IS there other ways to permanently increase an Ability Score?

[Sims]

Some of the other fellers told me that inherent bonus's don't stack. So you can't spam Wish niether.

Other than that 1 point we get at 4th level, is there any other way?

[PersonMan]

Well, apart from the points at 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level you could research a spell that's essentially Wish but gives another bonus(luck, dodge, enhancement or competence, for example) type, or an untyped bonus.

Using all of the other bonus types I can think of at the moment, you'd get up to +30 to an ability score. Of course, you'd burn a lot of XP and 9th level spell slots doing so. It also wouldn't work out with any DM that isn't Mr. YesToEverything, so...

[Eldan]

It's one every four levels actually, so five by level 20.

And wishes do kind off stack. You can cast several, and they do increase the inherent bonus, to a maximum of +5. Another way is buying one of the manuals or tomes, that give you an inherent bonus of +1 to +5.

[Jack_Simth]

Some of the other fellers told me that inherent bonus's don't stack. So you can't spam Wish niether.

Other than that 1 point we get at 4th level, is there any other way?
Permanent increases? Yes. There's Extract Gift on page 92 of Feindish Codex I. It's an enhancement bonus of up to 1/4 of your caster level, and the donor demon's ability modifier must be at least twice the bonus - so to get a +8 bonus to Charisma, you'd need a caster level of 32 and you'd need to find a demon with a Charisma modifier of +16....

But it's a permanent spell that fits the criteria.

[Flickerdart]

Artificers (IIRC) can make one kind of bonus a different kind of bonus. So you might have a Headband of Intellect for +6 enhancement to INT, and a Cloak of Some More Intellect that's a +6 luck bonus.

[Runestar]

Some prcs do grant a small stat increase from time to time, such as dragon disciple, fiend-blooded and acolyte of the skin.

[Thurbane]

Some prcs do grant a small stat increase from time to time, such as dragon disciple, fiend-blooded and acolyte of the skin.
Indeed - as well as all of the racial paragon classes in UA.

[Tvtyrant]

You can also get a template that adds stat bonuses such as Half-dragon.

[Thurbane]

Faustian Pacts (FC2, p.23).

[Kylarra]

Artificers (IIRC) can make one kind of bonus a different kind of bonus. So you might have a Headband of Intellect for +6 enhancement to INT, and a Cloak of Some More Intellect that's a +6 luck bonus.It's worth noting that this is highly unlikely to work without the aforementioned DM that is Mr. YesToEverything.

[Alleine]

It's worth noting that this is highly unlikely to work without the aforementioned DM that is Mr. YesToEverything.

The kicker is that it's only temporary. Minutes/level or less IIRC. So good for those occasional quick boosts but nothing permanent.

EDIT: Nevermind, it's 10 mins/lvl. Not bad, but not great.

[Yora]

Permanent increases? Yes. There's Extract Gift on page 92 of Feindish Codex I. It's an enhancement bonus of up to 1/4 of your caster level, and the donor demon's ability modifier must be at least twice the bonus - so to get a +8 bonus to Charisma, you'd need a caster level of 32 and you'd need to find a demon with a Charisma modifier of +16....

But it's a permanent spell that fits the criteria.
However, since it's a spell with the duration of permanent, it can be dispeled.
Also, Foxes Cunning is well within the rnage of spells that could potentionally be made permanent with the permanency spell, but it's wisely not on the standard list for permanent spells. But since enlarge person is, a DM might allow it.

[Alleran]

However, since it's a spell with the duration of permanent, it can be dispeled.
It does, however, have this caveat:

"Once this decision [ability bonus or skill check bonus] is made, it cannot be changed, and the effect cannot be dispelled except by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell."

I tend to interpret that as unless the person attempting the dispel is of higher level (as in character level, not just caster level), no dispel will work.

[Ravens_cry]

If you get to keep the ageing mental stat bonuses when reincarnated, debatable but there are those who have claimed such, repeatedly reaching old age, killing yourslef, and Reincarnating, well, it will add up.

[olentu]

It does, however, have this caveat:

"Once this decision [ability bonus or skill check bonus] is made, it cannot be changed, and the effect cannot be dispelled except by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell."

I tend to interpret that as unless the person attempting the dispel is of higher level (as in character level, not just caster level), no dispel will work.

So level 40 barbarian/level 1 wizard casting from magic item.

[Tyndmyr]

I read that as caster level.

Do classes count? Racial paragon classes, war hulk, dragon disciple, etc.

[Firechanter]

Some of the other fellers told me that inherent bonus's don't stack. So you can't spam Wish niether.

Actually, the description of Wish specifically states that you can increase an ability by up to +5 by casting as many Wishes in immediate succession. Of course that costs a crapload of XP, especially if you first have to scribe some scrolls to make up for having less than 5 9th level spell slots.

That said, it's much more cost-efficient to just buy a Tome or Manual. These also give a +5 Innate bonus, which again means that they don't stack, so if you first bought a +2 tome and later a +5, your total bonus would still be +5. Hence it's smarter to just save up until you can afford the full monty for your primary stat, where for a non-primary stat it can make sense to just buy a +1, for instance to round up an uneven Rolled score.

Typical procedure for maxing out your primary stat is start with at least 16 before racial mods (depending on generation method), pumping in all your level stat increases, then around 20th level buy a tome/manual +5. Of course you'll also have a +6 Enhancement item, so your total top-level score will be at least 32+racial without any further shenanigans.

[LordBlades]

If you get to keep the ageing mental stat bonuses when reincarnated, debatable but there are those who have claimed such, repeatedly reaching old age, killing yourslef, and Reincarnating, well, it will add up.

By RAW they do, though it's kind of stupid.

[Seerow]

By RAW they do, though it's kind of stupid.

Actually logically it makes sense (you get those bonuses as a benefit of a long life experience, which you retain with reincarnation), what is stupid is that old age grants those bonuses at all, since the bonuses from lots of life experience comes from levels. Nevermind the weirdness of old people having better spot/listen checks than someone in their prime...

[Re'ozul]

Nevermind the weirdness of old people having better spot/listen checks than someone in their prime...

Do YOU instinctively know when kids are playing on your lawn?

[YouLostMe]

Actually, the description of Wish specifically states that you can increase an ability by up to +5 by casting as many Wishes in immediate succession. Of course that costs a crapload of XP, especially if you first have to scribe some scrolls to make up for having less than 5 9th level spell slots.

I recommend using planar binding on efreeti--and possibly a thought bottle, if you want to be classy--for those XP problems.

[LordBlades]

Actually logically it makes sense (you get those bonuses as a benefit of a long life experience, which you retain with reincarnation), what is stupid is that old age grants those bonuses at all, since the bonuses from lots of life experience comes from levels. Nevermind the weirdness of old people having better spot/listen checks than someone in their prime...

Why I don't think it makes sense is because of something like this:
An elf that lives as an elf for his all life (let's say 1000 years) and gets +3 to all mental stats as a result of his life experience.
The same elf that lives exactly the same life, except he dies once every 100 years and gets reincarnated as a human every time gets +30 to all mental stats as a result of his life experience.

[Safety Sword]

Do YOU instinctively know when kids are playing on your lawn?

I giggled. I really did...:smallbiggrin:

[Safety Sword]

Why I don't think it makes sense is because of something like this:
An elf that lives as an elf for his all life (let's say 1000 years) and gets +3 to all mental stats as a result of his life experience.
The same elf that lives exactly the same life, except he dies once every 100 years and gets reincarnated as a human every time gets +30 to all mental stats as a result of his life experience.

Humans are 10 times better than elves. We knew that already. :smalltongue:

[Elric VIII]

Why I don't think it makes sense is because of something like this:
An elf that lives as an elf for his all life (let's say 1000 years) and gets +3 to all mental stats as a result of his life experience.
The same elf that lives exactly the same life, except he dies once every 100 years and gets reincarnated as a human every time gets +30 to all mental stats as a result of his life experience.

There must be something going on that allows a human to live for 100 years and gain +3 to all of his stats, then become reincarnated as an elf and live for 1000 to end up with only +6 total. If you look at both possibilities as true, the explaination becomes a function of the specific body.

Maybe the physiological differences in a human/elf brain make one more adept at creating/accessing memories. Iseem to recall something that mentions that humans mature, mentally, much faster than elves as well.

Please Note: I do not condone such cheese, I just understand a possibility for its occurance.

[Coidzor]

The real question is to what level should such be done for a villain that is showcasing this without being, well, death via impossible DC SoD.

[ffone]

If you have LA buyoff, then take a one-level template, buy it off, take another, buy it off...

...one of the reasons the LA buyoff system is structured wrong. (Two +1s are different than a +2, and yet Savage Progressions and Savage Species have racial classes that literally make the other into the one).

[Sarco_Phage]

Maybe the physiological differences in a human/elf brain make one more adept at creating/accessing memories. Iseem to recall something that mentions that humans mature, mentally, much faster than elves as well.

Isn't that implicit in the fact that it takes a human only a fraction of the time to become a wizard that it would take an elf?

The first level is always the hardest to get, quadruply so for elves, apparently.

[Coidzor]

Isn't that implicit in the fact that it takes a human only a fraction of the time to become a wizard that it would take an elf?

The first level is always the hardest to get, quadruply so for elves, apparently.

I have run into the idea that the elves are the makers of the most effective contraceptives in the world before for this reason...

[Thurbane]

I'd say it is because your perception of time is fairly relative to your lifespan. I like this from Terry Pratchett, on mayflies: http://theafricanflyangler.blogspot.com/2010/08/terry-pratchett-on-mayflies.html

[LordBlades]

I'd say it is because your perception of time is fairly relative to your lifespan. I like this from Terry Pratchett, on mayflies: http://theafricanflyangler.blogspot.com/2010/08/terry-pratchett-on-mayflies.html

Logically IMHO it should be related to the lifespan of your mind, not that of your body.

[Serpentine]

If you get to keep the ageing mental stat bonuses when reincarnated, debatable but there are those who have claimed such, repeatedly reaching old age, killing yourslef, and Reincarnating, well, it will add up.You get Reincarnated into a body of equivalent age to your old one. Fix'd!
Is there actually anything in RAW that says your new body is, or can be, of a different age? If not, then surely it's a no-brainer?

edit: Hmmm. Now I envisage a human or similar who's reincarnated as an elf, and who consequently slowly goes insane as he's not psychologically equipped for a millennia-long lifespan...

[Lord_Gareth]

You get Reincarnated into a body of equivalent age to your old one. Fix'd!
Is there actually anything in RAW that says your new body is, or can be, of a different age? If not, then surely it's a no-brainer?

Your new body is a young adult, explicitly.

[Sarco_Phage]

The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.

My god.

They really need to get some editors.

[Serpentine]

So it does. Huh. Then, I guess, you could do that... Might consider houseruling that bit out, myself, though.

[Coidzor]

So it does. Huh. Then, I guess, you could do that... Might consider houseruling that bit out, myself, though.

The bit where it's a young adult body or the bit where it cannibalizes matter in the area?

[Sarco_Phage]

The bit where it's a young adult body or the bit where it cannibalizes matter in the area?

The young adult part, I suppose. The YA body part is WAY too abusable, though it has to be noted that the chance of you becoming, say, a centipede are still extant.

[Thurbane]

Seriously, though, how many campaigns run long enough for a character to die of old age? Not many, I'm guessing...barring Planar Trait shenanigans.

Besides, if you want to live forever, you can be a Warforged anyway...as well as many other methods.

[Lord_Gareth]

Seriously, though, how many campaigns run long enough for a character to die of old age? Not many, I'm guessing...barring Planar Trait shenanigans.

Besides, if you want to live forever, you can be a Warforged anyway...as well as many other methods.

Aye, but it kinda rapes the vermisilitude of the SETTING, y'know?

[Coidzor]

^: I disagree. It allows for, say, a greatly expanded period of time for a druid to be active, or for a druid to enable someone to be a force in this world. But the capacity for something to be abused in a very far-fetched manner in order to gain arbitrarily high ability scores is no reason to let it ruin your enjoyment of the game. Otherwise you'd have quit listening the moment you heard of Pun-Pun. :smallconfused:


The young adult part, I suppose. The YA body part is WAY too abusable, though it has to be noted that the chance of you becoming, say, a centipede are still extant.

A one percent chance combined with whatever chance of one's DM being vindictive, yes.

[Serpentine]

The bit where it's a young adult body or the bit where it cannibalizes matter in the area?The young adult body bit. The other, I'd rule that in most cases there's enough stuff around for the spell to take a tiny bit from everything, with negligible effect on any one thing. So, any people around might be a little anaemic, but nothing a good meal won't fix.

[Sarco_Phage]

I'd actually fluff it as acting like Superman's regeneration in The Dark Knight Returns.

He basically drains the solar energy out of an entire rainforest to restore himself.

So 10 sq. ft./CL of resurrectee would be drained, haha.

[Eldan]

Eh, I don't really see a problem with it. But I'd rule that your mind can only get age bonuses once.

As for the setting... I'd just say that druids reincarnating people left and right would violate their oaths.

[Kylarra]

If you have LA buyoff, then take a one-level template, buy it off, take another, buy it off...

...one of the reasons the LA buyoff system is structured wrong. (Two +1s are different than a +2, and yet Savage Progressions and Savage Species have racial classes that literally make the other into the one).That's only for certain interpretations of LA buyoff. Strict RAW, you'd never get to buy off the second +1 template.

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, I don't really see a problem with it. But I'd rule that your mind can only get age bonuses once.

As for the setting... I'd just say that druids reincarnating people left and right would violate their oaths.
I would use it for a secret cabal of 'immortal' druids who were the "well intentioned extremest" villains of the campaign.

[Urpriest]

It's worth noting that this is highly unlikely to work without the aforementioned DM that is Mr. YesToEverything.

Have you seen any of the other threads Sims posts? His DM is pretty much the incarnation of Mr. YesToEverything. I mean, that's probably the name his parents gave him.

[Ravens_cry]

Wow, the parents gave him his own last name? Poor kid.:smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

The young adult body bit. The other, I'd rule that in most cases there's enough stuff around for the spell to take a tiny bit from everything, with negligible effect on any one thing. So, any people around might be a little anaemic, but nothing a good meal won't fix.

Aww, but then you lose the chance for a really graphic description of the spell when they just cast it directly on the body of the deceased... :smallfrown:

[Tyndmyr]

Aww, but then you lose the chance for a really graphic description of the spell when they just cast it directly on the body of the deceased... :smallfrown:

Reincarnation doesn't specify sex as a retained quality.

Reincarnation: Now with 100% more squick.

[Grendus]

Saphs campaign journals had a lot of that. But then, their DM had a very (very) high mortality rate so, on the offchance you survived, you were never really sure what species, or even what sex, you would be.

[Newt]

I'd actually fluff it as acting like Superman's regeneration in The Dark Knight Returns.

He basically drains the solar energy out of an entire rainforest to restore himself.

So 10 sq. ft./CL of resurrectee would be drained, haha.

Dark Sun ftw!!

That and your sig takes you back up to normal. Mayhaps you're not annoying, simply.. Misunderstood. :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

The solution is to use the old tables, back when you were lucky to end up as any sort of humanoid.

[Necroticplague]

The solution is to use the old tables, back when you were lucky to end up as any sort of humanoid.

They take wild spell and go on their merry way casting reincarnate until they are a humanoid, racking up bonuses along the way.

[Kyrinthic]

It's worth noting that this is highly unlikely to work without the aforementioned DM that is Mr. YesToEverything.

Actually, any decent GM should allow that.
The infusion that does that has a duration, so you would be carrying around a couple of +int items that dont stack most of the time.
Its basically the whole point of the infusion.

-Kyrinthic

[tonberrian]

Reincarnation doesn't specify sex as a retained quality.

Reincarnation: Now with 100% more squick.

Intensified Reincarnate returns two different bodies.

Think about it.

[Flickerdart]

Intensified Reincarnate returns two different bodies.

Think about it.
Nope. The body count is not a variable effect.


They take wild spell and go on their merry way casting reincarnate until they are a humanoid, racking up bonuses along the way.
Wrong. Natural Spell only works while in a Wild Shape. Granted, you could walk around wild shaped all the time, but that still rules out everyone who's not a Druid doing this.

[tonberrian]

Nope. The body count is not a variable effect.

Don' you go bringin' yer fancy math'matics into this. Intensified brings the d100 result up to 200. What this actually means is open to interpretation. I go with "get reincarnated twice", because that means Intensified Reincarnate goes "boink".

[Glimbur]

Intensified Reincarnate returns two different bodies.

Think about it.

The real money is in metamagic on Awaken. Maximize, Empower, Intensify, etc. Herd of cattle? More like a herd of wizards just waiting to be set free.

[Ravens_cry]

Don' you go bringin' yer fancy math'matics into this. Intensified brings the d100 result up to 200. What this actually means is open to interpretation. I go with "get reincarnated twice", because that means Intensified Reincarnate goes "boink".
If you have a healthy relationship with your DM, or like playing weird things, maximise Reincarnate sounds like fun. DM's choice, all the time, every time. Besides, you're a druid, you know you're dying to yell out "MAXIMISE!" at any and every opportunity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_Wars:_Transformers).

[Serpentine]

Aww, but then you lose the chance for a really graphic description of the spell when they just cast it directly on the body of the deceased... :smallfrown:Eeeeeeeeeeeeeew.
...
I'd allow that.
The solution is to use the old tables, back when you were lucky to end up as any sort of humanoid.I have custom tables, which includes a higher chance of ending up the same race and/or sex... or a troglodyte.

[Kylarra]

Actually, any decent GM should allow that.
The infusion that does that has a duration, so you would be carrying around a couple of +int items that dont stack most of the time.
Its basically the whole point of the infusion.

-KyrinthicYes the temporary duration was already pointed out, thanks. My response was based on a reading that the effect would be permanent, as is occasionally suggested for crafted items on these forums.

[Maeshin]

Epic items (see Epic Levels Handbook)
I recall some artifact elixirs being mentioned in one of the Faerun books. Shining South, maybe? Waterdeep?
Epic feats (Improved STR/Improved DEX/etc.)
Templates (ie: Vampire)
Picking races with high bonuses (ie: Succubus)

[Thurbane]

If allowed as a PC race, an Empty Vessel with the Draconic Creature template gets Dex +2 Con +2 Int +2 Wis +4 Cha +6, for LA +2. If you can use level buyoff, not half bad.

[Alleran]

Epic items (see Epic Levels Handbook)
I recall some artifact elixirs being mentioned in one of the Faerun books. Shining South, maybe? Waterdeep?
Epic feats (Improved STR/Improved DEX/etc.)
Templates (ie: Vampire)
Picking races with high bonuses (ie: Succubus)
Shining South has the Halruuan Elixir, but it is very likely to end badly for your character - I wouldn't recommend it.

There were, however, Soul Elixirs in an issue of Dragon. Minor Artifacts all. Each one gave a +1 bonus to an ability score, as well as there being one that provided a +1 bonus to all ability scores, and one that added a permanent +10 to your maximum HP.