force Intrusion (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/26218721/The_Big_Bang:_A_Guide_to_Novas&post_num=109#485181921)

I'm actually surprised y'all didn't hear about it already, given the name and all :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

Has the Axe-Juggler (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25140325/Gigantor_the_Axe_Juggler:_Infinite_Damage!?pg=1) been mentioned? There's a lot of multiclassing involved, but you can get some pretty nice stuff from crit-fishing if you focus your ass off for it.

[Mando Knight]

Has the Axe-Juggler (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25140325/Gigantor_the_Axe_Juggler:_Infinite_Damage!?pg=1) been mentioned? There's a lot of multiclassing involved, but you can get some pretty nice stuff from crit-fishing if you focus your ass off for it.

You can boost your critical effects well enough, but boosting your crit range is a little harder. The problem with Gigantor the Axe Juggler, though, is that he's outdated. A good while back, WotC updated the rules to state that you can only make Free Action attacks 1/turn (or was it per-round?) total, and the Axe Juggler's damage output relies on repeated critical hits activating two extra free-action MBAs each... which then are turned into at-will attack powers (TWIN STRIKE!), for even more critical hits.

[MeeposFire]

It is once a turn (though I think it should once a turn per source but oh well). So you could get affected by commander's strike by two different warlords but the same warlord could not do it to you twice in one turn (recent update made the attack of commander's strike a free action).

Oddly rending weapon enchantment and a few other things out there lack the free action so the rending weapon has been unaffected by this rule by RAW.

[Urpriest]

You can boost your critical effects well enough, but boosting your crit range is a little harder. The problem with Gigantor the Axe Juggler, though, is that he's outdated. A good while back, WotC updated the rules to state that you can only make Free Action attacks 1/turn (or was it per-round?) total, and the Axe Juggler's damage output relies on repeated critical hits activating two extra free-action MBAs each... which then are turned into at-will attack powers (TWIN STRIKE!), for even more critical hits.

As I recall, the Axe-Juggler is the one who survived that update intact. Enough of his bonus attacks are No Action, rather than Free Action. It was the encounter and at-will versions that died.

[hoff]

I wanted to raise this topic from the dead to ask if anyone knows a way to exploit Bless Weapon paladin level 2 utility power (adds 1d6 radiant damage, crit with 18-20 against enemies vulnerable to radiant for one encounter).

Right now I'm building an Avenger/Paladin hybrid with that combo and using Power of the Sun (sun domain feat, makes enemy hit by Radiant Vengeance vulnerable to radiant damage until the end of the next turn). You use Bless weapon and Radiant Vengeance in the first round, in the second you oath and use a big avenger power to roll twice (and maybe throw a power point to benefit two times from it).

Using this combo you have 30% to score a crit (two rolls with a 18-20 chance). Also, if you use a radiant power there is the Stone of Light wonderous item (reroll radiant attack that miss) in case you miss your target.

The cool thing about this combo is that it works at level 2, but you need to use (and hit) with radiant Vengeace first. Also bless weapon is daily, I was looking for a way to recharge bless weapon.

[wolvensense]

I'm looking at the power right now.


Edit: Disregard, you're correct. The power card makes no mention, but the text under the Hybrid Ranger and Avenger entries specifies. Worthless build :-/

I know it's an older post, but any chance you know the source of the text that negates the "hybrid Avenger and Ranger," book and page? My DM just approved me using the limited multiclass avenger feat for my Ranger based on my assertions from the cards, but I don't want to be unfair to him.

[Tegu8788]

I suspect they would be in the third players handbook, but what you get as a hybrid and what you get from an MC feat are often very different. Hybrids tend to have exclusive text, whereas multiclassing is more inclusive.

[NecroRebel]

I know it's an older post, but any chance you know the source of the text that negates the "hybrid Avenger and Ranger," book and page? My DM just approved me using the limited multiclass avenger feat for my Ranger based on my assertions from the cards, but I don't want to be unfair to him.

PHB3 pages 140 and 148 specify hybrid avengers' and rangers' respective striker features work only on in-class and class paragon path powers. All of the hybrid versions of the strikers' striker features work only on in-class and class paragon path powers as far as I know. Note that restriction is for hybrids, though, not multiclasses.

Also, this is pretty severe thread necromancy. In the future, just make new threads for this kind of question, or just ask in the simple RAW questions thread.

[Yakk]

My best fisher is a eternal seeker half elf.

Uses the 4-attack barbarian epic power, and power rechargers. If that fails, some 3-hitters and eventually twin strike (which he can use on OAs as a bonus).

Every crit also grants a bonus attack.

One or two minor action attacks and interrupt attacks are also worthwhile.

With a 4 attack barbarian epic power, action point, ready an action, minor action attack, minor action attack, you are almost certainly going to crit on your turn with 6 attacks and probably on your readied action, for a total of 7+5=12 attacks/round on the same target, all of them double-rolls with a 19-20 crit range (or better, if you set it up with the barbarian crit-range boosting rage).

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread necromancy is disfavored on this forum.